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Posted: 7/17/2002 1:02:27 PM EDT
In reference to Jarhead_22's thread about "Al-Qaeda Intel Report" [url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=133200[/url] I did not want to hijack a great thread so I started this one. I have a question for the LEO's out there. Lawyers opinions are welcome as well. A scenario : Its rush hour in Dallas and a group of terrorist are in cars and open fire on civilians. I come up on the scene and have my AR in the trunk with at least 300 rounds in loaded mags. I lock and load and start killing the terrorist and save lives way before you guys can get there. You show up and there are still terrorists' left to be killed. Here are my questions for you. 1. Are you glad to see me ? 2. Will you shoot me in the back since you are confused and don't know what's going on ? 3. Will you stand beside me and kill the rest of them off with me and other civilians who have joined the fray ? 4. Will you arrest me after it is all over ? 5. What will you do about it ? 6. You have only hand guns with you, I have an extra AR in the trunk, Do you ask if you can use it ? Second scenario : You have pulled over a car full of terrorist. They surprise you and a gun battle starts. There are 4 of them and they have you pinned down. Luckily you don't get shot right away. I or any other prepared civilian comes upon you. Do you welcome my help since I am prepared ? Third scenario : I have interrupted a group of Islamic extremist and stopped them from entering a elementary school. A gun battle is in progress. What do you do to me when you get there. 1. Do you shoot me since you have not evaluated the threat properly. 2. Do you join me in the fight ? 3. Do you take my weapon and use it for yourself and handcuff me ? What does your department think about the help from the civilian community ? What are your thoughts about civilian patrols ? I may be stupid and lack proper training but I'm not afraid of a fight and I'm not worried about stray bullets![8D] |
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With the training today's leo get's, IMO you would be shot [friendly fire]. If you don't have the uniform on you would be considered against them. Having been with 2 department's in different state's I feel I can post to this thread.
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Uniformed LEOs generally look to the uniform to determine which team the players are on. If you ain't on the scorecard you would run the risk of being mistaken for a member of the other team. Same would go for non-uniformed LEOs who are unknow to the LEOs on scene. Do what you think is right but be prepared for the consequences if something goes wrong.
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Quoted: With the training today's leo get's, IMO you would be shot [friendly fire]. If you don't have the uniform on you would be considered against them. Having been with 2 department's in different state's I feel I can post to this thread. View Quote I agree. I don't have the experience that BeauBeaux has, but I think you would be at severe risk of being shot. How would they know that you didn't pose a threat? Once the LEO's get there, it's time for the civy's to put away thier weapons, unfortunately. [V] |
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Quoted: With the training today's leo get's, IMO you would be shot [friendly fire]. If you don't have the uniform on you would be considered against them. Having been with 2 department's in different state's I feel I can post to this thread. View Quote Remember kids. Friendly Fire, isn't. [x] |
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Maybe you should do what I suggested earlier and join the reserves and keep some part of your uniform with you that would identify you as a friendly. You're still at great risk, but it may decrease your odds a little of being shot by (un)friendly fire.
Hey LEO's: Is there such a thing as a reserve police officer? |
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You are posing all sorts of tough questions here.
I can say personally no one is getting shot in the back until I figure out what the hell is going on. That may or may not be easy to do. If challeneged it is wise to back down, this goes for LEO challenging the identity of other LEOs as well. I may figure you are plainclothes or off duty and hopefully I can see who the bad guys are. It's not always easy to figure that out and that's why you see LEOs shoot each other off duty. If I can sort things out I am gonna need your help and welcome it. I cannot think of any LEO who, in a trouble spot, would not welcome help. Many agencies around here are plainclothes and I have been able to both be assisted and be of assistance to LEOs on and off duty. In scenario one, I can only assume the Tangos are killing everything they can and you are trying to eliminate them. Since I will take the time I can to see WTF is going on, hopefully I ID you as an ally and you can assist as needed. If you offer a second AR I will say no thanks, give it to my partner as I will have mine out already [:d] In #2, I will welcome the help. Gladly. In #3, If you are shooting at me, you will get shot, I assume that the Tangos are shooting at me also and you are not. IF there are enough LEOs arriving you may be ordered to cease and you may be handcuffed until things are sorted out. It is not uncommon to search and restrain all victims after such an event to assure no Tangos get away. Not everyone will agree and BeauBeaux is right that different agencies are trained to different standards. Let's just hope that it never happens and if it does the LEOs are able to ID you are a ally. |
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Also remember that a uniform can be easily faked. Guard yourself and your family. Take out targets of opportunity. But when the (real) cops get there, either stay down or try to make yourself known to them. Don't ask me how, since I've never been in a situation remotely close to this. I simply think it makes sense. |
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Quoted: Maybe you should do what I suggested earlier and join the reserves and keep some part of your uniform with you that would identify you as a friendly. You're still at great risk, but it may decrease your odds a little of being shot by (un)friendly fire. Hey LEO's: Is there such a thing as a reserve police officer? View Quote Yes many agencies have reserve officers and part time guys. Being able to put on a raid jacket or body armor with Police on it would be a great help. |
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I'll have to think more about this but my first impression is that in scenario 1, 2, and 3 you're dead.
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Too many of these kind of scenarios focus on guns and shootouts. The least likely situation.
While terrorists use guns, they're far more likely to use a method with less risk. They know people here have guns and shoot back. A far more likely situation would be a bombing, gas attack, or some other HAZMAT type of scenario. This ensures maximum results and the least danger to their own hides. Your AR isn't going to be of much good. Packing a gas mask and maybe a shovel, fire extinguishers or rescue equipment would be a better idea. When there are 3,000 victims and 15 responders, help is always appreciated. |
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Man, I can feel the heat from the flames already! I am a Patrol Sgt., firearms instructor and graduate of multiple SWAT schools, Thunder Ranch, etc. I would answer your scenarios in the following way:
You have to understand that responding police officers do not know who you are. A call of an active shooter spraying a crowd would not be the place to be standing with your AR when responding officers arrive. If that scenario were unfolding in front of you and you had to intervene and stop the terrorists, obviously ALL AMERICANS would welcome your assistance, not just the police, but what comes along with that is the discipline on your part to immediately drop your weapons on site of the first officer and put your hands in the air and expect to be handcuffed. That is not the time or place for an argument, with you trying to convince the officers that you are a "good guy". Believe me, the last thing in the world we would want in that situation would be to fire on one of our own (you). Next, as far as the police allowing you to fight "side by side", this is unrealistic. In a raging protracted gunfight, it would be a matter of time before someones perception is that fire that hit near them came from you (no uniform or official "good guy" markings), whether it really did or not and would return fire at you. (Beaux Beaux's friendly fire) I understand your point, but we also have no way to know your training, etc, and no police dept. or city wants the liability of accounting for everyone and everything that you hit. Now, I'm not saying I think this is the ideal situation, because there's lots of incidents where armed citizens saves the day. (Once, I made a warrant arrest on a traffic stop and removed a loaded .22 rifle that he had been trying to get to from under the seat of his truck when I made my second approach. When I was about to clear the stop, I heard "everything alright, officer?" come from the darkness and saw a local resident step out from some trees in his yard and said "cause I had your back if that guy tried anything" and held up a shotgun that he had brought out of his house. Was I surprised, yes. Glad, sorta. Angry, no, of course not. I did tell him to let me know he was there next time, but overrall, I felt good about it. I suggest this: read up on your local laws concerning concealed carry, self defense, use of force when making a citizen's arrest, and get with your local P.D. guys that you know and see what they would want you to do specific to that area. Hope this helps. |
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I think you would be disarmed & cuffed until later...or shot mistakenly as one of the terrorists.
Most cops would probably think you were a Tango...depends alot on the cop & his/her training. Now in my case, I'm a civi & if I were in your shoes, in a scenario like that, I'd be shot dead without a second thought...even if I had Old Glory wrapped around me...since I "look like a terrorist", ie. non-white, darker skinned, foreign looking, etc. Ya takes yer shots & ya takes yer chances. |
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I think you would most likely be shot and added to the tally of "terrorist" in the attack. Unfortunately..........[:(]
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Quoted: Quoted: Maybe you should do what I suggested earlier and join the reserves and keep some part of your uniform with you that would identify you as a friendly. You're still at great risk, but it may decrease your odds a little of being shot by (un)friendly fire. Hey LEO's: Is there such a thing as a reserve police officer? View Quote Yes many agencies have reserve officers and part time guys. Being able to put on a raid jacket or body armor with Police on it would be a great help. View Quote Thanks LE6920! I'll check into it with my local police dept. |
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Not to hijack this thread, but I have a couple of questions that may amplify what ilikelegs is asking. My apologies to 'legs if any offense is taken.
1.How many of us non-LEO's are especially aware of the situation surrounding a traffic stop when we pass one on the street or the highway? Do you look for signs of trouble or a struggle where one LEO may be overwhelmed. (Much like the deputy in Texas that was wrestled to the ground, his weapon taken, and killed by three illegal aliens that were running drugs at a traffic stop). 2. If a situation warranted, how and to what extent would you respond? What specific situation would cause you to intervene? |
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ilikelegs,
I'm in Dallas as well. If we can take the terrorist out before the Cops get there, I'll split the spoils with you. I could use a new AK and a pair of sandals.[:D] |
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ok, for all you people talking about civilains wearing some kind of uniform that tells them you're a friendly..
just what are the odds that they are going to be wearing it right when the thing starts??? Hmm??/ Maybe you have it with you in your car.. you really wanna take the time to change clothes in a gun fight? Please.. come on now!!! |
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Quoted: You are posing all sorts of tough questions here. I can say personally no one is getting shot in the back until I figure out what the hell is going on. That may or may not be easy to do. If challeneged it is wise to back down, this goes for LEO challenging the identity of other LEOs as well. View Quote Thats good to know. I may figure you are plainclothes or off duty and hopefully I can see who the bad guys are. It's not always easy to figure that out and that's why you see LEOs shoot each other off duty. If I can sort things out I am gonna need your help and welcome it. I cannot think of any LEO who, in a trouble spot, would not welcome help. View Quote Thats what I wanted to hear. Im glad some of welcome the help. I fully understand at this point though I could be mistaken for a "Tango" ? / terrorist. But I would rather be shot by a cop fighting the Islamics than by the Islamics themselves. In scenario one, I can only assume the Tangos are killing everything they can and you are trying to eliminate them. Since I will take the time I can to see WTF is going on, hopefully I ID you as an ally and you can assist as needed. If you offer a second AR I will say no thanks, give it to my partner as I will have mine out already [:d] View Quote I didn't think it was standard issue for all cops to carry around AR's with them. Maybe it depends on the department ? In #2, I will welcome the help. Gladly. View Quote COOL [8D] In #3, If you are shooting at me, you will get shot, View Quote I wouldn't dream of it !!! IF there are enough LEOs arriving you may be ordered to cease and you may be handcuffed until things are sorted out. It is not uncommon to search and restrain all victims after such an event to assure no Tangos get away. View Quote I can understand that. Let's just hope that it never happens and if it does the LEOs are able to ID you are a ally. View Quote What do you suggest is the best way to be properly identified ? Thanks |
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First you don't go running in to save anyone..Unless you have no choice. Seek and take cover. Chose your targets by you running in and being John Wayne proves nothing. It will get you shot by friendly or unfriendly fire.
You seek cover try to get the attention of the officer, don't count on it he might be very busy. You seek that cover because when you call to him or shoot over him the tendency is to return fire in that direction. Once you get their attention you move in staying low and searching for cover before you move. If you live through it your gun will be taken to check for rounds fired. Do not expect it back real soon also. Chances are your going to be shot in any of the 31 and 2 your maybe shot. In 3 for sure these guys ain't going to give you a chance to stop them. |
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One reason why I keep a kevlar helmet, no cover, with my car gun. Toss it on in 2 seconds and you are much more likely to be seen as a friendly who was in civilian clothes when he responded.... or at least give em enough doubt to check before shooting.
I have been carrying one of my chiken plate body armor sets with me too, it would help. Its not illegal to own a shirt that says POLICE, SHERRIF, or even SECURITY in big letters, and I would rather have some idiot write me up for impersination after the fact than end up dead..... just don't get one that says ATF!!! |
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Quoted: Man, I can feel the heat from the flames already! View Quote This is not ment to be a cop bashing thread what so ever. Just looking for realistic and truthful answers. You have to understand that responding police officers do not know who you are. A call of an active shooter spraying a crowd would not be the place to be standing with your AR when responding officers arrive. If that scenario were unfolding in front of you and you had to intervene and stop the terrorists, obviously ALL AMERICANS would welcome your assistance, not just the police, but what comes along with that is the discipline on your part to immediately drop your weapons on site of the first officer and put your hands in the air and expect to be handcuffed. That is not the time or place for an argument, with you trying to convince the officers that you are a "good guy". Believe me, the last thing in the world we would want in that situation would be to fire on one of our own (you). View Quote I wouldn't think I would be fired on intentionally, just wanted to know how you guys discern a situation and how quick your able to come to a conclusion. Next, as far as the police allowing you to fight "side by side", this is unrealistic. View Quote I'm dreaming, I know, but a lot of us consider fighting the enemy our dream come true... I suggest this: read up on your local laws concerning concealed carry, self defense, use of force when making a citizen's arrest, and get with your local P.D. guys that you know and see what they would want you to do specific to that area. Hope this helps. View Quote Thanks again ! |
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Quoted: Not to hijack this thread, but I have a couple of questions that may amplify what ilikelegs is asking. My apologies to 'legs if any offense is taken. 1.How many of us non-LEO's are especially aware of the situation surrounding a traffic stop when we pass one on the street or the highway? Do you look for signs of trouble or a struggle where one LEO may be overwhelmed. (Much like the deputy in Texas that was wrestled to the ground, his weapon taken, and killed by three illegal aliens that were running drugs at a traffic stop). 2. If a situation warranted, how and to what extent would you respond? What specific situation would cause you to intervene? View Quote Maybe I am the exception, but I do check the situation for possible trouble. Especially a lone officer at night. Too many routine traffic stops have gone bad. |
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Quoted: ilikelegs, I'm in Dallas as well. If we can take the terrorist out before the Cops get there, I'll split the spoils with you. I could use a new AK and a pair of sandals.[:D] View Quote Ok, but if there is only one full auto AK, I get dibs on it first! You can keep all the sandals.[:D] |
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Quoted: First you don't go running in to save anyone..Unless you have no choice. Seek and take cover. View Quote Im just not that kind of armchair warrior. I would feel compeled to do something. |
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Answers;
Scenerio 1; 1. If we don't end up shooting each other, yes I'm glad to see you. 2. If you can't very quickly and convincingly establish that you are a friendly, there is a chance that I may shoot you in the back, front or any place I can. 3. I will stand beside you and fight them until they are dead or surrender. Wanna help me with the paper work? 4. You will be questioned as a material witness. 5. That's probably going to be up to a Grand Jury like any other fatal self defense situation. 6. Yes, pretty please with sugar on top. Scenario 2; Does the Pope shit in the woods? Is a bear Catholic? Never mind, the answer is yes. Please lend a hand. Scenario 3; 1. See answer 1 in Scenario 1 2. See answer 3 in scenario 1 3. I'll take your weapon if I see that you can't shoot worth a shit or if your killed. We/I value the assistance of the public when it is genuinely needed. Some folks just don't know when to mind there own business. An officer in a life or death fight would welcome a little help from the good citizens that he serves. Civilian patrols are fine with me but they usually are emotionally motivated by unusual events. Participation/interest fades quickly as people prefer to get on with their daily routines. Maybe you should try to get a part time job as a cop or reserve Deputy Sheriff. Then at least you would have some sort of I.D and knowledge of what we expect to see from friendlies in situations like you have presented. |
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in all three scenarios, if the cops dont drop you outright with a double tap, they will probally spank you on the butt, tell you to stop playing rambo and get the f@%# out of their way so the grown-ups can do their job. after all, would you really want a cop coming to your work trying to help you? didn't think so. leave the action hero stuff to the professionals.
-jay |
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Quoted: What do you suggest is the best way to be properly identified ? Thanks View Quote Get a cheapo $10 plastic mesh ballcap at your local minimart that has "SWAT" written on ir in white letters. Keep it next to you AR in the car. If SHTF, put it on BACKWARDS!!! LEO's that are en-route will see your back/SWAT on the ballcap. |
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If you find yourself inside a hostage situation and you are armed the terrorists are going to kill you. End of story. You might take a few of them with you.
If you find yourself in situations 1,2,3 just vacate the area and call the police. If you find yourself in your own home and are invaded then by all means defend your life and property. If you find yourself unarmed in a hostage situation just pray to God Almighty. The truth of the matter is, in a terrorist attack and you happen to be in the wrong spot and this turns out to be the worst day of your life then you are dead. Sorry nothing can be done about it... Chances are the terrorists won't live either but you dead just the same.. It sucks but I think that is realistic. You don't have a chance unless you see them comming and/or you are in your own home.. That is the only two possible scenario's where your life can be either saved, By running away , or you can defend it from your house. That may be harsh but thats the way it is.. Now if open warfare results and civilians are allowed to help portect America then you will have more latitude.. But that isn't going to happen.. So for me the rules look like this: 1: Escape and evade if possible, calling LEO. 2: If trapped Pray to God and hope I live through it. 3: die from gunshot to back of head by some fucking cowardly camel jockey. That is all the recourse we as Americans have at this moment. Sorry. That is what your options are. That is why you have to keep your eyes open. Ben |
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The helmet is a good idea..I have a vest I have a badge I have a gun..I still would watch my ass going to help another MOS in need. I am telling you I was taught chose your cover even against friendly fire. Identify yourself before anything.
This cop or cop's are going to have their hands full. Others coming in will not know either. The only thing in your favor is the side your firing from. Unless they are almost surrounded you will be seen has friendly fire. |
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Quoted: Not to hijack this thread, but I have a couple of questions that may amplify what ilikelegs is asking. My apologies to 'legs if any offense is taken. View Quote Never offended by good discussion. 1.How many of us non-LEO's are especially aware of the situation surrounding a traffic stop when we pass one on the street or the highway? Do you look for signs of trouble or a struggle where one LEO may be overwhelmed. (Much like the deputy in Texas that was wrestled to the ground, his weapon taken, and killed by three illegal aliens that were running drugs at a traffic stop). View Quote I'd have to notice pretty quick since my rate of speed determines how much I see. 2. If a situation warranted, how and to what extent would you respond? What specific situation would cause you to intervene? View Quote If I saw them wrestling the cop I would pull over pronto with my gun out. If in that split second they took his gun I hope I would be fast enough to shoot them. I hope! |
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Quoted: in all three scenarios, if the cops dont drop you outright with a double tap, they will probally spank you on the butt, tell you to stop playing rambo and get the f@%# out of their way so the grown-ups can do their job. after all, would you really want a cop coming to your work trying to help you? didn't think so. leave the action hero stuff to the professionals. -jay View Quote You're welcome. If you're ever getting your ass kicked along the road, I fear you won't have much time for spanking. I'm sure a "grown-up professional" such as yourself has already thought of that. Best wishes. |
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Quoted: Quoted: in all three scenarios, if the cops dont drop you outright with a double tap, they will probally spank you on the butt, tell you to stop playing rambo and get the f@%# out of their way so the grown-ups can do their job. after all, would you really want a cop coming to your work trying to help you? didn't think so. leave the action hero stuff to the professionals. -jay View Quote You're welcome. If you're ever getting your ass kicked along the road, I fear you won't have much time for spanking. I'm sure a "grown-up professional" such as yourself has already thought of that. Best wishes. View Quote Lets see, apollojay needs to be reminded of Charles Whitman: The Texas Tower Sniper. Cops hand only hand guns, locals had hunting rifles. Most of you LEO's only have hand guns while on patrol. Im sure if you were in need "Jay", you'd be glad to see one of us. Your pride may not allow you to show it, but deep inside I think you would be thankful. |
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i did not mean to imply that i was a grown up professional. what i did mean was that law enforcement has a job to do, so let them do it. the last thing they need when all hell is breaking loose, is to worry about civilians running around with their black rifle think9ing they are saving the world. if you do want to be in that position, become a cop or joion the military. just having a few weapons and a bunch of ammo at your disposal does not qualify someone for hero status. i dont mean to come off like a prick, i just feel the cops should be left to do their jobs. that is what they are trained for, not those on the way to the range with a bug-out bag and an AR in the trunk.
-jay |
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You must weigh the risk of being killed against the thought of not intervening.
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my pride allows me to admit a lot. it is because of my pride, that i am willing to admit that if you are in trouble, while i MAY be of assistance, with the proper help at the scene, odds are i would only get in the way. since the majority of us have never been in a firefight, does your pride allow you to admit you might, just might, be more of a hindrance than a help?
-jay |
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Quoted: just don't get one that says ATF!!! View Quote or you will definately be shot!!!! |
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Quoted: since the majority of us have never been in a firefight, does your pride allow you to admit you might, just might, be more of a hindrance than a help? -jay View Quote Nope. If I was a hinderance I would get my ass out of the way. But I would be shooting or doing what I could until You guys showed up. |
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I think a good question is, how do I identify myself to the LEO I'm on his side?
For right now, the only thing I know to say is, if any of you come upon one of those situations and you see a guy in a top hat, grey shirt, and black BDU pants popping off rounds from an AR...IT"S ME! DON'T SHOOT![:D] |
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Appears some folks are not reading the complete thread ... tisk tisk.
in all three scenarios, if the cops dont drop you outright with a double tap, they will probally spank you on the butt, tell you to stop playing rambo and get the f@%# out of their way so the grown-ups can do their job. View Quote In scenario 1 the whole point is innocent people - Civilians - of which I am one ... are rapidly being disposed of by a bunch of wacko terrorists who are pissed because they got caught in rush hour traffic. Personally I'd swing my truck such that my engine formed cover and I'd grab the AR and start squeezing off shots. I'm completely confident that some other upstanding citizen will not be armed with more than a cellphone thus calling the local authorities for me (not to name names, but this guy is probably a liberal democrat). In scenario 2, the LEO is pinned down with little hope to escape without backup. If the situation was right I'm backup. Even if I can only get the guys in the car to hit the deck and get the LEO back in the fight that's a big step in the right direction. I can't imagine an LEO refusing my help in such a situation. Scenario 3 is more difficult since the citizen in question may be acting without definitive proof of what the obeserved group of Islamic's are really up to. Shot's would have to have been fired. The likelihood that I'm close enough to my vehicle to get the "car gun" is pretty low. More likely I'm gonna pull my CCW pistol and get some cover. If I get an opportunity for a good shot without bring too much of the threat down on top of me you can be sure I'm gonna pitch in. I'll agree that in all three scenarios I should clearly announce I'm a good guy to all LEO's I encounter, handle my weapon smartly and professionally and obey all orders from LEO's, including droping my weapon immediately if requested. I'm not looking to get into battle but I'll be damned if I'm gonna stand by and let sheeple or LEO's get killed when I know I can help. My .02 ... Ryan |
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I think a good question is, how do I identify myself to the LEO I'm on his side? View Quote I'm with Sweep, a good method of ident would be a great help. I'd go as far as being issued some sort of citizen's badge with each CCW. Like the wallet type badges that hang from the belt. The SWAT hat isn't a bad idea either. Ryan |
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i am sorry if i did not read the entire thread clearly. i guess i just saw it's title and jumped to conclusions. i love this webpage first and foremost. to be honest, it is how i get 99% of my info on what is going on in the world. i am known as the ar15.com guy at work because i am always referring to something i learned on here, gun related or not. it just seems everytime i log on, there is always a new SHTF topic. what is the best rifle, pistol combo for SHTF, the contents of your bugout bag for SHTF, how t ofight off the BATF when they come for my 10/22 and .38 when SHTF, how i will restore prosperity and democracy singlehandedly when the SHTF...etc. it seems everyone who owns a rifle and is a fairly accurate shot has a script to RED DAWN tucked under their arm and therefore thinks that when and if the SHTF they will be the last man standing. not one post has ever said " you know what, i will probally get plugged real quick!" most of us would, myself included. so to wrap this up, sorry if i jumped to conclusions and didnot understand the entire thread in my rantings. just getting tired of the SHTF threads and for some reason i snapped. sorry.
-jay |
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Hey guys, I am a SWAT Sniper and have been so for 13 years. Many of you guys make good points on this thread.
History teaches that during the Texas Tower incident in Austin, civilians with their deer rifles shot right next to the outgunned cops and kept Whitman pinned down and occupied 'til the street cops could get up there and whack the fucker. The Austin Chief said the fire was a "Godsend". Thus, the SWAT Sniper was born. Not always ANOTHER cop around when you need one. Be glad to have you as long as it's really needed and you're not some kinda fucking squirrel that does more harm than good. Just be sure you don't look or act like a bad guy. Watch your sixes fellas |
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Scenario one:
Make yourself known, and carry on. Scenario two: See scenario one. Scenario three: Make yourself known, or suffer the consequences, and then carry on. That about covers this topic. Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img] |
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Quoted: [b]Hey guys, I am a SWAT Sniper and have been so for 13 years. Many of you guys make good points on this thread. History teaches that during the Texas Tower incident in Austin, civilians with their deer rifles shot right next to the outgunned cops and kept Whitman pinned down and occupied 'til the street cops could get up there and whack the fucker. The Austin Chief said the fire was a "Godsend". Thus, the SWAT Sniper was born. Not always ANOTHER cop around when you need one. Be glad to have you as long as it's really needed and you're not some kinda fucking squirrel that does more harm than good. Just be sure you don't look or act like a bad guy. Watch your sixes fellas[/b] View Quote Goddamn man, you are my newest hero. Thanks for telling it straight and having a realistic attitude. Everyone please read his words, and those of AZCOP, as you are the type of LEO's who give the rest a [b]good[/b] name here. apollojay, feel free to [u]n-o-t c-l-i-c-k[/u] on the SHTF threads. It sounds as though you've read every single one four times, and then proceed to bitch about them. "Just Say 'NO!'"--Nancy Reagan. Edit: Just had to say "whack the fucker" again. LMAO You have my everlasting respect!! |
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I gave a heads up in the Brothers of the shield
forum. Here is a post from Dave_G. I don't think he truely understood what my point was. Quoted: legs, You watch too many movies. Your "Terrorist attack / SHTF scenarios" are fantasies best left in your imagination. If you want to be a hero, enlist in the military or go into law enforcement. View Quote Here is my reply to him... Quoted: Quoted: legs, You watch too many movies. Your "Terrorist attack / SHTF scenarios" are fantasies best left in your imagination. If you want to be a hero, enlist in the military or go into law enforcement. View Quote Well this thread was started in response to a thread Jarhead_22 made. Go read it first then slam me. And do it in my other thread. Many of your fellow LEO's understand what I am getting at. and I will refer you to an example of "Charles Whitman: The Texas Tower Sniper". The story. You guys only carry and have hand guns. Locals had deer rifles. If it was for the local community, who knows how long or how many more people would have died. My point of the thread was that people are at the scene way before you guys. And some of us are, well, very well armed. We can help until you get there. This was not a cop bashing thread. In fact I was exploring a way to help out. Did you read the thread I posted, and did you read the thread Jarhead_22 posted ? Go read them and then respond. I don't need the government to tell me the "we will protect you/me shit". Some of us are involved in tactical trainnig as well. And as far as the "Terrorist attack / SHTF scenarios" are fantasies best left in your imagination" Who would have dreamed that 9/11 would have happened. And I am not stupid enough to think they are finished. More is yet to come. You guys are the front line of defense. And its not a very good defense right now. What you have to deal with today you guys do a good job of. But you have no way of dealing with a large scale terrorist attack here. Urban riots are nothing compared to suicide bombers like in Israel. The military does, hopefully!!! Just remember some of us are willing to put our own lives on the line to help you out someday. View Quote |
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Here is one from bountyhunter
Quoted: The SHTF thing was a bit much, can you offer to help a street cop, well sometimes yes sometimes no, it boils down to they do not know who they can trust. And it's hard to make a call in 1-2 seconds just by looking at a guy, but sometimes in some locals asking is appreciated, I remember one time about 0600 hrs. I stopped three guys , they had stolen a car , crashed into a county bridge , and all had warrants out on them, A farmer saw me with three guys spread eagled and stopped and asked if I needed help, now this guy "WAS A FARMER" I could tell, he also had a gun rack in truck with a shotgun, I was on a boonie road, it was foggy and back up was a dream. 30 45 min. away, he asked do you need help deputy, I said to myself WTF , yeah, he got out with his shot gun, held it at port arms and those scum bags never had a thought of moving on me, he scared the shit out of them, could this guy have shot me , yeah, did he, no. I do not think that I would have done this later in my career, but at the time it seemed like the thing to do , and worked out ok. Anyway I guess it doesn't hurt to ask, if the Officer is in a pinch , he might say OK, but remember he is busy and may blow you off, and say get the fuc* out of here, do not take it personal if he does, like I said he is busy and he is doing a job that can cost him his life if he makes a wrong decision. COMMENT I also thought of one more thing , right or wrong he had a politically correct firearm, if he had jumped out with an AR 15 I might have said thanks, I got it now, move on. View Quote |
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#1 use cell phone call 911 tell dispatcher you are the guy shooting back at small army with the AR15 and what you are wearing, and you need help
#2 Expect to be arrested even after a shooting in self defense your own home. Till it is sorted out latter. 3# Would I stand with you good question, better hope you called 911 and the good observant dispatcher did not take the day off. If you see me arrive and you think I do not know who you are well put down the gun and take cover till told differntly!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your heart is in the right place, but you are forgetting the main principal of self defense under the law, some states may require you to retreat to the furthest point possible before using deadly force. If you are not part of the local department stay out of the way,unless no other choice and for yours and your families preservation. If you saw an officer in need of assistence and offered you would not be turned away in my town depending on the circuimstances. If you felt you had to act please Refer to #1 Also in all three of your scenarios you could and maybe shot it all depends on the officers training and the fact every officer will make differnt decissions good and bad, so Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Yes you would be arrested till it was all sorted out. These are all though questions. If you are truly interested in a career as a LEO check into the reserves, or part time positions. If the Dallas PD knew who you were you would have a less chance of getting shot by them. |
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Spoke to my wife (who is a cop). She says they trained & currently train for school shootings such that ANYONE in the bldg. who is armed is shot...they are there to end the violence...the questions come later. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time...well, I hope you have good life insurance so your family will be taken care of.
Now, that is for a school shooting...doesn't really apply to your scenarios & every cop & situation will be different. She advises to stay down & NOT have a firearm handy when the cops arrive...you may go home in a body bag...reality bites. |
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I'm not a cop but here's my opinion.
1) Get on your cell phone and call 911. Your intelligence report is more important than your bullets. How many tangos? Where is it taking place? What kind of weapons they got? Any casualities or deaths in the area? What are the tangos wearing? Which way did they ran? What are they doing? What is their getaway vehicle? 2) Dead tangos vs. living tangos Living tangos might be able to give us useful infos. Don't kill them off. They might be able to tell us when and where the next attack is taking place. We need to know who's sponsering these attacks, and where these orders are being sent out. We can also make them give out where their buddies are hiding. 3) If you do have to engage in a shootout to save yourself and others, I would definitely wear anything with an American flag. Make sure its visible from all directions. Maybe a t-shirt, hat, etc.. I'm sure cops would think twice about shooting a patriotic American. I wouldn't recommend you wearing "SWAT" and "POLICE" gear if you are a non-LEO. Impersonating a LEO is not right, if not illegal. But I don't recommend you keep a loaded AR in your vehicle for your own safety as well for safety of others. Have faith in our country, our goverment, our law enforcement and our people. I read Jarhead's article and I got this feeling that they might strike one of the following. 1) hotel 2) convention center 3) football/baseball/basketball stadium 4) public transportation such as train or bus 5) shopping mall 6) amusement park or any point of interest If they are really practicing CQC, they will strike where people are. Recently there was a rumor about cargo ship off of Los Angeles coast loaded with armed Al Qaeda members on board. I heard LEOs conducted search but found nothing. So I won't be suprirsed if these guys infiltrate our land by sea, and conduct surprise attacks. |
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