Okay, as we all know, the majority of the people on this site are crazed gun nut right wing surivalist extremist types who are just waiting for the code word from either Wayne LaPierre or Big Business  to launch the 2nd revolution, so I'm sure many of you have imaginged possible scenarios wherein you might be engaged in some type of guerilla action against an organized, conventional force (our government, the UN, ICC bailiffs, Israeli occupation troops after they've decided that they've got us suckered bad enough they could probably take over our land and thereby solve their problems because we all know how evil they are!, whatever).

The notion that is the most daunting about such a concept (other than the lack of support from the Sheeple such "patriotic brothers in arms" as ourselves would encounter) to me is the amount of technology available to governments, especially surveillance and detection.  

I've seen too many police chases on tv end up with one unarmed helicopter equipped with a FLIR or similar device end the suspect's plans of escape to think that evading a modernly equipped force would be easy.  Yes, Al Qaeda seems to be doing an okay job to some extent, but they're attempting it on the other side of the globe, not in our gov's backyard, and let's not forget that an awful lot of them are getting captured or killed.  

While I might or might not occasionally entertain crazy extremist right wing survivalist militia uprising daydreams during times of poor judgement when I do not correctly censor my thoughts as well as a decent citizen should, I donn't often picture myself as some anti-martyr getting blown apart by an Apache's chaingun because they picked me up on their thermal equipment from so far away and hence so quiet that I was only mildly concerned about their presence on some random night while I take a crap out in the woods.

But seriously, our military must have put some thought into this?  Is there a practicaly way to do it?  I don't know much about them, but I know those aluminum space blankets are supposed to reflect 80% of the body's heat...maybe one of those integrated into a blanket with conventional visual camouflaging on it could serve as some sort of cloak...

Wrong board  [:K]

sgtar15

I just tried to "correctly censor my thoughts as well as a decent citizen should" but the thought that you're a jerk-off troll with bad grammar skills keeps popping back into my head and now I can't get rid of it.

Thanks man. You have to have a sense of humor to be a conservative voter living in California. he he

Use an umbrella.
[:K]

best i can think of is to find a herd of sheeple and try to blend in. my guess is it's nearly impossible to block the IR signature for any length of time.

DuH!

A Nitrogen cooled suit that regulates a constant temperature, much like that which is used by both astronauts and race car drivers... You could set the damn thing for hibernation mode, drop your body temp to 47 degrees, get hypothermia, and stay put for a very long time...  You see, when you crawl around, you are not only creating extra body heat that would show up to sensors, you are disturbing the foliage around you, that acts as your "shield" from visible sightings.  Severe hypothermia ([i]and possible even death[/i]) would greatly prevent this from happening, and you would be safe.

Inside sources say that Chandra Levey had utilized this technique, thus she was able to remain hidden for a year!

Shh, you'll let the secret out.

This is probably not the correct forum to post this to, but being free and all and taking this as a theoretical question.....

It can be done. The first and most expedient way is to eliminate the source. Kill the bird or imaging system. Or, you can try and "bloom" the sensor. May or may not work.

The second is to defeat the technology. A company made something called "Red Out" suits some time ago. These block most of the heat from the body. These are VERY hot depending on the climate. I think thermal blankets would work but are not very tactical. A version of this suit was depicted on the movie "The Saint" a while back.

Thermal is a very good technology to find people. Nevada used this in the 90's to capture an escaped convict in the desert at night. Called in the Guard with Huey's to get him. Of course, he was burning a fire that could be seen for miles....

Issue BDU's are supposed to be somewhat IR resistant.

Can be done but very impractical.

Cover yourself in mud....just like in that cool movie "Predator"....on second thought, never mind...  Jesse Ventura was in that movie and he's not real.

Well, to answer your question, militaries have incorpoated thermal blankets to contain the infra red signature put out by vehicles.  Where you would get these I have no clue.  Also, some ghilie suits are reported to reduce a person's thermal signature when properly utilized.  I have often wondered if wet suits would work as they are designed to trap body heat.  Swimming your way to safety works if you can hold your breath for a long time but one or two concussion grenades and you'll float to the top belly up like a dead fish.  I suppose the best bet would be to strike during the heat of the day and take advantage of thick overhead cover.

You evade thermal by "chillin'."

Chill out, dude.

[}:D]

This is a realistic question.  A buddy of mine just got back from his 2 weeks National Guard training.

He was scouting at night, and got nailed by a helicopter with an infra-red sight.  We consumed several adult beverages trying to figure out how to game the chopper.

Best we could figure out was to "light it up" with a portable radar gun so the chopper would think it was being tracked by radar guided guns/missles.  Try to scare him out of the area.

Would this work? Any other suggestions?

The only way to "cover" yourself from this would be to put the ambiant temp in between you and the device.

Some type heat sheild suit.
I'm sure something like this is being developed.

Or get underground.

Hehe, I used to get chased by Border Patrol agents in choppers using F.L.I.R. systems all the time while I was out snake hunting down along the border.  I can damn near swear they had a Commanche stealth chopper circling us.  The god damn thing was whisper quiet and nearly impossible to spot an outline against the night sky at maybe 50 feet off the deck.  The freaking tail light on the think looked like a star.  Of course, me being me, I leaned out the window and waved[:)].

I'll give you points for trying, but lighting ANYTHING up with radar in a combat zone is nothing short of suicidal.
1.  Modern attack/assault helicopters with thermal systems also have Radar Warning Receivers (RWR) that are a big jump over the old stuff.  Back then, radars would show up as jagged little spikes on a 1.5" circular display.  Not much to go on, other than something's there.  Nowadays, Apaches and some Blackhawks have RWRs that will immediately determine bearing and distance, mark the grid location (long/lat), and classify the target according to the type of radar signal.  Say goodnight.
2.  Or, they could just call in counter-battery fire (Arty) on the suspected ADA or arty site (you).  Either way, you're giving them a huge target, as radar is much more important than one or two human heat signatures.

Take the AT4s or Karl Gustov rockets from the deflated blue helmeted thugs and use those.  Much more effective.  The trick is luring them in for a close kill, which means URBAN settings.  No way you want to stand in the middle of the woods with your dick in your hands.

He's a sniper.  It's his job to stand in the woods with his dick in his hands.

Well, #1 is a very good point but in order to execute #2 they would have to evacuate the area or risk being knocked out by incoming arty rounds.  Personally I think the smart approach for the pilot would be to just knock out the threat with a rocket or chaingun burst.

Might be something to trigger remotely, say from 1K off or so...you can get those little X-band radar blasters for $50 or so.  Might be fun to put some sort of modulation on the carrier just to give the EW folks fits.

"REDRUM!"  "Freddy is the devil!"

#2 is a snap decision.  Do you attempt to engage or get the heck out of Dodge?  Usually, hesitation (or retreat) in the face of an ambush is certain death.  Once the radar's got you, it's got you.  However, if you think you're still outside the engagement range or still have a chance for cover, you can sink down and relay the coordinates for the Arty to take over.

Swedeish company Diab-Barracuda does make a thermal camouflage.

That's just it though.  Modern choppers have all the advantages.  Flying fast and low, using the terrain for cover.  There would really be no reason to evac the area just to call in arty.

Tips on avoiding thermal imaging..
1. Never hang out with anyone cooler than you are...
2. Hang out with people who absorb more heat than you do...
3. Black rifles absorb more heat than gray ones do...

I'm sorry to read that.  I assumed that the number of obvious over the top stereotypes I included would have betrayed the descriptions I made as nothing more than satire of what our critics say of us.

Did you not read the first words of my last paragraph?  "But seriously," ?  Did that not at least suggest that at least some of the preceding text was not serious?

haha...or did I hit a little too close to home?  Perhaps some of you are indeed waiting for the magic code words I suggested.  

Thanks for the serious replies from those of you who tried to be helpful.  This is a question that has been bouncing around in the back of my mind for a while.  

While I am indeed most certainly not (I'm being completely serious right now, in case anyone is having trouble deciding) a crazed blah blah blah gun nut blah blah baby killer blah blah survivalist, I am a person who realizes that current and future technology is going to give agencies who possess it the ability to track down just about anyone they want to.  With all the success that thermal imaging is given in the civillian and military roles, I've seen very little about possible countermeasures.  

It is simple...

(Try before SHTF)

Buy 200 lbs. of dry ice.

break it into small chunks.

Take off all of your clothing.

Hose body down.

STOP! DROP! AND ROLL! in the dry ice.

The pieces will stick you.

Not only will thermal imaging not be able to see you, you will also have created a moving smoke screen.

[b]You can also stick your "tin foil hat" in the freezer for 30 minutes[/b]

Try it and let us know how it goes...

(For novelty use only. If you try this it could/will cause great pain.  Call for a Special trained "SHTF" medic immediatly.)

Not having much knowledge of thermal imaging devices, would this work? Imean if the outside temp. was higher than the bodies temp. would the entire screen be red on the imager?  Or does it really look like the Predator movie with all the different colors and what not??

Thermal imaging works off of the temperature differential of the surrounding environment be measuring the long-wave infrared radiation from the objects.  If all surrounding objects are around 98.6 degF, one should be invisible (not to be confused with the air temperature).  However,  the differential is measured and the "noise" only allows within so many degrees (ie: +/- 10).  The long-wave IR approximateley represents the thermal heat of the object.  Dry ice suits will make you stand out!  They cannot see through GLASS and plexiglass because longwave IR will not pass through, so all they see is the surface of the glass as it radiates.

There's a good article on snipercountry.com.  I think they even have a list of the thermo qualities of certain objects including humans. All depends on what the enviroment your in.

Absolutely no offence meant to FatMan, but this reminds me of the TV commercial for some car rental company (maybe Budget?)

A bunch of employees are sitting around brainstorming in a conference room.

One employee suggests using a radar gun to scare off the helicopter.

The other employees think “I wonder if that would work?”

They then collectively visualize what would happen:  

The radar gun is pointed at the helicopter……the helicopter crew identifies the radar signal.  Suddenly the helicopter hits the area with rockets and chainguns……a second later the area is saturated with an artillery strike…… then a couple of F-16’s swoop in with bombs and napalm.

The employees simultaneously conclude the radar gun is not a very good idea!

Here's how you avoid them 100% of the time:
 1) Don't be an illegal immigrant
 2) Don't try to smuggle goods/illegal shit into the US.
 3) Don't grow marijuana in your house/'business' with huge ass growing lights.

That ought to keep you pretty safe from those nasty thermal imaging systems.
--------------------------------------

Also, the Supreme Court recently ruled (I believe it was a Scalia opinion) that the random use of thermal imaging cams (these were mounted on helicopters and used to sweep neighborhoods) are UNCONSTITUTIONAL.  

As I read this, I imagine a speck of dirt bouncing around inside of a walnut...

This calls for a visual and IR spectrum omnidirectional dual headlight beacon.  IE show 'em your tits.  Well, maybe not yours exactly...

Then, when they set down to find out wtf is going on with the warm bust, get your friend to inquire as to whether they'd be willing to consider giving up the helicopter & associated gear as a tax-deductible donation.

SuperAlpha makes a good point about glass and lexan.   It will be viewed no differently than any other material placed between the target and the FLIR device.   It presents a seperate heat signature that will mask what is behind it, under it, beyond it.

Like others mentioned, most anything with it's own ambient temperature will mask the signature of what is beyond it.    Just don't effect it's heat signature in any way by coming into contact with it.

Having seen footage of targets being tracked by FLIR it's hard to imagine that if you touch something you won't leave some kind of signature, ever see a person leave foot prints through dirt or grass as they run/walk across it and FLIR is watching them?



Basically if you suspect FLIR is in the area, you don't want to be out in the open.   Seek cover fast, seek things that are normally insulators and provide you enough area to hide within so that you won't change the heat signature in the immediate area and "light you up".


Another thing, water actually ain't a bad idea provided you can get under water and stay there for awhile.   Far fetched as it is but if you could get underwater you could/would disappear from FLIR, the amount of heat required to change the temperature of a large body of water is extreme, just getting a few inches under water and being totally submerged should render you completely invisible to FLIR because it will only see the surface of the water.   But problems is where you go from there, surely anyone who knows you went into the water will know you're there and will simply be waiting for you to come out some place(here's where you have to come up with 007 type gadgets like AquaLungs and that sort).    But usually there are other tools in use along with FLIR to track you, often times FLIR isn't the only thing tracking you or if FLIR is fooled/defeated they may switch to visual spectrums of light.

New cool camoflage

[img]http://home.midsouth.rr.com/tduncan1/chilledsniper.jpg[/img]
Best used in close proximity to a outlet.  Extra benefit is you can keep your canteens nice and kewl....

I've been successful at evading thermal
imaging systems on several occasions.
I teach this technique in one of tactical
evasion classes. Although it was not originally
for this application, it does work. Just follow
the link. I trust you guys not to tell anyone else.[;)]
[url]http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html[/url]

Here is a link to the company I mentioned earlier, but I can not find the camo just stuff about sandwich boat hull repair, made with plastics no less!

I swear they make it.

[url]www.marco-marine.com.pl/Diab.htm[/url]

Hey, if you post like a troll you should expect people to treat you like a troll. Bounce that around in the back of your head for a while. [rolleyes]

Yes.
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Imbroglio%2Fbarracuda%2Ejpg[/img]

I have watched day time chases using thermal imaging and when the conditions are right it really distorts the image.  Finding something relatively close to the human body temperature will make the target disappear from the system.  But of course, you will need overhead coverage as well because your pursuers will switch modes of tracking if required.

My guess is that it would be pretty dificult to hide from.You'd have to just stay outta the open or try taking out the platform,unless you were in a real hot climate like Arizona,Florida ect......

I don't know if this is true ,but i was reading an article on weapons caching, where they said it was pretty pointless in digging holes in your backyard.The article claimed that with an airbourn thermal observation they would be able to detect disturbed earth.It inferred that detection would be posible for months-years.

I thought it was kinda funny but maybe a bit too subtle and at the same time tool long,

I thought it was kinda funny but maybe a bit too subtle and at the same time too long,