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Posted: 7/7/2002 8:15:43 PM EDT
[#1]
As far as I know, the University of North Carolina [i]still[/i] receives federal grant $$$ (taxpayer $$$, that is). Separation of church & state, anyone?
A.C.L.U., where are you? |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 8:16:29 PM EDT
[#2]
During the Seventies/Eighties my father tought me,
Better Dead then Red. The Universities tought, better red then dead. Now I see how the religion of islam shapes both those peoples politics and their potential as individuals and I won't have any part of that. And what do the Universities teach??? How to sacrifice yourself because you are afraid of muderous thugs... In the name of diversity of course... I never graduated college but I know more then anyone of them... Its a shame, we are supposed to be able to look to our universities for the truth about things... And it is hard to find a braincell among them.. Then they try to indoctrinate the freshmen , many of whom have a hard time thinking at all, and have no Real truth about the world around them... Thats disgusting taking advantage of people that way. Ben |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 8:22:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: As far as I know, the University of North Carolina [i]still[/i] receives federal grant $$$ (taxpayer $$$, that is). Separation of church & state, anyone? A.C.L.U., where are you? Clearly, this guy didn't read the article. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 8:39:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Quoted: As far as I know, the University of North Carolina [i]still[/i] receives federal grant $$$ (taxpayer $$$, that is). Separation of church & state, anyone? A.C.L.U., where are you? Clearly, this guy didn't read the article. No, I read the article, but was being facetious to try to make a point that, obviously, you didn't get. Try looking into the ACLU's past stance on religion & see if you don't get a sense of inconsistency from them. Depending on the flavor of religion, the A.C.L.U.'s tolerance varies. Learn to read between the lines, & try to ask before you assume. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 8:43:38 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm sure that there are people on here that are from this state or were living in this state that will disagree, and for that I am sorry but I just have to say this. north carolina is for the most part the largest grouping of complete and utter morons I have ever seen in my entire life. many of the people here are either libral and hate guns or live in a rusted out trailerand leam cars in there back yard for 30 f@#$in years. like I said there are some more moderates but they are deffinately the minority here. I have lived in many different states and I can honestly say I would rather swallow an frag grenade than live here the rest of my life. and all our colleges are intolerably liberal aswell.
flame suit on. I know there are some people who probably like the state but I can't understand for the life of me why |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 8:58:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it. They're in college. They're supposed to be reading all sorts of stuff, from the Communist Manifesto to the Federalist Papers. Frankly, they're probably better off reading that than most of the race/class/gender stuff that researchers in the liberal arts pump out these days.
Nobody says you have to agree with the canon, but you're usually better off for having read it. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 9:06:25 PM EDT
[#7]
I hardly put NC in the same class as NY, NJ, CA, MA or ILL. Certainly NC has some morons but they seem plentiful and well dispursed throughout the nation.
ALL universities seem to have a large number of naieve idealists that border on Communists. What else is new? I agree the ACLU has tunnel vision and often misses the forest for the trees. I have little use for Islam or the Koran. I hate to see young adults coerced into study of them as indoctrination. On the other hand, it IS wise to know your enemy. I will continue to think of Islam as my enemy until such time as they demonstrate otherwise. The better we understand their flawed thinking and the religion responsible, the better to defeat them. The devil is in the details in this policy. Could be very useful or traitorous. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 9:41:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Instead of reading any books ABOUT the Koran, every American should be REQUIRED to read the Koran. Then and only then will everyone see just what we are up against.
NMSight |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 12:06:42 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Instead of reading any books ABOUT the Koran, every American should be REQUIRED to read the Koran. Then and only then will everyone see just what we are up against. NMSight After seeing what they're willing to do, there should be little doubt about what we are up against w/ respect to religous fanaticism. For that matter, world history is filled w/ examples of religion-inspired persecutions, massacres, wars, ad nauseum. It seems that requiring reading of the Koran only serves to avoid judging the act for what it was - murder. Academics have always been fond of saying that an end does not justify the means - how many times I've heard this in philosophical debates on college campus I won't even venture to guess. But whenever someone sticks it to the U.S.A., then we must try to "understand" them rather than pass any sort of judgement about their conduct. I have no problem w/ anyone venturing to read the Koran, but it should be at the individual's inclination - not come as an edict from the ivory towers of know-it-all. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 12:20:31 AM EDT
[#10]
As the writer in "The Producers" put it, "I am the author and you are the audience--I outrank you!"
Teachers are supposed to know more stuff than students. That's why they assign required reading, and why students are supposed to read it. Again, reading something doesn't mean you agree with it, or that the teacher agrees with it. There's all sorts of fascinating but wrong stuff out there. But exposing yourself to the ideas is often like a vaccination--when you come across someone espousing the real thing out in the big bad world you hopefully know the implications of the idea. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 12:38:56 AM EDT
[#11]
I went to a non-religious private college that required me to read the Bible in my sophomore year. It's just part of being educated, part of the required course of study. But that school was focused on Western Civilization and its intellectual history, and everyone had the same course of study. It wasn't so much indoctrination, but education about an important pillar of our heritage in the west.
Somehow, I think UNC's program is different. I think if they required students to read the Bible cover-to-cover, there would be major screeching from the ACLU and the courts. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 3:21:21 AM EDT
[#12]
Actually, I'd rather read Cicero.
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Posted: 7/8/2002 4:30:04 AM EDT
[#13]
Let me see if I have this right...
"Under God" is unconstitutional when spoken as part of the Pledge of Allegiance. The Lord's Prayer is unconstitutional if students are required to recite it. The Second Amendment does not refer to individual rights, only the collective rights of States. The Fourth Amendment only applies in cases where the government believes it should...and neither the government nor its' employees should be held accountable. But it is OK for a liberal college to require students to read the Koran? Reading the Koran is not necessarily a bad idea...it is the guidebook and master plan of our sworn enemies. Reading the Bible is not a bad idea either...it is a large part of the foundation for our civilization. Being REQUIRED to read either...with attendant emphasis on "relevant" points and "facts" from super-liberal, ivory tower idiots with little to no real life experience about anything except tenure and being politically correct? NO! |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:06:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: As the writer in "The Producers" put it, "I am the author and you are the audience--I outrank you!" One playwrite's opinion. Teachers are supposed to know more stuff than students. That's why they assign required reading, and why students are supposed to read it. [i]Supposed[/i] to know more...? Sounds good in theory. I'll judge their "wisdom" on an individual basis, rather than assume they're all so greatly endowed. Not all professors are created equal. Again, reading something doesn't mean you agree with it, or that the teacher agrees with it. There's all sorts of fascinating but wrong stuff out there. But exposing yourself to the ideas is often like a vaccination--when you come across someone espousing the real thing out in the big bad world you hopefully know the implications of the idea. This isn't about a simple disagreement over a topic. Rather, it's about the constitutional issue of a publicly-supported university requiring students to read a specific religious text. As already mentioned by others, if it was the Bible instead, there would be - & have been - howles from left for adherence to the church-state separation portion of the 1st Amendment. If it were part of a broader study of comparitive religions, then no problemo. But this isn't the case. If it doesn't work for [u]any[/u] other religous texts (no matter which one you choose), then it shouldn't work for the Koran, either. Universities are [u]inconsistent[/u] in their tolerance of various religions - w/ Christianity taking the brunt of the vitriol. They should adhere to the logic of their own argument. But more importantly, to the law of the land. Given the universities record of inconsitency (& the ACLU's, for that matter), I'm not buying it. It smells like another agenda, disguised as a "broadening of students' perspectives" - [puke] Edited to add [puke] |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:11:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Actually, I'd rather read Cicero. We read him too [:D] And Tacitus. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:15:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: I'm sure that there are people on here that are from this state or were living in this state that will disagree, and for that I am sorry but I just have to say this. north carolina is for the most part the largest grouping of complete and utter morons I have ever seen in my entire life. many of the people here are either libral and hate guns or live in a rusted out trailerand leam cars in there back yard for 30 f@#$in years. like I said there are some more moderates but they are deffinately the minority here. I have lived in many different states and I can honestly say I would rather swallow an frag grenade than live here the rest of my life. and all our colleges are intolerably liberal aswell. flame suit on. I know there are some people who probably like the state but I can't understand for the life of me why Well swallow that frag Devil Dog. Just because Jacksonville is your ENTIRE experience when off base doesn't mean that the entire state is a dump. Take a ride to Charolette or Ashville sometime. And remember, it's ALWAYS a dump around a Marine base. And Yes, before you get your cammies in a bunch, I did my time in the suck at CPNC, so I know that of which I speak. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:36:20 PM EDT
[#17]
What the hell is the big deal? It's SCHOOL. People go there to LEARN. Even if the topics are about things that a group of people may not agree with. I don't see how they are being "indoctorinated" by reading/discussing a book that is about the Koran.
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:44:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: What the hell is the big deal? It's SCHOOL. People go there to LEARN. Even if the topics are about things that a group of people may not agree with. I don't see how they are being "indoctorinated" by reading/discussing a book that is about the Koran. [blue][b]Thank You... Thank You... Thank You... keyword here "about" the Koran... Know thine enemy......[/b][/blue] |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:47:48 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: What the hell is the big deal? It's SCHOOL. People go there to LEARN. Even if the topics are about things that a group of people may not agree with. I don't see how they are being "indoctorinated" by reading/discussing a book that is about the Koran. In principle, I agree with you completely. Except for the utter hypocrisy of liberals that rule academia. There was this matter about saying "GOD" in the pledge of allegiance, and a court ruled it unconstitutional, citing separation of church and state. I'm sure a lot of these academic types agreed with that ruling. So here we have government-funded UNC, requiring people to read a holy book. Separation of church and state cited here in protest? Surely this is a more egregious violation of church/state separation than just reciting a pledge that puts the state under god. No, because the holy book that is mandatory reading is the Koran. Had the holy book been the Bible, there would have been a huge uproar. Basically, it shows us that multiculturalism and political correctness trumps separation of church and state in the minds of liberals. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:48:22 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: I'm sure that there are people on here that are from this state or were living in this state that will disagree, and for that I am sorry but I just have to say this. north carolina is for the most part the largest grouping of complete and utter morons I have ever seen in my entire life. many of the people here are either libral and hate guns or live in a rusted out trailerand leam cars in there back yard for 30 f@#$in years. like I said there are some more moderates but they are deffinately the minority here. I have lived in many different states and I can honestly say I would rather swallow an frag grenade than live here the rest of my life. and all our colleges are intolerably liberal aswell. flame suit on. I know there are some people who probably like the state but I can't understand for the life of me why Well swallow that frag Devil Dog. Just because Jacksonville is your ENTIRE experience when off base doesn't mean that the entire state is a dump. Take a ride to Charolette or Ashville sometime. And remember, it's ALWAYS a dump around a Marine base. And Yes, before you get your cammies in a bunch, I did my time in the suck at CPNC, so I know that of which I speak. I kind of agree with ah1z. I've been in the Raleigh area for the past 6 years and can't wait to leave. The people in this area are definitely different. Don't know much about western NC, but I've had my fair share of bad experiences here in eastern NC. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:50:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: What the hell is the big deal? It's SCHOOL. People go there to LEARN. Even if the topics are about things that a group of people may not agree with. I don't see how they are being "indoctorinated" by reading/discussing a book that is about the Koran. In principle, I agree with you completely. Except for the utter hypocrisy of liberals that rule academia. [blue] Not "The Koran"... A book "about" it... Big difference, no way of knowing the "tilt" of the book from here... There was this matter about saying "GOD" in the pledge of allegiance, and a court ruled it unconstitutional, citing separation of church and state. I'm sure a lot of these academic types agreed with that ruling. So here we have government-funded UNC, requiring people to read a holy book. Separation of church and state cited here in protest? Surely this is a more egregious violation of church/state separation than just reciting a pledge that puts the state under god. No, because the holy book that is mandatory reading is the Koran. Had the holy book been the Bible, there would have been a huge uproar. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:51:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: What the hell is the big deal? It's SCHOOL. People go there to LEARN. Even if the topics are about things that a group of people may not agree with. I don't see how they are being "indoctorinated" by reading/discussing a book that is about the Koran. In principle, I agree with you completely. Except for the utter hypocrisy of liberals that rule academia. There was this matter about saying "GOD" in the pledge of allegiance, and a court ruled it unconstitutional, citing separation of church and state. I'm sure a lot of these academic types agreed with that ruling. So here we have government-funded UNC, requiring people to read a holy book. Separation of church and state cited here in protest? Surely this is a more egregious violation of church/state separation than just reciting a pledge that puts the state under god. No, because the holy book that is mandatory reading is the Koran. Had the holy book been the Bible, there would have been a huge uproar. [blue] Not "The Koran"... A book "about" it... Big difference, no way of knowing the "tilt" of the book from here...[/blue] |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:51:53 PM EDT
[#23]
I think its a good idea...I'd like to see them read the Bible & the Torah also. What is wrong with reading? Are ideas now being regulated also?
Is the first amendment dead? If so, we are in more trouble than we realized. It is a univeristy after all...students have the choice not to attend there if they wish...its not like its the only school around. Heck there are purley Christian universities in this country...so whats wrong with expanding our horizons & seeing beyond our little part of the world? Education of other cultures & their beliefs only makes us stronger...ignorance will only feed conflict. btw, I'm Islamic. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:24:20 PM EDT
[#24]
A quick look at the UNC catalog shows:
RELI 021 INTRO TO HEBREW BIBLE RELI 024 INTRO TO JUDAIC CIV RELI 025 INTRO ISLAM CIV M/E RELI 027 HIST CHRIST TRAD RELI 061 VAR CHRISTIANITY RELI 064 HIND- SACRED TEXTS RELI 078 JUDAISM IN OUR TIME RELI 113 ELEM BIBLICAL HEBR RELI 122 DEAD SEA SCROLLS RELI 305 SEM BIBICAL ST So they obviously are reading Christian texts, among others. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:41:52 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: A quick look at the UNC catalog shows: RELI 021 INTRO TO HEBREW BIBLE RELI 024 INTRO TO JUDAIC CIV RELI 025 INTRO ISLAM CIV M/E RELI 027 HIST CHRIST TRAD RELI 061 VAR CHRISTIANITY RELI 064 HIND- SACRED TEXTS RELI 078 JUDAISM IN OUR TIME RELI 113 ELEM BIBLICAL HEBR RELI 122 DEAD SEA SCROLLS RELI 305 SEM BIBICAL ST So they obviously are reading Christian texts, among others. I'm glad you looked this up...its appropriate that the various religions of the world be looked at. When I was in school, I read about all three...now, I did not have the time to read all three major Holy Books, but we did spend time studying parts of the Bible, the Quran, & the Torah...& comparing/contrasting them. There were Jews, Christians, & Muslims in the class...& not one person died the entire time...we were there for the same reason...seeking the truth--------> what universities should be ideally. |
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Posted: 7/9/2002 1:05:39 AM EDT
[#26]
McGredo: Of course Christianity is studied (from a variety of perspectives) in college. [rolleyes] I remember taking "The Bible as history" in high school even (it had to be in that context to be legal) - and from a hardcore "humanist" as the teacher. [:X*] The classes you cite, and the one I took, are and were strictly voluntary, and as such irrelevant to the subject at hand.
Matrix: The issue here is what the boundaries are with publicly funded universities. It is not the Koran itself that is required, but a book explaining it... selectively. Many people here, my self included, have a hard time believing that a mandate requiring incoming students to read a similar book on the bible (say by perhaps Pat Robertson) would not be vigorously challenged by the usual suspects on the grounds of religious coercion and church/state issues. Of course that's even assuming the idea would ever make it past the proposal stage; and with most university faculties being dominated by the Left... an unlikely scenario better suited to the realm of fantasy. There were Jews, Christians, & Muslims in the class...& not one person died the entire time... Sounds like an arguement for keeping the pledge of allegiance as it is. Where were you when that topic was raised here? [:D] |
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Posted: 7/9/2002 7:53:25 AM EDT
[#27]
I am for the Pledge of Allegiance as it stands..."...one nation under God..." I don't see the big deal...either you are for America or against it & either you believe in God or don't.
If you don't believe in God...don't say it. Let the rest of us that do, recite as we wish...what about our rights? I guess they are not important to the minority of people advocating this lunacy. As for publicly funded schools...I missed the point where it was a book about the Quran...that does not seem correct. I may be biased for or against it & that should be left to the individual for interpretation. I would rather see the three major Holy Books read as is. It would be nice if it were a choice left to the individual, but it seems this school has taken it upon itself to make it mandatory. I would read the book anyway to see what the author's point of view is...I certainly read many things that I don't agree with...that does not keep me from exploring the author's viewpoint. I sense that this may be settled in the courts? |
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Posted: 7/9/2002 8:25:49 AM EDT
[#28]
I am active duty Army stationed in Macedonia right now. I am a christian but I read the Koran so I would know what my enemy believes. This is what I got out of it.
1. A Jewish woman killed Mohammed. She poisoned him for killing a member of her family. He survived the poisoning but died later from after effects or complications from the poison.(explains why they hate Jews) 2. They believe christians worship 3 Gods. Not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but the Father, Son, and Mary. 3. It is a muslims duty to kill all non-believers. Period. (explains why they hate everyone else) 4. If you are not strong in your faith, the Koran will make you doubt your beliefs. 5. It does say to forgive those who ask for forgiveness (and become a beliver) but the kill non-believer passages far outnumber the forgive passages. Any body else read something different? |
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