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Posted: 7/1/2002 2:04:01 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: I like how the 2 main characters covered each other during the shootouts. You might notice that they're pretty good about keeping their fingers off the triggers when not aiming/shooting. Also, Taye Diggs switches the shotgun to his left shoulder, during the car chase in the beginning, in order to take proper advantage of cover. All around it's one of my favorite movies. It made me miss my old Springfield 1911 though... |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 2:18:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Perhaps my favorite movie for gun handling.
I dunno about the Galil. He could have had a 30 rounder on there couldn't he? I thought shooting it at the height he did was a waste of ammo, but he did run out of ammo for it quickly. Then he switched to the 1911. The movie finally made me realize I should spend the extra $40 on a Royal Guard IWB holster for my 1911 and quit messing with the damn NSAII holster. It is much more secure and comfy than the NSAII. The one handed reloads are cool at the end, though I didn't understand why they kept emptying them at the wall when they had one bad guy pinned. Caan and his J-frame taking care of biz was cool also. "Till that day" |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 2:25:22 PM EDT
[#3]
I thought the gun handling looked pretty cool. Actually it kind of distracted me-I had the impression n the beginning that the two main characters were kind of clueless small time hoods, but when the guns came out all of sudden they shot like Col. Cooper.
James Caan sure proved to be the master of the J frame. Seems like he made some pretty good placed shots from a fair range with that towards the end, but I haven't seen it in awhile. It was the right run for his character. No messin around with a fancy glock or sig... |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 2:27:54 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: The one handed reloads are cool at the end, though I didn't understand why they kept emptying them at the wall when they had one bad guy pinned. "Till that day" To keep him pinned. It seemed that they were bouncing shots off the wall too, but the scenes were so fast that I couldn't tell if that is what they were trying to do. The most realistic thing for me was the gunfire. The used recordings of the weapons firing real cartridges (which we all know sound a lot different from blanks) in a variety of different surroundings so that the shots sounded like they were fired a long way off, or right in the next room. Also notice that the shooting that took place inside didn't have echoes, but instead seemed to reverberate, like a shot fired inside a room will do. The order in which reports occured was very accurate too, first the flash, then the bullet impact or whizzing by (the sounds of bullet impacts and fly-bys were also supposedly recorded), last came the sound of the shot. To me though, the skills of the bad guys were a little unrealistically good. How many thugs have received tactical training (as del Toro and Phillipe got at an academy)? Good shooting all around though. Sound tactics with real gunfire sounds and sights, with non-stupid equipment. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 2:39:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: How many thugs have received tactical training (as del Toro and Phillipe got at an academy)? |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 2:43:07 PM EDT
[#6]
Cool gun handling. So-so flick. The first five minutes alone are worth the rental price. "Wanna do the man dance?"
Caan was just right. Philippe and DelToro were in way over their heads, that was part of the point. And you never know....maybe they went to Mid South in the prequel. The one handed reloads are awesome, even though I think they are wasting ammo a bit. "There's always free cheese in a mousetrap." |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 3:20:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: I thought the gun handling looked pretty cool. Actually it kind of distracted me-I had the impression n the beginning that the two main characters were kind of clueless small time hoods, but when the guns came out all of sudden they shot like Col. Cooper. That is one thing that didn't make sense and bothered me the whole film. Also they way the just decide to kidnap the girl at the spir of the moment without any planning reinforced to me that they were small time idiots. But once the guns come out you see they know what they are doing. Also isn't that an N frame Caan has ? A J frame only holds 5 shots. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 3:24:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Also isn't that an N frame Caan has ? A J frame only holds 5 shots. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 3:37:22 PM EDT
[#9]
... Really liked the slow chase scene.
Also, could't really discern whos scope that was on the AR. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 4:04:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Yes, the gunplay and gunhandling are excellent in this movie.
I never figured out why Del Toro carried 2 or 3 Galil mags and 10+ 1911 mags for the final shootout. I would have done it the other way around. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 4:28:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: ... Really liked the slow chase scene. Told someone that it has my 3rd favorite chase scene in a movie. They came back the next day and agreed it was pretty funny. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 5:14:58 PM EDT
[#12]
The best line(s) in the movie?
"Are you the brains of this operation?" - Caan "This isn't really a 'brains' type of operation." - Del Toro And, Francisco, I agree with you 100%. I would have stocked up on Galil mags. Of course, given what those suckers COST, that may be why he only had a couple. I also thought it was cool that Phillipe had a "tactical shell bag" on his belt to carry reloads for his shotgun. In most movies, the hero manages to carry 2-3 boxes of shells for his shotgun, but you never really see where they're coming from. You just can't carry that many in a jacket pocket... -Troy |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 5:52:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Maybe I'm wrong on this (someone with it on DVD can take a close look and tell me if I'm wrong), but I think something was off in the scene with DelToro shooting the Galil. As I was watching, it seemed to me that the action of the bolt reciprocating didn't match up with the sound or number of shots.
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Posted: 7/1/2002 6:56:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: Also isn't that an N frame Caan has ? A J frame only holds 5 shots. I'm thinkig it was a K frame, like a two inch 686. But it's been a while since I've seen it. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 7:01:24 PM EDT
[#15]
I didn't like how the boom mike kept dipping into the picture over and over again. Did they clean that up for the DVD? I was astonished something so amateurish could show up in a Hollywood movie.
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Posted: 7/1/2002 9:03:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: And, Francisco, I agree with you 100%. I would have stocked up on Galil mags. Of course, given what those suckers COST, that may be why he only had a couple. -Troy Duh! Thanks, Troy! That clears it up. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 9:26:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: I didn't like how the boom mike kept dipping into the picture over and over again. Did they clean that up for the DVD? I was astonished something so amateurish could show up in a Hollywood movie. Was it a pre or post-ban boom mike? [;D] |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 9:45:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: I didn't like how the boom mike kept dipping into the picture over and over again. Did they clean that up for the DVD? |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 9:49:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: I also thought it was cool that Phillipe had a "tactical shell bag" on his belt to carry reloads for his shotgun. I was thinking about buying a chalk bag (for climbing) instead, as these are not considered "tactical" and therefore are somewhat cheaper to come by. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 10:29:56 PM EDT
[#20]
for the shot gun stuff, try [url]http://www.3gungear.com[/url]
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Posted: 7/1/2002 10:35:00 PM EDT
[#21]
If you see the boom mike or other stuff that you are not supposed to see while at the theatre, it is due to the person running the projector being a dumbass. What happens is that when film is shot, the extent of the edges of the frame is greater than what is meant to be shown in the theatre. As a result, it is up to the projectionist to properly frame the picture so that the stuff around the edges does not show up. I would suggest you complain next time and hopefully the guy running the projector will get fired.
Back on topic, I did find the movie quite enjoyable and the opening scene outside the club was pretty cool. |
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Posted: 7/1/2002 10:38:39 PM EDT
[#22]
That was a great flick, I had to buy it, But I didnt really understand the end, did, Ryan Phillipe, and Benicio, die?? or were they just laying there defeated?? I mean they only got shot in the legs.
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Posted: 7/1/2002 10:42:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: That was a great flick, I had to buy it, But I didnt really understand the end, did, Ryan Phillipe, and Benicio, die?? or were they just laying there defeated?? I mean they only got shot in the legs. I believe Parker got hit a couple of times, but neither appeared life threatening. And no, I don't think they passed on to the great ungaurded subdivision in the sky. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 12:06:11 AM EDT
[#24]
[b]"As a result, it is up to the projectionist to properly frame the picture so that the stuff around the edges does not show up. I would suggest you complain next time and hopefully the guy running the projector will get fired."[/b] Hopefully.. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 4:52:38 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Maybe I'm wrong on this (someone with it on DVD can take a close look and tell me if I'm wrong), but I think something was off in the scene with DelToro shooting the Galil. As I was watching, it seemed to me that the action of the bolt reciprocating didn't match up with the sound or number of shots. damn, dude, now thats picky! i thought i was bad noticing that his full auto fire through the wall somehow made an unrealistically straight line! (no muzzle rise rocks!) overall, though i would put this as one of my top ten all time favorite movies. the movement was good, good shooting, tactics and gear, and the story of two little punk thugs going up against the crime lord (with james caan to boot!) kinda rocks. a lot of good dialogue, too, if you werent too distracted by the guns! [;D] |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 6:04:55 AM EDT
[#26]
I think for the final shootout they'd of both been better of with 16" semi ar's with an aimpoint rather then the full auto gali that Del Toro had.
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Posted: 7/2/2002 8:52:53 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: To me though, the skills of the bad guys were a little unrealistically good. How many thugs have received tactical training (as del Toro and Phillipe got at an academy)? Don't forget the life-altering (and in some cases life-ending) surprise that the FBI agents in Miami got when they tried to stop Platt and Matix in April of 1986. Platt was a former Army Ranger and Matix was a former Marine and 101st Airborne MP. Those two guys changed the way the FBI does business. Just ask Joseph Schultz. [rolleyes] |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 9:39:17 AM EDT
[#28]
I really like this movie.
I think that the mag changes on the Galil were good -- didn't think he shot more rounds than he should have. Ever load up a 30 rounders and take pot shots at clay pigeons down range? There's a lot of shooting that can be done with a 20 or 30 round mag, especially if you're using deliberate aimed fire. The last time he ran the Galil around the room chasing the (other) BG's, I've always tried to figure out if it was on full-auto or he was just pulling the trigger fast. He'd probably have it in semi-auto for clearing. Guess that isn't that important of a point. That was a great flick, I had to buy it, But I didnt really understand the end, did, Ryan Phillipe, and Benicio, die?? or were they just laying there defeated?? I mean they only got shot in the legs. I saw Del Toro get whacked once through the side -- may have slipped between his vest? It looked like he was holding his side/chest. I also though Phillipe got nailed in a similar manner. But with Del Toro having 3 shots hit the center chest early in the final shootout (you can see the holes in the vest prior to the C-section scene when they're with the doctor), I'd imagine that the kevlar wasn't up to absorbing too many more hits, even of .38 Special. Also, in the final scenes there were pools of blood starting to form in the sand, Phillipe was hacking and there may have been some bleeding from their mouths (I'll have to check). So, we have two BG's, with probable lateral chest wounds, heavy bleeding, and both legs are shot up so they are immobilized. They are laying in the square of a Mexican whore house that has been deserted by the locals since they started shooting the place up. They had no ammo, no money and the locals probably wanted to see them dead. After Caan and his crew took off, I don't see who would be there to offer them assistance. And without assistance, they will either bleed to death or get eaten alive by the vultures. Even if the wounds were survivable or could have been treated, these guys required some serious medical treatment. I don't see how they got it. I think they died. But it's always been a lingering questions -- which means it was a good ending. [:D] |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 11:51:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: I think that the mag changes on the Galil were good -- didn't think he shot more rounds than he should have. Ever load up a 30 rounders and take pot shots at clay pigeons down range? There's a lot of shooting that can be done with a 20 or 30 round mag, especially if you're using deliberate aimed fire. The last time he ran the Galil around the room chasing the (other) BG's, I've always tried to figure out if it was on full-auto or he was just pulling the trigger fast. He'd probably have it in semi-auto for clearing. Guess that isn't that important of a point. The part where he shoots full auto he shoots like 100 rounds before running out of ammo. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 11:59:44 AM EDT
[#30]
I'm with Philly-Gunman.
When Del Toro stitches the walls, he puts one round every 2 inches all the way across both of the walls. Easily 15 or so seconds of sustained FA fire. And they were 20 round mags. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 12:23:10 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: I think they died. But it's always been a lingering questions -- which means it was a good ending. [:D] |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 12:39:45 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: I think for the final shootout they'd of both been better of with 16" semi ar's with an aimpoint rather then the full auto gali that Del Toro had. When I was trained in CQB we were told to use full-auto to clear rooms (and when I say clear I mean that absolutely and positively [b]NO ONE[/b] is left standing when we leave the room). When it tends to get fast and furious full auto can be a beautiful thing to have. And knowing these characters I don't really think they'd care too much if Robin, the surrogate mother, ended up a little worse for wear at the end of the day - they sure as hell didn't care if anyone else was dead or alive. But sure, if your tactical standpoint is to only fire when you have a positively ID'd target, then a 16" semi will work fine. But do remember that these guys don't have to worry about damage control, they don't have to justify why innocent bystanders got shot up to any superiors or media. If you don't have to worry about the result of your actions it gives you a wider range of options for how you deal with a "tactical situation." In short - they're outlaws, they killed how many people already? What do they care if they happen to mow down another couple of people by mistake? |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 12:43:46 PM EDT
[#33]
This is one of my favorite "gun" movies. I like it more each time I see it.
However Ryan Phillipe tries to hard to sound lie a tough guy, and has way to much phoney bass in his voice. Jame Caan's man breast were distracting too. Did they have to put him in such a tight thin shirt in the jail scene? The blonde "wife" who Diggs is fooling around with is creepy too. The scene where she is sprawled out on the couch shoving raw shrimp in her carp like mouth actually grossed me out. Maybe it was meant too? The dialog is great. but most people will never pay close enough attention to an "action" film to appreciate it on that level. I'm hoping for a sequel, or even a prequel. But with Del Toro being an Ocar winner now for "Trafffic" he might be too $$$ for the small movies that made him famous. PS.. If you liked [b]Way of the Gun[/b] rent [b]The Usual Suspects[/b]. You wont be disappointed. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 12:49:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: The blonde "wife" who Diggs is fooling around with is creepy too. The scene where she is sprawled out on the couch shoving raw shrimp in her carp like mouth actually grossed me out. Maybe it was meant too? UGH!!! I forgot about that. Did you notice how LOUD those shrimp were crunching, and she kept shovelling them in? I was trying to decide what animal she was supposed to be, maybe a spider or something? |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 12:50:40 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Jame Caan's man breast were distracting too. Did they have to put him in such a tight thin shirt in the jail scene? The blonde "wife" who Diuggs is fooling around with is creepy too. The scene where she is sprawled out on the couch shoving raw shrimp in her carp like mouth actually grossed me out. Maybe it was meant too? The dialog is great. but most people will never pay close enough attention to an "action" film to appreciate it on that level. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 1:22:31 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Also isn't that an N frame Caan has ? A J frame only holds 5 shots. I'm thinkig it was a K frame, like a two inch 686. But it's been a while since I've seen it. a 686 is a [b]L[/b] frame 586/686 are L's 5 shot J frames , 19/66 are K frames & 27/28 are N frames I'm primarily thinking of common .357/.38 models |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 1:31:02 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: I love the fact that they don't spell everything out for you, you have to think for yourself. I don't know how many times I've heard people wonder what the hell was going on when Caan shows his wallet to Del Toro. There's most likely a picture of him and/or his daughter there, which tells Del Toro's character that although this is business, it's also personal. Riddle me this. I've watched the card game they play after Del Toro comes back from cofee with man-breast man several times, but am missing something. Del Toro is CLEARLY suspicious, like he caught them plotting against him. They agressivly explain the game to the girl, ending with the ploy to hold a card or something that can backfire and make you lose. Phillipe is angry, but they don't talk about what's wrong. Moments later Del Toro sends Phillipe back to the door by lying and saying he forgot his coat, which is hanging on the van mirror,almost getting him killed. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON BETWEEN THEM? I know they decide after Phillipe's speech to let her go, but what's going on there? |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 1:51:44 PM EDT
[#38]
The part where he shoots full auto he shoots like 100 rounds before running out of ammo. Yeah, with it being a .308 it probably was a 20 round mag. I've always wanted to count the bullet holes, but now that you mention it there sure were a lot of them.... [:\] In short - they're outlaws, they killed how many people already? What do they care if they happen to mow down another couple of people by mistake? I only watched about 1/3 of the directors comments version, but until then I had not realized how many "innocents" had been tagged in the initial kidnapping. Outside the doctors office they talked about the "pretty woman" dead in the parking lot, a woman in a car leaning over her dead husband (with bullet holes in the windshield) and a man with a broken back trying to get up but unable to move his legs. This is definitely a movie that takes repeated viewings to absorb. The characters all have their little flaws, which is one of the best things because they are all "believable" in this little screwed up way. It is pretty gritty and unforgiving to the characters. One of my favorite scenes (just because it was kind'a crazy -- a captive trying to make make small talk with the captor): Lewis [talking about the 1/2 sandwich that Phillipe gives her]: "This is good." Phillipe: "It came from a gas station." Lewis: "It's still good." Crazy, but seemed less like actors/actresses but how real people would react. Another good scene: Del Toro [talking about things cops say]: "I need back up..." Caan: "Adjudicate." Del Toro: "Huh?" Caan [shrugs] Or the look on Del Toro's face when he walks out of the convenience store and realizes that Phillipe has called the doctor. Great character movie. Oh yeah, and these guys would've rocked with a few AR15's! [b]So, what does everyone else think. Did they die?[/b] |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 3:48:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Riddle me this. I've watched the card game they play after Del Toro comes back from cofee with man-breast man several times, but am missing something. Del Toro is CLEARLY suspicious, like he caught them plotting against him. They agressivly explain the game to the girl, ending with the ploy to hold a card or something that can backfire and make you lose. Phillipe is angry, but they don't talk about what's wrong. Moments later Del Toro sends Phillipe back to the door by lying and saying he forgot his coat, which is hanging on the van mirror,almost getting him killed. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON BETWEEN THEM? I know they decide after Phillipe's speech to let her go, but what's going on there? Del Tori and Phillipe is not so good friends that Del Toro will let himself be caught if he can prevent it by sacrificing Phillipe. That help? |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 3:52:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: One of my favorite scenes (just because it was kind'a crazy -- a captive trying to make make small talk with the captor): Lewis [talking about the 1/2 sandwich that Phillipe gives her]: "This is good." Phillipe: "It came from a gas station." Lewis: "It's still good." Crazy, but seemed less like actors/actresses but how real people would react. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 3:55:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Quoted: Riddle me this. I've watched the card game they play after Del Toro comes back from cofee with man-breast man several times, but am missing something. Del Toro is CLEARLY suspicious, like he caught them plotting against him. They agressivly explain the game to the girl, ending with the ploy to hold a card or something that can backfire and make you lose. Phillipe is angry, but they don't talk about what's wrong. Moments later Del Toro sends Phillipe back to the door by lying and saying he forgot his coat, which is hanging on the van mirror,almost getting him killed. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON BETWEEN THEM? I know they decide after Phillipe's speech to let her go, but what's going on there? Del Tori and Phillipe is not so good friends that Del Toro will let himself be caught if he can prevent it by sacrificing Phillipe. That help? Yes and no. Is the folllowing scene where DT sends Phillipe back in after his jacket, knowing the jacket is not in the room, connected? They exchange glances after she ventilates the door and Phillipe sees the jacket hanging on the van, but they seem to drop it and become tight again for the rest of the movie. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 4:07:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Is the folllowing scene where DT sends Phillipe back in after his jacket, knowing the jacket is not in the room, connected? They exchange glances after she ventilates the door and Phillipe sees the jacket hanging on the van, but they seem to drop it and become tight again for the rest of the movie. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 4:14:52 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Quoted: Is the folllowing scene where DT sends Phillipe back in after his jacket, knowing the jacket is not in the room, connected? They exchange glances after she ventilates the door and Phillipe sees the jacket hanging on the van, but they seem to drop it and become tight again for the rest of the movie. Gotcha. I was reading it wrong, it seemed DT was trying to see how Phillipe would act on going back in or something, but a straight whack out with a changed mind seems to fit much better. I liked how they were discussing the card game rules and were pointing out their positions without saying anything about what was going on. Thanks, I'll watch it again with the correct mindset. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 4:17:05 PM EDT
[#44]
Here is what he is doing in my opinion. He sees that he is getting attached to the hostage so he sends him in for the jacket knowing she is going to shoot. He does this to show him the the chick does not care about them she just wants to get away. Just forces the point to say hey this is business forget about the girl she is only looking out for her best interest and rightfully so.
Robert |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 4:20:14 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Here is what he is doing in my opinion. He sees that he is getting attached to the hostage so he sends him in for the jacket knowing she is going to shoot. He does this to show him the the chick does not care about them she just wants to get away. Just forces the point to say hey this is business forget about the girl she is only looking out for her best interest and rightfully so. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 4:33:37 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Yeah, with it being a .308 it probably was a 20 round mag. I've always wanted to count the bullet holes, but now that you mention it there sure were a lot of them.... [:\] Actually, the Galil was clearly a .223, and used the correct 35-round mags for that gun. However, Del Toro fired at least 200 rounds from the gun in the two full-auto sweeps (and managed to keep the shots in a perfectly straight line, as others had mentioned) between the 2 or 3 mags he carried. That part was pure Hollywood gun BS. Most of the other gun-related scenes were excellent by Hollywood standards. .223 Galil mags typically cost $100-125 each. -Troy |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 5:01:53 PM EDT
[#47]
Parker and Longbaugh are screwing with each other's heads, too. The first time the doc showed up at the gas station Del Toro spotted the gun in his bag but let it go by anyway, to see if Phillipe would catch it.
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Posted: 7/2/2002 5:14:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Parker and Longbaugh are screwing with each other's heads, too. The first time the doc showed up at the gas station Del Toro spotted the gun in his bag but let it go by anyway, to see if Phillipe would catch it. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 5:47:37 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: .223 Galil mags typically cost $100-125 each. They've actually gotten cheaper (.223), Botach had the 35rd. Steel for $29 ea. just a short while back and they now have the 50rd. IMI mags for $50. (There are/were other alternate affordable sources too, CDNN is a good bet for starters.) The .308 hi-cap Galil mags are $80+. |
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Posted: 7/2/2002 7:06:59 PM EDT
[#50]
Parker and Longbaugh are screwing with each other's heads, too. The first time the doc showed up at the gas station Del Toro spotted the gun in his bag but let it go by anyway, to see if Phillipe would catch it. Actually I think that DT missed the gun. Kind'a like he was the fuck up of the operation, but then Phillipe gets attached. They exchange glances after she ventilates the door and Phillipe sees the jacket hanging on the van, but they seem to drop it and become tight again for the rest of the movie. They do more than exchange glances. Phillipe sticks his 1911 under DT's chin. I agree that there was some rivalry going on -- Phillipe ends up going soft and convincing DT to let her go. But they both agree that she s the bigger problem, and DT did pull him aside.... Actually, the Galil was clearly a .223, and used the correct 35-round mags for that gun. I initially thought that it was a .223 as well, but then someone here corrected me and said that it was a .308. I'll have to check some pics. Hmmmm. |
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