the mindset of the people doing the bombing must change before any progess will ever be made..

How this will happen is the real question..

cluster

Me and alot of people wish they knew, Sweep.

Hokey as it may sound, I just pray to God for a solution as much as I can.

-legrue

Every time one of those idiot suicide bombers lights up a crowd of women and babies....I get really pissed off. I am leaning toward removing them (palestinian cowards) from the planet.

I really belive that Muslim killing a muslim is OK with them... Any one else killing a muslim is then viewed as an attack on Islam then both warring parties [s]stop[/s] Pause their war combine arms against whoever "attacked" Islam then go back to fighting each other.


again only by changing the barbaric mind set will progress come along.

There will never be peace in that region while the terrorists are there. Israel must close its borders, expel all news people/journalists, escort all peaceful palistinians out of the country. Those that remain will be killed, be it man, woman, child, infant. Then any palistinians willing to live under peaceful Israeli rule should be allowed back into the country under very strict scrutiny. Photgraphs, fingerprints etc.

Any arab country that makes war with Israel is gonna lose.

I don't know if that is true. Ever hear of "the death of a thousand cuts"?  I think that is what is happening to the Israelis.

-legrue

It doesn't matter what the Jews do. It's a lose-lose situation. Make the PLO, Sewer Arafat, and anyone else who complains reach 2000 degrees F. It doesn't matter anymore, these people have shown so much restraint to no avail. It's not like they're going to tarnish their image with the world by using nukes. The alternitive is another Auschwitz, one suicide bomber at a time. Nukes=survival, tolerance=extiction.

Go back to Europe where they belong, how about that?

Most of Europe has kicked'em to the curb at one time or another. I'm not sure why everyone thinks these people are so horrible that they should be exterminated.

The U.S. and Isreal seem to have a lot in common. The uncivilized world hates us and wishes to see us go the way of the Do-Do.

Sweep, Am I trollin' yet ?

You are making some assumptions here. One is that the Palistinians aren't digging a hole for themselves with these suicide attacks that kill women and children.

Another is, what wrath of the world? What would Europe [i]really[/i] do against Isreal? Hmm? Send troops? Declare war? Asia cares less, and Africa and the Middle East already want the Jews dead.

The sole limiting factor is the United States, and how much greif WE are willing to take over the Isrealies comitting genocide or expelling millions of people who will destabilise neighboring countries. Not what will happen to the Isrealies. But the more children the terrorists blow up, the less the public here cares about what happens to the Palistinians.

Sweep,

You ask some good questions, and point out some very real problems. I've got some fairly strong opinions on the subject, and it should be noted that I spent some time on an Israeli settlement in the Negev, many years ago, and fast talked my way into going into Sinai during the 1956 campaign. My wife, though born in Chattanooga, was raised in Israel, and at one time we talked about moving back there; so be advised I am not a neutral observer.[:D]

To my mind, Israel's only viable option FOR THE LONG RUN is to displace all the Muslim Arabs on the West Bank, sending them  accross the Jordon River to what was the other half of Palestine before 1920.  (Trans) Jordon was created by the British to pay off the third of the brothers from Arabia (now Saudi Arabia) who helped the Brits beat the Turks in the First
World War.  The most helpful of the three got Syria, the second most helpful got Iraq, and the third and least helpful, Abdullah (the current king's great grandfather), wanted a country too, so they chopped off the whole section of Palestine east of the Jordon River, and gave it to him. He brought a few thousand desert tribesmen up from Arabia, took the place over, and declares himself king over the the native (Palestinian) population.

Now all of this history gets conveniently forgotten in the hoo ha over "a Palestinian state"; but the simple fact is that 1) there IS a Palestinian state and 2) the only really secure border for Israel in the east is the Jordan River.

So my "solution" is to move all of the MOSLEM ARABS to Eastern Palestine, and let Israel have the natural border of the Jordan River as its' eastern boundry.  Notice I said Moslem Arabs for it is they who have been the trrorists and haters among the Arabs in the region.  The Christian and Druse Arabs have not and do not hate Israel. In fact the Druse Arab units of the Israeli armed forces are some of the toughest units they have.  The Counsel General at the Israeli Counselate here in Atlanta a few years back was an Israeli Arab Christian, and a fine representative of his country.

Make no mistake; this is a religious war.  Moslems against all non Moslems. And for the Moslems, it makes no difference if you're Christian, Druse, or Jew.  If you don't worship Allah as they do they hate you, and that includes their non Moslem Arab brothers.

Here I found this on the wires:
[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=3&u=/ap/20020620/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_4964[/url]

Some in Palistine may be realising that they ARE digging themselves a hole:


It is interesting, could be a flash in the pan. In fact the very existance of this open letter smells of the involvement of OUR Central Intelligance Agency. Who else could have brought these people togeather?

let the palestinians stop the bombers. if they don't israel should shell their settlements for a day.

Interesting that Hanan Ashrawi is specifically mentioned. She is the only female, and as far as I know, the only Christian, to have been a member of Arafat's "inner circle".  Saw another item about her within the past few days that she has finally split with him over the continuation of the Intifada, and his rejection of the deal that Barak offered at Camp David.

Expidite building those walls, pre 1967 borders or whatever it doesn't matter, and remove the suicide bomber option. Once the US cleans house with their financial backers, watch them come running for a true peace process.

Playing the "I got you last" game will only lead to ruin for both peoples.

Pushing them into neighboring countries will be like an act of war. They don't want the Palestinians either.

The Israelies should bulldoze the "West Bank" into the "West Plain", and pave the "Gaza Strip" into the "Gaza Air Strip".

Trans-Jordan was intended to be the "Palestinian" state.  King Abdullah, the first king of Trans-Jordan acknowledged that Trans-Jordan and Palestine were one in the same.  Even King Hussein acknowledged it in his memoirs.  

"Palestine and Jordan were both (by then) under British Mandate, but as my grandfather pointed out in his memoirs, they were hardly separate countries. Transjordan being to the east of the River Jordan, it formed in a sense, the interior of Palestine." - King Hussein, writing in his Memoirs

Today Jordan will have nothing to do with them, and treats them like filth, even though it's estimated that between 60-75% of the citizens of Jordan are Palestinians.

It should also be noted that Arafat hasn't pushed the issue that Jordan is Palestine since the 1980's.  Anyone who thinks his goal is a Palestinian state is a fool.  The goal is literally the destruction of Israel.  So why give them two states?

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas.

Pretty keen insight, Armd.

Israel will take care of themselves. The US will just have to clean up the mess.

You do know that the 'Jerusalem Post' was formerly known as the 'Palestine Post', and that all the Jews living in the Holy Land were called 'Palestinians'?

'Palestine' was simply the name the British resurrected (a bad choice of words for this area, I know) when they took over the 'mandate' of this area in the early 1920s.

I believe that this area of the earth will never be settled until the return of One Who can settle all disputes.

I hate to punt with a [i][b]Deux ex Machina[/b][/i], but I see no human hope for settlement of this dispute.

And with each new suicide bombing, and retaliatory strike by Israel, the hope for a human settlement of the dispute gets further unlikely.

Is there an actual historical precedent for such hatred and violence between nations or peoples that has ever resulted with the lion lying down with the lamb?

I can't think of one. One or the other of the nations or peoples just vanished or were so overwhelmed by the other as to cease to exist.

So my answer? [i][b]Maranatha![/b][/i] [b]Lord, Come quickly![/b]

If I were an Israeli Jew, my next visit to the Wailing Wall would include the prayer, Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord!

And I would never stop praying that prayer!

Eric The(Otherworldly)Hun[>]:)]

YUP.

Its kinda like sin itself. ONLY God has the cure for sin.

Humans are silly to try to cure sin on their own. Which makes me think humans are silly to try to cure THIS on their own.

And in fact, SIN is the root problem in the Middle East. Want peace? Stop the sin. And ONLY God can do that.

Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus.

Deal for Peace.....(#3)

I am pro Israel but when one [b]cannot[/b] stop the bombing and the killing of innocent civilians....then one got to think differently. When the tit for tat is no longer effective then one got to make deal for peace.

And those of you who think that 'Dealing for Peace' is the answer, are you certain that these Palestinians are not going to use their new nation on the West Bank to set up the ultimate fall of Israel?

The Palestinian schools text books show their nation as extending to the Mediterranean Sea, their flags, seals, and other symbols show the entirety of Israel included in Palestine.

See my thread 'What do These Logos Have in Common' at: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=119570[/url]

Chairman Yasser 'Soon to Be A Citizen of Syria' Arafat continues to bitch and moan about a Palestine 'from the River to the Sea'!

You've seen the photos of the Palestinian kids is there any doubt in any of your minds that these children will continue their fight against Israel, even [u]after[/u] a 'peaceful settlement'?

Israel is an idiot if it falls for anything less than the total dismemberment of the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and every other group that seeks its extermination.

Israel will either win big or lose bigger.

But the story has already been written. The ending has already been declared. The stage is set for the final scenes of human history.

It will [u]not[/u] end as T. S. Elliot once wrote, '...not with a bang, but with a whimper.'

But with the Sound of a Trumpet.

[i][b]Are you listening?[/b][/i]

Eric The(IAm!)Hun[>]:)]

Let's begin the negotiations right here.

Starting positions:

Israel: Wants to exist.

PLO: Wants all Israelis/Jews to die.


Should Israel budge a little on their position, or should the PLO?

I vote for genocide.  Israel is already pretty much on its own with the rest of the world.  WE need no "Arab coalition" as that line of thinking led to the failure in Iraq.  We acted nearly alone then and will when we finally finish the task.  Israel really has only two choices: Kill or be killed.  The moslems are fanatics and incapable of reason.  Comes from 13 centuries of barbarism.  Just as we found it necessary to exterminate the American indians, Israel must exterminate their enemies to survive.  Only when the "palastinians" are utterly defeated will there be peace for Israel.  Only when we have crushed all islam into sand and glass will WE have peace.

Put them under the "ban".  Nuke them off our planet!

Okay, kill them all (palestinians), invade Lebanon, then Syria.....and if the bombing won't stop...what next?....I know, I hate to say it but I am not the only one.

There is a solution.  It just isn't pretty, and the standards that nations are judged by are unequal to say the least.

When suicide bombings were all the rage in Egypt awhile back, they resolved it quickly and efficiently.  Their families were killed.  Soon, no one was willing to sacrifice themselves AND their whole family.  Unfortunately, Israel would be castigated by the world, but the bombings would stop virtually over night.

I like all of the nations of the world telling Israel that what they are doing in response is wrong, but no one seems to offer the RIGHT solution.  When Israel pulls back, the bombings continue.  When they try to negotiate for peace, the bombings continue.  And these are the things they should be doing?  It is easy for other countries to say what should and shouldn't be done when no one is blowing up their children...

Build the wall down the middle of the West Bank with a 500 meter no occupation zone that is devoid of any buildings, cover, etc.  Put ALL of the Palestinians on the west side.  Allow them no access to the Temple Mount and their Mosque, and if they want, it so bad, dismantle it and send it to them to erect wherever they like... on THEIR side of the wall.  If the Palestinians want more of "their" land, let them try and take the 90% back from Jordan.  I am sure the Jordanians wouldn't have put up with these bombings this long, fellow muslims or not.

Amen, [b]Brother Bretshooter[/b], yours is precisely the answer that we've been looking for!

Eric The(Impressed)Hun[>]:)]

I like it, EXCEPT the Temple Mount is considered "sacred" by the Arabs as well.

Doing this would enrage the ENTIRE Arab world, and we'd have WW3 on our hands.

Details, details.

Unless you beleive WW3 is the only way to settle this. Maybe so.

What Bretshooter said!!!

Great post!!!

Eric/Tyler

There has to be a stick and a carrot. Carrot for those palestinians who can be swayed, a stick for those who can't.

I'm very saddened to say it, but as for the suicide bombers, the best solution may be indeed to to start killing their families. The good side to that is probably only a half dozen families would be exterminated before the rest would get the clue.

-legrue

Ok, perhaps they don't dismantle the mosque, but they still will be on the other side of the wall.  At least until they can act like something other than 7th century barbarians.

It is my understanding that there are ancient artifacts beneath the Temple Mount that are of Jewish origin (yeah, I know that isn't the exact term to use, please help me out here...) and are pre muslim era.

I also understand that it is the muslim's belief that the Jews were never there prior to their recent "occupation" of Israel.  And that the muslims were destroying these artifacts to eradicate this proof of Jewish claim of first occupation.  Interesting tactic, this destruction of proof.  It is similar to the school books that Jordan provided to the Palestinians were reasonably accurate, but when the PLO replaced the books, the maps do not contain Israel.  Another interesting omission, and not a good faith example of peaceful co-existence.

I doubt it would take more than 2 or 3.  The cost is just too high to gamble.

On the lighter side, who will the Saudi's send the support checks to?

Maybe I wasn't clear.

Its the MOUNT itself that is sacred. The dirt, and rocks, and grass.

They got plenty of mosques.

Wall them off from that acreage, and you got the ENTIRE ARAB WORLD ENRAGED.

Israel KNOWS this, and that's why they haven't done what you suggest.

Right now they gotta deal with a few whacked out homicide bombers, and Sadaam sending checks to the kooks families after a bombing.

Wall of the temple mount area, and the sky would be darkened by all the ordnance and aircraft in the Arab world.

So where is the threat?  Israel has faced the entire muslin world before (at least all that could reach them) and that is how they gained all of this land that is in contention, and the Sinai Penninsula (which they graciously gave back in a true negotioan for peace).

So tell em to back off, or Mecca gets a reprisal....

Now wait just a damn minute here.  What most of you are calling the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the site of the holy temple of the biblical Israelites, destroyed except for its western wall, by the Romans.  The Muslims put up their mosque on that site because they claim it's where Mohammad ascended to heaven;  Even tho their own scholars largely disagree and say it was in another part of Jerusalem.

Ha Kotel (the Wall) is the holiest site in Judaism. and the Moslems who erected that mosque over it 7 or 8 hundred years ago knew that.  That's precisely why they built that mosque there; to illustrate the superiority of Islam over the earlier faith of the Jews.

Moslems have Mecca, Medina, and a hundred other places to keep holy.  The Wall is the only place on earth that a Jew aspires to see and worship at before he dies.  I've never been there, because when I was in Israel, in 1956, the place was held by the Damned Arabs (Jordan) and a Jew couldn't go there. G-d willing, I will get back and worship there before I die. Was it up to me, I'd blow up their Damned mosque, and start to build a new Holy Temple for my people.  (It's probably fortunate that it's not up to me)

[OK Rant and Rave switch off [:D] ]

Its like in the Cowboys with John Wayne..

"Lord forgive me for the women I have trifled with, the men I have killed and the Men I am about to kill."  --And then kill them..


God will understand that...


Because Osama Bin Laden is a murdering , lyin, cheatin, no good dirty rotten Son of a Bitch....
And those outlaws he has working for him are no better.....


Jesus tought peace, but when there can be no peace , then make the most fearsome, violent war that can be made... IOW: If you can't use the New Testament, use the Old Testament..

Ben

"All that could reach them..." - That is misleading -

If they walled off the Temple Mount, EVERY Arab everywhere in the WORLD would "reach them."

In reality, Israel faced only a tiny, fragmented portion of the Arab world.

Garandman,
What is your solution, then?

I've conceede their may be no solution, OTHER THAN dealing with the sin problem that is at the root of the homicide bombings. Namely, the evangelization of teh Arab peoples. And also the Jewish peoples.

Most people won't like that answer, but there it is.

From a strictly humanistic POV, here's what needs to be done.

1. Get all US tax $ out of Israel.

2.Completely unshackle Israel from defending herself / proceeding in whatever means she wants.

3. With Israel unleashed, and with our funding of the killing of Arab peoples ended, wait and see what happens.

4. Sit down with ALL world Arab leaders, of even the smallest goat roping community. Communicate that ONE MORE terrorist attack against the USA will initiate policy #6.

5. If the threat to America ends, either by Israels total victory, or the removal of an incentive for Arabs to kill Americans BECAUSE OF American tax dollars funding Israel's war machine, then KOOL.


6. If not, Complete and total full scale war against any and all that are determined to have in any way funded terrorsim. Even the nuclear option.

If concern for Israeli interests appears missing from this "modest proposal" its intentional.

I'm an American.

My suspicion is the whole problem will be over after #5. When we stop funding teh Israeli war machine, and Israel AND the US present these terrorist bastages with MASSIVE POWER AND STRENGTH, peace will ensue. If I'm wrong, then we gave it our best shot. May God have mercy on their souls, cuz we won't.


Peace thru strength.

Okay, let's do #6 then....Let's get it over with.

You said Peace thru Strength. Right?

I think we were discussing Israels solutions...

Your exact question to me was "What is your solution?"

I take "your" (in this instance) to mean me.

My mistake I suppose.

Israels solution would be contained in #2 - get the US and the UN out of their business. But that is perhaps out of their hands.

This is interesting actually.

A poster here recently listed Israels gun laws, and by our standards they are quite draconian. When I pointed this out, he assured me that they had those laws becasue the citizens WANTED those laws.

Now, given the type of people I've ever known that WANTED to be far away from military style firearms and wanted them outlawed to be pansies who wouldn't fight to save their own mother from being beaten and raped, I'm beginning to wonder if the Jewish peoples have the collective will to fight the Arabs, or if they just want someone else to do it for them.

Fact is, if Mexico or Canada were pulling the crap that  Israel's neighbors are, you'de have 1 million blood thirsty, pissed off gun owners on the border ready to march on their capitals of Mexico or the appropriate Canandian province.

Yesterday, I posited that perhaps powers within the Israeli gov't want to maintain the status quo. Prolly not, but who knows? Maybe the Israeli gov't knows the poeple lack the will to fight. All I know for sure is they sure are handling matters in a weird way - sending bulldozers against people who I'm told seek the eradication of Israel. That's why I propose #2 (above) to unshackle Israel, and let's see what they can do first. Prolly alot of the weirdness in the way they handle this is the US's fault.

Now, if my friend is wrong, and they actually WANT access to military style firearms and are prohibited from getting them by a despotic gov't, then all of this is irrelevant.

(To Whom It May Concern: Yes, I know - this all comes out of my "hatred." Save it, Its been done to death. [rolleyes])

I think Israel should do what Israel thinks she should do without us interfering. Period. And I can hear garandman already thinking that our $ gives us the right to tell them what to do. I have said previously why we get our moneys worth. But mainly, because if Israel kick the crap out of the terrorists big time, without restraint, we may be spared more of the insane attacks by this death cult called radical islamism. In case you all haven't heard, arabs tried to by a couple of ambulances for cash here in the US. Luckily the dealer didn't go for it. The scumbags have no morals and use whatever is at their disposal to kill the innocent. If the Israelis will show the arab world that terror loses, then the terrorists will crawl back into their holes. If we keep tying their hands, and the terrorists win they will be blowing themselves up at a preschool near you. LET THEM DO THE DEED!

Actually, NO.

Israel is a sovereign nation. If we choose to GIVE them money, its hands off.

Kinda like when I used to work construction. We'd all get paid on Friday, and 2/3 of the crew would spend their entire paycheck on beer and reefer that weekend.

Monday, they would come to me, and ask for money - claiming it was JUST a loan.

On teh occassions I gave them money, I considered it gone. I didn;t tell them how to spend it, or make them attend church with me on Sunday.

I agree Israel should be COMPLETELY FREE to act as a soveriegn nation - but WITHOUT our money paying for their war machine, or paying to re-build the things they destroy.