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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:27:50 AM EDT
[#1]
Okay, I'm in.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:32:20 AM EDT
[#2]
Poopy link.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:34:50 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:35:32 AM EDT
[#4]
In on one without reading anything.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:35:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Okay, I'm in. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:38:24 AM EDT
[#6]
Was debating on whether to start another ATF scandal thread, but I really love my dog.
This one is going to get interesting. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:39:08 AM EDT
[#7]
tag
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:43:05 AM EDT
[#8]
NFATCA...
huge kapo organization to me. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:45:32 AM EDT
[#9]
In for another scandal
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:51:13 AM EDT
[#10]
Read the SSI story.
THIS COULD GET INTERESTING Is it too soon to request a tack for this one, too? |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:55:35 AM EDT
[#11]
in on 1
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:57:39 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Poopy link. Aw crud, sorry about that. Copy/paste fail on my part. I'll fix it. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:00:50 AM EDT
[#13]
What the FFLs did was criminal and against the law, even if the ATF is bungling the investigation.
The FFLs would take a Mac-11 and move it between multiple dealers, each transfer slightly changing a characteristic on the form (model, barrel length, overall length, caliber) until the papers did not reflect a Mac, but something much more valuable, such as a 1919 or M60. They would then cut out the Mac's serial number and weld it onto the 1919's receiver and sell the 1919 to an unsuspecting buyer. To put it another way, you can't turn your Mustang into a Ferrari by welding the Ford's VIN onto an illegally-imported Ferrari. Rule of thumb: SWD never made M16s, M60s, 1919s, etc, and/or if the serial number starts with "86-" (and its not a Mac) tread very carefully. Kharn |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:05:48 AM EDT
[#14]
FTBATFE
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:14:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
What the FFLs did was criminal and against the law, even if the ATF is bungling the investigation. The FFLs would take a Mac-11 and move it between multiple dealers, each transfer slightly changing a characteristic on the form (model, barrel length, overall length, caliber) until the papers did not reflect a Mac, but something much more valuable, such as a 1919 or M60. They would then cut out the Mac's serial number and weld it onto the 1919's receiver and sell the 1919 to an unsuspecting buyer. To put it another way, you can't turn your Mustang into a Ferrari by welding the Ford's VIN onto an illegally-imported Ferrari. Rule of thumb: SWD never made M16s, M60s, 1919s, etc, and/or if the serial number starts with "86-" (and its not a Mac) tread very carefully. Kharn interesting - any more info or links about who was involved? |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:14:31 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: What the FFLs did was criminal and against the law, even if the ATF is bungling the investigation. To put it another way, you can't turn your Mustang into a Ferrari by welding the Ford's VIN onto an illegally-imported Ferrari. The FFLs would take a Mac-11 and move it between multiple dealers, each transfer slightly changing a characteristic on the form (model, barrel length, overall length, caliber) until the papers did not reflect a Mac, but something much more valuable, such as a 1919 or M60. They would then cut out the Mac's serial number and weld it onto the 1919's receiver and sell the 1919 to an unsuspecting buyer. Rule of thumb: SWD never made M16s, M60s, 1919s, etc, and/or if the serial number starts with "86-" tread very carefully. Kharn So what? If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:18:14 AM EDT
[#17]
Hmmmmmm
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:18:23 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What the FFLs did was criminal and against the law, even if the ATF is bungling the investigation. To put it another way, you can't turn your Mustang into a Ferrari by welding the Ford's VIN onto an illegally-imported Ferrari. The FFLs would take a Mac-11 and move it between multiple dealers, each transfer slightly changing a characteristic on the form (model, barrel length, overall length, caliber) until the papers did not reflect a Mac, but something much more valuable, such as a 1919 or M60. They would then cut out the Mac's serial number and weld it onto the 1919's receiver and sell the 1919 to an unsuspecting buyer. Rule of thumb: SWD never made M16s, M60s, 1919s, etc, and/or if the serial number starts with "86-" tread very carefully. Kharn So what? If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue. At some point it becomes like the Ship of Theseus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:27:09 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What the FFLs did was criminal and against the law, even if the ATF is bungling the investigation. To put it another way, you can't turn your Mustang into a Ferrari by welding the Ford's VIN onto an illegally-imported Ferrari. The FFLs would take a Mac-11 and move it between multiple dealers, each transfer slightly changing a characteristic on the form (model, barrel length, overall length, caliber) until the papers did not reflect a Mac, but something much more valuable, such as a 1919 or M60. They would then cut out the Mac's serial number and weld it onto the 1919's receiver and sell the 1919 to an unsuspecting buyer. Rule of thumb: SWD never made M16s, M60s, 1919s, etc, and/or if the serial number starts with "86-" tread very carefully. Kharn So what? If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue. At some point it becomes like the Ship of Theseus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus Well then, I postulate that you are not gopeterson then. All you cells have been replaced with different ones during your life.  |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:30:45 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
My example isn't perfect, but the spirit is the same. The VIN of a car can never be transferred to a different frame, the same with the serial number on a receiver.
If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue. Go buy a Mac, when the dealer fills out the Form 4 to move it to your possession, tell the dealer you want to list the model as M4, caliber as 5.56x45, the barrel length as 16" and the overall length as 40" and see what the ATF says when he submits the Form 4. Tell the dealer if/when the Form 4 comes back approved, you want him to take a semiauto M4 off the rack, drill the autosear hole, weld the Mac's serial number over the M4's serial number and let you walk out the door with it. Do you think the ATF would notice that suddenly four characteristics of the firearm changed from a Mac to an M4? The dealers exploited the paperwork jumble that is the NFA registry to conduct their scam and enrich themselves, while removing a large number of Macs from the registry (as the original Mac was destroyed once its serial number was removed). Quoted:
interesting - any more info or links about who was involved? I dont know any names or links. Kharn |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:40:23 AM EDT
[#21]
This thread is going places.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:50:47 AM EDT
[#22]
Here are the links to the affidavit and the indictment:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/35434700/Machine-Gun-Raid-Affidavits-and-Returns http://www.scribd.com/doc/70912164/Indictment |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:51:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
interesting - any more info or links about who was involved? Well, the indictment document on the Sipsey blog has a pretty complete list. Here are two articles from last year: http://www2.citypaper.com/story.asp?id=20486 http://www.kdminer.com/main.asp?FromHome=1&TypeID=1&ArticleID=47386&SectionID=1&SubSectionID=798 |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:53:00 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: My example isn't perfect, but the spirit is the same. The VIN of a car can never be transferred to a different frame, the same with the serial number on a receiver.If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue. Go buy a Mac, when the dealer fills out the Form 4 to move it to your possession, tell the dealer you want to list the model as M4, caliber as 5.56x45, the barrel length as 16" and the overall length as 40" and see what the ATF says when he submits the Form 4. Tell the dealer if/when the Form 4 comes back approved, you want him to take a semiauto M4 off the rack, drill the autosear hole, weld the Mac's serial number over the M4's serial number and let you walk out the door with it. Do you think the ATF would notice that suddenly four characteristics of the firearm changed from a Mac to an M4? The dealers exploited the paperwork jumble that is the NFA registry to conduct their scam and enrich themselves, while removing a large number of Macs from the registry (as the original Mac was destroyed once its serial number was removed). Quoted: interesting - any more info or links about who was involved? I dont know any names or links. Kharn Net machine guns remained the same. Ergo, no new machine guns were added to the registry.  ETA: Take a basket of 100 fruit. 50 Apples and 50 oranges. Paint the apples orange and inject them with citrus flavoring. How many fruit are in your basket?
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:56:49 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What the FFLs did was criminal and against the law, even if the ATF is bungling the investigation. To put it another way, you can't turn your Mustang into a Ferrari by welding the Ford's VIN onto an illegally-imported Ferrari. The FFLs would take a Mac-11 and move it between multiple dealers, each transfer slightly changing a characteristic on the form (model, barrel length, overall length, caliber) until the papers did not reflect a Mac, but something much more valuable, such as a 1919 or M60. They would then cut out the Mac's serial number and weld it onto the 1919's receiver and sell the 1919 to an unsuspecting buyer. Rule of thumb: SWD never made M16s, M60s, 1919s, etc, and/or if the serial number starts with "86-" tread very carefully. Kharn So what? If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue. The ATF has held that it's not the serial numbers that are registered with the NFR, but the actual weapons. Serial numbers are just used to track those specific firearms. Since the registry is frozen, those specific weapons already on the registry are frozen as-is. Think of it this way. Go to walmart. Pull the RFID tracking off a pallet of shirts, throw it on a pallet of cereal. Just moving the RFID chip to the cereal doesn't change that into a pallet of shirts. It's merely tracking the wrong physical item. The shipping manager isn't tracking RFID tags, he's tracking the physical items those RFID tags represent. Same with the ATF and serial numbers on MGs. What these guys did was wrong. And while the ATF is a corrupt agency with an unconstitutional mandate, they occasionally get one right. These guys broke the law and (as long as the case was proceeded with legally) they should be in jail for this, regardless of the prosecuting agency. Consumer fraud isn't exactly civil disobedience. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:58:15 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My example isn't perfect, but the spirit is the same. The VIN of a car can never be transferred to a different frame, the same with the serial number on a receiver.
If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue. Go buy a Mac, when the dealer fills out the Form 4 to move it to your possession, tell the dealer you want to list the model as M4, caliber as 5.56x45, the barrel length as 16" and the overall length as 40" and see what the ATF says when he submits the Form 4. Tell the dealer if/when the Form 4 comes back approved, you want him to take a semiauto M4 off the rack, drill the autosear hole, weld the Mac's serial number over the M4's serial number and let you walk out the door with it. Do you think the ATF would notice that suddenly four characteristics of the firearm changed from a Mac to an M4? The dealers exploited the paperwork jumble that is the NFA registry to conduct their scam and enrich themselves, while removing a large number of Macs from the registry (as the original Mac was destroyed once its serial number was removed). Quoted:
interesting - any more info or links about who was involved? I dont know any names or links. Kharn Net machine guns remained the same. Ergo, no new machine guns were added to the registry. ETA: Take a basket of 100 fruit. 50 Apples and 50 oranges. Paint the apples orange and inject them with citrus flavoring. How many fruit are in your basket? Yeah, total number is not how the registry is regulated. Try again. 50 painted apples w/ citrus flavoring are still not 50 oranges. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:02:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My example isn't perfect, but the spirit is the same. The VIN of a car can never be transferred to a different frame, the same with the serial number on a receiver.If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue. Go buy a Mac, when the dealer fills out the Form 4 to move it to your possession, tell the dealer you want to list the model as M4, caliber as 5.56x45, the barrel length as 16" and the overall length as 40" and see what the ATF says when he submits the Form 4. Tell the dealer if/when the Form 4 comes back approved, you want him to take a semiauto M4 off the rack, drill the autosear hole, weld the Mac's serial number over the M4's serial number and let you walk out the door with it. Do you think the ATF would notice that suddenly four characteristics of the firearm changed from a Mac to an M4? The dealers exploited the paperwork jumble that is the NFA registry to conduct their scam and enrich themselves, while removing a large number of Macs from the registry (as the original Mac was destroyed once its serial number was removed). Quoted: interesting - any more info or links about who was involved? I dont know any names or links. Kharn Net machine guns remained the same. Ergo, no new machine guns were added to the registry. ETA: Take a basket of 100 fruit. 50 Apples and 50 oranges. Paint the apples orange and inject them with citrus flavoring. How many fruit are in your basket? Yeah, total number is not how the registry is regulated. Try again. 50 painted apples w/ citrus flavoring are still not 50 oranges. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:03:44 AM EDT
[#28]
oh boy...
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:07:44 AM EDT
[#29]
When the ATF is involved, always take the other side.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:08:03 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My example isn't perfect, but the spirit is the same. The VIN of a car can never be transferred to a different frame, the same with the serial number on a receiver.
If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue. Go buy a Mac, when the dealer fills out the Form 4 to move it to your possession, tell the dealer you want to list the model as M4, caliber as 5.56x45, the barrel length as 16" and the overall length as 40" and see what the ATF says when he submits the Form 4. Tell the dealer if/when the Form 4 comes back approved, you want him to take a semiauto M4 off the rack, drill the autosear hole, weld the Mac's serial number over the M4's serial number and let you walk out the door with it. Do you think the ATF would notice that suddenly four characteristics of the firearm changed from a Mac to an M4? The dealers exploited the paperwork jumble that is the NFA registry to conduct their scam and enrich themselves, while removing a large number of Macs from the registry (as the original Mac was destroyed once its serial number was removed). Quoted:
interesting - any more info or links about who was involved? I dont know any names or links. Kharn Net machine guns remained the same. Ergo, no new machine guns were added to the registry. ETA: Take a basket of 100 fruit. 50 Apples and 50 oranges. Paint the apples orange and inject them with citrus flavoring. How many fruit are in your basket? Yeah, total number is not how the registry is regulated. Try again. 50 painted apples w/ citrus flavoring are still not 50 oranges. Yeah, but you're comparing apples and oranges. 
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:12:37 AM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:17:44 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
When the ATF is involved, always take the other side. Sounds like something Sun Tsu would say. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:18:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What the FFLs did was criminal and against the law, even if the ATF is bungling the investigation. To put it another way, you can't turn your Mustang into a Ferrari by welding the Ford's VIN onto an illegally-imported Ferrari. The FFLs would take a Mac-11 and move it between multiple dealers, each transfer slightly changing a characteristic on the form (model, barrel length, overall length, caliber) until the papers did not reflect a Mac, but something much more valuable, such as a 1919 or M60. They would then cut out the Mac's serial number and weld it onto the 1919's receiver and sell the 1919 to an unsuspecting buyer. Rule of thumb: SWD never made M16s, M60s, 1919s, etc, and/or if the serial number starts with "86-" tread very carefully. Kharn So what? If I take a Mustang VIN and build a Ferrari around it, in all shapes, forms, and content and sell it or keep it, thus enriching myself while paying all applicable taxes, why should the government care? I did not increase the number of cars on the road nor did the .gov lose any revenue. The ATF has held that it's not the serial numbers that are registered with the NFR, but the actual weapons. Serial numbers are just used to track those specific firearms. Since the registry is frozen, those specific weapons already on the registry are frozen as-is. Think of it this way. Go to walmart. Pull the RFID tracking off a pallet of shirts, throw it on a pallet of cereal. Just moving the RFID chip to the cereal doesn't change that into a pallet of shirts. It's merely tracking the wrong physical item. The shipping manager isn't tracking RFID tags, he's tracking the physical items those RFID tags represent. Same with the ATF and serial numbers on MGs. What these guys did was wrong. And while the ATF is a corrupt agency with an unconstitutional mandate, they occasionally get one right. These guys broke the law and (as long as the case was proceeded with legally) they should be in jail for this, regardless of the prosecuting agency. Consumer fraud isn't exactly civil disobedience. It's not consumer fraud. If they misrepresented the guns to the buyers, maybe. But that's not what I understand to have happened. Plus, the ATF ratified what they did through approval of the forms. The ATF, as the agency tasked with approval of forms, is in the best position to determine the legality of the transfer, (according to case law) and they "signed off" on the transfers. The problem with the ATF being the agency with the power to promulgate, adjudicate, and basically change any rules and regulations that they see fit, is that they are the ATF. If you look uP arbitrary and capricious in the dictionary, See ATF is listed beside it. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:20:56 AM EDT
[#34]
captainpooby,
The problem is if the ATF does not like what you have done to your MG, they seize it and destroy it. Those MGs are no longer available for civilian purchase, raising prices for everyone. Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:26:18 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: captainpooby, The problem is if the ATF dies not like what you have done to your MG, they seize it and destroy it. Those MGs are no longer available for civilian purchase, raising prices for everyone. Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Look. I own an M11/9. No governmental agency should be able to tell me what I can or cannot do to it as long as no one is harmed. If the ATF seizes and destroys my property because I modified it, harming you by increasing the price of MGs who harmed you? Me or them? One of my plans, years ago when I decided to buy my M11, was to purchase one of those awesome MG42 uppers for. Guess what? ATF, in their vindictive, lawless manner, declared them illegal. Now who was harmed there?
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:28:03 AM EDT
[#36]
We had a local gunstore (where I've done business a few times, and they're great guys so I'll leave them unnamed in this thread) get caught up with this. Not sure if they were complicit or just an unwitting recipient of the guns.
Either way, this is yet another example of government bureaucracy creating the problem in the first place. If there were a way to legally add guns to the registry to assuage demand, that would be one thing. but since supply is limited, and demand unlimited, the price will continue to rise. And any time there is a high price on a limited commodity, say hello to counterfeit. It happens with watches, cars, and virtually every other exclusive, expensive consumer good. Machine guns are no different. It just happens to be a "big, bad" federal crime. NFA is bullshit, but it's not as much bullshit as '86. Congress really needs to cut this shit out.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:28:57 AM EDT
[#37]
Tag.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:30:39 AM EDT
[#38]
Interesting points here. I think the practice of having a title & matching numbers on a frame neck and/or (depending if it's pre-'70) engine left side cases is used all the time to build a new motorcycle with a legal title.
The part of only using the serial number is not that far off... I can see both sides of the issue, but I'd think it SHOULD be totally legal. I'm still thinking about the thread that posed the question: Is a big fixed suppressor built fixed on a range considered a suppressor.... Guess it comes down to how much lawyer money you have budgeted, like many issues. Bob |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:33:13 AM EDT
[#39]
It's not a procedural issue so much as the people who BOUGHT the M60 w/ the MAC serial # are looking at prison time for what a dealer did, yet the dealer(s) are getting off scott free.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:35:30 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: When the ATF is involved, always take the other side. However, these dealers were fucking over unknowing people by selling illegal machine guns that could be confiscated leaving the buyers out tens of thousands of dollars. If they had been pulling this scam to enhance their own collections, that's one thing. But this? Fuck 'em. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:35:55 AM EDT
[#41]
In on 1.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:41:50 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
I'm still thinking about the thread that posed the question: Is a big fixed suppressor built fixed on a range considered a suppressor.... Like a big tube of tires that you shoot through? Not designed to be mounted on a firearm, so it's not a suppressor, legally speaking. Suppressors shouldn't be NFA at all, though. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:48:27 AM EDT
[#43]
In I guess
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:49:56 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm still thinking about the thread that posed the question: Is a big fixed suppressor built fixed on a range considered a suppressor.... Like a big tube of tires that you shoot through? Not designed to be mounted on a firearm, so it's not a suppressor, legally speaking. Suppressors shouldn't be NFA at all, though. Suppressors aren't defined as weapon mounted, only any device that lowers the sound, check out the thread it's pretty sad/funny. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:56:11 AM EDT
[#45]
Fuck the NFA. Fuck the MG ban. Fuck the ATF.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:58:02 AM EDT
[#46]
How many MAC serial numbers where affected? (How many guns?)
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Posted: 10/31/2011 8:00:30 AM EDT
[#47]
In
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Posted: 10/31/2011 8:02:10 AM EDT
[#48]
Not the first (or second) time this has happened at the ATF.
IOW...........In
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Posted: 10/31/2011 8:02:43 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Quoted: When the ATF is involved, always take the other side. However, these dealers were fucking over unknowing people by selling illegal machine guns that could be confiscated leaving the buyers out tens of thousands of dollars. If they had been pulling this scam to enhance their own collections, that's one thing. But this? Fuck 'em. I'll stick with fuck the ATF. The same people who sell weapons to Mexican drug cartels are going to get bent out of shape over some cosmetic differences to MGs? Fuck them. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 8:07:22 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
When the ATF is involved, always take the other side. Good call |
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