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Posted: 6/13/2002 4:29:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Quoted: Isreal is the only Democracy in a part of the world that is completely chaotic. That is why we should and do support Isreal. Please. Israel is a socialist nation. That's common knowledge. They do have elections, that's a start. I guess you feel we should let Arabs have it. You're right though, Iraq would probably make a much better sub for Isreal. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 4:30:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: I never understood our overzealous support for Israel either. Maybe I an not up to speed on world politics, geography and the politically correct thing to do. One thing that always sticks in my mind is the "6 day war" (Is that what it was called?) It sounds like it was an Israeli occupation of Palestinian land or in other words, Israel (funded by the US) stole land from Palestine. Frank, with all due respect, I suggest you pick up a history book then. May 14, 1967: President Nasser of Egypt demands a withdrawl of UN forces, who had been there since 1957 as a protector to Israel, from the Sinai peninsula, and the UN obeys. The US and Great Britain are unable to stop this. May 15, 1967: Three Egyptian army divisions and 600 tanks are deployed in the Sinai. May 17, 1967: Voice of the Arabs radio program out of Cairo broadcasts "All Egypt is prepared to plung into total war which will put an end to Israel." May 18, 1967: Voice of the Arabs announces "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence." On this same day, President Nasser announces a blockade of the Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, cutting off Israel from the sea. Israel considered this an act of war. May 20, 1967: Syria's Defense Minister Havez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..." May 27, 1967: May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." May 30, 1967: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel." May 30, 1967: King Hussein of Jordan signs a five year mutual defense pact with Egypt and immediately sets up a joint command. May 31, 1967: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..." On that same day, Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map." June 4, 1967: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel. continued... |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 4:31:14 PM EDT
[#3]
June 5, 1967: Sensing impending doom the Isreali air force catches the Egyptians sleeping and destroys most of their air force before their planes can leave the ground.
June 6, 1967: Israel does the same to Syria's air force. This would not have been successful, except for Egypt's inabiliy to admit defeat, as they announced that they were destroying the Israeli forces over the radio. This proved to be the undoing of Syria and Jordan's air forces. After these decisive victories, there was little left for Israel's enemies to do. The Arab countries had been so sure of victory that they made it clear what their intentions were, thinking it would be impossible for Israel to withstand their assault. Fortunately they were wrong, and the Six Days War is considered to be one of the most masterful pre-emptive strikes in history. So, I do not fault Israel for taking lands from those who wished to destroy her after they lost the battle. It should also be noted that Israel has given some of those lands back over the years. That is why Egypt and Israel have diplomatic relations today. Remember the Alamo (and the rest of your history for that matter, and God Bless Texas... |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 4:38:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: FrankSquid... If you are going to make a judgment on Israel at least get your facts straight! I can not believe how misinformed your knowledge of the 6 day war is...who taught you that stuff? A Neo-Nazi? The armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan brought their armies ti full alert and mobilized them on Israels border...war was emminant... In an effort to survive, Israel launched a preemptive strike and kicked the shit out of all three, nearly trippling in size in 6 days due its brilliant military victory... Although Israel fired the first rounds, the Arabs were no doubt preparing to invade...this is fact! What little I have learned about the middle east was aquired from TV and the news paper. Anybody that has any experience with newspaper and TV and how they spin the facts has to try to read between the lines. (You should know this being a gun lover). I try to look at the facts. The fact's are that Israel invaded Palistine "trippling in size in 6 days due its brilliant military victory" according to your account. I just wonder which came first? The chicken or the egg? Why where the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan brought to full alert and mobilized on Israels borders? Was it to prevent an Israeli invasion? I am here to learn more about what happened. I try to see things with an open mind, your comment about learning my facts from a Neo-Nazi are out of line. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 4:52:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Frank...
You are right, I apologize for my comments in regard to your source of history, I should not have made the implication that I did...my comment was aimed towards Graves...again...sorry... Graves... I suggest you spend less time twisting my words and more time on your reading comprehension skills... |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 4:55:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Frank, with all due respect, I suggest you pick up a history book then. ... Unfortunately, I was making-out with Shari Hurling during history class in high school. I have never been much of a reader anyway, I try to learn through intelligent conversation with rational people. GBT, Thank you for you posts. They are very informative and now I do understand a little better. Indeed, it does shed some light on the subject. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 4:55:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: What little I have learned about the middle east was aquired from TV and the news paper. Anybody that has any experience with newspaper and TV and how they spin the facts has to try to read between the lines. (You should know this being a gun lover). I try to look at the facts. The fact's are that Israel invaded Palistine "trippling in size in 6 days due its brilliant military victory" according to your account. I just wonder which came first? The chicken or the egg? Why where the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan brought to full alert and mobilized on Israels borders? Was it to prevent an Israeli invasion? I am here to learn more about what happened. I try to see things with an open mind, your comment about learning my facts from a Neo-Nazi are out of line. They didn't invade Palestine. They invaded lands occupied by Jordan, Egyp, Syria, and Iraq, which had all been carved out of the lands of the Ottoman Empire, collectively known by the British as Palestine, after World War II. Israel was the last of these to be carved out of what was left of the land. It shold also bear mentioning that Muslims and Jews lived together in that area of the world for over four centuries during the rule of the Ottoman Turks and well into British rule until Muslims clerics incited violence by spreading the rumor that Jews were planning to destroy Al Aqsa mosque. And the modern day violence between the two groups has been going on since. Also of note is that many Muslims died at Muslim hands during this time as well. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 5:02:34 PM EDT
[#8]
Beautiful, [b]GodBlessTexas[/b], that was just f-ing beautiful!
What an excellent exposition on the Six Day War that was, indeed! Eric The(GodBlessTexasIndeed!)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 5:10:35 PM EDT
[#9]
GodBlessTexas
Damn good History lesson. [IMG]http://www.uniquehardware.co.uk/server-smilies/otn/wink/thumb.gif[/IMG] Graves14, did you learn something today. Pay attention better when school starts again this Fall. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 5:24:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: This was originally brought up in the "Pali terrorists up to their old tricks" thread. I asked why we care about Israel. I asked what Israel has ever done for us. The answers that received ran from "because of cultural ties" to "they're fighting the same terrorists we are." Here's the one question that will shed some light on our "closest, most trusted ally." How many Israeli troops are in Afghanistan right now? Where is our closest, most dear ally now, in our time of need? Canada is there. Hell, even Japan has sent two ships....how much has the mighty US funded Israeli Army sent? Great,more anti Israeli/Jew BS. You guys are so good at spin you should work for the Dems. or some other comies. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 5:32:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Isreal is the only Democracy in a part of the world that is completely chaotic. That is why we should and do support Isreal. Please. Israel is a socialist nation. That's common knowledge. They do have elections, that's a start. I guess you feel we should let Arabs have it. You're right though, Iraq would probably make a much better sub for Isreal. Gunsnob - You completely blew that quote - attributing your words to me. I'm not overly upset about it - just posting this "for the record." |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 5:57:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Great,more anti Israeli/Jew BS. You guys are so good at spin you should work for the Dems. or some other comies. Simple question. What conflict have we been involved in that Israel provided troops and/or supplies in any way whatsoever? As far as that goes, what has Israel ever done for the US? Wait...they share intel, right? How nice of them to provide intel on Iraq while our soldiers(and many other nation's soldiers) did the fighting and dying. For people who hold the military in such high regard you certainly don't seem to mind that our alliance with Israel seems to be remarkably one sided...at least when it comes to American soldiers dying, that is. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:01:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Because the United States is a Democratic Republic. If more citizens than not decide we as a Country support East Knockerstan for instance WE DO. More citizens want to support Israel than not, so we do. End of Story. I don't remember voting to send Israel 5 billion a year. When are these votes held again? I want to get in my two cents. Since this is a democracy, will you hand in your guns when more Americans than not decide guns are bad? |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:05:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Here's the one question that will shed some light on our "closest, most trusted ally." How many Israeli troops are in Afghanistan right now? Where is our closest, most dear ally now, in our time of need? Canada is there. Hell, even Japan has sent two ships....how much has the mighty US funded Israeli Army sent? Canada and Japan's militaries aren't busy suppressing and rooting out terrorists operating within their own borders, who have been killing their citizens on at least a monthly basis for 20 months. Israel's is. Canada and Japan aren't surrounded on all sides by hostile countries which have invaded their country 4 times in the last 50 years. Israel is. Israel can't afford to let down their guard or divert any military power. Then there's the fear that having the Israelis help us would alienate every muslim country from us in the war. So that's why Israel isn't in Afghanistan. Thanks Canada and UK for being there. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:08:51 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Simple question. What conflict have we been involved in that Israel provided troops and/or supplies in any way whatsoever? As far as that goes, what has Israel ever done for the US? Wait...they share intel, right? You keep asking the same question, people have answered you, and you ask the same question again. Your an idiot. Nobody minds debating and having different opinions, but with most at least each person learns, or at least one of them does. Not the case with you. Why don't you go watch cartoons. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:13:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Quoted: Because the United States is a Democratic Republic. If more citizens than not decide we as a Country support East Knockerstan for instance WE DO. More citizens want to support Israel than not, so we do. End of Story. I don't remember voting to send Israel 5 billion a year. When are these votes held again? I want to get in my two cents. Since this is a democracy, will you hand in your guns when more Americans than not decide guns are bad? Thanx I'll take your .02 cents, send it to E-T-H and let him decide where it goes. The votes are held in the US House of Representatives and the US Senate, it's called the budget. The President also signs off on the budget once it is approved by the legislative branch. In the Constitution I have the Right to "Keep and arm bears". So no I don't care how many other people don't like armed bears, I have a RIGHT to do it. [;)] Wait I meant "Keep and bear arms". The same US Constitution sets up the US government structure. Currently the US Reps. ans US Senators are directly elected by popular vote in their respective districts. The Prsesident is indirectly elected by the People through the Electoral College. You can probably vote for all those representatives, and probably a whole bunch of State and local representatives as well. That is where your 2 cents is. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:25:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Thanx I'll take your .02 cents, send it to E-T-H and let him decide where it goes. The votes are held in the US House of Representatives and the US Senate, it's called the budget. The President also signs off on the budget once it is approved by the legislative branch. In the Constitution I have the Right to "Keep and arm bears". So no I don't care how many other people don't like armed bears, I have a RIGHT to do it. [;)] Wait I meant "Keep and bear arms". The same US Constitution sets up the US government structure. Currently the US Reps. ans US Senators are directly elected by popular vote in their respective districts. The Prsesident is indirectly elected by the People through the Electoral College. You can probably vote for all those representatives, and probably a whole bunch of State and local representatives as well. That is where your 2 cents is. I keep voting for the man running on the anti-aid to Israel platform, but for some reason he keeps getting beat. I'm glad that nothing goes on in DC that I didn't indirectly vote for...just imagine what they could dream up if they just did what they wanted irregardless of the will of the people. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:44:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Simple question. What conflict have we been involved in that Israel provided troops and/or supplies in any way whatsoever? As far as that goes, what has Israel ever done for the US? [b]Joint Intelligence[/b] againThe United States and Israel have an important intelligence-sharing partnership. Both at the working and policy level, the United States and Israel exchange sensitive intelligence and formulate joint strategies and procedures for combating terrorism and countering the threat of weapons proliferation. One of the world's leading experts and collectors of intelligence on terrorist groups, Israel is one of five countries -- and only non-NATO country -- participating in the U.S. counterterrorism Technical Support Working Group, whose experts work to thwart and respond to terrorist attacks. The following are some examples of their information exchange: In 1997, the United States and Israel agreed to share intelligence on early detection of missile launches. Israel has provided vital information to the United States on Iran's ballistic missile and nuclear weapons programs, allowing accurate predictions on the accelerated timetable of these programs. Israel provides intelligence to the United States on Hezbollah's activities in southern Lebanon and on other Middle East terrorist groups. Israel provided intelligence to U.N. weapons inspections teams in Iraq after the Gulf war, allowing them to find documents, data and hidden facilities. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:44:50 PM EDT
[#19]
[b]Joint Military[/b]
The Israeli Defense Force and the U.S. military jointly operate a number of committees and programs designed to maintain their special military alliance. These programs include military exchanges, joint military exercises and a variety of planning groups: [b]Joint Military Exercises:[/b] The United States and Israel engage in a large number of joint military exercises, involving American land, sea and air forces. Twice annually, U.S. Marines conduct desert warfare training with their IDF counterparts, and U.S. pilots hold mock dogfights with the Israeli Air Force. In 2001, the USAF and IAF conducted their largest combined maneuvers to test aerial combat tactics and refeuling. [b]Joint Missile Defense:[/b] The United States and Israel are developing contingency plans for coordination of their missile defense systems in the event of a regional crisis. In 2001, the U.S. Army and Navy deployed units to Israel for a large-scale rehersal of joint missile defense procedures with the IDF. [b]Pre-positioning:[/b] The United States pre-positions hundreds of millions of dollars worth of military equipment, including spare parts, trucks, ammunition and armor in Israel. This equipment can be used as emergency supplies by Israel in times of crisis, as was needed during the 1973 Yom Kippur War. The supplies also are available to U.S. forces for military contingencies in the region. [b]Strategic Policy Planning Group:[/b] A high-level group that meets to discuss ways to improve and strengthen the strategic relationship between the United States and Israel. Issues include missile defense, stopping rogue states from acquiring weapons of mass destruction and early-warning procedures. [b]Military to Military Exchanges:[/b] An average of 300 U.S. Department of Defense and military personnel travel to Israel every month, more per capita than any other U.S. ally. Nearly every Israeli military commander visits the United States to tour American facilities. Senior U.S. commanders from all four service branches make regular visits to Israel for exchanges with the IDF leadership. [b]Defense Hotline:[/b] This arrangement between the U.S. Secretary of Defense and the Israeli Defense Minister provides a direct and secure line of communication for the two defense leaders to use before and during a crisis. [b]Joint Political-Military Group:[/b] This formal group, established in 1983, conducts high-level planning meetings twice a year. [b]Joint Secretary Assistance Planning Group:[/b] Composed of the Israeli Ministries of Defense and Finance and the American Departments of Defense and State, this group meets annually to discuss Israel's increasing requirements for U.S. military aid and its decreasing need for economic aid. [b]I doubt this aswered your question good enough for you, but it would for most[/b] |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:53:35 PM EDT
[#20]
ilikelegs...Good post!
Just out of curiosity though, what's your source? |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:58:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: I keep voting for the man running on the anti-aid to Israel platform, but for some reason he keeps getting beat. I'm glad that nothing goes on in DC that I didn't indirectly vote for...just imagine what they could dream up if they just did what they wanted irregardless of the will of the people. Could it be that is partially because more people in that area wish to support Israel than don't wish to support Israel?? Check the Constitution or any other document listing "Rights". None of them will say life is fair. Just because you don't like how something is going doesn't make it unfair, and even if it is unfair so what? Let's review, the citizens of the US get to elect representative that get to decide on the day to day operations of the goverenment. Those reps., elected by the people as the "people's reps". have decided to support Israel. DEAL WITH IT. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 6:59:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: ilikelegs...Good post! Just out of curiosity though, what's your source? America's Pro Israel Lobby. I'm sure Graves14 will have a problem with it. But the information is there. [url]http://www.aipac.org/documents/unitedefforts.html[/url] |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 7:18:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: ilikelegs...Good post! Just out of curiosity though, what's your source? America's Pro Israel Lobby. I'm sure Graves14 will have a problem with it. But the information is there. [url]http://www.aipac.org/documents/unitedefforts.html[/url] The name says it all: The American Israel Public Affairs Committee: America's Pro-Israel Lobby I'm glad you found an unbiased source. I think I'll now argue that Germany was right in WWII and provide a Neo-Nazi website as proof of it. But that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 7:24:31 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ilikelegs...Good post! Just out of curiosity though, what's your source? America's Pro Israel Lobby. I'm sure Graves14 will have a problem with it. But the information is there. [url]http://www.aipac.org/documents/unitedefforts.html[/url] The name says it all: The American Israel Public Affairs Committee: America's Pro-Israel Lobby I'm glad you found an unbiased source. I think I'll now argue that Germany was right in WWII and provide a Neo-Nazi website as proof of it. But that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? Like I said already, you wouldn't like the source. [size=6][b]But It Is Fact not Fiction. So deal with it.[/b][/size=6] And Im sure you can very well argue that Germany was right in WWII and provide a Neo-Nazi website as proof of it. Im sure you have them listed as favorites within your web browser. And FYI, I'm almost 80% German and hate Nazi's freaks as you are leading us to believe you are. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 8:50:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Beautiful, [b]GodBlessTexas[/b], that was just f-ing beautiful! What an excellent exposition on the Six Day War that was, indeed! Eric The(GodBlessTexasIndeed!)Hun[>]:)] Truth be told, a lot of the specifics came from a search engine, but it's factually accurate to the best of my knowledge, as I've taken quite an interest in that area's history since I got back to reading the Bible. Hopefully we can talk more at the ETH shoot, if I can make it. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 9:05:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: Graves... you say, "...I haven't seen many Americans screaming at a Wall lately, have you..." and... "Who do you hate more? The person who you know is out to destroy you, or the backwards little brother who sponges off of you while laughing at your generousity?" sounds pretty anti-semetic to me...Not all people who dislike Israel are anti-semites, but you clearly are...why don't you keep talking, that way there will be more room for your foot in that big trap of yours... Care to answer the questions instead of screaming anti-semite at me? Incidentally, your dislike of Arabs would make you an actual anti-semite. Engage in debate. Have your questions answered. Dislike the answer. Scream anti-semite at the top of your lungs instead of an actual response. Repeat. Nice tactic. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 9:10:35 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: [Since this is a democracy, will you hand in your guns when more Americans than not decide guns are bad? |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 10:32:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: More citizens want to support Israel than not, so we do. End of Story. Wrong. Support for Israel, at the current level or any level has NEVER been on any referendum. The Congress and the President ASS-U-ME that the majority supports Israel just as he ASS-U-MEs that the people of this country are willing to surrender freedoms hard fought by our forfathers for temporary illusions of security. I agree that we should not cut off all support for Israel completely, after all we will want/need to use them at some point if we really need to launch a major war with a country in the area. But FIVE BILLION DOLLARS a year in peacetime? There's no Arab threat out there that will cost even more than $500 million per year to defend against! There's no more Soviet Union handing out guns, tanks, and planes to whoever wanted to kill allies of the US; Russia won't sell to anyone unless they pay up front in cash, they're no fools. The Arabs are so weak militarily that they have to blow themselves up because nothing else they can fire at Israel will even dent their armor. Even in wartime what could possibly justify FIVE BILLION DOLLARS a year in aid to such a tiny country with minimal miltary threats? Quoted: As far as that goes, what has Israel ever done for the US? Wait...they share intel, right? How nice of them to provide intel on Iraq while our soldiers(and many other nation's soldiers) did the fighting and dying. I've agreed with most of your points here, but this one is lacking in fact. Israel didn't attack Iraq because we told them not to. In fact Iraq Scud-bombed parts of Israel and we asked them not to retaliate as it might fracture the anti-Iraq Arab coalition (which was Saddam's intention by attacking Israel). The multi-billions actually were worth it that year. (The Jews trotted out the nukes after the Scud attacks but did not fire them. Iraq didn't quite realize what kind of fire they were playing with.) Except for the restraint above and bits of intelligence... there's nothing else they give us in return, except more and more reasons for Arabs to hate us for supporting them. The early 80s attack on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, while helping us during the Gulf "War", was out of their own interests. Oh there's little stuff here and there like what ilikelegs has posted about "miltary cooperation", but we get far more from Britain and it doesn't cost $5 billion dollars a year. |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 12:19:12 AM EDT
[#29]
You goyim anti-semites are nothing but trash.
[url]www.jlaw.com/Commentary/guncontrol.html[/url] Gun Control: A Jewish Look by Rabbi Chaim Steinmetz "What does Jewish law (halacha) have to say about this issue?...In the Talmud there are specific regulations that resemble gun control...[b]The Talmud prohibits someone from selling offensive weapons to idol worshippers and suspected criminals (Avodah Zarah 15b; YD 151:5-6). The rule against selling to idol worshippers is based on an assumption that the idol worshippers will use them against Jews;[/b] however, if the Jews are allied with the idol worshippers, it is permitted to sell them arms... [b]This halacha requires that the buyers of firearms be carefully screened, and resembles in many ways laws requiring a national registry of gun and rifle owners.[/b]" ----- [url]ajcongress.org/pages/RELS2000/DEC_2000/dec00_04.htm[/url] AJCONGRESS SAYS THAT SHOOTINGS IN BOSTON AREA SEND MESSAGE TO BUSH ADMINISTRATION AND NEW CONGRESS THAT GUN CONTROL MUST BE HIGH ON AGENDA FOR 2001 "When a gunman comes equipped for action with an AK-47 semi-automatic rifle, a shotgun and a semi-automatic handgun, as happened today, the rote arguments of the gun lobby against registration, licensing and other means of effective enforcement are clearly shown to be empty of merit and meaning. Today's tragedy is proof that present controls are inadequate. If we seriously intend to prevent this kind of violent trauma, better ways must be found to keep such an arsenal from landing in the hands of those might kill." "As part of that effort, the American Jewish Congress' STOP THE GUNS: PROTECT OUR KIDS campaign to secure one million petition signatures demanding that Congress enact tough legislation providing for the licensing and registration of guns will continue in the year ahead. We will not cease reminding the Congress that until these steps are taken, Washington will have failed in its obligation to protect the American people from the heartbreak of sudden and unexpected violence." [url]ajcongress.org/pages/RELS2000/JAN_2000/jan00_07.htm[/url] "Licensing of gun owners is an important first step toward stemming the tide of gun violence which is sweeping the nation. While the President's proposal is right on target, we continue to believe that registration of all guns, not merely licensing of owners, is necessary. America needs a data base which will allow law enforcement officials to track weapons used in violent crimes." |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 4:07:44 AM EDT
[#30]
Imbroglio nails it again.
These Israel firsters CLAIM Israel is "the only democracy in the area" when its well known that Israel is a socialist nation. I pray to God Israel's "democracy" NEVER makes it to the USA. Then, the Israel firsters IGNORE the proven fact that the Zionist pro-Israel lobby (sans Christian evangelicals anf JPFO types) are STRONGLY anti-gun. Its NOT good when you support the people that support socialism AND gun control. They are laughing at you all the way to the bank. Thanks Imbroglio. Truth is ALWAYS a good thing. |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 4:22:45 AM EDT
[#31]
I have seven words for you assholes...
JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARM OWNERSHIP They have a larger commitment towards maintaining our right to keep and bear arms than you two fools (Imbroglio and Garandman, and your 8,000 posts on AR15.com don't count as commitment) could ever have...what the f*ck have you done lately to preserve the rights other than bitch and moan and cause more devisiveness within the gun owning community? I'm not surprised with your opinion on this issue...in fact, I can't believe that you've been so silent up until this point...but we all know where both of you stand on Israel and Judiasm in general. I knew once "real" Jew haters got involved the topic would shift from US political support and Israel to how anti-gun and liberal jews are...yep...they are "our only true enemy" right? |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 5:12:45 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: Great,more anti Israeli/Jew BS. You guys are so good at spin you should work for the Dems. or some other comies. Simple question. What conflict have we been involved in that Israel provided troops and/or supplies in any way whatsoever? As far as that goes, what has Israel ever done for the US? Wait...they share intel, right? How nice of them to provide intel on Iraq while our soldiers(and many other nation's soldiers) did the fighting and dying. For people who hold the military in such high regard you certainly don't seem to mind that our alliance with Israel seems to be remarkably one sided...at least when it comes to American soldiers dying, that is. This all makes sense now. Should have seen it sooner. You only want to help someone who can equally return the favor. I guess you wouldnt ever help someone out just to help them out. That is a HUGE problem in this country now. No one wants to just help someone else out. Its the whole, "Sorry that your being attacked and raped lady, but your not my wife/daughter/sister so I'm not going to get involved and help you out. It might inconveince me and you probably won't return the favor anyway. Your on your own." Why do people like you always think they have to be "paid back" for helping someone out? Has France and Europe ever paid us back for the 2, count it, 2 different times we saved them???? Its called being nice. |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 5:16:22 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: I have seven words for you assholes... Impressive!!!! yer scholarly use of "assholes" makes your point FAR more valid that if you refrained from cursing. [}:D] JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARM OWNERSHIP They have a larger commitment towards maintaining our right to keep and bear arms than you two fools Try READING sometime. Its VERYeducational. In my post above , I made account for JPFO types, and SPECIFICALLY excluded them as part of the anti-gun Zionist types. (Imbroglio and Garandman, and your 8,000 posts on AR15.com don't count as commitment) could ever have...what the f*ck have you done lately to preserve the rights other than bitch and moan and cause more devisiveness within the gun owning community? WOW!!!!! F*ck, too!!!! NOW I AM IMPRESSED!!!!! Son, you have NO IDEA what I've done to preserve firearms ownership in the USA. In teh last year alone, I've been involved in BOTH the legalization of CLass III in my home state, AND in overturning ATF tyranny in a VERY sepcific situation. Now, lemme explain what YOU have done. With your repeated cursing, and your inability to read what I CLEARLY psoted above, you have COMPLETELY discredited yourself as a blinded, bitter, angry person who just got jabbed in the ribs by the truth, and then squealed like a stuck pig. Other than that, I'm QUITE CERTAIN you are a fine individual. Really. QUITE certain. [}:D] ] |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 5:55:48 AM EDT
[#34]
garandman
What did you think about the information ilikelegs provided about the support and military co-op that Israel has given the US. ? Are they a good enough friend to America in your book ? |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 6:06:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: garandman What did you think about the information ilikelegs provided about the support and military co-op that Israel has given the US. ? Are they a good enough friend to America in your book ? When time allows, I'll go back and look. I'm ALL ALONE in another Scriptural thread, and its got me pretty busy. |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 6:13:45 AM EDT
[#36]
bug_splatter -
I went back for a quick look. On teh surface, they ALL violate the principles of George Washington's Farwell Address given in 1796 against entanglements in foreign politics. Even if all those are true, AND even if there is any value in them, they are ALL examples of foreign entaglements, which G. Washington listed as a sure way to destroy a Republic (and gee!!! Look, our repiublic IS INDEED being destroyed today. Maybe there's a correlation there??? Maybe not, but maybe. The scary thing is some people seem unwilling to look at any possible correlation, they only have agenda to guide their thoughts. Unless we llok for correlation, well NEVER be able to investigate causality) and EXTRA - Constitutional involvments in matters we should NOT be involved in. Good people can differ on those matters. I think in the future I'll refrain from dogmatic statements EXCEPT in matters of Scriptural interpretation, and the myriad of comments Scripture makes on "Israel" today. |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 6:22:10 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: bug_splatter - I went back for a quick look. On teh surface, they ALL violate the principles of George Washington's Farwell Address given in 1796 against entanglements in foreign politics. Even if all those are true, AND even if there is any value in them, they are ALL examples of foreign entaglements, which G. Washington listed as a sure way to destroy a Republic (and gee!!! Look, our repiublic IS INDEED being destroyed today. Maybe there's a correlation there??? Maybe not, but maybe. The scary thing is some people seem unwilling to look at any possible correlation, they only have agenda to guide their thoughts. Unless we llok for correlation, well NEVER be able to investigate causality) and EXTRA - Constitutional involvments in matters we should NOT be involved in. Good people can differ on those matters. I think in the future I'll refrain from dogmatic statements EXCEPT in matters of Scriptural interpretation, and the myriad of comments Scripture makes on "Israel" today. Ok, I just wanted to know. So many people think its just a oneway street with Israel and that they have given nothing in return. Some of the other countries we have helped truly have not given anything in return. I will alway think of Israel as a freind to the US. But I understand you think more along the lines of isolation, and thats ok. But if we are ever attacked again, with this thinking, can you expect any nation to help if we need it. That is if we actually practice this policy through out our history ? Im glad we haven't. |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 6:31:58 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: But I understand you think more along the lines of isolation, and thats ok. But if we are ever attacked again, with this thinking, can you expect any nation to help if we need it. That is if we actually practice this policy through out our history ? Im glad we haven't. Well, the entire premise of the [b]limited [/b]isoaltionism (roughly defined as naked SELF interest by the US) I support is that with a free market system, and a political system that KEEPS the wealth we generate here, in this country, we'll be so strong militarily and economically that we won't NEED other countries. No one would DARE attack us. The enriched citizens can then send money anywhere they want in the world, rather than having an abusive federal gov't STEAL it from them, and send it somewhere else. One SIMPLE illustration is Jewish peoples US tax dollars have flowed to Arab countries for some thiry years now. THAT IS WRONG. And a myriad of other examples of that IMMORAL redistribution of the wealth have been brought on by foreign entanglements. In reality, the very foreign involvments you seem to favor are the CAUSE of FORCING Jewish US taxpayers to fund Arab gov'ts to kill Jews. And yer surprised that people over there hate us???? THIS is EXACTLY what Washingtons Farewell address warned about. I posted it recently in this forum. Do a search on my usermane. You OWE yourself a reading of it. |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 4:50:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: but we all know where both of you stand on Israel and Judiasm in general. This "we" you speak of, is it the borg collective? I knew once "real" Jew haters got involved the topic would shift from US political support and Israel to how anti-gun and liberal jews are...yep...they are "our only true enemy" right? I post quotes DIRECTLY from the American Jewish Congress and a Rabbi pertaining to gun control and I am a "real Jew hater" now? That is a good laugh. Why would I be associating with Jews everyday if I hate them so much as you claim. Here where I stand, plain and simple: Israel: No more foreign aid to them or any other country for that matter. The annual $5 billion can be spent on OUR veterans instead of helping perpetuate a centuries old holy war. Jews: I don't care what religion you want to practice. Just don't go and try to violate my Constitutional Rights because "it is the word of god" or try to use "vicitm" status, like the ADL/SPLC continually does. |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 9:42:12 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: I have seven words for you assholes... JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARM OWNERSHIP And I have 5 words for you: Most Jews Are Anti-Gun. JPFO is a great organization but they are a tiny minority of "American" Jews. Whereever you have lots of Jews you have gun control. It's a fact. |
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