This was originally brought up in the "Pali terrorists up to their old tricks" thread.

I asked why we care about Israel.  I asked what Israel has ever done for us.  The answers that received ran from "because of cultural ties" to "they're fighting the same terrorists we are."


Here's the one question that will shed some light on our "closest, most trusted ally."


How many Israeli troops are in Afghanistan right now?  Where is our closest, most dear ally now, in our time of need?

Canada is there.  Hell, even Japan has sent two ships....how much has the mighty US funded Israeli Army sent?

"Israel is our closest, most trusted ally" is the standard, boilerplate, automated, canned response to "Why are we pissing off terrorists types by siding with their mortal enemies, the nation of Israel?"

And UNTIL we get that connection, we can continue to expect dead Americans by the WTC-sized crater hole full.

Not again!

Don't hijack my damn thread, gman.  I'd say this question is the litmus test of who truly are our allies.  

Let say, we sever all ties with Israel. Stop supporting and funding them. Do you think that's going to stop attacks against
America? Stop murders of our citizens traveling/stationed in the Middle East?

Not trying to push buttons, just want yours & Graves14 opinions on it.

s0ulzer0

HAHAHAHAHHAHA Yeah and Islam is the religion of Peace.....
G-man buying "Puts" in the travel industries option markets again?......
Oh yes by all means link the WTC The USS Cole The Pentagon The throats slit of our young girls The Bombing in OK City...How many other terror acts committed on US citizens directly as the result of our support of Israel?
[url]http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm[/url]
As soon as we cut Israel loose and let the muslims have at it...they wont continue in their global quests...or the torture & murder of Christians abroad...and those Islamic centers spread accross America via petro dollars those are to promote the message of peace and love and kinship with Christians..

Graves...your narrow-minded post seems to imply that Israel has no desire to aid the United States in its war on terorrism.  

ilikelegs hit the nail on the head...it is the US that is constantly tieing the hands of Israel's foreign policy and use of force to protect its interests.  If it was up to Israel, they would do everything in their power to hunt down and kill every arab that even uttered the word terrorism...and they would do it in any climb and place.

Also, haven't you ever heard of Mossad?  I'll tell you, they are worth a sh*tload more than the CIA is these days.  

There is really no reason for any American to not support the Israelis now, in the past or in the future.  Well, I can think of one reason and you and I both know what it is...

I agree with ilikelegs and Scipio.
I doesn't require very much brain activity
to figure this out.
[:\]

Your posts sound a lot like DaMan's only you've
added an extra sentance to your response's.

But Canada has five times as many people and is much richer than Israel; obviously, Israel does not have the military means to go on such ventures unlike mighty Canada.  [;)]

BTW, ilikelegs is right.

Israel is the plum and Jerusalem the crown...if the muslims can capture Jerusalem and dominate the temple mount...they will erect a mosque...they will do this to all the holy places of both Christianity and Jeudaism....this will galvanize muslims worldwide...will be their rally cry..will be the smell of blood of Jews and Christians in their nostrils..it will inflame them...on the other hand defeat them here...crush them here....and will help to put out the fire of their bloodlust..
We need to crush them where ever we find them..their allies their friends their cohorts..if we do not then that is when we will see the crater over and over...
Islam is a nation of warriors...and they do not respect weakness..it only encourages further encroachment...deal with them from a position of military strength and you can win...appease them and you will fight them forever..until either you or they are dead....IMO

That's right G-man it's more important not to "piss people off" than to do what we think is Right.

Janet Reno is pissed off you have guns, better turn them in.

It's amazing how many sides of this issue can be played all in the name of Israel.

Isn't the general consensus on this board that we're at war with Arabs?  Who would be a more natural partner in that war than Israel?  Yet now we're worried about offending the "coalition" by expecting Israel to do it's part?

What kind of grade school logic is that?  Do you think by not involving Israel in Afghanistan, that Arabs somehow overlook that we fund Israel?  They know who's side we're on.  They're not quite that stupid.

It's a cop out.  And not a very good answer.



Heres another question...what conflict has Israel EVER supported us in, period?  What "peacekeeping" mission have they joined us on?

I think reducing the entire middle east to a sheet of radioactive glass would solve many problems.  That includes Israel.

No, I don't believe severing ties with them would stop attacks against us.  Overwhelming force would, however.  The question remains...why are we babysitting Israel?  Let them sink or swim on their own.

Of course.  I really like the last paragraph.  Anyone who doesn't support Israel is a filthy anti-semite.  That's what you're saying, right?

Because all 'right thinking' citizens know that Israel is our *only true ally*.  Is that how it goes?  You're right...there's no reason for any right thinking American to resent 5 billion of their dollars going to Israel.  

Isn't it odd how I could be anti-French, and that would be fine...yet if anyone dares to question Israel, they're a vile anti-semite who just wants to oppress poor Israel.  Your song and dance is getting old, and you can only cry wolf so many times.

There's nothing more amusing than a demagogue calling someone narrow minded.  There's no reason or logic in your response, only emotion.

It is THE answer, but not a very satisfying one.  After all, we have this great ally, bought and paid for, that we are afraid to let help us.

Now what are we paying for again?

You obviously don't know anything about history,
Or about world politics, or world religions.

And on the subject of grade school, since summer
is here and you are at home now, Didn't your parents
tell you to mow the lawn and stay off the computer ?

As to your next Question "conflict has Israel EVER supported us in".

None militarily, but they do vote in our favor
during UN votes. But I dought you know about
any of that.
Depends on your point of view of what support is.

And since the best part of you has been flushed,
I dought this answer will suffice you.

Our *best ally* has never supported us militarily?  That's interesting, isn't it?  

Support usually means they try to do for us what we try to do for them.  But at least they're voting in our favor, eh?  Why should they die when they can just vote?

Post from Graves14 -

Well now [u]that[/u] is a well thought out answer![:D]

Why don't we become more like Hamas and the Hezbollah and just get into the wholesale slaughter of innocent Israeli women and children?

Nor does anyone with a grain of sense!

But is you really believed that, you would be more anxious to get Israel to play at least a surreptitious role in the War On Terrorism!

Then why not give Israel what she needs and tell her to take the leash off and kill both of our nations' enemies?

Fine, but each nation should remember its commitments to each other, and we have said that we desire that they never sink, so we'd better teach them to swim. I truly think, however, that we have a great deal to learn from them regarding handling of terrorists and terrorists' threats.

Eric The(Obedient)Hun[>]:)]

Yeah right.  Israel only gets about $5,300 million now.  Maybe another $10,000 million or so ?

Letem kill each other till they run out of people.  Just cut off the money.

It is not only about money Graves...its also about ideology and commonality of goals.  Of course money plays a huge role, and I agree that Israel, minus "Divine Intervention" most likely would not exist today were it not for US economic and military aid.  However, that said...

I never said that Israel is "our only true ally" and  really never hear anybody else make such a bold generalization for that matter.  But to say that they are not one of the US's strongest allies, especially in terms of a war against Arabs is grossly flawed.  Thats right, in a war against Arab nations, to have Israel on our side is to have a great asset.  It is the policy of our own government that strongly "encourages" the Israelis to not act in ITS OWN INTERESTS.  

Israel does not tell the US to "shove off" because, as you correctly state, they need all of the Dollars that the US gives them in aid, however, again you simplify the issue.  Part of being a good ally is compromising a bit of your own policy, strategy and even security in an effort to acheive a common goal.  It can't be easy for Israelis to sit back and watch their countrymen die everyday, when there are measures that could be taken to stop the violence...however, they agree to conduct themselves according to a "larger" plan and I hope that they are making the right decision.

If you ask me, it is the US government that is politically selling out the American people in the war against terrorism.  Putting pressure on Israel to negotiate with a proven regime of terrorism led by the worlds number 2 terrorist pig is not only a crime against Israel, but its a crime against citizens of the US...what happened to Bush's oath to destroy terorrism whereever it lives and any regime that supports it?  I wonder what would happen if another country told us to "play nice" with Bin Laden or the Taliban...

And I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that your negative (I don't want to single you out because your opinion is quite common place) opinion of Israel is based solely on "your" tax dollars that go to them... Don't forget, they are "my" tax dollars as well...

I mean, come on Graves...you know those dirty Jews...they are plotting to take over the US, right? They already control the media, hollywood, the banks...its just a matter of time...right?

Economically, politically, and culturally the US shares so much in common with Israel...definitely more in common with the Israelis then with the Arabs...shouldn't your anger be directed towards the Muslim countries of the world that have sworn to destroy the US?  You put 2 and 2 together and anger towards Israel over "Tax dollars" just doesn't make sense...not in these days anyway...

Isreal is the only Democracy in a part of the world that is completely chaotic. Whether Isreal perticapates in our battles or not, it would be insane to allow the only democratic nation in that region to fall at the hands of godless thugs who just assume everyone should live like them or DIE !

That is why we should and do support Isreal.

C'mon, [b]SubDude[/b], would you rather have our troops fighting in the Middle East or the IDF fighting on our side in the Middle East?

'Cause the way things are shaping up, Israel is gonna be in a major regional war sometime in the future.

(Don't ask me [u]how[/u] I know, let's just say I read about it somewhere)

And we will either be at the side of Israel or we will be sitting on our duffs doing nothing, but nothing, to stop the possible slaughter of people with whom the United States has identified for the past 54 years.

Once again the United States and Europe will hear the screams of dying Jewish men, women, and children.

The only difference will be that before when those ghastly sounds were heard, 1935 - 1945, there was nothing that the US and Europe wanted to do, or could do, about it!

This time, it will be simply that we don't want to do anything about it. Period.

Call it fiscal responsibility for the sake of [b]SubDude's[/b] wallet, call it a return to Constitutional Foreign Policy for the sake of [b]garandman[/b], or call it just becoming a true friend to the world, and an enemy of God.

The good news, however, is that for the Elect's sake, Israel shall be spared, and never again will the Holy City be trampled underfoot by others.

Eric The(BringItOn!)Hun[>]:)]

There is a good reason that Israel is not fighting in Afghanistan. We asked them to not to. Being that Afghanistan is a very Muslim country, surrounded by similar Muslim countries, having Israeli soldiers in the mix would only serve to break up the loose alliance we have secured to use their military bases and air space for support. We did the same thing during Desert Storm. Israel was getting scud bombed but held back in order to let the allies do their thing.

Now I just wish Israel would put off building in the occupied territories so we could build Arab support and finally get around to taking out Saddam. And maybe work our way north to Iran and generally clean house in the entire region. I don't care if it is only temporary or fake. Once most of these antagonist have been taken care of, most of the money and support will disappear for Palestinian militants too. Then the issue of how they really feal about us will be moot. There will be few options for terrorist, starve to death or negotiate peace. While they still have lots of money and plenty of political support, you expect this thing to drag on for the next hundred years. Attrition.

I'm amazed that someone can post that many sentences yet say nothing of substance.

Give me one concrete piece of evidence that says subsidizing Israel has ever, in any way, benefited the United States.  Can anyone do that?

I'm also amazed that people as preoccupied with 'manliness'(for lack of a better word) and who hold soldiers in such high regard would find it acceptable that Israel has remained our silent partner for so long.  People were all over JW's for not joining the military...Yet Israel has never, once, helped us in any sort of conflict, and that's perfectly ok.  Why is that?

Because the United States is a Democratic Republic. If more citizens than not decide we as a Country support East Knockerstan for instance WE DO.

More citizens want to support Israel than not, so we do. End of Story.

Israel also gives us "intelligence" we can't get other ways. If all those "terrorists" weren't trying to kill Israeli's, who would they be trying to kill??

My guess, if Israel ceased being a nation tommorrow, those terroerist wouldn't stop being terrorists. Who do you think they would be after then?

Only 'innocent Israeli women and children', Hun?  I guess the millions of Arab women and children who would die is an acceptable loss.  






Give her what she needs?  How about Israel getting what it needs on it's own?  Isn't the 5 billion a year we already give her suficient to kill a few desert dwellers?  Perhaps Israel doesn't want off of that leash...it's hard to justify 5 billion a year without a big bad Arab boogeyman, isn't it?



I'm glad you feel that way, Hun.  *What* exactly is Israel's commitment to us?  That's the key to the whole issue.

Israel has been fighting THE WORLDS war on terrorism by itself with the blood of its own soldiers and citizens for over Fifty years...

It takes nerve for someone to accuse Israel of not supporting the US militarily or in any regard for that matter...

Please.


Israel is a socialist nation. That's common knowledge.

And what goals do we share with Israel, outside of the recent 'War on Terror?'



On the contrary.  I've read Israel described as "our only ally", our "only true ally", "our best ally", etc etc, more times than I can recount on this board and in the media.

What does Israel bring to the table in the war against Arabs?  Are her soldiers dying?  Is she supplying us?  What exactly is her role?

And as I said, anytime Israel wishes to be free of the big, bad, United States they simply have to tell us no.



If another country told us to "play nice", we would have the ability, if not the will, to tell them to kiss our collective asses.  Once again, Israel is free to do whatever she wishes.  Such are the wonders of sovereign nations.

cont.

Don't forget Jewish ritual slaughter, the porno industry, and the government.  What a convenient shield for Israel and Jews as a whole.  If a Gentile dares to question them in any way, of course the Gentile is a filthy, filthy anti-semite(tm).  They are, after all, the chosen people...who am I to question them?  I think I'll go pick on a safe people...the French perhaps.



What exactly do we share in common with them?  Economically?  Yes, if you mean that a large portion of our economy finds it's way to Israel.

Culturally?  I haven't seen many Americans screaming at a Wall lately, have you?  Please share the cultural links between us.

Who do you hate more?  The person who you know is out to destroy you, or the backwards little brother who sponges off of you while laughing at your generousity?

Post from Graves14 -

Sorry, that's not my side. I would be begging the Palestinian people not to hitch their wagon to Arafat's Star, but they have for some reason stopped listening to US.

The cost to Germany of making Hitler their Fuhrer was the deaths of hundreds of thousands of their own women and children. What a price to have to pay for a history lesson that was obvious from the beginning!

Germany couldn't get it done in 1914 - 1918, when the United States was only a factor for a year 1917 - 1918.

How could Hitler have even thought it possible to win in 1939, what it couldn't win before?

Well, his idiocy, and the German people's suffering, was the price Germany paid for his fuhrership!

Eric The(ATadBitPriceyForMyTastes)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Graves14 -

Sorry, that's not my side. I would be begging the Palestinian people not to hitch their wagon to Arafat's Star, but they have for some reason stopped listening to US.

The cost to Germany of making Hitler their Fuhrer was the deaths of hundreds of thousands of their own women and children. What a price to have to pay for a history lesson that was obvious from the beginning!

Germany couldn't get it done in 1914 - 1918, when the United States was only a factor for a year 1917 - 1918.

How could Hitler have even thought it possible to win in 1939, what it couldn't win before?

Well, his idiocy, and the German people's suffering, was the price Germany paid for his fuhrership!

And the Palestinian people's suffering is the price they appear to be willing to pay for Arafat's ass sitting on soft cushions in Ramallah.

Eric The(ATadBitPriceyForMyTastes)Hun[>]:)]

And only you are privy to this intelligence?  I'm looking for something better than some vague suggestion they share intelligence with us.

Graves... you say, "...I haven't seen many Americans screaming at a Wall lately, have you..."
and...
"Who do you hate more? The person who you know is out to destroy you, or the backwards little brother who sponges off of you while laughing at your generousity?"

sounds pretty anti-semetic to me...Not all people who dislike Israel are anti-semites, but you clearly are...why don't you keep talking, that way there will be more room for your foot in that big trap of yours...

What about a people whom many Americans have identified with for all of human histor?  The Irish.  Why don't we supply the Protestants there?  Why don't we do anything?  Terrorists run loose there too...apparently some countries are more equal than others, eh Hun?



Oh good god.  I think you just ripped my heart strings right out of my chest.  



What about the millions that were killed by the Chinese or Russians?  Makes the 6 million figure look rather small, doesn't it?  I guess their screams just weren't loud enough, eh?



Can you give me any reason to do anything about it?  As I've said before, the killings being done on both sides in Israel are small time compared to some of the World's other problem areas.  You don't seem to very concerned with that, however.  

Care to answer the questions instead of screaming anti-semite at me?  Incidentally, your dislike of Arabs would make you an actual anti-semite.

Engage in debate.
Have your questions answered.
Dislike the answer.
Scream anti-semite at the top of your lungs instead of an actual response.
Repeat.

Nice tactic.

I dislike terrorists who happen to almost always be middleeastern arab men between the ages of 17 and 40.

I engage in debate
Have my questions answered by a biggoted fool
Call it like I see it
and withdraw to read your further posts that prove my point...

Post from Graves -

[IrishBrogueAccentOn]Well now, Paddy, me lad, it would be a wee bit different if the IRA had brought tha' Troubles to Manhattan, would it not? Sure![/IrishBrogueOff]

I don't believe they've asked us to, have they? It's been rather quiet over there lately and we shouldn't do anyhting to disturb [u]that[/u]!  Not so, in the West Bank and Gaza!

Nope just different facts for different folks.

If there was no Great Britain, we might do a lot of things with both Irelands that we don't do now. Why? Because we defer to Britain's handling of an internal problem.

Eric The(Cornish)Hun[>]:)]

Sorry Gman, but we piss of Islamic terrorists by having troops in the holy lands, a.k.a. Saudi Arabia, at the Saudi Arabian monarchy's request since they don't want to have to spend the $10,000,000,000 (that's Billion with a [b]B[/b] for those that can't count that high) that Kuwait had to pay to repair their oil fields after Sadam tried to play a game of "grab the oilfields."  That might explain why 14 of those 19 terrorists were Saudi Arabian.  How many of them were Palestinian again?

It wasn't until we started a military offensive against Bin Laden and the Taliban that Osama started in with the "free plastine" crap because the tought it would bring more Muslim countries to his side, but they've proven they give two turds about Palestine as long as those Palestinians don't start crossing into their territory.  All his previous rantings were about getting the evil Americans out of the holy lands and destroying the Saudi monarchy.

As much as everyone hates it, with the worlds two largest known oil reserves in Saudi Arabia and Iraq respectively, we must have allies in that area because of our reliance on oil.  And until about 10 years ago, the only ally in the region we had was Israel.  Even though the US gets most of it's oil from South America with an increasing percentage coming from Russia, if the world's oil supply is destabilized it effects us all.

And as far as the Japanese being there, they and the Europeans get about 60% of their oil from the Middle East, so they damn sure better be there helping to insure peace in the region.  It's in their self interest.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

FrankSquid... If you are going to make a judgment on Israel at least get your facts straight!  I can not believe how misinformed your knowledge of the 6 day war is...who taught you that stuff?  A Neo-Nazi?

The armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan brought their armies ti full alert and mobilized them on Israels border...war was emminant...

In an effort to survive, Israel launched a preemptive strike and kicked the shit out of all three, nearly trippling in size in 6 days due its brilliant military victory...

Although Israel fired the first rounds, the Arabs were no doubt preparing to invade...this is fact!

Franksquid:

How dare you question anything related to Israel?  Now you're a vile Neo-Nazi, or at least an associate of theirs.  Next they'll compare you to Bin Laden.  You're not allowed to make a judgement on Israel with any facts but those of Israeli sources, by the way.

I'm going to go punch my neighbor in the face, because he's no doubt thinking about throwing leaves in my yard.  He has three piles of leaves massed by my border.  He's never done it before, but I plan on winnning a brilliant militant victory.

If nothing else the fanatical devotion shown to Israel, and the Israel can do no wrong attitude will end support for that backwards little country.

Graves...your posts have degenerated to the point in which they no longer deserve serious consideration...

You say,
"I'm going to go punch my neighbor in the face, because he's no doubt thinking about throwing leaves in my yard. He has three piles of leaves massed by my border. He's never done it before, but I plan on winnning a brilliant militant victory."

Your source of history must be the same as Franks... The 3rd Reich Public Library...

It's called satire.  I'm not sure what the yiddish word would be for it.  I'm sure you can fill me in.

I love what you're doing.  Frank asked a simple question, and made sure to say "maybe I'm misinformed" a few times, and now you're calling him a Nazi.

Your posts are highly manipulative.  You want to squash any dissent, no matter how innocent it may be.  And your draconian urge to insult, ridicule, and trivialize anyone who disagrees with you while avoiding actual debate is going to backfire eventually.  You're no less of a zealot than the average Muslim.  

Still no one has answered exactly what we receive in exchange for our generousity to Israel.