(Or more likely I have my information wrong.)

Religiously, I'm an Agnostic with a deep belief in God but believe in no formal religion.  I am no expert on religion.

Now did not God promise Israel to the Israelis in the Christian Bible ??  I believe that answer is yes ??

In the Koran, did not God promise Palestine to the Palestinians ?  I believe that answer is also yes ?

Further, I believe Israel and Palestine must be the same place (roughly).

'IF' the above is true seems to me that God probably did promise the land to both Palestinians and Jews but far from being an error he intended for the land to be shared by both.

Course I'm probably wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time...

the_reject

The promise of the land to Israel was a CONDITIONAL promise. Obey, and you will have ETERNAL possession of the land. Disobey, and you'll lose the land. (I don't have my list of texts readily available, but I beleive its Jeremiah 7 or 14(among others)  if memory serves))

Further, the New testament CLEARLY teaches that the Old Testament land covenant with Israel was intended to point men to Christ, because NO ONE could meet the conditions of the land covenant. (See Galatians 3, Roamns 4, Romans 2, Hebrews 8 etc)

A case can be made that with the Christ covenant in effect, the land covenant is nullified. This would be in line with much of New Testament doctrine.

This question you raised, is the VERY HEART of the matter for evengelical Chrsitian support of Israel. A proper Scriptural understanding of the matter would DECIMATE support for Israel in this country.

Good question. Answer THIS question, and you'll have solved the whole puzzle.

I think that God has a very different version from the above quoted ones.

Ah... can you tell me, subsailor, where in the Qoran Allah promised a land called Palestine to the Palestinians?

Btw, there is NO ONE MENTION of Jerusalem in all the Qoran as a holy site...

Oh, goody!!!

Are you wanting to discuss Scripture verse by verse????

CUz I can't never get anyone to "come out and play" in a serious Scriptural discussion.

If you want God's "version" you go to God's Word. And I'd LOVE to have THAT discussion with you (or anyone else)

How 'bout it Paolo?? We can start in Galatians 3.

Ready???

[:D]

Where's Eric when we need him?

[:D]

Eric won't engage in Scriptural discussions with me.

He has his reasons, which I respect.

Anyone else?????

When it comes to Israel and Palestine....God have a big headache like the rest of us.


Maybe Rodney King have the answer..."Can...Can we all get along?...."  [}:D]

Or maybe those of us who wish to can participate, and those who don't wish to participate can....move along WITHOUT COMMENT.
[:D]

I believe both chapters speak of Isreal as well as the chapters in between. Just to throw something in here. Because Isreal chose not to follow Jesus the Gentiles were able to gain salvation.(Thats the way I understand it anyway)

No Paolo, I cannot tell you where in the Qur'an any promise of land was made as I am not familiar with that religious works.  Please notice I put a (?) after my sentences indicating I was QUESTIONING MY OWN STATEMENTS.

It doesn't matter what "god" promised.  These are consequences of free will.

I believe the land that is now Israel is not mentioned in the Koran (None of the holy sites mentioned in the Koran are in Israel).  Also, "Palestinians" are a recent invention.  Arabs didn't give a crap about Israel until the Jews moved in.

Obviously both are pieces of fiction written to satisfy the desires of their followers.

OK - very good comment. Goes to the heart of the Gospel.

Ultimately, it was God's plan for Israel to disobey Him, lose possession of the land, (Jer 7 & 14) the Gentiles be grafted into the tree called "God's Israel" (Romans 11, Galatians 6)  so as to provoke the Jews to jealousy (Romans 10) , so they would FORGET about earthly, physical, possessions, (Colossians 3) and turn to Christ.

Its a beautiful thing God did (and is doing)

Let me add this -

God's plan was to bring Jews and Gentiles TOGETHER in Christ, with the SAME inheritance - a heavenly one. That TOGETHER, Jews and Gentiles could praise God.

Unfortunately, my Christian brethren are urging them to "go for the gusto," grab the land, and as a by-product, YET AGAIN miss their Messiah. And in the process, drive a wedge in between those whom God intended to unite.

It does the Jewish peoples wrong. And I take exception to it.

I can tell you... in no place. I read the Qur'an (in the Italian translation) and not all the [i]sura[/i]s but many of them:

1) I didn't find any sign of the peaceful religion that Tony Blair, Bill Clinton or (sorry to say) G.W. Bush mentioned in their speeches.

2) There is no word about any Palestine...

3) About the Dome of the Rock as the place from where Muhammad ascended to the heaven, the place wa started to be the actual one much later. Some sources said that the legend was spread after the Islam took place in Palestine.

If you look the historical maps of Palestine, the one mentioned in the bible does not include any Islam culture. The land was on the West and on the East bank of the Jordan River and divided into two kingdoms: Judah and Israel.
The British Mandate was including even a larger area: north up to Lithani river, and part of the actual Iraq and actual Saudi Arabia.
The region was splitted in 1922 to give birth to Jordany. Many of the actual population of Jordany is palestinian, as Rania, the wife of King Abdallah of Jordany. The family of the king was a nomadic noble family that had little to do with Palestine or Jordany, but after all they were arabs. Then 1947 there was a second split of the remaining region, two states with different population: one with jewish majority and arab minority, one with arab majority and jewish minority.
While the first split (arab-on-arab) was accepted, the second (jewish-on-arab) was never accepted.

This says a lot...

I don't believe in the bullshits (like Garandman) about any covenant between G-d and Jews to grant the ownership or not of the land. Because they were born from the same sick [i]mentaliut[/i] that makes for Arabs blasphemous to sell conquered land to infidels or jewish settlers to set new colonies in the WB, the last thing Israel needs. But I believe that the culture and the beliefs of any Jew have deep right in this land. And they MUST find a place in that land were jewish tradition are kept and hebrew is spoken, like Americans and Italians do with their own culture.
After all, Israel is a tiny country, if compared to the immensity of the rest of the Arab lands...

See, now THAT is a shame. Cuz if you remove the Covenantal promise of the land, Israel loses ALL its support from evangelical Christians.


So before you discount that covenant, realize that WITHOUT IT, Israel loses its #1 supporter - evangelical Chrsitians. And without them, that $3.5 - 5.3 billion in US tax dollars dries up REAL fast. Not to mention ALOT of tourism $$$$, and free will gifts to Israel. Here' lemme take that knife out yer hand, 'fore you cut Israel's throat.  [}:D]



In a twisted sort of way, I wish you were right. But alas, God is wiser than both you and I, and He deemed it so. Even if you call what He says "bullshits."


BTW, you didn't answer my question - Do ya wanna go verse by verse and SEE what God actually said re: Israel and the land???? Oh, PLEEEEEASE say "yes."

[:D]

Your problem is thinking that the muslim god and the jewish god is the same guy.  allah says jews must die so obviously he's not the jewish god.  at most one of them can be correct.

God does NOT make errors.

[img]http://www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/ba11.jpg[/img]


Kali's blackness symbolizes her all-embracing, comprehensive nature, because black is the color in which all other colors merge; black absorbs and dissolves them. 'Just as all colors disappear in black, so all names and forms disappear in her' (Mahanirvana Tantra). Or black is said to represent the total absence of color, again signifying the nature of Kali as ultimate reality. This in Sanskrit is named as nirguna (beyond all quality and form). Either way, Kali's black color symbolizes her transcendence of all form.

You have two different books, one inspired by God, the other inspired by a false god. One is wrong, one is right.  Which is it?  It CAN NOT be both.
I'd tell you which book/God is right, but then I'd be a single minded, bigoted zealot.

yeah, well get in line, pal, cuz *** I **** was here in the "single minded, bigoted zealot "   line first!!!!

[BD]

You mean, you'd be a Christian?

No, wait, tell me more...  [rolleyes]

the_reject

You know, this is one of those threads where I can either agree, or at least understand, where the writer is coming from on every message.  That's nice and I fear all too rare in these Israeli/Palestinian strings.  

G----man, I think what Paolo was trying to express in an earlier post was that the average Israeli Jew isn't particularly concerned about biblical prophesy, or what G-d said to whom and when.  Certainly the Israelis welcome the support of American Evangelicals, but that doesn't mean that the Israelis share their views. In that sense, the average Israeli is like the average American;  a believer in an Almighty, but not overly involved in religion on a day to day basis.

Also, to get to the original question here,  I have never seen any commentary or information on the Koran that even mentions the Holy Land,or Jerusalem.  I've even recently perused the Islamic websites, and the only mention of that piece of land is that the Palestinians must have a land of their own, and in the more extreme sites, that the Jews should be driven from the land and all killed.

I do know one thing for sure. In their prayers, it isn't Jerusalem that that Moslems are bowing to.  It's Mecca. Well, Islam already has it's holy city. I just wish  they'd let us Jews (and Christians for that matter) have ours.

I promised nothing to either group.

The works you mentioned are written by man.

Dukota is the only one with a clue.

What kind of fish?

It sure did not take you long to find me, ilikelegs.

I might say you are my most loyal follower.

in direct answer to the topic question:

can you say- [red][size=6][b]SATAN?[/b][/size=6][red]

HA HA HA HA! STICK TO GUNS MAN..........PLEASE[%|]

BTW:Christian Bible? just what would that be,and how is the first not the same as the book used by Jews or 90% of the Koran (bible is old Greek for book)

You see,they are the same book by the same people,there goes your conflict.

For this to really make since we would need to go all the way back to Abraham and his impatient wife,Grandman can tell if he wants to I'm not that patient.

s. Pants, this may never make "since"....................

Yes, God did make an error.  But luckily Eric The Hun was able to straigten it all out....just ask Hannah.[;)]

Sgtar15

Correct.  

Truly a strange coalition of current supporters of Israel - the Jewish left and the Christian right.

No No No! S. Pants not s. Pants,use the big S!

Sub:

You got that right!

I've no doubt that you are correct in your statement but our HUN has been conspicuously absent from this thread ??

Gee subbie, you forgot the Jewish center and right, and the Christian center and parts of it's left.

Actually, the Jewish left ain't so solid for Israel; or haven't you noticed that all the Arabs that have been or are being tried for terrorist acts in this country are being defended by left wing Jewish lawyers?

Shhhhhhhhhhhh! not to much so fast, they are but weeeee simple folk.
In a day or two weed eaters will go on sale at Home Dopt and they will forget all about this God stuff.

Regarding the lawyers, I've noticed that left wing Jews prefer murdering, butchering left wing dictators as opposed to murdering, butchering right wing dictators.

Hitler ordered the killing of 6 million Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, etc., and this fact is constantly mentioned.  On the other hand, Stalin killed about 20 million and hardly a murmur is heard.

What the is the deal with this right left thing,it's like people think there is some type of line and on one end is the left wing thinkers and on the other the right.

The idea that all good people end up at some mid way point is a bit nuts,one could never think anything other that what others want him to.

People how are evil are just that and they do evil things and have evil ideas.
You can see these people by looking for them and if you know right from wrong it's easy to see them for what they are.
You will need no lines to help you,you don't need to ID them as left or right that is just a bull sh!t game.

As for left wing Jews they are just Jews with evil ideas,they bow to man.
On what you call the left, most love people above all others and this is the idea they push in the hope it can be used to there end.

To these people man is there religion,they like to tell us what is truth as if it needs help and they what to tell others how to think.

So even if you agnostics think you know a little more than the rest of us,with all the things that man has done in it's own name it may be you how is in error.

You are more right than you know.

Israelis welcome the naivete and monetary support of Christians.

As for many Jews themselves, they consider Christians "Gentile dogs" and consider my Christ a bastard, and a phony.

But "Christ"ians dreamily float along in blind support of those who hate their Christ. Mystifies me.

(Note: Unsaved Israelis don't hate Christ more than the rest of the unsaved world)

I believe it reasonable to believe that those AR15.com folks who frequent the General Discussion are probably better informed and more inquisitive than the population as a whole.
I also believe that we, these same people, believe ourselves more individualistic than the population at large.

However, most attitudes and ideas expressed on Israel directly 'mirror' the positions taken by our national media.

Propaganda works.  (To some degree we are all susceptible.)

...Now grandman,my friend....can I call you my (religious zealot) friend?..........I've heard now that John Gotti is dead,the catholic church is the largest 'organ'ized crime family(incestisthebest).[rolleyes]scripture....shmipture[rolleyes]

The error is that the Muslim "god" is the moon god or satan.  There is no contradiction.  The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and Satan have frequently been at odds.  Planerench out.

And now the G-----man's anti Jewish, as opposed to anti Israel, attitude shows up.  For the record, in 60+ years of life, after being around 1000's of Jews (including 3 years as youth director of the largest Jewish congregation in Atlanta) I have NEVER heard or seen the phrase "Gentile dog", or "Jesus is a Bastard" until I read his post. Not from Jews, not from atheists, not even from Muslims.

I've never heard a Jew express any derogatory remarks about Christianity.  About the actions of those who profess Christianity, yes; about the belief system,no.

We do think it rather strange the Christians and Muslims are so insecure about their religions that they have to try and talk other people into joining them.  We don't seek converts (tho we do accept those who come to us of their own volition).  We do not seek converts because WE DON'T BELIEVE WE HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE PASS TO HEAVEN. We believe that anyone who lives his life following the Ten Commandmants, even a pagan, can recieve what ever blessing is in store after this life.

The fact that this belief has bothered so many non Jews over the years has caused us a boatload of problems.  I wish it were otherwise. I don't put down, or hate Christians for what they believe or how they pray.  I just want them to leave me alone to believe and pray in my way.  You want to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah.  That's fine with me, but stay the hell off my case if I don't.  

An Israeli friend of mine put it this way many years ago;"When the Messiah comes, we'll ask him (or her), 'Is this the first time you're here or the second time.' If he says it's the first, you owe us an apology. If he says it's the second time, we owe you an apology."

I'm sorry about the resentment you feel towards my people.  It really doesn't seem very Christian of you (I am NOT being sarcastic), and I truly hope that you and those who feel as you apparently do can get beyond it.



SHALOM

Just answer me ONE question -

When the doctor told me and my wife that she had cancer, was he showing hate, or goodwill????

What did God know ...and when did He know it...

Is the God of Israel the very same god of Islam?...and is Jesus Christ God?
Which book is the final authourity?..the Bible or the koran?....

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob promised the land to the descendants of Abraham..(God did not specify spiritual descendants nor is His promise null and void over their rejection of Jesus as God and Messiah) Revelations speaks of what is in store for Israel..the physical land...as well as the people..the physical descendants of Abraham...

The bible speaks volumes of what is in store for those who ultimately reject Jesus Christ the Messiah..

The Prophet Mohammed of the desert is a false prophet and as such satan is his teacher..the koran is a false gospel..and as such any so called promises are trumpt by the God of the bible- The Christ The God of Abraham...Isaac and Jacob

Its a hard thing... but as the Children of Israel the Hebrews were told by God to go into the land and kill its inhabitants and possess the land as an inheritance...This is God's planet (not man's) and He can do with it as He likes and He will...and though we might not enjoy the consequences of our actions..we still have to live with them and.. there it is..feel sorry for the dispossed if you want to...but they were judged fair and square by God .. if the Lord sees fit to replace current inhabitants with other inhabitants He will He has a plan..and regardless of whether or not it meets our approval or needs its what is gonna happen..

What we need to find out is what is His plan for our lives..and how to live.
Its in the bible..if one is been called to look and sustained in that looking.