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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:40:17 AM EDT
[#1]
interesting. i'll be staying tuned. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:44:54 AM EDT
[#2]
What an odd thing for a manufacturer to say....
It's hard to imagine defending a dynamic carjacking, for instance, without SOME possibility of having to shoot through glass. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:46:50 AM EDT
[#3]
The critical defense is the one with the polymer cap so it doesn't clog, right? Do they say the same thing about regular old Gold Dots? |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:46:56 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
What an odd thing for a manufacturer to say....
It's hard to imagine defending a dynamic carjacking, for instance, without SOME possibility of having to shoot through glass. Yep. Given the choice, I'd rather have a round that will penetrate barriers, than one that would expand well. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:47:28 AM EDT
[#5]
I still would like to see it tested. I just gave some to a friend of mine in return for letting me take his .45 Long Colt revolver to the range.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:48:29 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious. Per the article (it's even underlined) HCD is untested against barrier materials. Any manufacturer's claims are probably nothing more than liability dodging. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:51:04 AM EDT
[#7]
Hmm.. another Glaser Safety Slug type of thing.
Glad you caught that painless.. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:51:14 AM EDT
[#8]
Test Test Test Test Test !
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:52:59 AM EDT
[#9]
Damn, I just bought my father a box of that.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:53:11 AM EDT
[#10]
Begs the question... will it not penetrate those barriers?
Will it rapidly expand and loose all velocity? |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:56:40 AM EDT
[#11]
We definately need a test.
The 9mm Critical Defense is what I have in my carry gun. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:57:26 AM EDT
[#12]
If anyone knows how to answer this, it's you OP.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 5:59:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers?
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:00:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
We definately need a test. The 9mm Critical Defense is what I have in my carry gun. Assume any SD ammo will NOT perform until objective tests prove otherwise |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:00:13 AM EDT
[#15]
What do they mean "fail"?
Either of two things will happen, the bullet nose will collapse, and there won't be any expansion, but the bullet still strikes the bad guy and penetrates more than normal. Or, the bullet will expand at the barrier, penetrate, then hit the bad guy with a expanded bullet. In either case, the bad guy takes a hard hit from full power round. Not seeing a fail here. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:00:28 AM EDT
[#16]
Sounds to me like we should all hold hands and thank a Lawyer.
It also sounds to me like they are not saying the ammunition wouldn't penetrate barriers, only that it's not guaranteed or tested to penetrate those barriers. Agree with above poster on liability speak on behalf of Hornady. I have a hard time believing ANY 9mm round wouldn't easily pass through several layers of rocksheet or a few pieces of low-gauge tin metal - polymer expanding cone or not. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:00:29 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
A friend of the Box O' Truth sent me a note with this link attached. http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm A Word of Caution about Hornady’s Critical Defense Handgun Ammunition
- by Shawn Dodson According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition: "...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail." –– NRA's American Guardian TV I was surprised that it is dated in 2006, as I have never read this before. Even discounting the false statement included (in red), the rest of the statement is what the person wanted me to test. He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious. I was surprised that this ammo is not rated to penetrate these rather common barriers. I had a lot of hope for this bullet. Does anyone know if their position has changed on this issue at all? They're ammunition manufacturers, not attorneys.... |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:05:15 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
A friend of the Box O' Truth sent me a note with this link attached. http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm A Word of Caution about Hornady’s Critical Defense Handgun Ammunition
- by Shawn Dodson According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition: "...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail." –– NRA's American Guardian TV I was surprised that it is dated in 2006, as I have never read this before. Even discounting the false statement included (in red), the rest of the statement is what the person wanted me to test. He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious. I was surprised that this ammo is not rated to penetrate these rather common barriers. I had a lot of hope for this bullet. Does anyone know if their position has changed on this issue at all? They're ammunition manufacturers, not attorneys.... For a major manufacturer of ammunition, I would expect that they have at least one lawyer on retainer, if not employed by them. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:07:54 AM EDT
[#19]
http://www.hornady.com/store/critical_defense
hmmm... Hornady Critical Defense ammunition is the pinnacle in self defense ammunition
The Hornady Critical Defense line of personal defense ammunition has added 22 WMR, 9x18 Makarov, 44 Special, and 45 Colt to the lineup. Loaded with the patented FTX bullet, these bullets provide consistent expansion through heavy clothing, and won’t plug up like conventional hollow points. The 22 WMR delivers terminal performance rom a short-barreled firearm comparable to the 380 Auto Critical Defense load. The 9x18 Makarov is optimized to deliver superior expansion from it's 90 gr FTX bullet. The 45 Colt Critical Defense load has been maximized for performance in short-barreled platforms, and is a fantastic choice for the very popular Taurus Judge. Both the 44 SPL and the 45 Colt Critical Defense loads offer real “man-stopping” power.
Critical Defense provides reliable expansion every single time.
Inconsistent and unreliable performance from conventional hollow point bullets.
Doesn't mention who makes the 'unreliable' conventional hollowpoints. 
Is this shtick coming from Hornady or their web / marketing developer? |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:09:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers? AP? 
Some ammo seems to fare better in testing after going through barriers than others. Golden Saber has a reputation for this. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:09:56 AM EDT
[#21]
To be fair there is no context with that statement. It seems to be the answer to a question but we don't have that question.
Are other rounds "rated" for barrier penetration by their manufacturer? If so I haven't seen it. I'd be interested in a BOT test on it anyhow. It would be interesting to see what it does compared to other self defense/LE offerings in light of or despite this comment. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:11:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Is any round designed to shoot through barriers? Bonded cores. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:12:43 AM EDT
[#23]
It just sounds like some unusual honesty from the manufacturer to me, not that Hornady is ever dishonest. Anyhow it's nice to know what to expect from it before you buy it. If you want to shoot through glass, car doors or walls you can buy something better for that still.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:15:20 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Does anyone know if their position has changed on this issue at all? Nothing has changed. XTP is not consistent and neither is CD. When it comes to HD/SD ammo, it is a 0 or 1 event. Will if work and perform, or not? When Hornady has to send out "new" boxes of ammo to test, when the box being tested does not work, I call that not. There are better choices for HD/SD ammo. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:15:43 AM EDT
[#25]
"people of the court, the defendant shot the victim through his windshield––-when even the manufacturer says he would go to jail for doing that!"
Thanks for the legal help, Hornady. I may plink off my CD ammo and get some Gold Dot.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:20:04 AM EDT
[#26]
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out?
Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:21:52 AM EDT
[#27]
It would seem that in a lot of places shooting someone through glass or a barrier would land someone in jail.
If the person is trying to make an escape, it is wise not to shoot. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:23:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: I still would like to see it tested. I just gave some to a friend of mine in return for letting me take his .45 Long Colt revolver to the range. [email protected] [email protected] |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:23:35 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
It would seem that in a lot of places shooting someone through glass or a barrier would land someone in jail. If the person is trying to make an escape, it is wise not to shoot. That's really the point of my question, and I think what Hornady was trying to say. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:23:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Sure. You're sitting in a car, stopped in traffic, and someone walks up and points a gun at you. Are you going to roll down your window to shoot? Their 'marketing manager' needs to stick to technical facts, and not offer legal commentary. [email protected] |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:24:31 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers? .357 SIG 
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:25:22 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... That's one. If I'm sitting in my car, parked, and some bad guy runs up and points a gun at me, I will shoot him through the window, if necessary. If a bad guy is in my house and is shooting at me from behind a corner, I will shoot through the walls to hit him. There are thousands of examples where doing such a thing is completely justifiable. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:28:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
It would seem that in a lot of places shooting someone through glass or a barrier would land someone in jail. If the person is trying to make an escape, it is wise not to shoot. A guy shooting at you through a window has free rein to kill you without you returning fire? Good to know. It is a silly statement for a manufacturer to make considering all of the various and countless scenarios that might happen in a self defense situation. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:29:13 AM EDT
[#34]
Yep, the crap is designed to be shitty. Why everyone is all gung-ho over it is a testiment to good advertising. "Ooooo, look at the pretty pictures!"
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:31:47 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Guy outside your locked bedroom door, trying to bash it down while yelling that he's gonna kill you and your family when he gets inside? Would that work for you????
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:31:57 AM EDT
[#36]
Considering all of the testing of defensive handgun ammo includes the worse case scenario of 12 or 14 inches of ballistic gelatin, it seems stupid to make a statement like don't shoot through a wall.
I've seen some arms that are thicker and more dense than a wall. N one is saying don't shoot through an arm if that is the only path to the vitals. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:34:35 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Famous footage of a home invasion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM More footage here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&feature=related |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:39:02 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... That's one. If I'm sitting in my car, parked, and some bad guy runs up and points a gun at me, I will shoot him through the window, if necessary. If a bad guy is in my house and is shooting at me from behind a corner, I will shoot through the walls to hit him. There are thousands of examples where doing such a thing is completely justifiable. OK, I'll by that. I've got Gold Dots in my carry guns, but Honadys in a couple of house guns. Maybe I'll change them out. I like the Gold Dots anyway. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:40:53 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
It would seem that in a lot of places shooting someone through glass or a barrier would land someone in jail. If the person is trying to make an escape, it is wise not to shoot. A guy shooting at you through a window has free rein to kill you without you returning fire? Good to know. It is a silly statement for a manufacturer to make considering all of the various and countless scenarios that might happen in a self defense situation. I didn't say anything about not returning fire. I don't frequent places where people shoot at me. If you are behind glass and there is shooting, I suspect the glass will get broken if the people can shoot. Many bullets deflect on glass. Many will break glass. The first shot breaks glass, the second ends the fight if things work like they should. We live in a litigious society. Manufacturers make statements like these all the time. It isn't a big deal. But, if it bothers you, don't use their ammo. That leaves more for me. Based on the data I have seen, it is the best self defense ammo available for my uses. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:43:08 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It would seem that in a lot of places shooting someone through glass or a barrier would land someone in jail. If the person is trying to make an escape, it is wise not to shoot. A guy shooting at you through a window has free rein to kill you without you returning fire? Good to know. It is a silly statement for a manufacturer to make considering all of the various and countless scenarios that might happen in a self defense situation. I didn't say anything about not returning fire. I don't frequent places where people shoot at me. If you are behind glass and there is shooting, I suspect the glass will get broken if the people can shoot. Many bullets deflect on glass. Many will break glass. The first shot breaks glass, the second ends the fight if things work like they should. We live in a litigious society. Manufacturers make statements like these all the time. It isn't a big deal. But, if it bothers you, don't use their ammo. That leaves more for me. Based on the data I have seen, it is the best self defense ammo available for me. Actually, in most cases projectiles will simply make holes in glass, especially car windshields and the glass found in home windows. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:43:18 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Is any round designed to shoot through barriers? This... Seems like a non-issue, although he should have left off the bit about probably going to jail... |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:47:33 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: But, if it bothers you, don't use their ammo. That leaves more for me. Based on the data I have seen, it is the best self defense ammo available for me.
Honestly, it wouldn't bother me. If someone was shooting at me and all I had was FMJ, that is what I would return fire with. I've spent a lifetime of shooting a lot of various shit with a lot of different kinds of guns. Sometimes 2 rounds fired back to back do different things. Besides if Hornady CD ammo was what I had, I would just about guarantee that it would be at least equal to whatever ammo was being slung back at me. 
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:50:33 AM EDT
[#43]
Maybe intended for home defense so that it doesn't OVER penetrate??
Good for when you can see and ID the target without ventilating the whole house and endangering other occupants? Just thinking out loud... 
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:51:28 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Famous footage of a home invasion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM More footage here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&feature=related Good shoot, except maybe when he was shooting the windshield of the guy trying to leave. That might be hard to resist doing, but also hard to defend later. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:54:50 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Good shoot, except maybe when he was shooting the windshield of the guy trying to leave. That might be hard to resist doing, but also hard to defend later. What was going to stop that guy from getting a rifle out of that car and shooting at the homeowner. Shoot till the threat has ended. As far as I'm concerned that guy was still a huge threat. He had a car and maybe a RPG for all I know. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:54:53 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Test Test Test Test Test ! This. I have been carrying this ammo, but have been considering a change. I think I'll stop by the gun shop this afternoon and buy something else. Any suggestions (9mm)? |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 6:58:16 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious. Per the article (it's even underlined) HCD is untested against barrier materials. Any manufacturer's claims are probably nothing more than liability dodging. BOOYAH! O_P has something to do today. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:00:05 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: I have been carrying this ammo, but have been considering a change. I think I'll stop by the gun shop this afternoon and buy something else. Any suggestions (9mm)? DPX, Gold Dot, Bonded Golden Saber. If you are willing to buy online, HST. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:01:50 AM EDT
[#49]
In on this... I carry this in my pistol. I'm glad to have found out now then have to find out the hard way. I would love to see some tests done though.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:04:56 AM EDT
[#50]
If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail.
I m not sure if that line is just incredibly short-sighted or an excuse for the performance of the product. |
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