Along with a Philippine nurse who was being held hostage and 4 of their kidnappers in a resuce attempt.
[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20020607/wl_nm/philippines_hostages_dc[/url]

GW is already vowing revenge against the Abu Sayeff [url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&516&e=1&u=/ap/20020607/ap_on_re_as/us_philippines_1[/url]

According to reports US Special Forces were not part of the raid itself, but US helicopters have been called in to evacuate the wounded and to airlift aditional Philippine troops to continue the pursuit.

I went to the same Bible College that Martin and Gracia attended and knew them.  I was good friends with his youngest brother who was in my class.

We are devastated and joyful at the same time.

Pray for Gracia.  To gain freedom and lose her life's partner at the same time and after all they had been through together has to be unimaginable.

patsue

Well here is some explination.

In spite of statments from the Philippine Army and Government this was not the result of a rescue attempt.

Instead a platoon of Scout Rangers were following up a sighting- possibly of a camp-by US survailance aircraft. They had no idea that this was the group carrying the hostages- and also containing the leader of Abu Sayyaf.

One of the soldiers was interviewed by the AP and is quoted in part in this CBS News report:
[url]http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/29/attack/main510398.shtml[/url]

This article:
[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020607/ap_on_re_as/philippines_us_hostages_16[/url]

Seems to contradict the CBS story above, and so does this one from Reuters [url]http://asia.news.yahoo.com/020608/reuters/asia-109273.html[/url]

Does anyone know what is going on down there?

http://www.inq7.net/brk/2002/jun/08/brkpol_7-1.htm


http://www.inq7.net/brk/2002/jun/08/brkpol_8-1.htm

http://www.inq7.net/brk/2002/jun/08/brkpol_14-1.htm

Thank you very much for the links!

I am sorry if this offends anybody, but those people had no bussines being there in the first place. Americans have grown so arrogent that we think even our religion should be imposed on the world, I'm sorry but thats wrong. I have no problem with anybody practicing the religion of their choice. if it makes you feel good, if it brings meaning to your life go for it. but dont try to push it on me or anybody else. A very wise man once said "religion is like a lift in your shoe, it can make you feel good, but we dont need to go around nailing lifts on the natives feet"
I know that these people think they are helping out in other ways with the poverty stricken masses of underprivilaged country's. but dont you think there are plenty of underprivilaged folks here in the good old USA that could use your help too. we cant save the world. too big too many problems. maybe we should save ourselves first.


[:)>]

Amen!.. I mean, here here!

maybe they should not have been there trying to help those less fortunate and I don't disagree with not pushing religion on anyone, BUT the greatest fear of anyone outside the U.S. should be that an American citizen would accidentally or intentionally be injured or harmed.  this should be on both a national or individual level.

If the rest of the world will not respect us, U.S. retaliation for any harm to a citizen sould be their worst nightmare.

It is unfortunate that most of the hostages were killed, but after being dragged through the jungle at the end of a dog chain for over a year, i think that i would welcome a rescue attempt.  

Huntsclubsec, you are an idiot.  Martin and Gracia were loved by all the believers that they had a relationship with numbering in the thousands.  Why don't you do a little research and find out that Martin grew up in the Philipines, was a missionary pilot and was snatched out of a resort bungalow by the terrorists while he and Gracia celebrated thier anniversary.  Could have been anybody.  They weren't taken because they were missionaries, they were kept because they were Americans.  They weren't "forcing" their religion on anybody.  What a stupid thing to say.  

Always got to be a jackass to make some half baked comment.

Very sad, no matter how you look at it.

After the discussions we had about Daniel Pearl, I'll be interested to see if anybody has the guts to "blame the victim" here too.

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=119333[/url]

[img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20020607/mdf46681.jpg[/img]
"Hi, mom!"

[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020607/161/1nsu0.html[/url]

The Philippines is 90% Christian with the minority muslims concentrated in the southern most island of Mindanao.

What I understand is the Burnhams did their work in the northern part of the country among Christians.

They were abducted from a resort in Palawan, in Central Philippines (also predominantly Christian) - about two days away by boat.  They were not forcing their religion on anybody!


The Abu Sayaff is using the religion and independent homeland issues to "legitimize" their kidnap for ransom activities. Cases of kidnappings of local businessmen for ransom are rife...they just don't make it to the international media.

Its not a simple matter tracking and engaging the Abu Sayaff due to triple canopy jungle, rough terrain and the monsoon season which has started. Also, they are quite adept at small unit warfare with their original founders (mostly killed in firefights with the Philippine Armed Forces and Police in the past years) veterans of the mujjahadins that fought in Afghanistan. They have no shortage of recruits though - they can easily entice unemployed young men with the ransom proceeds (several million US $) they received which Libya paid for the release of the foreign hostages abducted from the Malaysian resort of Sipadan two years ago.

That's highly debatable. Just because someone shows up with a bible in their hand, doesn't mean anyone really wants to listen. The audiences attention is usually baught with gifts or money for the community.

Missionaries have caused more damage to indiginous people then almost any other single event in world history. Did the missionaries in the Philipines deserve to be killed? Not really.....but just because THEY view it as a "calling" deosn't mean the rest of the world has to buy in to that. "It's a calling" for some people to strap bombs to themselves and kill civilians.....doesn't make it right. "It's a calling" is not an exceptable explanation to anyone other than the believers of that particular religion.

On a micro-level, I know my reaction when someone stops by my door peddling their religious crap, so put that feeling on a national level, and a less than friendly reaction to being force fed someone elses religion comes as no surprise. Again, did the missionaries deserve to die? No. Based on the circumstances of why they were in the Philipines do I have much sympathy for them? Nope.

It does not matter what the Burnhams were doing in the Philippines, the fact of the matter is that they were kidnapped to be ransomed.

This is how the Abu Sayyaf sponsor their kind of terrorism. Most of you here do not know that these so called kidnappers will hold anything for ransom be it livestock, crops, vehicles as well as people. It is only in this case where the hostages were white Americans that the international media took notice but trust me this things are just as common there as mosquitoes.

I have said many times before my sentiments about muslims and how they could not be trusted. I have dealt as well as lived amongst them and they are nothing but a bunch of selfish, arrogant, ignorant a$$holes who could not be trusted with a cut nail off your toe.

I can understand what [b]gunpdr[/b] is trying to say because I know too well how they operate having been there during my early teens. What the military has to do is get off their a$$e$ and wipe them out. They should not let politics dictate how they conduct their operations. So what if it will be a massacre, massacre only applies to people and these sonnababitches are nothing but animals.

[vent mode off]

M4,  You are wrong. the idea that missionaries have been detrimental is Liberal propaganda.  If you really check out history you would find that the "christianizing" of peoples has made for a much better, free, stable & prosperous cultural environment in which to live.  The founding ethics of our own country being a paragon example.
   

Liberal propaganda? Well i know my political tendencies, and liberal I am not. But whatever groups/people or parties may happen to agree with anti-missionary sentiment, I agree with them, on that subject.

As for the founding ethics of the United States. Undoubtedly Christianity was the theoretical model by which many important decisions were made. And mythology has played an important role in the developement of other great cultures(The Greek Empire, the Roman Empire......). I just think it's an outdated model, based on superstition, supernatural absurdities, mixed with some significant historical events. I believe that humans should be expected to base future decisions on a far more rational, logical model.

And no, I don't believe that these people should have been killed. I should have been more clear on  that. The pigs responsible should be hunted and killed.

Let's give the local people a little credit for having free will.  

And if the missionaries incorporate some community aid while bringing their message and also see that aid as part of their 'calling', what is the harm?

BTW, the comparison of misionaries following their calling to terrorists fails badly. Why? Well for one thing, the missionaries don't often go around blowing people up.  

Maybe in your heart you feel that spreading the word is really just feeding 'crap' to the poor little helpless natives,  but the missionaries aren't widely known for for tying the people up while turning them into Manchurian Candidates for Christ.  So I think there's a wee bit of difference between the two groups.


Anybody got examples of "events causing damage to indigeous people" that are in world history?

Then M4 can document the extensive damage that he believes missionaries have done.

And we can compare the figures.

What reaction is that, anyway?   Is it same annoyance you might feel at someone soliciting magazine subscriptions?  What's different about the Watchtower encounter? You don't fear that some evangelist is going to [b]force[/b] you to believe something you think is "crap", do you?  




The earlier responses have pretty much wiped out the idea that they were chosen because of they're work in a part of the country different from where the assholes came and different from where they were kidnapped.

prk....

As for people coming to my house peddling religion, it is far more a matter of principle than anything else. People who go door to door are trying to sell you something you may not have known was available, or something you could conveniently buy right from your home. Religion on the other hand is peddling self rightiousness, with the assumption that if the homeowner doesn't currrently believe in "the" religion, they're going to drop by to point you in the right direction.

I don't know about you, but I don't need total strangers making assumptions about me on that level....and if they do, then to have the balls to come to my house to tell me about it. Not interested.

Here's a link you might find addresses your question rearding my assertion that missionaries have caused a great deal of harm....
[url]http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/mission.html[/url]

So what. People die every day.
GG

M4, you are ignorant also.  You can sit in your nice comfy home and critize those who might show up at your door because for whatever reason, they think they have something worth telling someone about.  I don't agree with everyone who shows up at my door but I am kind and considerate.

Do you know ANYTHING about the anamistic religions of some of the interior Philipinos?  They live a life you know nothing about obviously.  How they live a life of constant fear of retribution from the various dieties they serve?  How in the name of pleasing thier ancester Gods they slaughter eachother at times, treat their women like cattle, worse actually.  Tree huggers love to cry about how missionaries "ruin" the people groups they minister to.  They treat natives like they are some archeological find that must remain untouched or some herd of almost instinct animals.  These peoples are REAL HUMAN BEINGS who for the most part live very short, violent, lives in fear.  Heck you ought to hear some of the stories I have heard from saved natives about how they used to treat women.  Makes the taliban look like Sesame Street.  Believe you me, I have talked to many personally and when these people exchange thier fear ridden lives for the freedom of Christ, they NEVER want to go back.  Give these people some credit, heck what you said was close to racist. Martin and Gracia had a marriage of adventure doing something that had value instead of what most of us do, living lives for ourselves and thinking that whoever dies with the most toys wins.

And again, when it's one of your loved ones impacted you might show some compassion but frankly I doubt it.

[sleep][sleep][sleep][sleep][sleep][sleep]

[b] To M4, and others with same opinion[/b]

On behalf of all born again christians throughout the world, I apologize for our lack of showing you compasion in you time of need!

In reading your "responses", specifically "M4", it would appear that you have had about enough religion shoved down your throat, and about enough bible thumping on your head to last a few lifetimes. Please forgive us for our lack of wisdom.

But my friend M4, you are missing the hole point of the gift that god has given man. Religion is "mans" best attempts to try to have a relationship with god. RELIGION will always fail, to many rules, regulations, and trying to perform to some standard, that quite frankly is non obtainable.

Christianity though, is gods gift to man. God sent his son Jesus, to die for us, so that we may have a relationship with god.

Know before you assume that I am trying to shove religion down your throat, I am not.

I feel bad for you, and others with the same mind set, because it is obvious that life has hardened your hearts, and you are unable to see the gift that god has given man.

You would seem to be another person who has fallen prey to the acts of religion, instead of love. Love is what god offers, Love is what Jesus offers, Love is why jesus died for all.

So on the behalf of all christians, not religion,because religion is much different then christianity, I ask for your forgiveness.

I guess I let my emotions get the best of me also.  Sorry M4.

[b]Huntsclubsec, you are an idiot.[/b]

Ok, everyboby is entitled to their opinion. here is mine, In the past I have seen some close friends give their lives in the name of chritianity,they could barley afford to feed themselfes and their children, yet they gave almost 80% of their income to the church (local church, been around for 50 odd years.)and if for some reason they could not give, the church told them they were sinners who did not work hard enough for the lord. you see it on TV every sunday. " for $$$$$ your soul is garanteed a place in heaven".
if you give the church all your worldly possesions and go to this poor country, tell the savages (who have existed for 2000 years happy in there own beliefes)that they will burn in hell if they dont believe in your god.
dont come to my door telling me I will burn in hell for not giving and believing.
in my opinion, God doesnt need my money, I dont need to get together every sunday with a bunch of people and listen to someones iturpratation of what is written. I keep my beliefes to myself and I am comfortable with that, I fault nobody for their beliefs. this is America and everyone is entitled. but like I said before, lets fix our country before we try to fix the world.


[b]I doubt they would have been there if the "natives" hadn't wanted to listen.[/b]

if it hadnt been for years of pesty missionaries, they would have been content with their original beliefes. believe me.

and by the way [b]patsue,[/b] I'm glad to see the christians represented here by such kind and benvolent folks. we the heathen are so happy too find out that I am an idiot and a jackass acording to you. as you may not have noticed, I did not see any reason for name calling in my opinions. I did not reviel the fact that you are mindless, bible thumping sheep incapable of indepentent thought, hiding behind the word because you are afraid of the real word.
now did I.


[:)>]

[b]sanc·ti·mo·nious[/b]
Pronunciation: "sa[ng](k)-t&-'mO-nE-&s, -ny&s
Function: adjective
Date: 1603
1 : affecting piousness : hypocritically devout; also : indicative of affected piousness


ex.: “a solemn, unsmiling, sanctimonious old iceberg that looked like he was waiting for a vacancy in the Trinity” (Mark Twain).



[b]pomp·ous[/b]
Pronunciation: 'päm-p&s
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
1 : excessively elevated or ornate
2 : having or exhibiting self-importance : ARROGANT
3 : relating to or suggestive of pomp


ex.: “He's a pompous arrogant old prig who's totally incapable of taking a joke.”



[b]condescending[/b]
Function: adjective
Date: 1707
: showing or characterized by condescension : PATRONIZING


ex.: “Those who thought they were honoring me by condescending to address a few words to me.” -F. W. Robinson.

[b]Reply to DScott[/b]

I can only guess by your response that you disagree with my first post.

I suppose that is ok, since you have the right to disagree, but next time why dont you try attacking the facts that I said, instead of trying to attack my character, if you did this then you would not show your own ignornance so fast.

I am not posting to argue with anyone, so I suppose if it makes some feel more masculine, then sure flame on. I am just stateing my opinion,

By the way with your response DScott it would also appear that you yourself have fallen prey to religion, and your heart has been hardened by life itself.

For since you recieve a gift of love,and reconsiliation, as sanctimonious,pompous,and oh cannot forget condescending.

Exactly. (as in projection)

Huntclubsec,
I lost my temper because of your attitude towards the Burnhams.  Sorry about that.

So I deserved your like spirited response.
We Christians are human just like anyone else.  We sin also.

patsue

Dont get me wrong, I feel for these people, I can imagine what their life has been like over the past year, I feel for their children at the loss of their father. I do not wish these things on anyone, even my own enemies. I just think that these people, who so want to help the world, should help out in their own back yard before they go across the street(so to speak)

[:)>]

Sorry, I forgot to add "presumptuous".

My beef with Christians is the constant need for prosetylizing... it's built in to the belief system, it seems, but annoying as all get out.  The assumption that someone *needs saving* is amazingly arrogant as well, as if Jesus is the only way to "know god" and that you feel "bad" for me that I just don't see the "gift" I've been given.

Thanks for caring, but me and mine are doing pretty well as it is with what we believe.  As I'm sure you and yours are with what you believe.  To each his own...

For example:



Do you see what I'm talking about?

Or maybe I'm just cranky today...   [:D]

[b]

Response to DScott [/b]

Well it would appear that you seem a little crank, that is ok, we all have our good days and bad days.

You know you seem to be a very intellegent man.

You say that you are tired of "christians" protstelyzing, well you know what I am too.
Funny as that might sound, I really am.

To me people need to "see" the love of god, before they can "accept" the love of god, and when people are going around just trying to force the bible down peoples throat that turns people off to christianity faster then just about anything else.

Examples of showing gods love are being kind to people in need, really listening to people to find out what there needs are,not shoveing the bible down there throats, praying for someone, building a friendship with someone,letting them see the works of Jesus Christ in your life,and  Haveing parents that show the love of god in a childs developing years. To me these are all aspects of spreading the gospel of jesus.

Because once people see that something is different in your life, people will want to know, and not feel like something is being forced upon them. Christians need to be like a magnet that pulls people to them, instead of like a magnet that repells people from them and want to make those people puke!

All through my years I have had so many people shove the bible down my throat it made me sick. I even had a SGT, my dorm manager in the Air Force tell me about god, my response to him was you can take your jesus, and shove it up your, well I think you can finish the sentence. Our dorm manager was pretty cool, so he was a litle lax, he let you express your own opinion, and if he felt you were crossing the line, he would warn you instead of writting you up. I was 20 at the time.I am know 31. I look back and can see that my heart was so hardend that I could not even see what this man was trying to do. It took years of my heart softening to finally see what gods gift is.  So I can totally understand what you are saying.

You say that it is "arrogant" for me and others to state that Jesus is the only way? Well that all depends on perspective. If ones heart is so hardended that they are unable to see the gift that god has given to people, then most would assume that people saying that "Jesus being the only way" is arrogant! But I, nor any other christians made up the plan, God did.

So it really boils down to perspective on life, and believeing that there is something much more greater and powerful then our lives here on earth. As humans we need to be saved, our souls and spirits need to be saved from eternal dambnation. We need to be saved from the price we must pay for our sins. That is why jesus died for us, he took all of mankinds sin upon himself and paid the ultimate sacrifice,death, so we might be saved from hell. Because the price we must pay for our sins is hell, the price we must pay for not liveing our lives for god, as god designed it, is hell, as narrow,arrogant,bible thumping,fire-and brimestone speaking as this sounds, it is the truth. Some in there lives relize this, and some do not. God gives us the free will to decide.

So forgive me if I to am preaching some, some of this is hard to explain without explaining some facts that god has stated.

So I hope you have a much better day, and I respect your opinion.

Forgiveness is not necessary. I respect your sentiments, and as I form my own opinions, I do my best to form them on the uniqueness of each one. On an individual basis. I appreciate the tone of your post, and the sincerity.....my respect goes out to you.

No apology necessary. This subject taps in to the core belief systems of each of us. We can respectfully disagree at any time......one of the most beautiful parts about living in a free society is our option to do that.

We are all brothers and sisters here.

Well, see, that's my point.  Christians gotta preach.  [:)]     That's fine, really, and I do respect the fact that you have these beliefs and they've made a difference in your life.  I think that's great for you!

It's good to see that you understand that becomes offensive when others don't share your beliefs.  However it's done, it's the attempts to convert someone from *their way* to *your way* that are the most annoying.  That's where it becomes arrogant, condescending, and presumptuous in my book, as if what I already believe is clearly *wrong* and what you believe is so clearly *right*.  

There are about 4 billion non-Christians in the world today, mnore or less.  Is it presumptuous to assume that they're all wrong in their beliefs?  You've either got to accept the fact that there are a lot of different viewpoints on the whole God issue, or get busy preachin'!   [:)]

Anyway, thanks for the civil discussion, and have a nice day!

BTW, I'm not so cranky today! [:D]

Huntsclub you are completely ignorant of the facts of this case.

They are missionaries- but they didn't operate in the area they were kidnapped in.

When kidnapped they were vacationing at a dive resort. They were not the only Americans kidnapped. A Southern California businessman named Guillermo Sobero was also taken with them. He was beheaded by his captors 9 months ago.

It was pure conincidence that the Burnhams were missionaries, it had NOTHING to do with why they were targeted.

So stop with the BS. I don't much like right wing Christianity much myself but it has NO bearing on this case.