[url]http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/2002question/fleischer.htm[/url]

Another CYA attempt?  What if, just for the sake of argument, the hijackers actually smuggled guns aboard those planes like it has been rumored?  If the boxcutters are a total fabrication, what else is?

BTW--I still contend Flight 93 was shot down by a sidewinder, so I guess I'm just a conspiracy nut, after all...

Okay, so where's the evidence that they had guns?

Oh, there isn't any.  Maybe it isn't a conspiracy then.

phoenix missile?

damn guess that "gun show loop hole" is getting out of hand...!!

What about a kamikaze Pelican?

I'm not sure what this guy is getting at.  Barbara Olsen was on the flight that crashed into the Pentagon.  She got on her cell phone and reported the hijackers were carrying knives.

Since all the terrorists were part of the same organization and trained together, all 4 groups probably used the same tactics.

The ones in Florida took classes on knife fighting at a gym. Their teacher reported as much to the FBI.  The terrorists targeted very lightly-booked flights, to ensure the lowest probability they could be physically overpowered.

So what is this clown's point?  He's like those Frenchmen who insist a plane DIDN'T crash into the Pentagon, or the people who claim there was never any moon landing, based on their lay facile analysis of a photograph.

If plane DIDN'T crash into the Pentagon, then where is Barbara Olsen and all the people who got on that flight?  If it wasn't a plane that created all that damage, then WTF did it? A truck bomb?

If the hijackers used guns instead of knives, is this a sinister cover-up orchestrated by the NRA?  Or does it really make no difference at all?

No, you're just a negative, paranoid, miserable idiot.  The only fabrication here is that you have a brain capable of rational thought.

As are you, the guy who wrote this article is a fool.  There is also no evidence of guns, knives, or bombs either.  In fact, the destruction was so total, there's no evidence of anything, one way or the other.  Also, the wreckage, what little there was, was also mixed in with all the building rubble, so there would be no way to determine what the hijackers used.  Use your freaking head for something besides a hat rack and stop posting this moronic drivel.

Maybe they used trained tigers, or ghosts?

There's no evidence that says they didn't...

(you idiot)

What makes you think that flight 93 was shot down?

Did you see the impact crater? It was a vertical nose dive into the ground...not a belly crash, as though they were trying to keep the plane in the air.

I do believe that it [u]should[/u] have been shot down, but it wasn't.

I could of sworn that some of the passengers on the flight called 911 and said the plane was hijacked and that they slit the throat of one of the attendants.  That would be evidence of some sort of sharp object.

LOOK! How are we supposed to get a decent conspiracy started if you keep clouding the issue with facts?

But they found one of the hijacker's passport, unsinged, on top of the rubble. Hmmmmm...

Actually, the passport was found amongst debris several blocks from the WTC.  Is it possible that when the portion of the flaming debris from the aircraft exploded out of the opposite side of the building, that the passport was thrown alongside the other debris that penetrated the building?  Yes, I think it is plausible...and if I recall correctly, the passport was singed.

Edited to add the following URL, excerpts and comment:

[url]http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Sep-16-Sun-2001/news/17011253.html[/url]


NEW YORK -- The passport of a suspected hijacker was discovered near the ruins of the World Trade Center, authorities said Saturday as exhausted rescue workers clawed through the wreckage, searching unsuccessfully for signs of life.

FBI Assistant Director Barry Mawn did not disclose the name on the passport or other details, but the discovery prompted an intensive search for evidence blocks from the towers that were brought down in Tuesday's terrorist attacks by two hijacked planes.



Back at the trade center, details of rescuers' grisly finds since Tuesday began to emerge. Among them were a pair of hands, bound together, found on a rooftop, authorities said.

The New York Times reported Saturday that one rescuer found the body of a flight attendant, whose hands were also bound. Another worker told the paper he had found the remains of people strapped to what seemed to be airplane seats.


If human remains (a solid mass) managed to be thrown through the opposite side of WTC, I find it believable that a passport (a solid mass) could as well.

Truer, more insightful words have never been spoken.

Would you be interested in some Deutsche Telekom shares I'd like to sell for no reason whatsoever? Not only are they incredibly valuable, they are also of the rare P.T. Barnum Signature Edition.

Believe what you would like to there Sport.  I already stated my opinion.  [tinfoil]

Barbara Olsen was part of the conspiracy too.


The Florida gym teacher was part of the conspiracy too.


The WTC rescue workers were part of the conspiracy too.


The NRA was part of the conspiracy too.


Kamikazi Pelicans were part of the conspiracy too.


Trained tigers and ghosts were part of the conspiracy too.




Don't you people GET IT?!?

Don't you see how deep it goes?!?

It's a CONSPIRACY I tell you!!

[b]A CONSPIRACY!!!


SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!

IT'S [U]PEEEEOPLLLLLE[/U]!![/B]

[%|][whacko][(:|)][%|][whacko][(:|)][%|][whacko][(:|)][%|][whacko][(:|)][%|][whacko][(:|)][%|][whacko][(:|)]

...ahhh excuse me, but I think it was ME, NOT Johnny_Reno, who said it was trained tigers and ghosts.

Thank you.

[stick]

LMAO! Trained tigers and ghosts! - what a hoot!

Seriously though, I heard from a well-informed source at the mall that the Israelis have been training Kamikaze Pelicans.  I can't say who this person is, but he works in the automotive department at Sears and is very well informed.

Also, 6,000 Pelicans didn't report to work at the WTC on 9/11...just a coincidence?  Well, if you think so, I've got some Deutsche Dumkopf War Bonds personally signed by Willie Messerschmitt for you.

LarryG, RikWriter, I didn't come on here for the personal attacks.  They are unwarranted and not at all constructive to any kind of discussion on the matter.  I am not a paranoid conspiracist, nor am I an idiot.  By saying such things, you're just using a juvenile tactic for trying to shutdown useful dialog on the subject.  Does it always make you feel good to know you had the "last word" or "told that guy, didn't I"?  Pretty trashy behavior, all in all.  

I don't recall ever saying anything about tigers or ghosts that was very relevant, either.  

NOW...back to the matter at hand.  The reason I ask is that we still live in this "the American public can't handle the real truth" USA where our elected officials and appointed bureaucrats think it is their duty to lie to us.  It is not, and never has been their job to lie.  That's Soviet Union crap, very un-American.  I don't like it because it takes us ever closer to the kind of world that Orwell warned us about.  As long as they're allowed to get away with it, the later consequences will be that much worse for all of us.

I doubt very much guns were used in the hijackings, but there is pretty good evidence that knives where.  So what if they used K-Bar type knives?  That means that there was a huge security lapse for which the airlines are liable, and that's pretty much all the writer was saying.  The coverup was "boxcutters"--because those were still more or less okay to bring on the plane.  Instead of telling the truth, we were fed yet more lies.  That was my only point--we still aren't anywhere near the truth on any of this stuff.

As far as Flight 93, we've been over it and over it.  But for those won't didn't see it the first time--the only evidence I bring forward is debris in a lake (pond, whatever) several miles from the crash site and the woman who reported "an explosion on board" right before the plane augered in.  Plus, the government refused to release any meaninful information from the flight data recorders until many months later, after they had had all the time in the world to edit them, make phony new ones, whatever.  It's not nutty to think that something went on that they haven't been forthcoming about.

If you fly in this country, you should be concerned because this bullshit obviously isn't over yet.  Your plane could be the next one shot down.  If you think that's fucking funny, or you think that I'm a paranoid nut with a tinfoil hat, keep it to yourself.  You probably don't get out much, and Al Qaeda (or who the hell ever is doing it) isn't targeting your trailer park, so you have no reason to worry about what is true and what is a lie.

The rest of us are being inundated with crazy-ass warnings about nukes, poison gas, biotoxic weapons, bridge explosions, poisoned water supplies, ground to air missiles, you name it.  Why?  So far there was 9/11 and some non-related anthrax "attack."  That's all there was.  Yet we are continually encouraged to be fearful of *everything*.  Why?  I would simply like to know if our government is really so totally incompetent that it is making this shit up, or what the deal is.

Then you shouldn't post this tinfoil-hat bullshit.  It's ludicrous and anyone with an IQ over room temperature would see that.

Yes, the plane was shot down. I wish our government could admit it. We all could accept that. Instead we get the usual "need to know" disclaimer, as if we didn't need to know. The government wants a deeper dependance from a population of terrified citizens, and they continue to try to drive up the fear with daily warnings. What they will get is entirely something else. Why should they be now trusted with our security after their own building was hit? I got my own security covered. Anything that I can't defend myself from I consider an act of God, and I can't worry about things in that realm.

The attacks are warranted.  There is nothing constructive to add to one of your lunatic posts.  Everything you post is negative and paranoid.  According to you, everything is a conspiracy.  If you didn't come across that way, someone might think you have something to contribute.  You ARE a paranoid conspiricist and an idiot.  The only thing juvenile is that you think that you ever post anything that would lead to useful dialog.  It's got nothing to do with feeling good, it has to do with calling a spade a spade.  

There is no evidence of boxcutters, just like there is no evidence of guns, knives, samurai swords, nor bolos.  The evidence of what the hijackers used is destroyed, but you and paranoid fools like the writer of that article want to insinuate something that is just not there.  It sounds like you want there to be proof that they used guns.  That would only fuel the anti-gun cause.  Whose side are you on in the gun rights fight?

Prove it.

You guys are missing the obvious.

What about Miss Cleo?  

She’s in Florida.  Wasn’t that the same state that at least some of the hijackers took flight training in?

Perhaps she gave mind control training to them.  Obviously if they used mind control to seize the planes, no weapons would have been needed.  

This would explain how they got through airport security so easily.  It would also explain the absence of any physical evidence of such weapons at the crash sites.

The fact that the government has suddenly put her out of business clearly supports this possibility.  

Where is she now?  Guantanamo Bay, maybe?  I understand her Bahamian accent was a fake and that she was actually born in California.  Why did she need a disguise?  Could she have been a CIA agent gone wrong?  (Admittedly, I can think of other reasons to deny having been born in California!)

If mind control was used in the hijackings, then all of the recent efforts at airport security have been a total waste.  Simply outfitting aircrews with [b]tinfoil hats[/b] would prevent such tragedies.

How ironic that this solution has been in front of us all the time!  [:D]

Are we being friendly here? [:D]
If you don't like a topic, it is best to let it sink, or debate it respectfully. I am not gonna take sides here, but I know that personal attacks are mentioned in a section of the conduct code.

I can feel the love! [;)]

Which flight was it, where the PILOT nose-dived the plane while PRAYING to ALLAH?

Wasnt that Flight 93?...Doesnt anyone remember this stuff? I'll bet the pilot flew a little bit off-course just so his butt-buddy could get a clean shot at the plane.

Some conspiracies are just that! You cannot possibly think that ALL conspiracy "theories" are false, can you?

I disagree about the reason for the increase in security warnings.   The frequency of the warnings has increase because of the democrats and the media throw out accusations about prior knowledge of the attack in an effort to "make news" and win more votes in the next election.

With regard to the use of k-bars vs box cutters.  Prior to Sept. 11 I flew with a box cutter in the brief case on several occasions.  I don't think I could have gotten my k-bar on a flights.  So if you were going to highjack an aircraft don't you think you would use an item that you had a better chance of getting on an aircraft or would you try to use a huge ass k-bar? It makes sense to me that box cutters were used.

IS it proper to "debate respectfully" outright kookery?
If someone came up to you and started trying to argue that your brain was controlled by invisible unicorns in the subway tunnels, you would of course try to ignore them...but if they insisted on spouting the same thing into your face every time you passed by, you might get tired of it and tell them to go to hell.
But I doubt you would respectfully debate them.

Hey, calm down there, this is General Discussion. Who ever said that the discussions here have to make sense or be productive?

It is an interesting theroy that the terrorists might have had better weapons then box-cutters. One of the things that I would consider in this is the terrorists' need to get their weapons through security reliably. They had to get their weapons onto preselected flights at a preselected time and place. They can't count on the occasional sleepy gaurd, unlocked door, or whatever to complete their mission. So it would be to their advantage to use weapons that they could easily get through security.

Where is all the hostility coming from?

Yes, the aircraft might have been shot down.

There is alot of evidence to support the theory.  

There were fighters trailing flt 93

The wreckage was secured immediately.

explosions reported before impact.

The CVR tape was released to the next of kin. (I have never heard of this happening before)

Maybe the passengers revolted AND it was shot down.  Stranger things have happened.

In any case, it doesen't really matter except that the public should know the truth.

I for one am tired of the "you can't handle the truth" mentality from government.

OR...

Maybe the terrorists really DID have a bomb on board.

Ya know the flight attendant DID report over a cellphone that a hijacker in her plane had a "bomb strapped on."

And Todd Beamer, DID talk about the "terrorist with a bomb" on his cellphone call.

So maybe (just maybe) they really DID smuggle a bomb onto the plane!!

Maybe (just maybe) the terrorists knew what everyone who's ever been to an airport already knows - that the dim-witted, minimum-wage, functionally-illiterate, glorified toll-booth attendants working our airport security aren't exactly clones of John McClain from "Die Hard".




Nah, it was the Gov't!!

That's a better story.

Oswald shot the plane down from the bushes.

But seriously I think you might have something there with that stuff about a “security lapse”, I bet noooo one has considered that yet.  The writer should get a Pulitzer for discovering there was a security lapse on September 11th.

Call Oliver Stone Quick

Well, which is it?  Guns or K-bars?  Really now - you need to pick a story and stick with it.  Oh, and it might help if you had a shred of evidence to support your conclusions.  Posting a link to some delusional paranoid whacko's website doesn't count as evidence either.  All that does is give us insight to your web-surfing habits.

Again, please have some evidence, not just "let's say for the sake of argument" or "what if".  Otherwise, you're just lips flapping in the breeze.

Most accident scenes are secured immediately. If there was an explosion on the tape do you really think all the the relatives would agree to keep their mouths shut? What's is your source and the fighter trailing the aircraft and the reported explosion?

Maybe the relatives are part of the conspiracy too.

Unless, the FAA and FBI/CIA tampered with the black box in which case, they're part of the conspiracy.

Obviously, the pilot who shot down the plane is part of the conspiracy.

Oh, and so must the ground crews who must have noticed the missing ordnance on the fighters. They're part of the conspiracy too.

...and the passengers on the flight?  The ones who called their relatives on cell phones and told them that they were under the control of hijackers armed with knives...and then told their loved ones that they were going to try and take back the plane...yup, they're part of the conspiracy as well.

wow, this conspiracy is getting complicated.  This Bush administration must be good - they have a conspiracy that involves hundreds of people and there haven't been any leaks yet.  Compare that to the last administration that couldn't keep an Oval Office hummer quiet.  Yep, ya really gotta keep an eye on these guys - they're good!


Edited to conceal a spelling conspiracy.

She was part of the conspiracy too...George W personally recruited her with the help of the Mossad and brainwashed her into slashing her own throat.

Don't forget about the wingman, the ATC folks, and the local police and fire departments they must all be involved.

With the media trying their their best to make a story out of what was known before Sept. 11 don't you think they would be all over this if there was one bit of evidence?

I just love seeing people with small minds, people so set in their simple ways of thinking, get so damn offended when someone mentions and idea that contradicts what they think.

Prove the plane was shot down?  No one can prove that.

Prove that it [b]wasn't[/b]?  No one can do that either.

Same thing for what the highjackers were using as weapons.  No one below high gov't officials will probably ever know.  So why get so warm over an alternative theory as to what happened?

My question is this:  When [b]four[/b] planes are taken over and all change direction at the same time, how come nothing is done, ASAP?

Umm...yes, they could...if there were any proof. Which there is not.



Of course they can.  And they did.  That's why we have these things called crash investigators.



Because we have tapes of phone calls made from the planes that tell us what weapons they had.
What evidence does anyone else have to the contrary?

Maybe you have, but I havn't heard from or seen anything from these ivestigators.  All the ignorant public sees is Heir Ridge or some other stiff talking about what's going on in the "investigation".  Still havn't heard a peep about the black boxes either.  Maybe its a bad habit, but I question everything that gov't says.

Since nothing like this has happened before I imagine that to took time to figure out what was going on. It then takes time to contact the Air Force and it takes them time to either scrabble aircraft  or direct aircraft to the area.

What do you suggest that they could have done?


This small minded person gets so offended when the same people try to advance absurd conspiracy theories with  little or no thought and no confirmable sources of information.  Mistakes are made and things are covered up from time to time but everything is not a conspiracy.

Questioning everything is just as poorly-thought-out as questioning nothing. Instead think "what would the benefit of lying be in this circumstance, and what would the cost be of being found out?"
The cost of being found out in this case (which is damned likely considering the number of people involved) very much outweighs the benefit of lying (which is little to none).
Just use logic.