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[url=http://handguns.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=1547]Front cocking serrations on the 1911[/url]

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... I didn't log in there but if your going to seriously train to fight with pistols you need to get into the habit of racking a slide from the front with or without front sight serrations.
Now obviously you should have them on your personal carry.

... If in doubt, just go through the motions and you'll quickly see how much more ergonomically friendly a front slide really is.

It requires much less space to do it too.

MAKE CERTAIN YOUR MUZZLE IS MANAGED CORRECTLY AT ALL TIMES WHILE DOING SO.

Why?




Again, why?



I can't see much, if any, mechanical advantage to using the front serrations as opposed to the rear ones.  You're compressing the same recoil spring in either case, right?  What do you mean by ergonomically friendly?



If you're referring to a CQB situation, and the difference between getting your pistol into the fight or not relies on having front serrations, you're in a situation where a pistol probably won't help you anyway.



Now THIS I agree with in all cases!

My Smith & Wesson 99/40 has front serrations and I love 'em, Tell you the truth, I like the S&W designed slide better than the Walther slide on the P-99.

I cock both from the back and the front depending on where I am and what I'm doing.

The Serrations on my S&W99/40 are blended into the slide quite well (As are all good serrations) and have not caused any holster wear that I have ever been able to see.

I like my serrations.

Prefer no guide rod, and no serratons. Like the pinch method, as I don't want the heel of my hand in front of the muzzle.

How about turning you Handguns into a link? Would love it!

I'm guessing you mean that you prefer a standard-length guide rod over a full-length guide rod?

I don't really have a preference one way or the other about the guide rod.  I'm not convinced that a full-length adds much in the way of accuracy, nor am I convinced that it contributes to or hinders reliability significantly.  

I've had some people tell me that full-length guide rods prevent you from racking the slide one-handed....and then I show them that I can do it just as quick with my Kimber (with a full-length guide rod) as they can with their pistols with standard guide rods.

As I said in the handgun forum, I like them.  I like the looks of them and I also find them handy for unchambering the pistol without having to chase the round across the floor.
That said, I wouldn't buy a pistol JUST for that feature and neither would I NOT buy a pistol just because it didn't have them.

... OK look, NO part of your body ever graces the barrel if done correctly.

If the 1911 is in your right hand (R/H), front slide serrations (FSS) are meant to be grasped with two forefingers and thumb. With left thumb pointing towards right.
Now you "can" rack your aft slide in the same orientation however your fingers cover the ejection port. Never R/H rack aft serrations with your left thumb on the right serration. That's for amateurs.

Because 1911's don't "normally" come with FSS you just don't get into the habit of doing it naturally.

But I'm here to tell you once you've trained at [b]Front Sight[/b], [b]Thunder Ranch[/b] or [b]Gunsite[/b] or any formal competitive function you too will realize the advantage.

I think it is more aply called the recoil spring guide, when it is not a complete "rod". The rod buggers the timing, and by many (to include myself) should not be used in competition and self defense. That of course is my opinion, and rather old fashion, I might add. I build them and use them a lot. I have them both ways, but the full length ones are reserved for use in the back yard.

They remind me of the "hooked trigger guard" phase of the mid 80s.

As I stated in the HANDGUNS forum, it seems like SIG, HK, Glock, Walther, and other manufacturers of top quality pistols do not see the need for them either.

Fair enough.  Semantics aside (standard guide rod vs. recoil spring guide), like I said, I don't really have a preference between the two.  

I haven't seen any reliability issues that could be attributed to the guide rod alone.  Granted, I'm not a pistolsmith and I haven't seen and used hundreds or thousands of pistols.  I'm interested in hearing how a full-length guide rod could affect the timing of the pistol in a significant manner.  Could you provide some more in-depth info?

Thanks,

Jeff

P.S.  For those who may think I'm being a smartass, let me assure you that I'm just trying to learn something here.

OK, I understand that the front serrations can be used safely (although I still prefer to keep my hand as far from the muzzle as possible).

What are the advantages?  I'm not trying to bust your nuts here, I just want a straight answer.  No, I haven't been to any of the schools you mentioned, so maybe (probably) there's something (many things) I don't know.  I'm simply asking you to tell me what the advantages of using the front serrations over the rear serrations are.

Thanks

... I modify my position by also reaching under the muzzle end to rack. Two advantages are:

(1) Can visibly witness the round chambering and you can check the chamber at any time without anything in the way.

(2) Personally, I feel it's more ergonomic to rack this way. I learned it years ago will IPSC shooting. Electronic optics pretty much forced it plus you can keep your muzzle trained on target easier.

Nor have I shot thousands, but I have shot a few. The friction of the guide rod is sometimes just enough to make the gun hic up. Never seems as much a problem without. Again only my opinion. I like it that way, you don't have to. That is why they make chocolate and vanilla. But bless John M. Browning for the design in all of it's many variations.

I can see the round chambering while using the rear serrations.  Also, with the method I use (which I described on the handgun forum), I can check the chamber by sight as well as by feel.  Fairly useful in low-light situations.

Yes, pistol optics "forced" the use of front serrations (although at least one company came out with cocking "ears" that allowed the shooter to rack the slide from the rear on a pistol equipped with optics.  On a carry pistol without optics, I still don't see the advantage to using the front serrations.

Why does Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, et al,  recommend the use of the front serrations?  These schools concentrate on pistol combat (for lack of a better term), as far as I know.  You, on the other hand, are now talking about IPSC.  

I'm not looking for a confrontation with you, but you said, "Now obviously you should have them on your personal carry."  

What are the advantages of using the front serrations on a pistol, in the context of a combat pistol, not a race gun?

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, although I'm probably coming off that way.  I apologize in advance if I'm giving that impression.

That's cool.  Thanks for the response.

In my admittedly limited experience with 1911s, I've never seen a malfunction that was directly caused by a full length guide rod.  Most seem to be magazine problems, followed by recoil spring problems (wrong weight).  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I've never seen it.

Now, how do you feel about arched vs. flat mainspring housings?  [:D]

I agree, bless John Browning for designing a pistol that, nearly 100 years later, we can still argue about!!  [:D]

[url]http://www.kimberamerica.com/Custom_Shop_Pistols.htm[/url]


[img]http://www.kimberamerica.com/_images/2004_LTP_Extractorsmall.jpg[/img]
[}:D]

Nah!!!! Don't like them.

Hehehe, you won't get an argument out of me for going to an external extractor design for the 1911.

At least Kimber is listening to end users in this regard.  [:D]

tune the extractor and mag and there are not many problems. timing from the the full length rod mimic both of the above, as it slows down the slide.

Prefer flat as the arched is beter for men with not much meat in their hand. Again just my opinion for me. Changed them all out with steel S and A's.

I like my recoil rod and spring as opposed to the barrel bushing doing all the work. The spring is not round,but flat and round sort of helical.  With alum lower,combat hammer,tricked out trigger,over-sized beavertail,larger mag release,larger backswept bolt lock,larger frontsweep safety.

you would have to buy a kimber to get all this on an Israeli arms combat 5000.   I know it's not a kimber,but it's damn sure not a run of the mill stock colt.  And yes the front /// helps out ont the cocking action.  

 Oh well     bob    [8D]