I went to the gun store yesterday thinking about picking up a SAR-1.  I am pretty sure this guy orders everything from Century.  He has Century boxes all over the place and leaves Century tags on some of the rifles.  Anyway.  I know the latest Century flyer has them for $309.  He has $449 on it.  I ask if it comes with any mags (knowing that it had at least one high-cap from Century).  He says, "Let me check."  "yeah, it comes with one 5 round.  They don't like to ship them with the guns any more.  They are trying to keep them from looking evil."  I keep looking around and he adds, "I could throw in a high-capacity mag if you pay full price."  It's not that he is trying to make a living that makes me mad.  It's that he lies to me about it.  Give your customers a little credit.  Moron.

I left and bought a new knife elsewhere. [:)]

Thanks.  Good to rant about it.

Yes.  Some dont realize some read shotgun news and surf the web.  I looked at some Romanian AK's the other day and the tag said $400.  When I asked him about it he said they couldn't import anymore and there were only like, 1000 in the US.  Oh, yeah, these were the last 4 in shops.  Come on.  I really liked that shop too.

Yeah, it really pissed me off when I called a shop and they wanted $200 over MSRP (not the wholesale price, the MSRP!) for a handgun.

I lucked out, someone was selling one privately for a reasonable price.  I haven't bought any firearms from that store since.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.You might as well go to a FFL and have him/her order you one directly from Century and pay the shipping and a FFL fee($40 is what I usually pay)after all that works through call the shop that tries to screw you and give them a reminder of why you will never go there and your buddies will never go there again.
Good Luck!

Hey jvic,
I've got an SAR-1 I was thinking about selling or trading, let me know.

[img]http://home.attbi.com/~s0ulzer0/pixx/Romanian001.jpg[/img]

Just for the record, the $309.00 price IS the FFL p[rice and NOT MSRP. Do you really expect dealers to NOT mark things up?

Wanna know why there are fewer and fewer FFLs?

Do you work for free?

yes

I realize $309 is the dealer price.  I didn't have the problem with his price.  That is why I said:



I thought someone might say that.  It wasn't the price, although he seems quite high.  It was the he LIED about what was shipped with the gun.  Even if he had said, "No, it does not come with any mags." I could accept that.  It's that he actually said it was not shipped with the mags.  That is the issue.  I am all for giving the small guy my buisness and even paying more than I could get it for elsewhere.  I know I could go to my local FFL and have them order one in.  They charge 10% over cost.  But he has the building and a lot of money tied up in inventory.  I am willing to pay more to be able to pick the one I want out of the 5 or so he had.  But not if he lies to me.  I will never give my money to a salesman who lies.

And no one likes to feel like they are being gouged.  Fair mark-up is fair.  I understand that.  But there is a limit to what a good buisnessman should charge.  Do you disagree SteyrAUG?

jvic - I understand you disappointment.

Personally, I've generally had the best success with being upfront with dealers.  I inform them of exactly what I am looking for and what I feel it is worth.  If I'm on my game, I already know the wholesale price (called the manufacturer and sweet-talked somebody out of it), and certainly the prices available through SGN dealers.  I'll offer the dealer a price significantly lower than MSRP, but above his wholesale price.

The dealers that react favorably to my offers, I continue to do business with.  Those that don't I stay away from.

Good dealers also have an uncanny ability to determine who is "just fishing for a deal" and those who are serious about buying but still demand a fair price.

Yes, that is it.  I was set on buying one.   I went with the intention of buying one.  It seems like the dealers that get mad are the ones trying to gouge people.  Kinda like car salesmen.  They get highly offended if you catch them at it.  It's a buisness deal plain and simple.  I understand the guy has to eat, but the most successful buisnesses I have seen price things fairly and give good service.  I will go back to them every time.  I will not be lied to.

Yes, some do think people are stupid. When dealing with those types, I usually make it a point to let them know that I know they are full of sh*t. Then, I walk out the door or leave their table, never to return. I'm lucky I guess, though, because I deal with a bunch of honest guys, and they have never done me wrong. The owner even tried to give me back some money once after I had already paid up; I forget exactly what happened, but he discovered a price difference in my favor, or something. I told him not to worry about it, that as long as we were both happy, everything was just fine. As an example of the deals this guy gives me, he let me have a USGI M14 mag *already fully loaded* for $20. There are some good dealers out there.

Yeah I know it a little steep,but its the best I can find around.[:(]

Damn, you guys all have to pay that much for the transfer? The guy I deal with charges me $5 to cover the B/ground check, and that's it. He will even order some stuff for himself at the same time, just to have a reason not to charge me shipping.

You are very lucky! It's 25 bucks around here.

Hell, I'll get me an FFL and then mark everything up 200% then blame you tightwad jerkoff gun owners for my going out of business in a month or three.

Free enterprise is one thing, gouging fellow gun owners to make the rent/mortgage payment in one purchase is unjust.  

Hell, it's like preachin' to the choir.. Ya'll know where I'm comin' from.

1. Him lying about how it shipped is a credibility issue. I agree.

However, please remember FFLs don't sell guns in volume like Kmart.

A 10% markup is a going out of business sale in the making.

The cost of the FFL, Occupational licenses, code and zoning will eat up a 10% profit. All other retail business charge 40% making a $309.00 gun retail for $432.60. I pesonally charge less, but more than 10%.

Reason being is I intend to stay in business. If I don't make enough to sustain the business and pay my bills I am simply out of business. This is my livlihood and how I pay may way in life. I don't expect people who provide services to me (electricians, plumbers, etc.) to do so at cost plus 10%.

And think about this, FFLs who go out of business turn their 4473s over to the ATF by law. A FFL still in business can shred them after 10 years without ever providing that info to the ATF. I plan on shredding my 4473s on the day they come of age. I plan to stay in business so I can continue to aquire guns for my customers that sporting goods stores won't stock.

Sure WalMart is cheaper. And for that reason I don't even bother with regular ammo and hunting rifles. Simply can't compete when they sell at my buy price. But on 9-11 they suspended sales of firearms and ammo for your protection, I didn't.

Eventually the 10% FFLs will be mostly gone. You will only have commercial outlets like WalMart and the few dealers who managed to stay in business. Who do you think is gonna help you the most?

Did you know ATF can pull his license for that? During inspections they sure as hell check my books. They are just looking to get rid of FFLs who only got one to build private collections or hook up their buddies.

If you are not "engaged in the business for profit", they will can your ass that very day. This is a ATF requirement.

ATF can not "pull your license" for doing free transfers for your buddies. As long as you are "engaged in the business" you can do stuff at cost for your friends if you want. It happens in all businesses.

After all, it doesn't cost anything to do transfers in the first place. That would be like saying that it's illegal for my gunsmith to do something for me for free.....

Not true.



Not true.

Cites?

I must not have stated it clearly; my mistake. What he'll do is charge me cost plus 10%, plus $5 to do the paperwork.

Until someone shows us where in the Constitution /(Bill of rights) it says that we have to purchase guns through another 'licensed' individual, we will bitch at the prices. [:P]  

YOU GO BOY!  lol

Sure. The ATF as a qaulifier for maintaining your license states you must be "engaged in business for profit." IF they determine you are simply using your FFL to increase a private collection or just sell guns to buddies at cost they will deny your license. I know at least one FFL who lost his for doing just that.

During inspections they check the disposition of firearms to determine how they are being disposed of. They go through my books during every inspection. Maybe in rural areas you can get by with selling a Winchester 30-30 at cost to a buddy. However if it is ALL you are doing you are done. This seems especially true when you specialize in military style firearms, they seem to look for an excuse to close your doors.

And transfers are NOT free. I get charged for every background check by the FDLE. It is certainly NOT free.

Also MOST of you misunderstand the concept of a transfer.

When you buy a gun from a private ad or online auction and have a FFL receive it for you, THAT is a transfer. And 10% is a fair price for the FFL to log in your gun for you cand call you in, etc.

When you receive your own property from out of state, that is technically a transfer. In this case though I personally DON'T charge 10% because it was not a sale. I only charge for the cost of my background check to cover MY costs.

However a person flipping through shotgun news and calling a wholesale supplier and wanting to order guns "at cost" is NOT a transfer. That is basically a person tyrying to order "at cost" without going through the time and effort to obtain a FFL.

In addition, flipping through a Shotgun News and making a call is NOT "doing all the work" and does not entitle you to dealer prices. You need a FFL on file with wholesalers to order from them for a reason. if you want that price, get a FFL like I did.

Back in the 80s a FFL cost $40.00 and you could run your business from a kitchen table. Given those conditions you could charge 10% and make money. Under the Clinton Administration that all changed, FFLs now have major compliance hurdles and expenses.

I charge what I charge in order to stay in business. That is why I didn't name my business "SteyrAUGS Welfare Guns For Communists." I unserstand that many of you may know FFLs who will do sales for dealer cost plus a food stamp. I don't.

And as far as requiring a FFL to get a gun, that is not my fault. If you can get the 68 Gun Control Act overturned that will solve your problem. Me and other FFLs trying to stay in business are NOT the problem.

SteyrAUG,

When I have an FFL do a transfer for me, I show them my CCW permit.  They write the little number on the form and I am on my way.  They don't have to call it in.  $20 for 2 minutes of work.  Pretty good wages by anyone's scale.  Then again I've spent thousands with each of the two FFL's I do business with.  If they were to jack me around, I wouldn't come back and buy anything else from them.  

I ended up winning a bid on an AK for cheap.  My favorite FFL has a rule that they don't do transfers on guns they sell, but they are going to transfer this gun for me anyway.  That is called keeping a good customer happy.

Forget his 5 round mag and rediculous price, go order the same rifle with a 10 round *and* 40 round mag from AIMSurplus.com for $299 then have it shipped to a FFL. Spend that extra money and buy more mags (Romanian steel mags are $5 and Bulgarian waffle polymer mags are $9.95 at KVar) and 1000+ rounds of ammo.

I'm not disagreeing that you must be "in the business" or you will lose your license. If you had read my earlier post, I said that a FFL cannot get his license pulled for doing favors for a buddy.

If I'm an FFL and I make a living selling firearms, but I sell at cost to my best friend, how can you say that I'm not "engaged in business for profit"? Obviously I'm making enough money to live on. There is no BATF ruling, or relevant law that says that you [b]must[/b] make a profit on every sale as you infer.

The point is, the BATF cannot pull the FFL of a legitimate dealer who breaks even on transfers for his friends.

You don't live in Florida. I get charged by the state (FDLE) for each and every background check I call in. Even for the ones who are denied.

Also $20.00 for 2 minutes would be good wages if continuous. But guns don't fly out the door. I sell an average of 3 a week. Multiply that by your suggested markup of $20.00 and i am making $60.00 each week. No thanks.

Also, transfers to me most certainly [b]are[/b] free. All the work the dealer has to do is scribble some numbers on the back of the yellow sheet and a one line entry in the bound book. They don't even have to waste time on the phone as I don't require a background check.

I DID read it and you CAN lose your license. Sure if you sell 20 guns a week and you did it once it will be overlooked. But if your business is mostly hooking up your buddies you are done. However the ATF has at their discretion the power to jack a license over a single incident. Try and pull a license and suggest that you "may" sell guns to aquantences at cost and see what happens.



I'm not saying it, ATF is. And sure there is no ruling saying you must make X amount of dollars, they like their statutes vague. Here's another one I bet you didn't know. If you intend to only do gunshows, they will jack your license.



No, the point IS they can. The ATF can pretty much do anything they want to. They have a qualifier that thay may loosely interpret at "their" discretion.

However, what do I know, I'm only a FFL. You as a gun buyer are infinitely more knowledgable of my regs. and requiremnets than I could ever hope to be.

Is the NICS system not national?  Why would you get charged by the state?  I never suggested a markup of $20 for an item purchased from you.  The $20 was for a transfer.  You can mark up your items as much as you want.  People also have the option of buying elsewhere if they want to.

What gets me is when gun shops give you crap about buying stuff online or in catalogs.  Guess what?  They could advertise their stuff online also.  No one is stopping them from expanding their markets, except themselves.

AGAIN, not in Florida. I get charged for every single background check I call in. And we have to call in everyone, even CCWs and police officers. State law.

Please take the time to read MY explainations the first time.

NO, wish it was. Funny thing is I'm positive the FDLE calls the NICS line and assesses us a fee for making a free call. We are not allowed to bypass themn and use NICE either. All Florida FFLs MUST use the FDLE.




Here,s the scoop on that. Our suppliers, to our misfortune, advertise online. They also advertise the FFL price online. So hypothetically you find a AK47 online for $309.00 at CAIs website or AIM. You want one at that price. Well that is were "we" get them. AIM and CAI do not sell them to us at a lesser price. We as FFLs also pay $309.00. That is a dealer price. You must be a dealer (FFL) to get it and only FFLs can place orders. So how the hell are we supposed to sell it to you at $309.00? See the economic dilemma?

Even if "we" also advertised online, we could not sell the same gun for $309.00 and make money. And us advertising any higher than that online would be pointless.

The reality is we can't sell a customer a gun at cost and make money. If you want a gun from one of our suppliers, you are gonna have to pay our price that we sell it for. I don't sell guns to make "no money."

I don't think any of you would do your job for free and without compensation.

And I do understand. You want guns for no markup and as cheap as you can get them. You like guns but don't like to spend money.

BUT I sell guns and I like to pay my bills.

I also like to eat but restraunts don't give away food for free or even at cost. Can you believe some even try and make a profit?

SteyrAUG,

I am all for FFLs making a fair profit and being able to live comfortably.  I was even willing to pay what I considered a very high price.  That wasn't what this was about for me.  It is the honesty issue.  I seem to have met more than a few dealers who take this approach.  It's disappointing.  I guess it's just like anything else, there are good ones and bad ones.  

I was never trying to say that dealers shouldn't be able to pay the bills or have a nice car.  They should.

So I take it that you can't find the BATF reg that says a legitimate FFL can't sell guns at cost to a friend. Without a cite to the reg what you are saying is only hearsay. Besides, nobody here has been talking about an FFL that only buys guns for himself and his friend except you, so I'm not really sure where you are trying to go with that, as I never implied it.



So, did you gain all of this infinite BATF regulation wisdom when you applied for the FFL or when it showed up in the mail? Or was it when you were studying for the BATF Licensee final exam?

Welcome to the real world.  It sucks.  I work in the computer field, and our suppliers market online, along with the manufacturers doing direct selling and marketing also.  An example is cisco (they all do the same or similar thing).  They have channel reps and direct reps.  If a direct rep gets in on an account, the channel gets cut out completely.  Even if the account is an existing customer of a reseller.  These direct reps are also actively pursuing customers.  That's a little different than someone finding a price on a web site or catalog.  Cisco direct is out knocking on our customers  doors....sucks.  We also have customers who order directly from our wholesalers too.  Double whammy.

No problems with that, just wish I could afford the nice car part. My Dodge sucks.

I, like everyone else try to find the best price.  

STYERAUG is right, we are the ones that are killing the "gun business".

In AZ, we are down to a few "high volume" dealers that move a lot of product.

I was at ANOTHER going out of business sale last week.

He claimed that between the shipping requirements and charges, he is not even able to sell reloading supplies.

I hate to see FFLs go out of business, it hurts us all.

Maybe you can get a new car and put "SteyrAUGS Welfare Guns For Communists" on the side and write it off?

You are right.
The FFL holders know those of us without one are a bunch of idiots for not having one.  
$200 for 3 years. Then what $90 after that?
Lebrew

ATF defenitions:

(21)The term "engaged in business" means-

(A)...a person who devotes time, attention and labor to the business of firearms with the principal objective of liveihood and profit through the sale or distribution of firearms.

(22) The term "with the principal objective of liveihood and profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is one to obtain livelihood and pecuniary gain, [b]as opposed to all other intents[/b].

From the Federal Firearms Regulation Guide from the BATF.



I was only stating that the ATF can jack a license over a single incident of "hooking up a buddy" at their discretion. I cited the one FFL I know of who lost his license. The bottom line is they CAN do it. The question is "Will they?"



No I learned most of it from the 167 page Federal Firearms Regulation Guide that the ATF send to every FFL. These are the rules you must comply by to stay in business and out of jail.

I also learned some from ATF inspections and agents looking for violations that could be used as a means to pull my license.

And if it is all so cheap and easy, why don't you just pull a FFL and get guns "at cost"?

Just acknowledge it. As for me getting a range, found out recently my county will NOT code and zone any new ranges period. They are in fact constantly looking for an opportunity to violate the existing ones and close them down.

So would you compound the situation by selling "at cost?"

I am very aware of the "real world" situation. That is why I have taken the necessary steps to ensure my busniess will survive and support itself.

I don't have an FFL and I don't know SteyrAUG, but how many of you work in a "blue light special" kind of way?

You can shop elsewhere and get a lower price but if you want "good", you'll have to pay me for it.

Shouldn't an FFL, if that's his calling, try to make a good living for his family?  Is he obligated to be KMart?

The dishonesty part is excluded from the above.  Fuck 'em.

You are only an idiot if you believe that is all there is to it.

I WISH that were my only operating costs. I'd be well into black ink by this time.

BUT, YOU SHOULD DO IT. You're gonna be rich in no time. I promise.[;)]