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Posted: 5/10/2002 12:32:12 PM EDT
[#1]
We already have.....but to be serious, I have been thinking about this lately. Why do people as employees have less rights than prisoners?
When did business become the entity talked about in "We the people....". And seriously I do not understand why any organization has the authority to override my BOR rights.....but just wait...I smell a lawyer coming and he can tell you-----money----right Eric Hunny----the people with the most make the rules...... |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 12:34:08 PM EDT
[#2]
So, what's the problem?
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Posted: 5/10/2002 12:41:21 PM EDT
[#3]
why are the first ten amendments to the constitution called the bill of rights?
they don't give rights. they outline that the government can't lawfully take away certain rights. shouldn't we call them "the amendments for controlling the government". |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 12:50:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Should we toss the Bill of Rights? In recent times "we"baned guns because the way they look, here we stop discussion because "we" don't like the direction the conversation is going. Should any club or directors of the club have that kind of power? The Bill of Rights has nothing to do with discussions that are stopped here. The moderators at AR15.com aren't government entities (as far as we know [shock])and since the Bill of Rights only protects individuals from government interference, the First Amendment doesn't prevent anyone from censoring you here. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 1:05:34 PM EDT
[#5]
"The BOR has nothing to do with.." I am sorry but that doesn't figure...can you give me legitimate constitutional reasons for the suspension of the BOR on this board? Articles 9 and 10 specifically. I may not have the protection against congress as stated in amend 1
for free speech, because as far as I know Goatboy is not a member of congress...but where does it say that a corporate entity or other body can infringe on the God-given rights--- And please do not take this as an attack on this board. I follow Goatboys rules because it is polite to do so and I thank him for this club house. But saying that anyone can take responsibility for my rights and go beyond what is written is ludicrous. Specifically big business and their you can't do these things.... |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 1:06:42 PM EDT
[#6]
I would like to thank ARgon raf 308 and es...for helping to decide on my sig-line.....smoochies.
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Posted: 5/10/2002 1:15:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Well, hound, it's like this.
This is a privately-owned web site. You visiting here is sort of like you visiting my house. At my house, I set the "house rules" just like GB sets the rules here. Now if you break the rules, you get scolded, and maybe tossed out. Simple as that. The Bill of Rights restricts the [b]government's[/b] authority, no one else's. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 1:19:56 PM EDT
[#8]
In response to Hound's post, ditto RAF.
If I find out that Hound stole my car, and I go to his house and kick the shit out of him, I have not violated his 8th Amendment right against cruel and unusual punishment because I am not a governmental entity. However, if he's convicted of car theft and part of his sentence is that the cops get to kick the shit out of him, that violates the 8th Amendment because it's government action. The Bill of Rights only protects you from the government, not individuals. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 1:27:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Raf...I got that argument and I agree(I hope GB spanks me first)...but does that mean here I am rightless? !st amend is rather tangled but let's take the second...if this place were physical...is goatboy's club covered by shall not be infringed or no? And to your last line---what restricts GB from doing anything he wants to me? laws passed by gov't? see it is a circular argument.
Es same question...what stops me from making sure ya don't come to my house and KTSOOM? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 1:46:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Raf...I got that argument and I agree(I hope GB spanks me first)...but does that mean here I am rightless? Yes and No. Regular laws and such still apply. For example, if someone threatened to harm you (and they were serious), you could report it to the authorities. And the Board Code of Conduct is designed to protect the site and the members from some abuses. But other than that, no, you don't have a lot of rights here. If you were visiting my house, and I didn't like your hat, I could throw you out, and you'd not be able to say or do anything about it. !st amend is rather tangled but let's take the second...if this place were physical...is goatboy's club covered by shall not be infringed or no? Yes, but only as it applies to the [b]Gov't[/b] Say you were a guest at my house, and were packing a gun. I'd be within my rights to ask you to unload it within my house. You could do so, or leave. What applies to the gov't doesn't apply to me in my house. Same thing here on this site. And to your last line---what restricts GB from doing anything he wants to me? laws passed by gov't? see it is a circular argument. Statutory law still applies, like I said above. And GB has to use common sense, too. If he took a lot of stupid and thoughtless actions against people, folks would pack up and leave. Same for the Mods and Staff. They just can't do whatever they feel like, or else they get scolded or kicked out, too. Es same question...what stops me from making sure ya don't come to my house and KTSOOM? Statutory law prevents you from doing that, not the Constitution or BOR. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 1:47:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech----Ok to continue...this says I have freedom of speech,yes? and that Government can't
make laws against it yes? Now where does it say that every other Tom, dick and harry can make rules about what I say? And why would you describe this state of being as freedom of speech? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 1:55:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Really well written but--What applies to the
gov't doesn't apply to me in my house? Oh really...the I have no expectations of life,or liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. Shall not be infringed---not by you or shrub or little green men...or am I confused and not reading these four words correctly? I don't see any allowance for you or anyone to change this...you can ask and I will leave....but it is not your right to break my rights. woohoo this has been fun...just trying to try to get someone else to see the other side......going to Philly now... |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 1:56:52 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech----Ok to continue...this says I have freedom of speech,yes? and that Government can't make laws against it yes? Now where does it say that every other Tom, dick and harry can make rules about what I say? And why would you describe this state of being as freedom of speech? Tom, Dick, and Harry can and DO make rules about your speech. For example, your Boss at work could fire you for talking back to him and speaking in an insubordinate way. Your parents and spouse expect you to speak in certain ways, and not others. If you're in Church, you'll get in trouble if you interrupt the Preacher during services. See what I mean? Sometimes, "Freedom" is a complicated thing, and depends on the circumstances. If you yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, you'll be in trouble, UNLESS there really is a fire. Then, you're a savior. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:02:09 PM EDT
[#14]
If they are going to get rid of the BOR, I wish they would just hurry up and do it already.
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:11:15 PM EDT
[#15]
ooops raf won't let me go....I know raf...everyone thinks they can run my life...I am asking where did this notion come from?
If I tell you 2+2=4---we can agree yes...? But the idea that freedom=everyone can tell you what to do doesn't figure........ |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:11:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Raf, maybe it would be constructive for us (members) to know what is offensive in your house. I was under the impression that this was in fact our house. So far, nothing here (in this thread) seems to be impinging on the rulings of your house, therefore, I hope you will "allow" this to run a reasonable course.
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:14:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: But the idea that freedom=everyone can tell you what to do doesn't figure........ So when I'm at your house, you don't mind if steal cash out of your wallet, tear up your furniture, have sex with your wife, etc.? Freedom means I get to do whatever I want, right? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:18:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Raf, maybe it would be constructive for us (members) to know what is offensive in your house. I was under the impression that this was in fact our house. So far, nothing here (in this thread) seems to be impinging on the rulings of your house, therefore, I hope you will "allow" this to run a reasonable course. Well, for starters, this isn't MY house, it's GB's and the Avila's. As for what's offensive here, just read the Board Code of Conduct. It's all there. That's what we Mods are supposed to enforce when necessary. Personally, I dislike locking threads and such. But sometimes it's something that has to be done, like it or not. Here's a link to the Code:[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/announcement.html?id=25[/url] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:19:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: But the idea that freedom=everyone can tell you what to do doesn't figure........ So when I'm at your house, you don't mind if steal cash out of your wallet, tear up your furniture, have sex with your wife, etc.? Freedom means I get to do whatever I want, right? I find stealing, destroying property, and rape (or adultry) a streach from speaking your mind. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:25:29 PM EDT
[#20]
My point was that it is obvious that freedom has limits.
You bring the Bill of Rights into this when it obviously has no application. We as humans have rights. We can discuss that. But the Bill of Rights is irrelevant. It puts limitations on government. That is not the issue here, so why bring it into the discussion? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:27:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: ooops raf won't let me go....I know raf...everyone thinks they can run my life...I am asking where did this notion come from? If I tell you 2+2=4---we can agree yes...? But the idea that freedom=everyone can tell you what to do doesn't figure........ Sometimes, Freedom's a relative thing. Your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose begins. Even the President of the US isn't free to take a week off and tell nobody where he is. Maybe we could say that the more freedom you have, the fewer people telling you what to do. But I can't think of anybody who has unlimited freedom. And maybe that's a good thing. I'm not sure humans are designed to handle total personal freedom and still participate in society. YMMV. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:37:45 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: My point was that it is obvious that freedom has limits. You bring the Bill of Rights into this when it obviously has no application. We as humans have rights. We can discuss that. But the Bill of Rights is irrelevant. It puts limitations on government. That is not the issue here, so why bring it into the discussion? You're right teaparty, the bill of rights is nothing more than a statement of the rights of man, which transcends the constitution. We as a free people have these right as endowed to our species. I can in fact say what I wish, and take the consequence of rebutal. As Raf says the hand should stop at the nose, not necessarily before. Who makes the call on speech? Yes, fire in a safe building is a bad thing, but is bringing about discussion of some issues not allowed, while other offensive ones are, okay? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:47:15 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: My point was that it is obvious that freedom has limits. You bring the Bill of Rights into this when it obviously has no application. We as humans have rights. We can discuss that. But the Bill of Rights is irrelevant. It puts limitations on government. That is not the issue here, so why bring it into the discussion? You're right teaparty, the bill of rights is nothing more than a statement of the rights of man, which transcends the constitution. We as a free people have these right as endowed to our species. I can in fact say what I wish, and take the consequence of rebutal. As Raf says the hand should stop at the nose, not necessarily before. Who makes the call on speech? Yes, fire in a safe building is a bad thing, but is bringing about discussion of some issues not allowed, while other offensive ones are, okay? Well, at this site, GB and the Avilas are the ultimate authority on what issues and topics are permitted, and which are verboten. The Mods just attempt to enforce the rules as written. Remember, the rules are written down and pretty clear. Any Mod who started screwing people for no good reason wouldn't last long. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:57:18 PM EDT
[#24]
So how come I can't run naked into the house across the street with a gun and yell "screw you and prepare to eat lead ya lilly livered scoundrel!". It's a free country right? [:D]
Hound, I believe all of your guaranteed rights end at that point where they step on my guaranteed rights. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 6:18:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My point was that it is obvious that freedom has limits. You bring the Bill of Rights into this when it obviously has no application. We as humans have rights. We can discuss that. But the Bill of Rights is irrelevant. It puts limitations on government. That is not the issue here, so why bring it into the discussion? You're right teaparty, the bill of rights is nothing more than a statement of the rights of man, which transcends the constitution. We as a free people have these right as endowed to our species. I can in fact say what I wish, and take the consequence of rebutal. As Raf says the hand should stop at the nose, not necessarily before. Who makes the call on speech? Yes, fire in a safe building is a bad thing, but is bringing about discussion of some issues not allowed, while other offensive ones are, okay? Well, at this site, GB and the Avilas are the ultimate authority on what issues and topics are permitted, and which are verboten. The Mods just attempt to enforce the rules as written. Remember, the rules are written down and pretty clear. Any Mod who started screwing people for no good reason wouldn't last long. Well put and well taken, raf. That is the best answer yet, and one I can accept, after all I paid up knowing those. So now let's let this topic die for once and all and get back to having fun! |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 6:25:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Hell No!
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