The race? Sure it was rained out last night but, they ran it today.  Congrats to Tony Stewart.

Mike, as you know there is no easy answer.  But I think it can all be traced to the "victim" mentality and overt permissiveness in the guise of "liberty".  Out of bounds is out of bounds, and we've lost that.

Back in the '80's, lawyers figured out that if yo ucould take the blame off of the guilty, and place it everywhere else, you could get rich.
No one is at fault, except the other guy.

The f%^#&*@#ing liberals did it!!!!!!

we are living the the sunset of our democracy.
look at the history of England in 1900.  the parallels are tragic.


1950 when baby boomers never grew up.


we can't. it's part of the cycle.  

even a tree will grow so large it will become impervious to all elements but it will rot from within.

sorry, she is a grand lady and I will hate to see her die but it's how the world works.

"What have we wrought? A Republic, if you can keep it."

Benjamin Franklin

I guess we couldn't.

Ahhhh yes.  The good old days.  When right was right and wrong was wrong.  When you were afraid to do anything bad or illegal, not because of the cosequences with the police, but the consequences when dad got home!

Some of the gene pool seems to have common sense and responsibilty taken out somewhere along the line.  1 male loser + 1 female loser reproduce = 1 really big loser and society suffers because of it.

jump on the band wagon its the guns!

I was just thinking about this the other day because I turn 37 next month and I feel like an absolute dinosaur.  The entire mentality of the nation has changed to "What can I get away with?" vs. "what's the right thing to do".  People will throw away friendships and families on a whim or for a few bucks.  People will air thier dirty laundry on Jerry Springer without a hint of shame.

I don't know what to tell you Mike, I really don't, except that I feel the exact same way that you do.

Jeff

I believe a number of factors have caused the decline.  Dr. Spock (no, NOT the one with pointy ears!)was a focal point of disaster.  Those of us who were children of The Greatest Generation were the last to be subject to discipline as a whole.  Even some of us were not.  Partly because of the idiot Spock but a lot because the ones who suffered so much in WWII and the Great Depression wanted their kids to have everything and not be subject to those hardships.  Their folks MADE them behave and they wanted to be less strict.  Each generation since has gone easy on the kids, not making them behave or pay attention to their studies.  The university educated teachers have been particularly bad in all this.  An individual family may still try to instill the values of hard work, honesty and others, but the "peer power" among kids now overwhelms those efforts.

The politicians are worse than ever and now smell their goal of enslaving us.  "Nothing corrupts so absolutely as absolute power."

Serious problems require radical solutions and people are too bound to their comforts to rock the boat.  The Greatest Generation had their hearts in the right place but their actions had unintended consequences.

People don't change, the times do.

The above sums up the situation best of all.

The Hour is late and the shadows are long.  The Party is over, most people just don't know it yet.

What comes next won't be pretty.

[img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sadness.gif[/img]

I'll tell you what happened to us.  

Safety Devices!!!!

Yes, you heard me, safety devices.  Today you can't even ride a bicycle without a helmet.  Don't even think about buying Lawn Darts.  Slip and Slides, nahhh, might cause an injury.

Think about it.  When we were kids we had none of the safety concerns that we have today.  Hell, we all probably slept in cribs with death trap sides painted in lead paint.

Natural selection is being subverted.  We are letting the weak survive.  We will continue down this path to destruction until somebody realizes this one simple fact.


[b]The stupid ones are supposed to get killed off!!!![/b]

I have been saying this for years.

One-hundred years ago the stupid were killed off young, not today, they are coddled to senility.

There's only one way to get it back......

[left]IT is not the times has changed, it is the liberals shoving there views down our throats I get pissed every time I think about it. notice most of the problems come from liberal area's because it is not the criminal's fault it is our's these dick's change our lives here when some dick in california/NY/D.C. don't think were living the way they think we should. I have my own view's and the constitution I live by I teach my daughter's the right way yo be. not the way it feels good.[/left]

Pure and simple....

It was the 60's......The age of enlightenment, free thought, birth control, feminism and all that other crap.

[8P]  [8P]  [8P] Peace out [8P]  [8P]  [8P]

Sgtar15

I agree with ARTIE.  No reason to be sanctimonious about one's golden era, and the demise of discipline today.  Kids are no different.  
This may be one of those urban legends, but my sources indicate that the person to whom this quote:

"Our youths love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority. They show disrespect for their elders and love to talk rather than do something. Children are now tyrants, not servants of their household. They no longer rise when their elders enter a room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food, and tyrannize their teachers"

is attributed is a great thinker with immense insight.  A person upon which many of my feelings on the subject rest.
Who do you think said that?  (Again, may or may not be an authentic quote, but try to guess if you want.)

Just turned 35, funny how long it takes for one's eyes to open. Welcome to your Mid Life crisis in time you will realize your Granfather couldn't stop progress, your Father couldn't stop progress and you probably can't either(Progress is an interesting word, isn't it?), so buy a new gun , maybe a Harley, how about a new Vette? If this sounds expensive it really isn't when you consider the cost of some of the alternatives.
Enjoy the ride, because you can't stop it or change it.[:D]
Have a nice evening,  Rabon...

IMHO:  I don't know who said that, but it was
definitely a person of unusual perception and
wisdom.  It sure nails the head on the hit.

But you asked for guesses, so my pure guess is
George Carlin.

DanM

It started with the Warren courts.
It took root with the hippies in the 60's.
It grew in the 70's with the romanticization(sp) of drugs, and the beginning of action without consequence.
It festered in the 80's with an overly litigious society where nobody was held legally responsible for criminal offenses, and people bringing spurious lawsuits were not disbarred.
It has taken more than a few years, but it was solidified throughout the 80's and  90's by hippie dipshit liberal college professors and their PC rhetoric brainwashing  entire generations hooked on MTV and deifying the scum that the network decides children should see as cool.
It is now 2002 and we are living with the consequences of entire generations raised without conscience, moral direction, or heroes deserving of accolade.
You get what you pay for.

ARH

"we are living the the sunset of our democracy.
look at the history of England in 1900. the parallels are tragic"


It's not a damn democracy(aka mob rule)
And with England in the 1900's the deal was left wing nuts(commies,cry babies,ect) they can't seem to get a hold in the same way here as they did there.
This gives us a chance,that is if we don't buy the commie crap and do for our selves.

Problem is:

There never was a golden era.  Have things "really" become worse for the common man?  No, they have improved.  Individual choice is still everyone's option.  As always, if you buck the status quo, you suffer alone.  When did personal responsibility take a leave of absence? Quite blaming society on personal behavior  The reality is 90% of people have the same values that made this country great.  That is why we did not fall apart on 9/11 or 12/7.

We are NOT a Democracy and have never been one.

Not true at all.  We are NOT better off than we were mid century.  The country on the whole is less civil, it takes two incomes to get by which means that you usually need 2 cars which means you need to earn more money.  Who ever heard of a daycare center in our parent's era?  We aren't better off, we just have more stuff.  Stuff that doesn't enrich our lives at all but rather distracts us from the fact that our families are falling apart around us and that it's increasingly hard for a working man to make a live-able wage.  A wage that he can raise a family on.  As far as falling apart on 9/11 goes I think that the fact that you could still get a slurpy at 7-11, hell ALL business stayed open and operating, shows that as a society we are only concerned with the pursuit of a dollar.  Fall apart?  Fall apart how?  We all just went to work the next day like we always do.

It's funny you say that because I got almost 25 yrs on you. Then it was Nam, Drugs, Sex and Rock and Roll. The world or America was going to be destroyed.

Guess what we survived and advanced. Maybe into worse times  with AIDS, Terrorist Attacks, Increase of everything that cost money. Worse of all our children having to grow up so fast,  and not really enjoy the smell of flowers. To look up and feel the sun on their face.

Yes it is bad but believe in the survival of the human and it will get better. Never give up on God or what ever your belief is. Just has long that it doesn’t destroy another person. And you could say I did something good today, we will be on our way to recovery. Think Positive and things will be OK. I have been trying to make up for what I destroyed in people’s lives and in my own. You know what it is possible to do it Trust Me.

Hey, QCMGR. Miss your RGUNS translations.[:)]
I don't think it is 90% anymore. I guess that's the whole point. Think it once was. Now more like 70%. Bad news for the future is that most of the 70% is afraid to speak up anymore. We have to be "tolerant". To be politically incorrect can cost you alot these days-job, career, marriage, lawsuits, etc. Further, the worst part of the 30% is having most of the kids. I fear for my country. I really do. Maybe I was just born in the wrong century. To soon or too early. Who knows which. I'm sure liberals consider me a dinosaur...

The welfare check replaced the father of the family and corporate daycare inc. replaced mom. With no need for a father to bring home a paycheck, single parent households became common.  Divorce became acceptable and teenage pregnancy wasn't the big bad wolf that it used to be. MTV is the baby sitter of today and kids know more about Brittny Spears than they do the three Rs.

When it's my turn to run this world; shits gonna change!

Thanks HMC,

My dad went into the service in 1947 at the age of 15.  He never gave us any slack; he new what accountability meant first hand.  He used to like to read from a book that talked about how the broadcasting networks and the movies were revealing "too much" to kids.  How modern conveniences were making are kids "soft".  How music was making our children brainless.  The book had the basic feel of social malaise we all feel.  The funny part?  It was written in 1936.  These kids fought WWII.

You bet. A lot has changed, especially with regards to the family and I believe, as you apparently do, that this is at the root of our problems.

Thanks,

I miss doing them.  I have suffered a forced relocation to SW TN.  I have been off-line since January (Except for the occasional trip home).  I am in the process of moving back to MI.  When you work in automotive quality, you never want to be far from the motor city.

How interesting that most who venture to put a finger on a general period of the beginning of the decline place it during their lifetime.  What a self-centered, narrow time frame concept of history!  No anecdotes about efforts to improve the situation, just finger pointing.  No real economic or sociologic support here.  Life may be no better or worse for the world.  A look at the globe's last century provides evidence of tragedy and atrocity of epic proportions.  One who has greater interest in a broader view need only to look back a couple o' hundred years to realize that nearly 1/3 of Europe was wiped out during great epidemics.  Too many examples to cite.  I don't think that "the media" or MTV or marketing or a consumer culture is to blame, but many of you do. I don't believe that there is any real evidence to support this claim. Why the defeatist attitude along the lines of "Oh, well, it's the fault of 'The Man', and not everything is going to hell." Reminds me of a chicken little bumpersticker: "Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?"  Get a grip, and recall the age poll that appeared on this site within the last few weeks.  Suggests that the average age of a respondant is <40 years old:  almost too young to be considered a baby boomer.  Somehow, an arrogance in this generation makes it believe that the world has revolved around it, and that the decline has happened during its tenure on the Earth.  I don't believe that there is any real evidence to support this claim.  Get a grip and see that the world is doing OK.
Hasn't anyone ever encountered that quote that I cited earlier in the thread?  Do you have any concept of when it was written?  The answer may give you a better, broader, perspective.

.....and your point?

Actually I think we hit our peak as a civilization early in this century.  It has been declining ever since.  I was born in 1965 so no, I don't think it's happened in my life time, but it does seem to be accelerating.  True epidemics were big killers 2 hundred years ago, but they still are.  The 20th century is in the books as the bloodiest century of all recorded human history.

The point I was attempting to make is that we appear to be on a slippery slope and the trend is down.

Maybe the "good ol' days" are yet to come.

After reading your post IMHO, I realize that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Now that you have revealed to us our mistake pray tell me how your going to fix it? I have opinions on several other toipcs that I will run by you for your approval in the future. Man, it's good to know that there is somebody out there with the answers! I thought I was going to have to fix all this by myself!

Maybe the "good ol' days" are yet to come. . .  with a broader perspective, maybe it can be seen that we are on an upslope in a greater cycle.  I am frustrated with those who claim that we are on the way down, because I think that they lack an understanding of the places and times from where we have come.  Defeatist, weak, depressed, sad. . .

I would say the world is getting better. If you read the history books, the early 20th century was truly messed up. Much of the vices that we see today existed long before the 60s, it's jsut that society was more repressed back then and less of it were addressed in public. If you were to read The Great Gatsby or Death of a Salesman you'd see that the world before the 60s werent' perfect. The 20s were just as materialistic, and there has always been stumbles in American life.

IMHO,
I appreciate what you are saying but I don't think there has been a period in history when there has been as much societal change as has occurred in the last 50 years. This can be very destablizing to a nation or people. The family is on the verge of total disintegration. We are not there yet but I would challenge you to find another period in history when 55%of marriages end in divorce and most children are being raised in single parent families. No doubt there have been other times and places when nations have become corrupted but it has often led to their demise if they were unable to pull themselves out of their decline.
I would also add that we are talking about the USA here and not the rest of the world. Many other nations have their own problems but history will tell you that other nations and empires will take our place as we weaken and they become stronger. Generally, a ntion on its rise has a stronger worth ethic, and I would argue, a stronger sense of family and morality. The reverse is also true with regards to a nation in its decline.

FWIW, the Great Plague occurred more than a couple of centuries ago. Nor do I see even the most remote parallel between that and the self inflicted wounds of our neo-selfindulgence.

Personally, I do think that the world, in general, is in trouble as well. This is due to limited resources, overpopulation and ongoing climactic changes(please don't get me started on global warming). Once again, though, we are talking about the US. At least that is what I'm concerned with here. I'm not flaming you but I think you need to pull your head out of the sand.

Finally, I am not saying that the sky is falling. In all of mankinds previous struggles is was recognition of the problem and the strength and tenacity to overcome or repair the problems that has saved us. Those who have failed to do so have perished. That is the lesson of history.

No disrespect, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment.



You mean criminals like Jesse James and Billy the Kid?  They were glorified, had books written and movies made about them.  While they lived, the locals aided them in hiding from the law.



And parents still spank their kids, and it's still legal.  You just can't go overboard, and many people did just that on a regular basis in the "good old days."  



AFAIK, it's still our national motto.



Yes, and a lot of people are still ashamed to go on it.  I would venture to guess that most people are ashamed when they have to go on it.  There is a sizable minority that is not, but I think they simply get more press than they used to.



Other leaders now considered terrorists were then considered statesmen.  Saddam Hussein for one.



Well, actually IIRC the death rate in schools is flat.  Again, this is more a case of a couple high-profile cases than any real change.



It did not, really.  Some things have gotten worse of course, but not worse than they've EVER been.  These things run in cycles.
For instance, I recall very clearly being almost dead certain sure there would be a nuclear war.  I don't think there will be any more.



About 500,000 years ago.



We do the best we can.  It isn't as bad as most want to make it out.

Just to give you a quote to put things into perspective...
"The budget should be balanced.  Public debt should be reduced.  The arrogance of officialdom should be tempered, and assistanceship to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt."---Cicero, 63 B.C.

Rome didn't fall for over four centuries more.

HMC, you're taking this fairly personally. No one it criticizing you or your entire generation. However there are problems to be overcome and challenges to meet. It seems to many of us, myself included, that a diminishing number are pulling there share of the load. To some degree that is at it has always been but there appears to be an overall trend downward. Certainly one could argue that it has been ongoing throughout the entire last century. Now, we have made great strides in many way and I agree that there has been some brief periods of improvement. I do, however, feel that the gradual trend with regards to our "society" has been downward.

I agree that this is a source of destabilization, and a threat to morale and dignity, and I think that in terms of divorce rates, you may be right.  Not sure that marriage statistics exist that would either support or refute this claim.  I do think that family patterns and social hierarchies, you know, family structures and organizations, change with time.  Not always have societies depended upon our traditional pairing.  Yes, I know, D. Morris has lots to say about the survival advantage of monogomy, and the tendency for people to "breed" in this way, but our American concept of "family" is not a universal one, and although it may be partially responsible for a lack of "family values" it is not necessarily, in my (humble, of course) opinion, a sign of decline.  Your point that we're discussing the U.S. is a good reminder.  I guess that I was getting a little sidetracked with my world history tangent.  I haven't, though, grown to believe that "family" is one of the fundamental structures upon which this nation was built.  
"A couple o' hundred years ago" was probably a bit of a distortion of the roughly 700 years that have elapsed.  Technically, 700 years may fit within the boundaries of a "couple o' hundred", but that probably wasn't the best way to make the point.  
As far as being in trouble, I think that it might be better to return our discussion generally to America, and specifically to people.  I don't think that "the world, in general, is in trouble as well. . . "  Our concerns about global warning (no I won't get that started did you hear, though, about the last week's poll of the "typical" American's understanding of "science"?), about disease, about overpopulation and famine and all those terrors, are fears for humans.  The "world" will survive an ice age, the "world" will adapt to a change in the composition of the atmosphere, in an increased exposure to UV, to the loss of all humans.  A concern for "the world" is, I think, often a concern for oneself, and for one's family.  The "world" can take whatever we can throw at it, and it'll bury us.  Doesn't mean that I'm willing to accelerate the loss of human life, of course, just want to bring our discussion back to one of the American people.
I do enjoy your posts.  They seem to be thoughtful.    

Also, I don't think that limitations of resources and "overpopulation" are new trends.  These are the catalysts for change, and the sparks for the adaptions that make humans so hearty.  I have faith that Americans are capable of digging deeper, of working harder, of regaining focus.  I have faith in our ability to "Step Up", to rise to the occasion, to meet the challenges.  A flight across the nation is an illustration of the incredible amount of unpopulated territory within our borders.  Yes, less than appealing, but still we're not overflowing into the oceans.  We'll adapt, I think, because we must, and then life will be easier, and then another challenge will arise, and then we'll adapt. . . "