These days, I let most of ETH's flatulence disperse with the prevailing wind, but THIS ONE I've GOT to respond to.

Mostly because its disproven by the Great Mouthpiece of Conservatism, the great Swami, the incomparable Maha Rushi, Rush Limbaugh.

To wit -



It all happened during Rush's present "All Israel, All The Time" 3 hour long broadcast.

Limbaugh, who's head is so far up Sharones rectum he prolly can see daylight coming from Sharone's ever-open mouth, was absolutely fawning over Shimone Perez, the way a 7th grade schoolgirl fawns over a Back Street Boys poster.

You see, Perez, who Rush made it seem was of more excellent moral charachter than our current President, or possibly even Ronaldus Maximus, was giving Rush the "guided propaganda tour" of Israeli settlements in teh West bank.

Then it happened.

A moment of unusual candor, perhaps even unintentional candor.

A brief glimpse of the truth, said once, and never repeated. Yet of IMMEASURABLE significance.

From the mouth of the Rush-ster himself. Muffled NOT by Sharones rectal cavity.

Here's what Rush said -

ALL the Israelis living in the West Bank (who live in VERY respectable homes, mind you, MUCH more respectable than their Palestinian counterparts) are......R U ready for this?????

I mean REALLY ready????

[b]They are ALL either active military, or active reservists. And they are ALL armed, in their homes, with fully automatic weapons[/b]

Do you see the significance???

In effect, Israel has a military base right in the West Bank. Isn't a military base a "legitimate target?"

For the willfully blind, let me explain what SHOULD be obvious.

(con't)


Given that the palestinains are NOT the sharpest tools in the shed (What can you say about someone who beleives you get 77 virgins for blowing yourself up with a bomb??? No Einsteins in that bunch)  its EASY to see how they would mistake ALL Israelis for military personnel. When teh ONLY Israelis you EVER see are ACTIVE MILITARY, and are occuppying you beleive to be your land, wouldn't you think that ALL Israeli homes, businesses (which are staffed with armed Israeli military) , all targets are legitimate???

Eric the(SelfProclaimedVoiceofReason)Hun claims that "all of the Israelis that have been killed by such terrorists were 'innocent.'  "

Well, seems Rush Limbaugh, the Great Israeli defender, in a moment candor, proved Eric WRONG.

These are Israeli MILITARY personnel in the West Bank. And given the simple-mindedness of the Palestinians, its EASY to see how they would beleive ALL Israelis are military personnel, since that is the ONLY kind of Israelis they EVER see.

Now I'll grant that bombing teenagers at a disco is a bit over the top, but WHO REALLY put those teens at risk?? Isn't it the Israeli parents who moved into a war zone, AS ACTIVE MILITARY, ARMED like military personnel, cashing paychecks from teh Israeli gov't, who bear PART of teh responsibility for putting their own children in danger???

Isn't it????

Its ironic really.

The isrealis are ALWAYS accusing the palestinians of hiding among civilians. I won't dispute that. But the Israelis ALSO hide among the civilians - THEIR OWN CHILDREN.

So, you've got an AR or Garand or some sort of rifle suitable for military use, and you are a member of the militia.  It says so right in the Constitution.

Are you a legitimate target for terrorists?

Whenever an Israeli soldier or policeman is killed or injured, he's been identified as such.  You really don't pay any attention to things that conflict with your own views, do you.  

Soldiers have to live somewhere.  That doesn't make their houses & families either a military base or a legitimate target of soldiers.  Terorists, sure.  Everybody's a target.  That's one diffeence between them & us.

YES, I am.

And let me add - "Bring it on Usama." I'd be pleased to kick a little ass, or die for my country.



They do NOT have to live in the West Bank. They CHOOSE to, by virtue of their choice to be active military. And I'll bet if the truth be told, they are GIVEN those very respectable homes as a perk, in addition to their combat pay, and military pay. I beleive Rush said as much, but can't say that unequivocally.

EVERONE KNOWS the West Bank is a war zone. Yet they choose to bring their families onto what can ONLY be described as a de facto military base, in homes ARMED by the Israeli military, putting them in harms way. Like I say, the Israelis are HIDING BEHIND their OWN children, then crying foul when one of them gets killed.

And you NEVER hear THAT in the news. NEVER.

There are 300,000 illegal Israeli settlers in the Palestinian Occupied territories.

Today Sharon announced the illegal settlers would not be removed as the part of any peace negotiations.

Today the head of the Palestinians Security Forces announced he would not be able to work with the IDF because of the recent sea of blood.

So today both Arafat and Sharon have announced there will not be peace.  So long as the Muslim countries continue to fund Arafat and the United States continues to fund Israel there will be no peace.

My position has long been that neither Israelis nor Palestinians can afford peace.

Garandman .. I seem to agree with you about 90% of the time. I agree with you on this one.

But, you know... I don't have any disgust for the Israelis or Palestines, or the talking heads that take their wierd points of view.

I'm disgusted that WE take any sides with these SOBs and support any of them with money and weapons. Coin operated peace is not free. These folks need to pay for their own freedom to truly be free. Through their pain conflict will destroy them or make them understand fighting costs too much. Us paying the sides off doesn't do this.

So based on this reasoning if I had a beef with the Swiss I could attack indiscrimately against them.  Their soldiers are everywhere.  To add Garandman, not all the suicide bombings are taking place on the west bank.  

They can fight to the last Israeli or Palestinian and I don't particularly care so long as the fight is not sponsored by U.S. taxpayer money.

There will be peace when the United States tells the Israelis not one more U.S. dollar will we pay until there is peace and when the Muslim nations tell Arafat the same thing.

[b]garandman[/b], [s]you sniveling pile of camel dung[/s], my brother.

If you have just a few moments to reflect ... what the hell are you talking about?

You keep talking about the West Bank, the West Bank this, the West Bank that.

Just what 'terrorist attacks' are you talking about that have occurred on the [u]West[/u] [u]Bank[/u]?

All of the 'terrorist attacks' that are usually talked about in the news occurred in the State of Israel, not in the West Bank!

Tell me the incidents of West Bank terrorism to which you are referring!

So why do you continue to prattle on about the West Bank?

Eric The(HoldingYourHeadUnderTheCovers!)Hun[>]:)]

I agree. We, the USA , are the problem.

Rush does say one thing I agree with. Peace will only come after TOTAL victory. One side had to beat the other side into submission. EVERY peace resolution of a military dispute was settled by an UNCONDITIONAL surrender.

My point is get ALL the US dollars out of the equation FROM BOTH SIDES and let them settle this they way men settle things - by all out war.

Afghanistan is a PERFECT example of what WILL happen between the US and israel. We, the USA, created Usama bin Laden. But eventually, he got fed up with US intervention, and turned on us like the radib dog that he is.

Any ANY nation will eventually turn on us - once we outlive our usefulness to them, and tire of our interference. As will Israel. All of human history is littered with bitten hands that use to feed other nations.

Post from Atencio -

'Not all'? Give me a listing of [b]any[/b] suicide bombings that have occurred on the West Bank!

Eric The(Y'allNeedAMap?)Hun[>]:)]

I will agree with you on 1 point. That is that the Israeli Civilians should not being moving into the West Bank.

The children of Israeli soldiers are not legitimate targets. They are innocent victims. I believe that occasionaly Paliscum do kill soldiers. But, this is rare in ratio to the number of civilians (Men, Women, and Children) they kill everyday. Killing a soldier on duty is a valid military action. Killing his kids, wife, etc...is an act of Terrorism.

Also, an off duty reservist is not a target. All the men in the WTC were militia according to the Militia Act. But, would you consider them legitimate targets ? Reservists/Militia are only legitimate targets when they are on active duty as in fighting. I believe that technically every Israeli man and woman is a reservist under their laws. Hell, I have heard tell that some of our own politicians are considered IDF Reservists by the Israeli Government because they are Israelis between xx and xx years of age.

As for them being armed. I own several guns, yet I do not consider myself to be a legitimate target. Should war break out and we are invaded, I will fight back. Then, and only then will I become a legitimate target.

BTW, have you seen the truth about the non-existent "devastation" in Jenin:

[url]http://www.etherzone.com/2002/jenin.shtml[/url]

Hello!

Wouldn't it make sense that all of the settlers are active duty or reservists?  All Israelis must perform active duty and then serve in the reserves?  Right?

So grab a bag of popcorn and a beer, turn on CNN and watch the show.

If they're going to blow each other to hell anyway, I'm going to stop worrying and play "ID the assault rifle" on CNN.

Y'all BOTH need to pay "Atencio-n"  [}:D]

TWICE, in the thread opener, I already addressed this item.

the Israelis that the palestinians live amongst in the West Bank are ALL active military. The Israelis themselves think so little of their children to put them in a war zone.

If you were a Palestinian, and the ONLY Israeli you ever saw was active military, wouldn't you think that ALL Israelis are military??

I realize you'll answer "No" to this to get you off the hook, buy in the simple-minded mindset of a Palestinian, this is EXACTLY how I suspect the mental (and I do mean "mental" ) process goes.

Compound that with the FACT that the ONLY effective  means of conducting war is via homicide bombing (which I am NOT justifying) and you get EXACTLY what you have in Israel / Palestine today.

Where the attacks take place is IRRELEVENT  [strike]you sniveling pile of rabbi dung [/strike] (to quote you ) [}:D]

The REALITY that ALL West Bank israelis are armed active military CREATES a misperception upon which the palestinians understandably act.

garand(OrDidIMean"Rabbit?"NoRabbiWasCorrect)man

[}:D]

That, [b]garandman[/b], is such a pile of rabbi or camel dung that even the 'simple-minded' Palestinians are probably running away from you.

The more you post the more I disbelieve your sig line. I doubt you like Jewish rye bread!

So where are these suicide bombings and terror acts that are being carried out 'in the West Bank'?

Eric The(Hmmmm?)Hun[>]:)]

Garandman is a total joke.  he should take his ignorant self to Gaza and see how long he lasts there.  There are over 30 arab states in the Middle East.  Israel deserves to be there, as a single non arab state, including the so called "occupied territory".  The Palestinians have lost their right to life by keeping Arafat in power.  All Palestinians are a viable target.  The "children" this idiot attempts to defend are brainwashed from childhood to kill.  I would have no problem at all sighting in on a 13 year old Palestinian when he points his AK at me.  Yes it is a brutal, ugly situation.  But you have to keep in mind these sub-human Palestinians have bred their offspring to be homicide bombers.  There are no innocent Palestinians.  The Palestinians have had more than enough chances to join the civilized world.  They instead chose to be and support terrorism.  Therefore they have NO RIGHT TO LIFE.  Plain and simple.  This is good versus evil.  There can be no middle ground.
Death to Arafat, death to the Palestinians.

Garandmans religious drivel and support of the Palestinians is borderline domestic terrorism.  He should be banned from this board once and for all.  GB has said more than once to lay off the religious bable. He refuses to.  It is time for Garndman to go fight with his Palestinian brothers and leave us TRUE Americans alone.

Now Eric and Garandman, stop this bickering or I'm going to turn this car around and we're going home!

I think this board has long been familiar with both your views regarding Israel:

Eric the Hun: otherwise known as "The Israeli Marketing Corporation"

Garandman: otherwise known as "The head chef at the 'All-Day Israeli Barbeque Pavillion"


Can't you guys EVER play nice?

In my Western sensibilities (which Eric claims are NON-EXISTANT  [}:D] ) I too have a problem with "killing kids."

But "killing kids" in this region of the world has been par for the course for some 5,000 years. And you know what?? The Israelis started it. Yup. Old Testament.

If anything, Arabs have L-O-N-G memories.



I find it logically incongruous to try to claim to be "militia" but then to try to claim to ne NOT a legitimate military target while you are IN A WAR ZONE.

Put this in a 1776 context, Lexington, Mass. Try telling the Red Coats you are militia, armed, and commissioned by a lawful act of your goverment as part of the armed militia, but that you are NOT a legitimate military target.

Its laughable.

Isrealis are, by your own admission,  armed by their gov't and  living is a war zone. THAT is the very defintion of a legitimate target.



I have deliberately avoided the whole jenin discussion intentionally.

Two reasons:

1. If some Israeli atrocities DID happen there, they have LONG SINCE been cleaned up, and hidden by the Israelis. Let's give them some credit. Its not like they are gonna have documentary journalists along for the play by play.

2. If NO atrocities happened their, the paletinains will STILL use it as propaganda.

[b]THE FIRST CASUALTY IN ANY WAR IS THE TRUTH. THE VICTORS WRITE THE HISTORY BOOKS.[/b] Jenin is CLEARLY an israeli victory. Read the hitory books with an appropriate skepticism.

garandman, as usual you ignore questions asked of you.  Name the West Bank terrorist attacks.  You can't, cause you are totally full of BS.  Your drivel has gotten old.  Give up.  You just hate Israel, all this religious BS and supposed 'facts' are just a smokescreen.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Hilarious post by ar50troll!!!!!!!!

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!LOL!!!!!

You know what the TRULY funny part is????

[b]I GAVE HIM HIS NAME!!!!!![/b]


Yup!!! About a year ago, when I was a mod, it seemed his life calling was to heckle and harass me. At the time, his username was "ar50guy."

I told him his name SHOULD be "ar50troll"

[b]AND GUESS WHAT???HE CHANGED IT TO "AR50TROLL!!!!!"[/b]

Apparently, he TRULY fears any opinion OTHER than his own, AND FOR GOOD REASON. He is powerless to oppose it. Heck, me, the spawn of Satan, merely told him to change his name, and he did!!!!!

[b] IMAGINE THE POWER OF SUGGESTION MY SALIENT POINTS HAVE OVER THE POOR SAP!!![/B]

What's funny is West Bank belonged to Jordan not long ago.  Everyone who lives in the West Bank is poor or works in Israel.

Israel comprises about 1% of the land in the Middle East and the Arabs on the remaining 99% want to destroy it.

Palestinians never had an independent country.  At best they were a province under a ruling authority (Rome, British, and now Israel).

If Palestinians were half as smart as our Native Americans they would build casinos and get rich instead of blowing them selves up.

My 2 cents.

Shok

I've addressed this question THREE times already, in this thread alone. You'll NOT receive a fourth.

I'm not rsponsible for either your ability to read, or comprehend.

I have NEVER said attacks DID occur in the West Bank. I merely said based on the observable facts of the West Bank, its easy to see why Palestinains might consider ALL israelis, REGARDLESS OF LOCATION, legitimate targets.

(Stupid me, I just gave you a FOURTH explanation)

OF FRIGGEN' COURSE the palestinains are NOT gonna bomb Palestine - its THEIR homeland (at least they seem to think so)

OF COURSE the attacks would happen in Israel proper - NOT IN PALESTINE - based on perceptions gained from the West Bank where the Palestinians live that ALL Isralies are military.

(And theres a fifth explanation)

If you STILL don't get it, then I can't explain it to you. Neither do I wish to.

Aside from Eric, you Israel supporters lack the ability to debate without resorting to personal attack. To quote you...."totally full of BS.  Your drivel.... .You just hate Israel.... all this religious BS ....just a smokescreen."

You are NOT doing yerself proud here. DO you REALLY fear an opposing viewpoint THAT much????

Think of it - you align with someone who just called me a "domestic terrorist."(namely ar50trollchild)  LOL. Where's EricThe(Convenient)Mod to address a personal attack when you need him????

[rolleyes]

Actually, there is nothing 'funny' about any of this.

I state that, at least on the face of it, all of the Israelis that have been killed by terrorists have been 'innocent.'

[b]garandman's[/b] rebuttal - some may have been active military or reservists.

Apparently, [b]garandman[/b] thinks that being active military or a reservist means that you are not 'innocent.'

Well, now, that's going to be a problem with any country that has universal military and reserve service.

See how clever [s]these Palestinians are[/s] [b]garandman[/b] is - there can be no such thing as an innocent Israeli in [s]their[/s] his view.

Yet, all the Palestinians want is what all of us want. Freedom [s]to kill Jews[/s]!

Now where's that list of West Bank suicide bombings and terrorist attacks?

Eric The(EditedForYourProtection)Hun[>]:)]

Because every independant ARAB nations kicks them out!

Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, Saudi Arabia all expelled (or executed) tens of thousands of "Palestinians" in the last half of the 20th century.

Right now more than 50% of the population of Jordan is "Palestinian". [u]THERE'S[/u] your Palestinian State.


BTW... The "Palestinians" could have had their own soveriegn nation by now if Yassar A Rat had accepted THE BEST JEWISH OFFER HE'S EVER GOING TO GET back the fall of 2000 - but he didn't want peace or a Palestinian State. He wanted more dead Jewish babies and mall shoppers.

Post from garandman -

Probably wondering why [b]subsailor[/b] never comes to my defense when I never fail to come to his!

But, after seeing how you led off this thread, I don't believe that I can rightfully judge just what a personal attack might be.

You'll have to get another Moderator to address this personal attack!

Eric The(Ahoy![b]Subsailor[/b])Hun[>]:)]

Quoted:


thats kind of reaching isnt it?  What about the suicide bombers that came from places besides the areas in question?

Garandman,

I feel for ya, guy...Big Bad Eric's picking on you pretty hard.  

Other than that...why don't you consider this?  Why did Arafat turn down Barak's proposal?  Wouldn't that have at least started to solve the problem on the West Bank?  Or was that murdering bastard playing for time/world opinion/conflict again?

Failing that, don't you think it would be nice if Israel's neighbors (you know, the ones who attacked and then got their collective asses kicked by Israel) asked for some of "their" land back, just to give to the Palestinian people?  That's not going to happen either, is it?  Those countries talk a big game, but they don't want the problem within THEIR borders either.

Wait, I here another post coming up about our four billion tax dollars...anyone do the math on what that costs the individual taxpayer?  Oh, no - corporate sponsorship???

First of all, aren't all Israelis either military or reserve military?  Second, what does that have to do with blowing up Israeli teens in a club, etc etc etc.

I should have said terrorist attacks instead of suicide ones in the west bank.  I can find only one mention of possible suicide attack.
As far as terrorism attacks in the west bank:
From BBC-News-MiddleEast

Earlier on Friday, two Israelis were killed after their car came under attack near the Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba on the outskirts of Hebron in the West Bank.
 One of them - Rina Didursky, a teacher and mother of six - died soon afterwards.

The drive-by shooting took place on Friday evening in an area where Palestinians have carried out similar attacks in the past. The Israeli motorist was overtaken by a vehicle carrying gunmen on the Atarot bypass road. Israeli media said he was sprayed with automatic weapons and died on the spot. Initial reports had described him as a settler. Earlier on Friday a suspected suicide bomber was shot dead at the West Bank settlement of Efrat. He was thought to have been on the point of detonating explosives in a supermarket when he was killed by a shopper.

The son of a right-wing Jewish extremist and his wife have been killed in an attack on their car in the West Bank. Binyamin Zeev Kahane, the son of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, died when Palestinian gunmen fired on his car near Ramallah.

Israeli F-16 warplanes have gone into action over Gaza and the West Bank, hours after at least 10 people were killed in a Palestinian attack on an bus at a Jewish settlement. Two bombs were dropped near the compound of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, and the radar tower at Gaza's international airport was hit. It is not yet clear whether there were casualties or what damage was done; Mr Arafat himself is at present in his Ramallah residence. Arafat was not in Gaza during the Israeli raid Planes also struck a helicopter pad belonging to Mr Arafat in the West Bank city of Nablus. The Palestinian Authority said it had ordered the immediate closure of Hamas and Islamic Jihad institutions including education, health and political offices in response to the attack on the bus at the Emmanuel settlement in the West Bank.

In Gaza:
For the residents of the Gush Katif settlement bloc that dominates the southern coast of the Gaza Strip, the Palestinian attacks on settlers in the West Bank and Gaza on Wednesday are further proof that trying to make peace with the Palestinians is pointless.
Gush Katif is the name given to a massive, consolidated area of illegal settlements that is home to 7,500 Jewish settlers.
It is a regular target of attack.

In Garandmans defense:
But a Palestinian minister, Hassan Asfour, said that Palestinians regarded settlements and their occupants as instruments of Israeli occupation because many of them were armed.

Problem with your examples, [b]Atencio[/b], is that garandman would consider none of those victims you mentioned as 'innocent.'

He said so, so it must be true.

Eric The(Right?)Hun[>]:)]

Look guys, no matter what we think or post here, nothing is going to change in the Middle East. These people will be fighting long after we're all room temperature. But you have to call your shots- do you support democracies or terrorism? The world would be more likely to support a Palistinian  democracy than a bunch of Palistinian terrorists.The choice is yours... choose wisely.

I agree with Garandman 100%.

If we are picking sides Imbroglio, then i go with the HUN 100%.

Time to be decisive:  I agree with G.Man, E. T.Hun and Imbroglio 100%.  (And that's without reading any of the posts !)

I think if we take everything and lay in all on a big table NOBODY is squeaky clean. Not PLO not Israel not US.
I guess is just taking sides of the lesser evil.
right now being Israel.
The best policy is to leave your nose out of it.
Which is kind of hard to do. Think UN, NATO, US interest abroad... blah blah blah...

Come to think of it if we "say it like it means" the "War on Terrorist" will be called "payback time... baby"

We won't leave the door open for Israel to roll their tanks into Palestinian Territory.

I am here your Worship.

Kill both Sharon and Arafat and let's get on with PEACE.  (Defense enough ?)

DITTO! Let them kill each other in the open plains of the desert. Let them all kill each other. Let them burn with their sacred cow sacrements. Just don't bring the goddamn battle to my soil. At that point they will all be a bunch of dead mo-fo's regardless whether they bow to Allah or Yaweh.

I do understand garandman's point about the Palestinians being as smart as a soggy Cornflake and thinking that all Israeli settlers are military. But I also remember some eager beaver militants in the 60s who envied the richly developed land the Jews had worked so hard to develop while they themselves were still living as nomads in the desert. I remember an aggressive military action in which Arabs attempted to take Israeli land by force and were soundly defeated. I remember Israel taking back their land and then some for good measure. Now the Palestinians want it back. Well if their memories are so good, then they should remember why they got their asses kicked to begin with.