The IDF says 'dozens', the Palestinians claim more than 500.

What do you think the final, UN-investigated, death count will be?

I say less than 500! Almost all Palestinian gunmen.

But then I'm always accused of being a pessimist!

Here's the poll!

Eric The(Galloping)Hun[>]:)]

My choice isn't in your poll:

Not Enough !!!!

Jay
[img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]

AZCOP... you beat me to it... Eric, you need a 'not enough' option... [;)]

Damnit Y'all beat me to it! One more vote for "NOT ENOUGH"

Now, boyz, you are just being brutal!

I can't imagine that Israel is offering those slugs holed up at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem the option of 'eternal exile.'

You can just imagine how long their exile would last!

But to Israel's credit (and possible undoing) they are actually arresting the leaders of Hamas and the other terrorist groups.

At least, however, those punks are off the street for the time being!

Eric The(I'dSayTheyDied'ResistingArrest')Hun[>]:)]

Damn I just have to get in on these things EARLIER!!

There is only a couple of ways this will end. Give the terrorists what they want. A new nation inside a sovereign nation...(then wait for the new mexico to demand US land)
Or destroy the PLO once and for all...drive the Palestinian infrastructure out of the land..attenuate them..take their numbers down so low that they are no longer a threat
The only other choice would be to let the Euro Union or UN occupy Israel and monitor the peace...of course this will not work to well as the left leaning third way favors the terrorists..and will work to destroy Israel from within.imo
The same leftist journalistic elite that lies to take our guns...hates Israel favors the terrorists..and wants them terrror to increase...the leftist press also hates the US with venom..

We will never know.  The Israelis are masters at cover up and lies. Remember the cover up on the Libety?  It took 30 years for the truth to come out. Of course some people sill don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit into their pro-Israel agenda.

No need for you pro-Israel prople to flame back on this.  I'm turning of my computer to go out to the shooting range for a while.  I want to zero my new match M1A.

Subject: Very Disturbing CNN REPORTER STORY
Friends,

I am attending the Israel Venture Association annual conference and was
introduced to Andrea Koppel from CNN as we were waiting for Prime
Minister Sharon and Secretary of State Powell to finish their discussion
Sunday evening at our hotel.

While we were chatting, an  American-born Israeli joined us to tell
Andrea about his perception of media distortion in that the press that
stresses moral equivalence between Israeli civilian deaths caused by
Palestinian terror and Palestinian civilian deaths caused by Israeli
military actions. He argued that Israel has tried to engage in a peace
process since Camp David and has been double crossed over and over by
the Palestinian Authority.   Further, he argued the deaths caused by
Palestinians are intentional, whereas the deaths caused by Israel are
mostly the tragic, unintentional results caused by Israel trying to
defend itself.

Andrea replied, "So when Israeli soldiers slaughter civilians in Jenin,
that is not equivalent?" Israeli, "What are your sources, were you in
Jenin, how do you know there was a slaughter?" Andrea, "I just spoke
with my colleagues who were there and they told me of the slaughter."
Israeli, "Did they see the shooting, the bodies?" Andrea, "Palestinians
told us about the slaughter." Israeli, "And you believe them without
evidence; they lie and distort facts." Andrea, "Oh, so they are all just
lying?" Israeli became emotional in describing that his children are
afraid, his friends have been murdered, and if this goes on, "We could
lose our lives or we could lose our country."

Andrea, "Yes, you will lose your country."

At this point, I interrupted the two of them and asked, "Did I hear you
correctly that you believe the current crisis will lead to the
destruction of the State of Israel?"

Andrea, "Yes I believe we are now seeing the beginning of the end of
Israel."

Needless to say, I was stunned to hear a senior CNN correspondent
express this extreme "worldview".   It was very disturbing for obvious
reasons, and I was particularly upset by her extraordinary geo-political
conclusion that the State of Israel is bound for destruction.   I asked
her how she came this conclusion - what was her background scholarship
in Middle East history or military geo-strategy?

Andrea, "Well you know, I took a course on the Middle East when I was at
Middlebury College and our professor assigned us 5 books on the history
of the conflict.  So I first read a book written by an Israeli and I
thought all the land belongs to the Israelis.  Then I read another book
by a Palestinian and thought all the land belongs to the Palestinians.
There are many points of view, and it is so complex."

Her background scholarship and intellectual depth on the subject duly
noted, I turned to consider what to do next.

1) Complain to CNN management?
2) Expose this to other press (say Fox or 60 Minutes, letters to the
editor?)
3) Try to educate her towards a more realistic understanding of Israel's
geo-political position?
4) Tell the Israeli Foreign Ministry and let them deal with it?
5) Do nothing? (I hope not)

I don't know what do to about this, but I thought you may have the right
suggestion.  Feel free to forward this to others.

David J. Blumberg [email protected]

UN Death Count: Exagerrated.

Real Dath Count: less than 500, mostly armed men.

I vote #6, tell the Mossad.

AZCOP,
Your camaro ICON looks familiar,  are you registered on the    http://thirdgen.com   board?

You know it's strange... these "refugee camps" seem to be fairly substantial and permanent. I don't see any tents on the news, just stone buildings... like the other non-refugee camp towns.

Not enough.

[img]http://www.minresco.com/jpg/ablast.jpg[/img]

Geez, only 15% here believe the IDF! [:)]

Actually, 85% believe the "victims" were armed. 15% believe they were innocent. 10% of those actually believe that every last person killed in Jenin was an innocent.

80% believe that < 500 were killed and most were armed, once you add in the 15% that believe < 100 were killed. I voted < 500, because while I trust the IDF to be truthfull, I do not believe they have fully accounted for all the dead. The current numbers are slightly below 100, but could surpass 100, but not by much. So, I go with the more liberal 500 maximum.

How dare you talk about guns in this forum! [:)]

Nope,,,

I just like the icon.

Jay
[img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]

According to ETH: "The IDF says 'dozens'." That would fall under the < 100 category (the < 500 category ostensibly being 101-500). So given multiple choices, only 15% buy what the IDF is selling.

"The IDF says 'dozens', the Palestinians claim more than 500."

With almost any two opposing and very different viewpoints, I'd suggest the true number lies somewhere in between.

I vote <500 mostly gunmen.  Even with with UN investigation we may never know the truth.  So maybe this is a "hope" more than guess.

I'm wondering if the families of those Palastinians who fought and died are being compensated with more "Martre money".  I don't think they were expecting to pay out so very much.  

For those innocents who died at Jenin... You have my prayers.  May your god except you for the person you were.  For those who would have strapped on explosives and marched into a mall.... burn in hell.  I'm glad you're dead.

Chalk up one more "Not enough".

Bullshit!

They asked the US command before they shot & were told no US ships were within 100 miles of where the Liberty was.  After they realized it was a US ship, they called the US comand back & informed them they may have shot up a US ship [b]the same day[/b].  The Israeli government  apologized the very next day and made monetary reparations within a month.  

There have been ten seperate US investigations into this incident: Navy, DOD and Congressional.  Every one came to the same conclusions:  The Liberty was where it shouldn't have been, Israel thought it was the Eqyptian ship that had been shelling them the day before and Israel informed the US the same day of the shooting.  There has never been a cover up, not even an attempted cover up.  

30 years?  Wrong by about 29 years, 364 days.

NormG

With all due respect BULLSHIT back to you.

The crew of the Liberty disagrees with you big time and has only recently been able to get their story out.

I also disagree with you big time.  I was on duty in at a National Security Agency Field Station in Europe the day  the Liberty was attacked.  I saw all the Flash messages from the ship to the command headquarters and to the President.  I KNOW (let me repeat that - KNOW)that the ship was sunk intentionaly.

Just think about one thing as you are denying the cover up.  What would be the remedy if the ship was sunk intentionaly?  We would have to cut off aid to Israel and then bomb them back to the stone age. From a political standpoint the US was not willing to do it.  The only logical course of action was to say "Sorry about that" to the crewman, accept some bullshit explaination about mistaken identity and hope that it all would blow over.

Get real.

And another!

Ten (1) votes for 'Not enough' - so far.

Sorry, but I tried to edit the poll to add that choice, but I couldn't get it to edit.

Strange that the Hun didn't have that choice available in the first place, eh?

Eric The(Peaceful)Hun[>]:)]

Flash66, how could you being thousands of miles away know exactly what the Israelis were thinking. You couldn't. It was probably an accident since nobody in Israel would be stupid enough to intentionally attack a US Ship. In the heat of battle mistakes will be made.

Look at the Canadians a US Pilot blew to bits the other day, the Brits we killed in previous wars, etc...These were qall accidents. Even, the stupid accident that took the life of the Canadians the other day. I don't know what was going through the minds of the Israeli pilots. But, even if they fucked up, there was no malice/intent to attack a US Ship.

I say that the number of victims does NOT matter!!! Many innocent victims were killed on both sides and this needs to stop.  Even if I get flamed for this, I don't give a damn, I have to say it.  The Israelis are NO angels ! ! !They are always in deep shit but It's never their fault..Yeah right!


peacefully.....

Kid223

When people piss with us, we are not very angelic ourselves.

Jay
[img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]

Kinda like how we just blew up the Canadians on purpose huh?

Edit to add: If we were in a FULL-FLEDGED war with Afganistan, and our country bordered it, and we were fighting for our very existence, and our fighter planes were given the info that no "friendlies" were in the area, there would have been NO Canadians left.  It was a tragedy that could have been much worse.

And remember, the one who kills himself the most each month gets "Martyr Points"!

Hmmmm, frequent martre miles.  I wonder if they can trade those in for extra virgins?

One more for "not enough". As for the Liberty,  I don't really care.  I was in third grade.  Try something a little more recent, and that has not been investigated so much with negative results. As for the survivors,  if they disagree, maybe they shoudn't have taken the reparation money.