Just wanted a few opinions...

I've become very good friends with a local gunstore owner over the last few years...

I spend quite a bit of time there helping out, and staying late into the night, sometimes 'till 3-4AM working on the store displays, guns, and whatever needs fixin...

There have been several gunshops in the area that have been broken into, and I have no doubt our store will be hit sooner or later, maybe even next...

The store is hunkered down like a fortress, and I think the only way someone could get in would be to drive through the wall or front door with a truck...

Whenever I'm in the store during and after hours, I've always got an M6 equipped Glock (34) on my side...

Last few nights we've been wearing bullet proof vests, and kept Q3131A loaded AR's & 00Buck loaded shotguns at arms reach...

We're not in there looking for a gunfight, but we also don't want to get caught off guard either...

Any suggestions or advice ???


...Forgot to mention, the store is near a "medium" sized city, and is often visited by what looks to be gang members and serious "riff-raff"

Any encounter would likely be either a broad daylight hold-up, or a late night "smash-n-grab" scenario...

So far, the other shops that have been hit, have been hit late at night and after hours...

You don't need suggestions or advise.  If you're wondering what firearms to use to protect yourself in the above scenario.... you've made some very good choices.

A VERY loud alarm and locked up firearms (non-defense firearms) will work wonders as well.  Ripping someone off is a function of how easily you can get away with it.  People turn to crime because they're lazy and it's usually easier than getting a job.  Make it easier to go somewhere else.

Unfortunately, while we're in the shop late at night, we can't turn the alarm on...
The store alarm is connected to the phone system, and includes motion detectors that would be set off by us moving around inside the store...

There is also no "panic" button, so we likely wouldn't see LEO's there 'till after the party is over...

You guys are on the ball.  

The "panic" button would be a good idea, otherwise you seem to have your bases covered.  I'm going to assume these people don't hit shops where they see that employees are still working.  Tell us if this is not true.  You never know.  

I'm sure if you'd ask, you'd get plenty of volunteers from here to "camp out" in your shop.  [:D]  

There just happenned to be a total of six of us "hanging out" there tonight 'till about 3:30AM...[:D]

BTW...

The threat is very real...
There have been some "warnings" from VERY credible sources (can't specify), including customers from in town...
Like: "word on the street is...(yadda,yadda,yadda)..."

Also noticed a LEO's passing the shop MUCH more than normal lately...

Something is going to happen, just don't know what or when...

I'll keep you guys posted...

Make sure yer AR's have lights on em!

Sounds like a plan to me.  You should also let your local LEO's know that you guys are in there, just to help prevent a mistaken ID shoot, if they show up while the action is still ongoing.

Also, do you have pre-planned cover?  If you're going to get in a fight in predictible terrain, set the cover where you want it.  I'm thinking in a gun store, a few of the large, heavy-duty gunsafes would work wonders.

A few years ago, there was a burglary in Denver where the bad guys did drive a vehicle through the front door of a gunshop, sometime in the middle of the night.  I don't know any details, but I understand they made off with a fair amount of stuff.

dp

Nice thing is, the store owner lets me pick any gun I want in the store or bring my own...

He's got a few machineguns in the safe, but I don't think that would look too good if the badguys had 30+ holes in them [:D]

Whatever guns that would be involved would likely be confiscated for investigation purposes...
The machineguns are safer in the safe...

A confiscated 11-87 or Glock, is no big deal...

Is there no feature to bypass the interior alarms/sensors, and activate the perimeter only? I know that this is common on home systems, and many business systems as well. Might want to recommend that to your friend the owner. Also, panic buttons (plural) are an excellent idea. It is possible to remote locate them around the store, so that they too are not outside of arms reach.

Sounds like your choices on defensive weaponry are excellent, and I wouldn't change a thing personally.

Stay safe, and be careful. Here is hoping they don't show up. Your safety will be in my prayers.

Most of our "hanging-out" is done at the back of the store, and at opposite ends of the store to prevent possible crossfire...

There are plenty of thick, gun filled display cases, workbenches, and steel desks/filing cabinets to provide cover...  

Nobody is within 20ft of any possible entry point in the store... This way nobody gets run-over, or is an easy target if there is a "smash-n-grab" style robbery...

I feel sorry for any fool dumb enough to make an attempt while we're in there "hanging-out"...


What exactly are the "rules of engagement" in a situation like this ???

Shoot ALL the badguys?
Shoot only armed badguys?
Don't shoot anybody?

Uh... not sure.  I'd guess it has something to do with... "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by six".  Exactly where that line is, I'm not sure.

You have two options the way I see it.
1) Politely ask them to wait right there while you call your attorney to verify the "correct" course of action.
2) Roll the dice and go with the situation. Worst case scenario, you are carried out of the store in a bag. Close second, you get to see what a "Jury of your peers" really is. Best case, you answer a few questions, go home to bed, and deal with the "clean-up" the next day.

Sorry, Dragracer, I can't really supply your ROE's for you.  My suggestion would be to contact a lawyer in your area familiar with self-defense legal issues.  I don't know what the laws where you are would be, and even if I did, I would be very hesitent to give you advice.  Besides, it wouldn't likely be considered good legal advice anyways.  You might try a local LEO, although they will probably not be real thrilled about giving you advice either.  If you build trust with an officer in the area, they might be willing to help.  Sounds like you have the situation tactically covered.  Now, you need to cover yourself in court, in case something does happen.  

Be safe!
dp

As an afterthought, try to get some (more?) training.  It never hurts to be able to show that you are trained and qualified with a gun.

How about installing some of those concrete columns going about 2 - 3 feet high.  They are spaced far enough apart to allow someone to walk through but will stop a vehicle.  They are all around the federal buildings down here in DC.  

That should stop the vehicle threat.  Looks like you got everything else covered.

Sounds like you guys got it covered. Have your friend pay to install a panic button or two. Also sounds like the place is well protected from smash and grab, so like you said either a vehicle crash or possibly you guys might get hit on the way out! Wear the vests home each night and on the way in. As you leave the store and "lock up" for the night keep a few of you drawn and ready to fire if rushed. If your "word on the street" sources are somewhat reliable, speak to police dept and request driveby at the time you leave. If other shops have been hit I don't see why they wouldn't cooperate and have a cruiser drive by for a week or two. I would think the last thing they want is more guns on the street, but then again who knows...

Yup! I saw those at your building. [:)]

At the gun store in Fairfax, the guy have his Dodge Ram truck pack parallel to the front of his store to prevent any drive through....And yes, they are armed inside. One time I asked to see a preban Benelli that was hanging there, turned out it was one of their defensive weapon.

I guess the only question I would have is what are you doing for the vehicle crash scenario?

The concrete pillars would be a good idea long term.  

But you might think about some thing more suited for people in a vehicle.  Pistols are chancy at best through auto glass, and I'm not sure the .223 is a lot better.  There should be at least one weapon selected with that situation in mind.

I'd be thinking .308 or something like that.  M1A? Garand? BAR?

Since you say threats have been made and the "word" is on the street it sounds to me that by continuing to work late at night and into the early morning that someone is just daring the bad guys to hit the store.  You have a "ton" of loaded weapons within reach, are wearing vests...it sounds more like an ambush than store personnel working on necessary projects that can't be done at more reasonable hours.

Would't it be more prudent to schedule the "stuff that needs to be done" early in the evening and leave by 9 or 10pm than to stay until 3 or 4 am?  Or, come in before the store opens in the morning?  

You've already said that the other stores have been hit late at night.  Why then would you continue to work there until the wee hours of the morning unless you were hoping for a confrontation?

RE: who to shoot. I would assume [:D] anyone breaking into a gunstore would not do it un-armed. Take 'em all out.

Who to shoot? all of them, due to the fact that they wount break in unarmed... what nutjob would? actully ... what nutjob would break into a gunstore with employees in it anyhow? sounds like courting suicide. also even if one is unarmed he could arm himself from the stores guns or one of his buddies who got hit. gun store robberies are unique in that the crook can arm himself from your stuff, while you still have your gun.

I used to work in a shop, I packed a Para Ordenance P12 on my person. Kept a Stoeger Coach Gun Loaded With Double Ought on the shelf. If i were you I'd think twice about AR's, I think Shotguns a better choice to defend a store.

 The ROE follows the general principle that you cannot use deadly force unless threatened with same.  Deadly force is actually fairly broad definition, and could even be interpreted as using an automobile to crash thru the front of the store.  If the SHTF, it will be the DA's office who decides whether to charge you or not. The other consideration is that the dead perp's family will sue your @$$ off for the loss of the poor dead dirtbag.  Even worse would be the perp surviving and suing. (remember the case of Bernie Goetz?)  IMHO, just make damn sure they are DEAD.
 The motorized smash-and-grab is a real concern.  If the building's walls are concrete block, it won't take much to smash thru.  Ditto the storefront.  Others have mentioned 'dragon's teeth' and they would be the only real defense against a heavy truck smashing into the building. If indeed the threat level is so high, maybe a roving patrol in the parking lot with FRS radios would be advisable.  the dirtballs wont be expecting a counterattack from the flanks or rear.
 Just make SURE the store has insurance to cover you guys if you have to cap somebody.

I think Briar hit a pretty pertinent nail right on the proverbial head.  It's not going to look really good in court that your friend and a few of his buddies were just "hanging out" till the wee hours of the morning, heavily armed, anticipating an assault.  I don't know how the laws read where you're at, but here it's unlawful to use deadly force in defense of property.  Unless the building is a dwelling, there's a chance that the perps could argue that they did not know the building was occupied.  (And hitting the store in the wee hours of the morning certainly seems to corroborate this intent.)  I would say do what you can in the means of passive defense (alarm systems, increased police presence, concrete vehicle barriers, etc.) and try not to lose sleep over it.  Your friend has insurance, doesn't he?  It might be easier to file a claim for the loss of stolen merchandise than to take your chances in court . . .  Also, I just thought of something a friend of mine installed in his gun store.  He had a pressurized O.C. (pepper spray) system, almost similar to a fire sprinkler system wired to the alarm system.  If someone activated the alarm, pepper spray and ultraviolet marking dye would be sprayed all over practically every square inch of the store and even out onto the sidewalk, if I recall correctly.  And, like someone else mentioned earlier, although it takes a little while if you have a lot of inventory, locking up as many weapons as possible before you leave each night is never a bad idea . . .

Get a dog, or maybe some hungry lions.

A moat?

I've heard that a shark riding on an elephant's back is also very dangerous to criminals, and offers superior protection.  Crocodiles?
[thinking]

Art,
Since you're (former?) LE, I assume you know the legals involved in the situation, or could find out easily enough.  I haven't heard anyone describing lookouts, but I also assume there's one or more of the guys "hanging out" who also happens to be looking out the window(s).

How about video feed from the surrounding area - front and rear?

Snipers on the rooftops?  [:D]

cell phone is a must.

Is this the gun store we went to after that show?

The concrete barriers are an excellent idea.  Until you can get something like that rigged up, see if you can arrange to have a few cars parked in front of the store overnight and off hours. They can't drive through the front if theres a few cars or a truck parked between them and the front door.  If its that same gun store, and if I remember correctly, theres not a lot of area to park other than in the lot right in fron of the store.  Even if they just intend to walk in the front door, hold-up style, if you have some cars parked in front, you'll force them to park further off or across that street.  That will obviously hinder any getaway, and may cause them to rethink the viability of their plans.

Briar and 300th do make good points.  If its not customary to stay late, don't do it.  It may raise concerns with the DA if it looks like you were waiting for them.  Just make sure the owner has good insurance on his business/inventory.  Once the guns are stored safely in the store (as they obviously are), its not your legal responsibility to risk life and limb to prevent every low-life from breaking in and getting their hands on a few guns.  Worst case scenario, you could get seriously injured or dead, or you could be prosecuted if the DA doesn't think it was a clean shoot.  I'm not negating the importance of the responsibility of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, but Art you've got a wife and kids who need you around.  They are your first and utmost responsibility, not protecting the gun store owners livelyhood - if he has good business insurance, he won't loose a dime even if his store is hit.

Sounds like you guys are covering the bases. Only thing I can offer from having seen a few gunstore robberies "after the fact" is try NOT to cover behind dryway. It offers "slightly" more protection than the glass display cases.

As far as machine guns. I do remember a situation where a gun store owner in North Florida resided next to his shop. He was awoken by a breakin where they backed a pickup truck throught the front glass doors and were tossing crap in the back.

Well said owner responded with a registered MP5. Shootout ensued and to this day he has yet to completely get rid of the stains in the showroom carpet.

There are already more than enough illegal stolen guns on the street...
Why "allow" more ???

Why not take precautionary steps to defend your own property and life ?

Unfortunately, the late night schedule is one that we have had for quite some time...
It works for the two of us, and our families at home...

The additional guys that came to "hang-out" were there to prepare for a big upcoming project where extra help will be needed...
We were all in the shop for legitimate reasons anyway...

Chances are, if anything does happen, it will be only the store owner, and myself there working anyway...

The shop has been around for a long time and is in need of a lot of work...
We are just trying to get on top of things...

This is definately NOT an ambush...
Nobody wants to shoot or be confronted by anyone...

Yes, insurance will cover anything that is stolen, but can never bring back someone's life that was snuffed out by the stolen merchandise...

Staying at home neglecting much needed work, avoiding a possible confrontation and "allowing" something to happen is nothing more than a cowering liberal's attitude...

We are mature grown adults, not a bunch of bloodthirsty gang members...
Nobody "WANTS" to shoot and kill anybody, badguy or not...  

We simply want to be best prepared for a possible threat...

Weapons, tactics, and attitude are very important, but restraint is the most important of all...

I guarantee nothing illegal is being done, or WILL be done by myself, the store owner, or anybody that just happens to be there if or when something happens...

This is very serious business, and is being treated with common sense thinking, and proper preparation....  

Cement barriers & using a vehicle blockade was very good advice...
I will mention this to the store owner today...

OH, let the bad guys set your working hours for you.

An ambush?  Yeah, we wouldn't want to hurt any precious bad guys, would we?  The answer here is, if you are a bad guy and don't want your ass blown off, don't break into this gun store, or maybe just stop being a bad guy.

Another bleeding heart.  Oh, please don't hurt them, they are xxxxx (insert misguided, misunderstood, underprivileged, oppressed, or any other number of liberal bleeding heart catch phrases).

But therein lies the rub.  How can a jury determine that deadly force was used "only" to defend property?

A good lawyer could argue that individuals brazen enough to strong-arm a gun store knew that by the store's very nature, there could be armed individuals inside.  And since they continued in the commission of their act, they were willfully agreeing to confront armed individuals to fufill their objective.  

So therefore, the criminals had to have the intent to harm individuals as a means to complete the felony.

Eat that Matlock!

MI, apparently 300 and Brian, both new posters, think that we should all just passively let thieves take anything they want, even if it means guns getting into the hands of bad people.  Oh, just set a passive alarm, blah, blah, blah.  Their plan would just fuel the antis cause, with them saying that gun stores are vulnerable, so let's just shut them down, etc.  I think all gun stores should have night security with orders to shoot to kill any asshole stupid or brazen enough to break in.

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but:

1. PA Law allows the use of deadly force to prevent the comission of a violent felony. I believe robbery qualifies there.

2. PA Law allows the use of deadly force to protect your home and business (so-called "castle" laws). While you can't shoot somebody for tresspassing at an open business establishment, driving a vehicle through the wall to gain entry is a different story.

In any case. if, god forbid, you need to use a weapon to protect the store you better hope your friend's business insurance will cover your legal fees, even if you're found to have no criminal liability. There's always the civil suit to worry about.

LarryG,

I will politely disregard your inference that my opinions are not valid because I have not been posting as long as other more illustrious members of this forum.  I have been lurking AR15.com since it's inception, and have been an avid shooter much, much longer than that.  I was a dealer for a period of time, am employed as an LEO, and am in a N.G. military intelligence unit.  My interests and my employment dictate that I keep abreast of the latest developments in worldwide events, as well as criminal law precedents.  This, I believe, qualifies me to speak on the subject at hand much more than the length of time I have been offering my opinions on this board.  But hey - I guess everyone's entitled to their opinions.  If you want to judge me or Briar based on irrelevant criteria, that's your business.

Back to the issue.  I *CERTAINLY* am not a bleeding heart liberal, and I doubt that Briar or any other honest member of a forum dedicated to the AR-15 is one, either.  I have no love for criminal vermin, nor the slightest regard for their comfort.  I, like most other members of this board, wish that we lived in a world where honest people could mete out justice to unsavory persons without reprisal.  Unfortunately, that is not the case, and summarily doing so will hurt, rather than help our cause.  Dragracer_Art or anyone else is justifed in using deadly force to defend himself or another person from the infliction of death or serious bodily injury, and I don't doubt that this is the last thing he wants to do.  I don't go to work every day thinking, "Gee, I hope I get to shoot someone!", and I suspect Art doesn't either.  I simply wished to offer my advice as to the legal ramifications and possible consequences of guarding a gun store.  While it is likely that Art would be able to prove his case, with many judges, in many courts and juries in this country, it would be a hard sell.  Again, I *PERSONALLY* have no problem with Art defending his property or his life with deadly force, or even taking the offensive and tracking the scumbags down and hanging them from the nearest lightpost, unfortunately my views are not shared by all people, and negative consequences could be in store if these beliefs are acted upon.

Finally, any advice I had was with concern for the well-being of Art and his loved ones, not the criminal elements targeting him.  I make the assumption that Art and those he cares for have a lot to lose if anything were to go wrong.  Loss of livelihood, loss of freedom (worst case incarceration scenario), loss of $$$ if damages were awarded, etc., etc.  Art sounds like he's well aware of the legal issues involved, so I wish him the best of luck.

300thMIBde OUT.

gurad towers armed with quad M2s, firing a deadly cocktail of AP, tracers, and incendary rounds.

seriously, sounds like your ready to put up one helluva fight. i would feel bad for (not) the gang banger that strolls in there with a hi point carbine or a tec9.

We were actually thinking of putting a guy on th roof, but that might be getting carried away...[:D]

Seriously though, we're just in the shop to get work done, not to set up an ambush...
If we were going to stage an ambush, we'd get no work done, and likely go to jail...

Work will still get done, only we'll be wearing body armor, and have a few extra loaded guns nearby...

My Glock 34 holds 19+1, and has the M6 tactical light/laser on it...
It's strapped to my hip at all times...
Within reach is also a Remington 11-87 "turkey" gun (pun intended) loaded with OOBuck, and an AR15 loaded with 30rounds of Winchester Q3131A...
You wouldn't believe the choice of weapons we have to choose from...

'Sorta like a kid in a candy store...

Maybe I could get Shaggy to come "hang out" with one of his beltfed 1919's [:D]

What people are actually stupid enough to try too pull a strong arm robbery on a gun store there victims are surrounded by weapons! I would definetly use the ar15 because anyone robbing a gun store is going too be heavily armed if not they are just stupid, and they might have body armor on and the 223 loves slicing thru the light armor.

Tear gas sounds like a good idea for times when the store is unoccupied. [URL=http://www.stopthecrime.com]Revel Technology[/URL] has both tripwire and electrically-triggered versions, as well as refills. Shouldn't be too difficult to hook one of the electrically operated models to your security system.

...Hell, add some panic switches and wire the tear gas to them, too! You can just the button and duck out the back door the minute anything looks suspicious, and  then wait for the thugs to come out. Nobody's going to be much good in a gunfight after getting tear gassed...

The concrete poles in front of the business is the best idea so far. I work in Baltimore and we have had several gun stores crashed into with stolen cars. They also steal trucks and wrap a chain around the front door and pull it out of the building. One word of advice about staying in the shop late at night with friends "waiting for the bad guys". There was a plumbing supply shop in Baltimore County that had several break ins happen. The store owners (two brothers) camped out over night waiting to be victims again. Sure enough the bad guys came back and ate several rounds of 12 ga. (One suspect dead One alive). The state considered charging the brothers on the basis that they put themselves in harms way and were waiting in an ambush state. I know we all say hats off to the brothers for protecting their business but we also have to think about how these actions will be percieved by the liberal goofs. Just food for thought... Be safe with whatever you choose..... If you want more details send me an email....    

So, just for the fun of it, you are hanging around at 3 a.m. some place where you think a gun fight is likely to happen, all for the purpose of protecting someone else's inventory?  Give me a break.  No flame, but common sense would dictate that you be 20 miles away in bed.  The first rule of winning a gun fight is to be where the gun fight ain't.  I must be an old fuddy duddy.

Go Home!!!  Just kidding it sounds like you guys have WWIII pretty much covered.  If any drove through the wall, they would definately be in trouble.

Point taken.

I think ya'll are being a little too paranoid here. Look at this from tha typical leo/da/lac perspcective. Fearless violent felons are crashing gun stores looking for more weapons and somebody is going to think you're overeacting? C'mon. . When the shell casing reach about say, ankle deep, maybe. Till then, give them hell. You'll hear everything from good riddance/relief to a slap on the back. And it might not hurt to get some advance guidance from the leo's to begin with. The whole idea of self defense is to stop the threat, and this type of threat I'd say is extreme.

See what you can find out about m.o. Call the shops that were hit. Ask questions. Number of actors. Degree of skill. What do they take and what do they leave behind? Are there video's available?  Where are the stolen guns turning up? Is this a drug operation? Maffia, Russian or other? Know what you are up against.

Stage the scene. Nobody is going to think it's an ambush because you put some 500 watt work lights 5 feet off the floor along the wall near your defensive position pointing out eye level toward the expected attack area. Use x10 remote controls and set up an  attack drill.  All on, all off, floods only, etc
Think not only about giving yourself cover, but denying it to an attacker.  Place bubble mirrors strategicaly  to deny visible cover and remove or rearrange hard cover to your advantage. If you expect a fight longer than thirty seconds, how about electronic muffs ready in your retreat /cover position? Can an attacker take cover where only one position has fire cover? Know this before. Do a roleplay  walkthrough. How will you react when their entry vehicle ends up against the back wall and there are more guys coming through the openning?

Your head is your best weapon. Use it or lose it. Not all of these ideas may work for you but it should get you thinking.

RPG,  laws rocket.....etc  those work well

Keep in mind that once the pin is pulled Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.

   To beat a criminal, you must think like a criminal.

   I don't think even a crack-head would bust in on you guys late at night or any other time of day. I think your real threat is the smash and grab you describe. Some of the ideas presented to you seem credible but I have a combination that is unbeatable.

   Buy a $500 beater that you can park in front of the door every night. Put your gun safes (if possible) on the front door wall. Get a high quality video system where the tape recorder is in the gun safe and protected at all times. If all else fails this will give the law something to go on.
   Invite the local LEO's to park in your parking lot for a few minutes during their shift. Even if they only do it once or twice a week. It will always be in the back of the BG's mind that the law might show up at any time.
    You got it covered when your there. Think about when you are not there.

1) Keep loaded guns hanging on the wall. I heard of a case where a robber confiscated employees' guns, but then an employee grabbed a loaded gun off the wall and regained control.

(I just heard 6 gunshots outside. No kidding.)

2) When you hand someone a gun watch to see if they slip a shell, cartridge, or loaded mag in it. In my town it's happened with both a shotgun and a semi-auto handgun.

No flame taken but, could you please show me where I indicated that I was hanging around for the fun of it ???
There is a very real possibility that I may be running this store in the very near future, and I already clearly stated our reasons for being there late night...
We've been there late nights before, and will continue to conduct business as usual, regardless of the threat level...  
Only lately have we taken extra precautions...

Local PD is well aware of who, and how many people are inside the store after hours, and even suggested bullet proof vests while working...

I actually can't believe some folks here are actually saying "stay away", "run and hide"...
"Why LOOK for a gunfight"

My question to you folks is this:

Would you make these same suggestions to a Police Officer when he/she leaves for work everyday ???
They actually GO AFTER the bad guys...We don't.

I'd be willing to bet, if the shop is broken into,(resulting in a confrontation) there will be no shooting at all...
Remember, badguys don't expect armed resistance in a late night "smash-n-grab"...

They'll probably only be armed with a truck, and Craftsmen claw hammers. [:D]