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Posted: 4/17/2002 11:44:01 AM EDT
[#1]
I'm not sure we WANTED him to succeed.
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Posted: 4/17/2002 11:44:01 AM EDT
[#2]
The media fails America every single day.
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Posted: 4/17/2002 11:58:23 AM EDT
[#3]
IIRC, criteria for PASS:
1. broker a cease-fire 2. ensure Israeli pull-out of occupied areas per POTUS grade for this task: FAIL |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 12:10:57 PM EDT
[#4]
it's unrealistic to require that anyone impose peace on the region. if that was his assignment, it was worth a try, but he was destined to fail. i'm sure he knew that when he went. much as i dislike violence, i suspect many more people will die before there's any real chance of peace.
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Posted: 4/17/2002 12:14:17 PM EDT
[#5]
It depends on how you define success. The most lasting peace may come by letting Isreal have at 'em for a while. One never knows exactly what Powell's goal was--whether to try to bring an immediate end to hostilities or to feign the role of peacemaker while secretly giving Isreal the green light to clean out the West Bank. Who knows?
357mag |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 12:15:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Any plan that was based on the assumption that Israel was equilly at fault with the Palistinians was doomed to failure.
Conversly, Arafat is a dead man if he accepts anything less than a total Israeli surrender. Untill Hamas and Islamic Jihad are removed from the equation forget it. Course I am not convinced that Arafat doesnt use Hamas and IJ as a convinent excuse, I think he likes what they do, they are just behaving as he did in the old days. Now that he is head of the PA he has to restrain his own efforts in order to keep the US food aid flowing... |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 12:16:59 PM EDT
[#7]
I really wouldnt consider his "mission" a "failure". I mean the isreali/palestinian conflict has been going on for like 10 years or so hasnt it? It will take alot in my opinion to resolve thier conflict IF thats even possible.
Of corse i am a BIG powell supporter anyway so my opinion is obviously showing favoritism. Colin Powell=DA MAN!! |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 12:18:00 PM EDT
[#8]
1) The conventional wisdom is that the war on Iraq cannot begin until things are settled in Israel/West Bank.
2) It will NEVER be settled. 3) This is not news, to anyone. 4) What if it is discovered that Iraq is helping the PLO, in an attempt to keep things chaotic, in order to delay our attack? |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 12:18:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I'm not sure we WANTED him to succeed. i am _VERY SURE_ that "we" _DIDN'T WANT_ him to succeed. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 12:50:23 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Quoted: I'm not sure we WANTED him to succeed. i am _VERY SURE_ that "we" _DIDN'T WANT_ him to succeed. When I said "we" I meant the United States. I think Bush had to send him for appearance's sake, but I think he would rather see Israel root out Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the gang before withdrawing. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 1:01:54 PM EDT
[#11]
We need to figure out how to attack Iraq from Turkey only. And screw the Arab states.
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Posted: 4/17/2002 1:14:24 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: When I said "we" I meant the United States. I think Bush had to send him for appearance's sake, but I think he would rather see Israel root out Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the gang before withdrawing. ahh. when i said "we," i meant the current administration. i agree that the trip was largely a political show. i don't think things are quite working out the way the administration wants them, on a global scale. i also don't think that "rooting out" extremist faith-based groups is a realistic goal. you can't kill the ideology. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 2:37:28 PM EDT
[#13]
They won't stop killing each other until no one is left. Not likely to stop soon.
Nobody will succeed at stopping this but I don't happen to think that Powell is cut out for Sec of State. He should've picked a different post. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 3:58:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: i also don't think that "rooting out" extremist faith-based groups is a realistic goal. you can't kill the ideology. Sure you can, you just have to kill a LOT of them. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 4:17:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: i also don't think that "rooting out" extremist faith-based groups is a realistic goal. you can't kill the ideology. Hold to that correct thought. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 4:48:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Sure you can, you just have to kill a LOT of them. yes, hence not a realistic goal unless extermination is an acceptable end. it will not progress that far, even though Sharon has most likely thought it through many, many times. we are already seeing the rumblings of the next World War. and, as per usual, we will be late to the party yet again. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 4:59:44 PM EDT
[#17]
There is no doubt that Powell's efforts to break the impasse between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat were unsuccessful. But that does not necessarily mean his trip was a failure.
The situation in Israel was a secondary priority. Powell's main mission was to gain cooperation from the region's Arab states to keep the conflict contained so it didn't break into a regional or World War like the Israelis wanted. On that score, Powell seems to have succeeded. DaMan |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 5:08:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: The situation in Israel was a secondary priority. Powell's main mission was to gain cooperation from the region's Arab states to keep the conflict contained so it didn't break into a regional or World War like the Israelis wanted. DaMan Interesting. What is your source of information for this assertion? How do you know what the Israelis "Wanted"? Please be specific, listing sources. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 5:19:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: The situation in Israel was a secondary priority. Powell's main mission was to gain cooperation from the region's Arab states to keep the conflict contained so it didn't break into a regional or World War like the Israelis wanted. DaMan Interesting. What is your source of information for this assertion? How do you know what the Israelis "Wanted"? Please be specific, listing sources. You're not paying attention. Did you read the post by Orion526? It contained this: Colin Powell=DA MAN!! Obviously he just asked them. [:D] Personally, I think Gen. Powell is a better soldier than statesman. He is a liberal puke who has stated many times his full support for "reasonable gun control measures." He refuses to say that [b]any[/b] particular gun control law is unreasonable. He seems incongruous in the Bush Administration. Put him beside a man like Ashcroft and a woman like Condoleeza Rice and he is very lame. I don't think he is there for ability/idealogy, but rather, his popularity. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 5:36:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Interesting. What is your source of information for this assertion? How do you know what the Israelis "Wanted"? Please be specific, listing sources. How do I know that the Israelis wanted to widen this into a regional or World War??!! I read their open source publications and heard what their "cheerleaders" were chanting and wanted! I also watched the situation on the ground. I noted how the Syrians were moving their troops back into the Bakaa and Lebanese government forces moved up. This made an invasion of Lebanon and attack on Syrian troops by Israel more politically difficult. Israel would surely have gone into the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon and the Gaza if they hadn't been reigned in! Israel could still throw some more tantrums. The BIG PICTURE IS IRAQ! So far, the USA has been able to keep out of the neighborhood feud! Eric's probably in mourning! DaMan |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 5:44:18 PM EDT
[#21]
I have zero use for "Colon" Powell! The more humiliation that can be piled on him the happier I am.We have him to thank for undermining Schwartkopf (pardon the spelling Norm!!). "Colon" blew it in the Gulf war and I have a long memory. So, thebeekeeper1, I must disagree with your opinion of "Colon" as a soldier.
Any peace that does not include Arafathead dead or tried and hanged will fail. Less than a surrender by the idiots of the PA will just assure further cowardly acts of terror. The sooner the all out Mideast war starts, the sooner we can solve this problem. I just hope the administration can find the balls to fight it with an adequate level of violence for an all out victory; nothing less. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 5:46:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: Interesting. What is your source of information for this assertion? How do you know what the Israelis "Wanted"? Please be specific, listing sources. How do I know that the Israelis wanted to widen this into a regional or World War??!! I read their open source publications and heard what their "cheerleaders" were chanting and wanted! I also watched the situation on the ground. I noted how the Syrians were moving their troops back into the Bakaa and Lebanese government forces moved up. This made an invasion of Lebanon and attack on Syrian troops by Israel more politically difficult. Israel would surely have gone into the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon and the Gaza if they hadn't been reigned in! Israel could still throw some more tantrums. The BIG PICTURE IS IRAQ! So far, the USA has been able to keep out of the neighborhood feud! Eric's probably in mourning! DaMan Thanks, DaMan. I must admit, though, that your "sources" leave a little bit to be desired on the credibility scale. I'm still a little hazy on how you "know" that the Israelis would "surely" have invaded other areas, given their druthers. Perhaps you can expand on this last assertion, as well. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 5:52:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse Any peace that does not include Arafathead dead or tried and hanged will fail. Less than a surrender by the idiots of the PA will just assure further cowardly acts of terror. The sooner the all out Mideast war starts, the sooner we can solve this problem. I just hope the administration can find the balls to fight it with an adequate level of violence for an all out victory; nothing less. Should an all-out war break out in the middle east you can kiss the United States economy goodbye. That includes the economies of Japan and Europe as well. The winners of your nightmare scenario would likely be China and Russia. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 5:57:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Thanks, DaMan. I must admit, though, that your "sources" leave a little bit to be desired on the credibility scale. I'm still a little hazy on how you "know" that the Israelis would "surely" have invaded other areas, given their druthers. Oh, well! Guess you'll have to come up with your OWN sources! [:P] DaMan |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 6:03:13 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: Thanks, DaMan. I must admit, though, that your "sources" leave a little bit to be desired on the credibility scale. I'm still a little hazy on how you "know" that the Israelis would "surely" have invaded other areas, given their druthers. Oh, well! Guess you'll have to come up with your OWN sources! [:P] DaMan Yes, I guess I'll have to do just that. Unfortunately, none of them are likely to be psychic, like some of yours seem to be. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 6:07:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Hell, raf! I gave you 95% of what you wanted! [:P]
DaMan |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 6:13:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Hell, raf! I gave you 95% of what you wanted! [:P] DaMan Actually, you named no sources at all, not even the psychics. So you gave me 0%, not 95%. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 6:23:05 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: So, thebeekeeper1, I must disagree with your opinion of "Colon" as a soldier. We agree, actually. I could have been more clear. I said a better soldier than statesman--which, in my manner of thinking means better than extremely piss-poor, which is still not "good." Basically, I see him as an acceptable general, as far as I know (only because I am aware of nothing to the contrary), but, based upon what I know to be true, he is an extremely poor statesman. Those more knowledgeable can correct me, but I don't believe you can accurately pin the premature ending of the Gulf War on him. "Enough" is declared by politicians, not warriors, in our system of government. Again, I really don't know how he is/was perceived as a general. Perhaps he is somewhat responsible for all the PC crap in the military. If so, I would despise him on all sides. Anyway, I hope I have been clear that I am no fan of his. |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 6:30:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Quoted: Hell, raf! I gave you 95% of what you wanted! [:P] DaMan Actually, you named no sources at all, not even the psychics. So you gave me 0%, not 95%. raf, would you accept 88% as a down payment and let me pay the other 7% in installments ?? |
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Posted: 4/17/2002 10:24:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Who was it that said that Diplomacy is the Art of Stalling your Foe until you find a larger stick.
Ben |
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Posted: 4/18/2002 12:15:39 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Who was it that said that Diplomacy is the Art of Stalling your Foe until you find a larger stick. Ben I think the quote is: "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggy' while you reach for a stick." Don't recall who said it though. |
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