I want to know.  I've skirted this issue before and now wish to address it directly.  I departed the Southern Baptist at about age twelve and have never looked backed.


I am an Agnostic.
I have a deep belief in God but do not accept any of the Prophets or Messiahs.

Per the Christian faith, and maybe others as well, does this doom me to hell ??



(4000 posts is not an achievement.  However, 4000 posts and nothing of significance or value posted - now that's an achievement !!)

Does your deep belief in God extend to your acceptance of Christ? That would be the deciding factor.

probably. but if not, then cardplaying, cursing, drinking, smoking, dancing, and chasing women sure will. unless, of course, youre a minister. i suspect the parties are much more interesting in hell.

I accept none of the Messiahs or Prophets.

If so, I'll see you there.

The first Jack and Coke and lapdance are on me.

What do you mean by that?  My dictionary defines agnostic as "a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god," so I take it you're not really applying that definition to yourself.

What do you mean that you have a deep belief in God?  In his existence?  In specific things about his character?  About his interaction (or lack thereof) with human history?  About his interaction with your life?  About his purpose for you and your life?

What do you mean that you don't accept any of the prophets or messiahs?  Do you believe they were all wrong in what they said about God?  Do you believe they were all wrong about claiming to speak for God or have a message from him?  In other words, do you believe they were all a bunch of liars, or do you just not have much use for other people telling you what to believe whether right or wrong?

You have answered your own question.  If you don't believe (or in) Jesus Christ then you have no way to the Father.

there you have it. christians will assert that you burn if you dont accept jesus christ as your savior.

Yeah, probably.  But if you get there first, you'll have seniority by the time we get there.

Satan is waiting for you! [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/devil_2.gif[/img][img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/FIREdevil.gif[/img]

[url]http://www.churchofsatan.com/[/url]

Since Jesus Christ taught that this was true, and Christians base thier beliefs on the teachings of Christ, why does this suprise you?

Christ claimed to be the only method of salvation.

You can either say that he is an idiot, and doesn't know what he is talking about.  That he is an accomplished liar, and decided to die for somthing that he knew was false. That he is speaking the truth.

You decide.

5subsir5..I'll be there with Jarhead 22 so you'll be in good company...and I'm sure their will be plenty more joining us from here  [}:D]

Not my job to determine whether ANYBODY is going to heaven or hell.  I'll not judge.

However according to the New Testament, yeah, you'd have to accept the Messiah.

Viper Out

This is the Christian 'prequalification'... your beliefs don't matter unless you 'accept Jesus'

I myself am more of a 'nondenominational Christian'... even then, there are a lot of tenets of Christianity with which I disagree.  A lot of my personal beliefs come from Deism, especially, that, regardless of what you believe, if you live a good life, you will acheive virtue in the end.

Post from 5subslr5 -

First off, [b]subsailor[/b], we are told not to judge any man, so I can't say anything about what your present disposition with the issue of final judgment might be.

But, let me tell you my story and see if it sounds like something you may have seen before:

The reason that I believe in a God at all was simply because I had read the Prophets and saw what was said of the long-anticipated Savior of the world. Every day brings me more and more 'proof' for what I believe.

Now, I was predisposed to believe in those Prophets and the words which they wrote or uttered because I was raised in a very Christ-centered home.

I learned from an early age that both of my parents, both college-graduates and very well read, believed in this God and His Son.

So I did too.

But later, as I grew older, I strayed from my original course, and, while I continued to believe in this God and His Son, I failed to do anything that either would have wished me to do. So I hid from them.

For seven years I failed to go to church. I did not pray as often as I should have. My conduct was far, very far, from what it should have been.

My sins crushed the life out of my first wife, and, though I continued to live with her for the sake of my daughter, I left as soon as I thought it was convenient to do so.

If I could go back and do it all over again, I would never have strayed. I received nothing for what I did that would ever compensate me for the hurt that I caused to the mother of my child. Nor the hurt that my actions caused the One Who loved me before I was even born.

But at the time, I wasn't as smart as I am now.

I finally met the second Miz Hun and have returned to the straight and narrow.

[b]Thank God![/b] And because I met her, my daughter met a friend of Miz Hun's son, and they are now happly married and are raising my wonderful little granddaughter, Kristin!

BTW, the first Miz Hun and I are very good friends now. We discuss our daughter, our granddaughter, and politics, which she was always very good at discussing. I missed her.
A lot.

She has now forgiven me. I never have. It is likely I never will.

Jesus never left me, but I ran away from Him as fast as my sinful spindly legs could carry me!

But, I'm back now, and I never ever intend to hurt Him again.

Do me a favor, [b]subsailor[/b], if you will.

Go and rent 'Jesus of Nazareth' by Franco Ziffirelli (1977) and watch it by yourself. OK, you can have the chows with you, but no one else.

It comes in three-set tape and when you get to Jesus' story of the Prodigal Son in the middle of the second tape, just let me know if you can make it through the scene with dry eyes.

If you [u]can't[/u], welcome to the Club, Brother![:D]

Eric The(Redeemed,Hopefully,Forever)Hun[>]:)]

Per the Baptists, it certainly does.  Per the Catholics, well...it depends on which Catholic you talk to.  Some more liberal Protestant denominations don't believe in a literal hell.
As for other religions, Judaism doesn't really believe in an afterlife in the way Christianity does, if I am not mistaken.  Islam...well, not only do I not KNOW how you get to the Islamic paradise, I don't really even care.
Your best bet is Zoroastrianism, where you get into heaven or get sent to hell based on good and bad things you've done in your life.  
But frankly, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  If there is a God, and if He cared enough about us to make a nice place for us to go after we die (assuming it is "us" that survives, which I don't believe possible) then I doubt He would be petty and immature enough to send someone to everlasting torture for the crime of simply not worshipping Him in the correct fashion.  That's more of a barbaric human sentiment than anything that would come from a perfect, all-powerful God.

Are you being serious? Are you asking how to get to Heaven or are you just wanting our opinion on what your religious scorecard is?

I am going to believe that you are in fact looking for answers. (BTW, I have no answers but will be happy to share what I believe and what my ath was, your milage may vary.) I too was 'turned off' of organized religion in my early teens. I strayed from Jesus and thumbed my nose at how I had been raised. Later in my life, I became a Paramedic and began to see people at their worst and saw the worst that we can do to each other. I was supposed to be able to shut off my emotions and care for these people medically without 'caring' for them personally. This worked for a while but then I found that I was unable to cope by myself and began to look for help. I initially found help in a bottle, but that help was temporary and ended badly. I then looked to others to help but even though they were willing, they had problems of their own and could not really understand what I was going through. After trying to solve my problems myself I finally swallowed my pride and returned to Jesus and asked Him for the help I needed dealing with my job and my life.
It was the best decision I have ever made and probably the hardest to live by.
As I look at the history of Christianity as a religion, I almost ashamed to be a Christian because of all of the evil men have done in Christ's name to further their own goals. God's intention for us is clealry spelled out in the Bible, but when human get involved, they seem to mess it all up. Because of this I am leery of organized religions, instead I look to casual fellowship with other people that believe in Jesus. Small Bible study groups and prayer groups have replaced churches in my religious life.
If you (or anyone else reading this) is serious about learning more about Jesus, or just wants some questions answered, talk to a friend that you respect and that is knowledgable. There are several members here that would welcome an email and would love to talk to you. (You can add my name to that list.)

B.T. Party,
perhaps my belief is not the dictionary definition of Agnostic - truly I don't know that I have ever checked.

I deeply believe in God but do not believe any of the Prophets or Messiahs were anything but mortal men.  I wait for no new Messiah nor do I await any second coming.

I reject any religion that would damn a new born infant to hell or in fact damn any entire group of people - Jews, Muslim's, etc., - to hell.

Just as strongly I reject Atheists.

Probably more of a scorecard or how do todays Christians believe.

(Garandman went through a series of Q&A with me that was helpful.)

I'm considerably older (61) than the average age here and will soon have left the Baptists for 50 years.  

Wondering if much has changed in the last 50 years ?

And you would be right, of course.

But think about this...

If we don't worship God for EXACTLY who He is, then  we aren't really worshipping God. We are worshipping some "god" we have re-shaped into an image that we find acceptable.

God claimed that He sent His Son to die for mans sins, that thru repentance and turning from sins, man might receive eternal life as a gift from God. Jesus Christ claimed the same of Himself.

If a man worships a "god" other than the God described in the paragraph IMMEDIATELY above, (i.e. he does not receive Christ as Saviour)  then he is not really worshipping God. He's in esence claiming that Christ is NOT who He claimed to be. He's worshipping himself, as he retains the right to shape God any way he pleases (by choosing to DISBELIEVE what God claimed re: His own Son).

And God would be QUITE just for condemning to hell someone who worships himself.

subslr -

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me."


-- Jesus Christ

Although long ago I once did attend church.
By the time I was 12 I knew all the reasons I was doomed but - to me- it also appeared everyone I knew anything about was also doomed.

I'm thinking the bus is gonna be crowded.

Other than a brand new bunch of people trying to further thier own aims by jumping on the religion bandwagon, nothing has changed. There is still only one way to not go to Hell, become redeemed in the blood fo Jesus. Accept Jesus into your heart and ask for his forgiveness and redemption. You will be amazed at the immediate profound change in your life!! That incredible feeling of peace and love is why I 'beat the drum', so more people can experience it! BTW, I only beat the drum when asked. I am not suggesting that being saved will all of the sudden make life easy, in fact when you go AWOL from the Devil's flock and join God's, the argument could be made that Satan will make your life more difficult. But who do you want on your side? Backing the Devil, (there are only two sides in this fight) is betting on a loser, here on Earth and in eternity.

There is a lot of (semi)humorous and cavalier statements regarding Hell, lapdances, drinking, being with your friends or being away from religious people on this thread. Would there be as many if all of you really thought hard about the concept of eternity? Try to wrap your minds around the concept of forever....and then think of suffering indescribable pain and torture for eternity. Now that you have that unpopular scene in your head, think of your loved ones being right beside you screaming in pain along with you.....forever. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that just being a good person in this life will keep you from this Hell. And do not assume that a just and loving God would not cast his creations into Hell for eternity. He said he would and he will, count on it.

G. Man,
I know that you and the HUN are believers and often follow your verbal jousting regarding the Bible with more than passing interest.

I am familiar with the phrase above.

Perhaps I 'have' simply invented a God with which I am comfortable.  But I don't believe that is so.  I believe it possible to believe in the one true God but not the Prophets and Messiahs.  

I reject that idea that anything or anyone stands between God and myself.  I simply do not believe that.

Post from 5subslr5 -

First off, you needn't worry about the new born infants of any religion, race or nationality being sent to Hell by the Judeo-Christian God.

The atoning Death of Christ on Calvary saved all infants and children for all times, everywhere, from being sent to Hell.

When they reach the age of discernment, all bets are off!

But when you identify other religions, instead of races or nationalities of peoples, as being on the road to Hell, well, we have a problem.

Christianity defines itself as the sole means for escaping the punishment of Hell for all adults. Its Founder says it explicitly. All of the Church Fathers say it without hesitation.

It is up to Christians to change the others' minds and to teach them to accept Christianity.

We did real well at first, and then error began to creep into the church, at least the way it was being run at the hands of its leaders.

The first time a Christian put another Christian to death, or any other person for that matter, over a religious dispute is when the Early Church failed, and a great 'falling away' occurred.

The church itself continued in the hearts and souls of some of its practitioners, but the political-social-nationalist Church was to be feared by Christians and non-Christians, alike.

The church will continue until such time as its Founder returns for it one bright and glorious morning. Soon I hope.

Nevertheless, Jesus once questioned that when He returned would He find faith on the earth!

As always, it was and is a very good question.

Eric The(Redeemable)Hun[>]:)]

Post from 5subslr5 -

I reject that, as well, [b]subsailor![/b]

Maybe this is not the time to get into a long and involved discussion of 'the Trinity', but salvation has always been, and will always be, about [u]your[/u] relationship to God. Period.

That relationship may require that some things be done in what you might think is a comical, or unreasonable, or idiotic manner, but that is between you and God. If He wants you to find Him, and trust me, He does, and you want to find Him, then you will find Him, though all the world tries to prevent it!

Eric The(Helpful)Hun[>]:)]

I guess I was just trying to figure out where you were coming from.  You don't sound anything like what I think of when I picture an agnostic.  The last thing I expect to hear them say is that they hold a deep belief in God.  That's why I asked what you meant by a belief in God.  



So you're talking mainly about Jesus then?  You talk about prophets and messiahs in general, of which there are many, from many different places, times, and religions, but most of the prophets don't claim to be anything but mortal messengers.  Jesus made the claim to be something more than a mortal man and that he would come again in power and glory.  So am I right to assume you're mainly talking about him?  (It seemed pretty audacious to me that you would discredit all prophets in one fell swoop.)



So it sounds to me like you are saying that you believe in God, you don't believe Jesus was anything more than a man, and you have trouble with some of things taught by organized religions or maybe some of their adherents or teachers in particular.

I can completely understand having difficulties with things that are taught in many churches and proclaimed by many Christians.  I think it's unfortunate that many churches don't encourage people who are doubting or questioning to work through their doubts and would rather give a quick rule or one-size-fits-all answer.  I don't think those churches are "Christian", that is to say, I don't think they are being very much like Jesus Christ.

But at the same time, I wonder how you think we approach God or on what basis he will judge us when we die?  Is it by good works?  To me, the message that Christ brings is a welcome relief, that "now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known" and that "this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."  It feels deeply right in my soul that God wants men to trust him, that he is not concerned about all the rules and rituals.  "The chief end and duty of man is to glorify God and deeply enjoy him forever." (Westminster Catechism)  I have a lot of trouble with stuff that gets said in churches.  I've been in a few Southern Baptist churches and have a lot of good Southern Baptist friends, but the way things get emphasized there, IMHO, turn a lot of people away from God rather than draw them to him.  I have yet to find a church I completely agree with.  But I don't think that's the point of a church and don't let that stop me from learning from them or being part of them.  What I'm trying to say is that if the church has turned you off on Christianity, I would encourage you not to let that be the final word on what you think of Christ.

But of course we can't KNOW exactly who God is or even if He exists at all.  All we can do is believe, and no matter what we believe, we are taking the risk that it is the wrong thing.
I think an all-powerful, perfect God would understand this and not sentence us to eternal torture for believing the wrong version...if there is a wrong version.
Not to say that God would want to hang out with just ANYONE...He might, as some believe, just allow those whom He finds disagreeable to die permanently, without ressurection.
But eternal torture?  Naw.  Too human, too stupid, too wasteful for a perfect, all-powerful God.

Well, let me tread carefully here.....

Jesus Christ made the claim that He is very God of very God. Any other understanding of Him that I might beleive in IS re-inventing God in my own fashion.

According to the Scriptural teaching of the Trinity (even Scripture does not fully explain the concept) Christ is both a mediator to God the Father, AND God Himself.

But here's the good news -

You are INCAPABLE of conjuring up the faith to beleive in Christ. It is a gift from God, who will give you that faith if you ask Him for it.

You beleive in God. Pray to Him to reveal to you whether Jesus Christ is either very God, or an unnecessary phony.

Remember, there is ONLY ONE Messiah - Jesus Christ. And  a prophet is NOTHING of himself. A prophets ONLY value is in the God the prophet claims to serve. If that God is worthless, so is the prophet.

No one gets to heaven because of his own merits or righteousness.  Everyone is imperfect and so justice demands punishment.  Jesus took the punishment for you so all you have to do to get to God is BELIEVE.

Hope you find it

Why?  God is perfect and we are imperfect.  The only thing standing between man and God is sin.  There are descriptions in the old testament of what happens to an unholy person coming into the overwhelmingly Holy presence of God.  Try to imagine the terror that you would experience coming into the perfect presence of a being that has the power to create all.  His goodness wouldn't tolerate our imperfections.  Jesus paid for our imperfections, making us righteous in God's eyes, allowing us to enter his presence.  I hope to see you there.

You would be right again.

However, it is part of the nature of God to give man partial truth, and see what He does with it. If He handles it well, God then reveals truth.

That's not unlike parents today. Give your child a pellet gun, and if he handles it well, then a 22 LR and in time maybe a .308. You just don't go giving Jr. a Barrett 50 for his sixth birthday.

Same is true of God. He's not gonna reveal Himself FULLY to me if He sees I can't handle the Scripturally revealed truth well.

God told us enuf about Himself to beleive that He DOES exist, and he sent Jesus to earth to make a way of entering into a relationship with God the Father. God is waiting to see how you and I handle that truth BEFORE He will reveal Himself any further to us.




Therein lies MUCH of man's dilemma.  While thinking is good, that fact that a man cannot conceive something mentally SHOULD NOT prohibit him from beleiving.

I cannot conceive of a disease called cancer. But I KNOW my wife had it - and may relapse into it.

I cannot conceive of how much she loves me. yet she does, and I depend upon that love.

Absolutely use your mind, but don't let it hold you back from your greater potential - spirituality within the confines of God's revealed truth, the Word of God.

There is a HUGE difference though...we know with a great degree of certainty who our parents our, and know what they are saying is really their words.  We can't know that about the differing versions of God and His word offered to us.  So your analogy falls apart right there.



You're making the huge assumption that what you believe to be His scriptures are indeed His words.  There is no reason to believe the Christian Bible is any more correct than the Hindu holy book.



No, you BELIEVE He's told us that.  There is no objective reason to assume that is so.  It's faith, belief without proof.  And thus, my original points still stand.



Why can you not conceive of cancer?  It's fairly simple in nature, if mysterious in exact cause.  
As for me not being able to conceive of a God that is so petty, juvenile and barbaric that He would sentence the humans He created to eternal torture for simply worshipping the wrong version of Him, well...let's just say that this is so inconceivable that if it turned out to be factual, I wouldn't WANT to worship that sort of God, for whatever His power and knowledge, He would be morally inferior to me and to many other people I know.  He wouldn't be much of a God and I would consider myself His enemy, even if that meant I too was going to eternal torture.  To do otherwise would be akin to a Jew collaborating with the Nazis to avoid being sent to the concentration camps.



It's only your belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God.  Others believe the word of God to be the Koran, or the Vedas, or the Book of Mormon.  I don't see any reason to believe you over them or them over you.  The most likely scenario is that all of those books are the works of humans.

Original sin, being born already in the hole, sounds a lot like corruption of blood to me, and I don't buy it. I have a hard time buying into a god that does, frankly.

[b]OH I am Sooooooo there!!![/b]

Either that or I will be worm food......frankly I am bettin on the worm food deal.


Wiggy.......sorry bud but you appear to have WIGGED OUT!!

Like I said...my hell will be LAP DANCING....

Or perhaps I will be stuck in a room with a bunch of Christians.......LOL  Now wouldnt that be a total hell!  Oh but wait.....there would be any christians there....So we are back to PARTY TIME!!


But I digress......Bring on the WORMS!
( actually I am donating my body to science and will therefore be cremated)

I think the analogy stands in that just as a parent doles out priviledge based on the handling of responsibility, God doles out revelation based on the response to obvious truth. What is obvious is that man has a sinful nature, which evidences itself in varying degrees of evil, from simple selfishness on the low end, to Sept 11 on the high end. What we do with that obvious truth will limit what additional truth God allows us to see.

And in reality, a child knows scant little about their parents at the tender age of 6-10 yrs old. They are too wrapped up in their own little world to know much about their parents. Parents are basically a source of toys and punishment in the eyes of a 6-10 year old.

For an adult, God is MUCH more knowable than a parent is to a 6-10 year old.







Don't misunderstand. God condemns NO ONE to hell for an honest, erroneous version of worship.

God DOES condemn men to hell as they have the sinful nature I described above (which evidences itself in varying degrees of wrong doing) and then REFUSE God's freely provided cure for that sin nature - salvation in Jesus Christ.(Ironically, I'm offerrring you that cure right now, in explaining it to you. Are you refusing it???)

That no more makes God "petty or barbaric" than a doctor is petty or barbaric who ALLOWS a patient to REFUSE medicine, and that patient dies due to his own refusal of  a medicine.

What can you do with people who refuse a cure???? You let them determine their own fate.

God is too pure to tolerate any sin. He offers the cure. Men make their choices. God is "forced" to live with their choices (this gets into the doctrine of whether man has a free will, which is beyond the scope of this forum)

Allow me to officially refuse your so called cure....

As they say...the cure is worse than the disease.  This is specially true for hypochondriacs.

As to my fate??  Well how kind of you to allow me/us to determine it ourselves.....Really you should'nt have...REALLY!!


Cheers

But we are not 6-10 years old forever.  If God wants to treat us in perpetuity like we're 6-10 years old, that would be a mistake, which I thought God was incapable of making.



I refuse to believe it because it makes no sense whatsoever.  God Himself would have known when He created humanity that they would end up being sinful, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY that the vast majority of them (BILLIONS through the millenia) would wind up not accepting Jesus and therefore God is the one ultimately responsible for condemning them to eternal torture (if that is your concept of Hell---as I said before, some have other ideas about it).
I have yet to see an apologist who can come up with a satisfactory rebuttal of this fact.



Not a good analogy, because the patient can check the doctor's credentials and get second opinions.  When it comes to religious beliefs, there are no credentials other than that belief's writings gives itself and there is no consensus of professional opinion.  Also, with a medical treatment, you can determine if it worked in other people before accepting it.  Since we can't observe what happens after death, we do not know if a particular belief about the afterlife is correct.



Then He was a damn fool for creating a whole race that He KNEW BEFOREHAND would sin and reject Him, huh?

[....]

Post from garandman -

Scripture????

Do you have scriptural support for that statement?

Eric The([s]TRULY[/s][u]Conditionally[/u]Saved)Hun[>]:)]

Why bother asking? Why do you care?

Ahhhh, but there is reason!  Fulfilled Prophecy! The bible is full of prophecy, and history verifies it's fulfillment. We are witness to some of it in our own life times.....
I don't think the hindu holy book can make the same claim.

yeah - its the verse right after the one about Israeli armored bulldozers. [}:D]

My point- which I thought to be self-explanatory - was that no one goes to hell because he chooses the Lutheran liturgy over the Presbyterian liturgy. Or the Catholic church over the Baptist church.

A man's salvation determines a man's destiny - not his liturgy.

Do you NEED a verse for that???? How bout John 3:16????

[rolleyes]

Now theres a subjective standard.

In the 1700's, the most skilled doctors refused to beleive using leeches to bleed a man was NOT a good thing, cuz "it made no sense to them."

Yet for over 2,000 years prior to that, God's Holy Word, the Bible, had told them that "the life of the flesh was IN the blood."

Men refused to beleive the earth was round cuz it made no sense to them. Even tho God gave them the moon so they could SEE the earth's outline, and know it was round. What makes sense to man is about as subjective and irrelevant standard as I can imagine. I could go on and on.

Rik -

You can take any analogy I make (aprents doling our responsibility, doctors doling out medicine) , and beat it to the point it breaks down. I'm not trying to prove Scriptural truth via human analogy. I'm merely using analogy to illustrate the workings of Scriptural truth. [b]Scriptural truth stands whether or not I can create an indesctructable analogy.[/b]

I think we have perhaps reached the end of meaningful debate here. Feel free to respond (I'm always interested in your analyses) and then we'll hit it again another time.

No?  You'd be wrong.
First off, most Biblical prophecies are either 1) too vague and could thus be applied (and HAVE been applied) to many different events through history or
2) too likely to happen.  For instance, to say "city x will fall and be ground in the dust" is a very safe bet if city x has been sacked and burned a dozen times in their recorded history
or
3) are "fulfilled" by events that are recorded only by those that believed they were fulfilled.
For instance, there's a whole list of prophecies that are supposedly fulfilled with the birth of Jesus, but the ONLY sources we have that say this are ones in whose interest it was that they be fulfilled.

And you would be inaccurate.  These things were not UNIVERSALLY believed.  There have been other civilizations that existed before and current with those you mentioned that had more accurate ideas about science.  People have known the Earth was round since classical times.
This is where ALL your analogies fall apart and actually prove my point: in all of them, it is POSSIBLE to know the facts of a matter.
In religious issues it is NOT POSSIBLE.



That's because they are bad analogies.



And failing, because your point ignores the fact that we CANNOT KNOW that your scriptures are true.  You can believe it, you can have faith in it, but you CANNOT KNOW it.
It all comes back to the fact that you believe that an all powerful, perfect God would condemn to eternal torture anyone that doesn't believe and worship the correct version of him, and I don't.
I think my reasons for disbelieving this are sound and have yet to see an argument that would rock them.

And here is the crux of the matter.
For me belief in God will simply have to be enough.

Post from garandman -

Since 'liturgy' is not a word to be found in the Bible, why not use Christian 'doctrine' in referring to the manner in which Jesus has asked us to conduct our lives?

'Doctrine' is a word that is used often in the New Testatment, especially when describing the new 'doctrine' that Jesus was teaching to the Jews! Look up the word in any concordance and see if there's anything you can detect from its use.

In [b]2 Timothy, Chapter 4[/b], we are warned:

2   Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3   [b]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears[/b];

4   And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

So getting the doctrine of Christ correct is the first duty of a Christian, and certainly one who preaches to other Christians.

Well, Jesus commanded us to do certain things.

Such as [b]believe[/b] upon Him, [b]repent[/b] of our sins, [b]confess His name[/b] before Men, [b]be baptized[/b] by water and spirit, and, finally, to continue in His goodness.

If you [b]fail[/b] to do all of this, and teach others that it is unnecessary to do all this, well....

[b]Matthew, Chapter 28:[/b]

19 [red][b]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, [u]baptizing[/u] them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20   [u]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you[/u]: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.[/b][/red]

So how can a Christian lightly say, 'You do not need to do such and such a thing' if the Lord Himself has commanded it?

I hope that you would read and understand [u]all[/u] of John, Chapter 3, including verse 5:

'Jesus answered, [red][b]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[/b][/red]

So tell me, [b]garandman[/b], is water baptism necessary to enter into the Kingdom of God?

Eric The(OrIsThat[u]Too[/u]'Liturgical'?)Hun[>]:)]

[i]Luke 23 -

32And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.
33   And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
39   And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40   But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41   And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42   And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy [b]kingdom.[/b]
43   And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, [b]Today [/b]shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]

Kingdom = paradise.


Unless Jesus had a special "No baptism" deal running for people hanging on crosses, then NO, baptism is NOT necessary to enter into God's kingdom.

You mentioned having a daughter, so I presume you are familiar with at least the man's part in the biology of the birth process. [}:D]

ALlow me to lightly familiarize you with the female part.

Ever hear the term "My water broke?"

Unless a man be "born of water..."

Get it????

The context of Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus bears this out. Nicodemus asked 'Can a man enter into the womb the second time, and be born??"

Jesus answered with the Scripture you gave. BOTh physical (born of water) and spiritual birth (born of the spirit) are necessary for salvation.

If baptism was necessary for salvation, we should FORBID death bed conversions. In addition, NONE of the OT saints then entered heaven as they were never baptized.

Baptism is a symbol to the unbeleiving to identify with Christ. Nothing more.

Post from garandman -

Lord, have mercy upon us all!

Surely, garandman, this is [b]not[/b] your answer to my question on the necessity of water baptism for salvation?

You, of all people on this Board, should know the answer to why the [b]penitent thief[/b] [u]may[/u] [u]not[/u] have been baptized and yet still have gone into the Kingdom with Christ?

You rail about it constantly! Don't you know?

Then let me explain:

First, if this were the only mention of water baptism in the New Testament, then we would be entitled to have a fair amount of discussion concerning what Jesus must have meant when He said [red][b]'Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'[/b][/red]

Now, since it is Jesus Who is speaking, we are talking about the Creator of all life on this planet and in this universe. He is the very one Who thought up the manner of human reproduction. If the creation is His, then He is well aware of how human babies come into this world. They are born, live, after having been contained in a womb surrounded by amniotic fluid. If this amniotic fluid is the 'water' to which you believe Jesus refers, when he mentions being born 'of water,' then tell me why He even mentioned this first birth? What human being is born who was not washed in the 'water' of his/her mother's womb?

He's speaking to Nicodemus, who, one would think is well along in his years. Why mention the fact that one must be born of water and born of the spirit to one who is so far removed from that 'first birth'?

Everyone is 'baptized' in the water in their mother's womb, if that is the meaning, and how pointless it would be that Jesus would mention it as a part of a very serious reply to a very serious question!

Note that Jesus used a very strange phrase to our ears in starting off these two statements - 'Verily, verily...' It may sound strange to our modern ears, but this phrase was commonly understood among the Jews in the First Century AD, as a profound oath. Jesus is, literally, saying 'Truthfully, truthfully....' when He begins His discussion in answer to Nicodemus' question 'What must I do...'

It is a question that many Christians have not yet come to an answer to at this late date in the church's history.

So Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to receive eternal life he must be (1) born of water, and (2) be born of the spirit.

The good news is that water baptism permits the recipient both regenerations at once.

Read my posts on that thread that discusses Paul's views on baptism as well.

- continued -

Now to get to that [b]penitent thief[/b] still hanging on his cross - there are three answers to why he may not have been required to be baptized in order to be with Jesus that day in Paradise, and I am certain that you already know the answer, but let me go through them with you: (I love to hear myself talk)

1. [b]Who said he wasn't baptized?[/b] Nowhere in the scriptures does it say he wasn't baptized. Remember the scriptures say that 'John baptized many' so how do we know that this penitent thief wasn't one of those who was baptized by John? We don't. And this penitent thief sure knew enough about Jesus to know (a) He was innocent of any charges, and (b) that Jesus had preached about 'His Kingdom.'

But that is not a very good answer, IMHO. So how about this:

2. [b]Jesus is the King.[/b] He is the Keeper of the Keys of Heaven and Hell. He is the very One who will be our Judge in the Next World. If He decides to let the [b]penitent thief[/b] into Heaven, who has not kept all of the rules that He Himself has laid down, well, that is totally up to Him, isn't it?

It is His Kingdom, after all. He can do as He wishes with His children. Still, although that answer is very, very good, there is an even better answer to your question. It is the one that you, of all folks, should have remembered:

3. [b]The penitent thief died under the Law, not under Christianity.[/b] Both of the thieves died well before the establishment of Christ's Church on Pentecost. Under the [b]Law[/b], the forgiveness of sins by God was all that was necessary. And Jesus, on His cross, forgave the [b]penitent thief[/b] his sins, and promised him a reward in Heaven!

See how easy the answer was, but you knew it all the time, you were just teasing me, knowing how much I like to rattle!

No one who reads all of the Scriptures on the necessity of baptism can possibly hope to escape that command by latching onto 'the once in a lifetime penitent thief, who died under the Law!'

Eric The(You[u]Were[/u]JokingWeren'tYou?)Hun