This situation actually happened to me several years ago. I was carrying and not drinking. I went to a fairly large party my friends throw every year. Friend's roomate had invited some guy that was acting like an asshole. He was definitely drunk. He then started laying into the hostess with cursing and threats. I got up and told him it was time to go. And he sized me up and decided he would listen to my suggestion.

If this had gone to blows here I am wearing a IWB holster with the only tension retention. Most fights end up on the ground if they continue for any length of time.

I attempt to avoid confrontation of any kind while carrying but in this situation I interjected myself into the argument because it was the right thing to do. Tactically it probably was not the right thing to do in hindsight.

I'm the world's biggest wuss when I'm CCWing.  You can step on my toe and I'll apologize.  

No point in buying the lawyer a house if something goes wrong.  

You did the right thing and confronted the guy since he was being a jerk. Just because you carry doesn't mean that you need to use it if you get into a altercation. Mano a mano sounded like what this situation needed. No threat on your life was indicated by the douche.

Hell, I don't even use the horn in my car anymore...  If something awful happens I want to be in no way, shape, or form considered the aggressor.  

When you're carrying, you really have to put away the White Knight mentality. Not saying you didn't do the right thing, but things can escalate quickly and you need to control that. Kind of fucked that you're the only person in the party who had balls to confront this dick though.

Hard to say.

The general advice about carrying is: "Now that you can carry a gun, don't put yourself in places that you wouldn't if you couldn't carry a gun."

So.....are you "naturally" the kind of person to step into situations of others being oppressed, even when you don't have a gun?

It's the kind of question you need to answer for yourself.
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("Sir, your voice is carrying. I do not think you want to be talking about this subject in public."––"kind" man intruding on McCoy's negotiations, (w,stte), "ST III: TSFS")

No intention of using it or even drawing it over some drunk jerk. My main concern would be retention in a fist fight.

Don't put yourself in those type of situations.

Everyone else was looking at this guy with big round glassed over eyes. I also happened to be right next to this guy while he is calling "Jane" a "fucking cunt". He sounded so angry I initially thought this is some sort of joke. I didn't do much thinking and immediately confronted him (verbally) and suggested it was time for him to leave. He weekly protested about not having money for a cab. I told him I don't care and said he needed to start walking.

In Texas, if you do anything to escalate a situation, even if you are in the right, and you wind up having to use deadly force, you're gonna spend a lot in lawyer's fees...

IMO you should not haved been carrying in that environment, ie around drunks and alcohol...

4073

This

When I carry I more or less have decided that stepping into anything other than a life threatening situation is out of the question.  Even the scenario posted in the OP can be construed by the aggressor to make you, the law abiding, non-drunk, gun carrying guy look bad.



YMMV.

ETA:  There was a time a while back where a guy told the douche bag:  "Hey, I'm carrying so please don't threaten me."

It worked for him, the douche bag stopped his stupidity immediately and left the area.

I've never done that but it worked for that man.

This is exactly why you either don't get in fights or make sure they don't continue for any length of time.

Avoid if at all possible, but if a fight is unavoidable you go fast and hard, don't go easy, especially if there's more than one guy.

I have no qualms about punting someone in the nuts or punching them in the throat if it means i don't have to get into a knock-down drag out, ESPECIALLY while carrying.





On a side note, drunks are fun to fight sometimes...



 

It's a sad state of affairs when one has to worry more about lawsuits and the prosecutors than the actual threat......I always wondered how many guys got hurt or killed because they hesitated thinking about all the "what ifs" when carrying.

It's a good thing a fight didn't occur. I've many times backed down because of carrying a gun and looked like a wuss. One very clear incident in my past was just like that. I've also not worn a gun simply because the setting may involve the possibility of non-lethal confrontations - like a house party. But most fights aren't worth the trouble and shouldn't have a gun thrown into the mix. OP did the right thing, glad it went smoothly.

It's the litigious nature of our society and the prosecutions of good, law-abiding citizens that has caused this response from legal gun carriers. We fear repercussions from the law and civil suits and therefore avoid any kind of confrontation short of a deadly threat.  I'm not so sure this always is the best thing, but have no data to back up my suspicion.

-JC

Let me throw the rock into the conversation, however.

You're there, you and everyone else have done nothing, and now the situation has progressed into one where it is serious harm against another and deadly force is the only alternative because words aren't going to work.

Harsh call and hopefully, none of us will ever be in that situation............but there does exist that possibility of things for none of us really know how things will turn out or which direction they are going.
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("WHEW! For a moment there, I thought we were going to have a hostage situation."––Tasha
"Klingons do not hide behind the helpless."––Worf, (w,stte), ST: TNG "Heart of Glory")

OP, how clean was the pool?
Did it have a diving board?

Fixed it for you.

Now, let's get this straight, Pilgrim, PICCOLO is the biggest wuss when he's packing.

About a dozen years back, I yanked the whole rig off and handed it to Neighbor Bob and told Bob that I wasn't going to need it and to hold it for me.

Then I told the mouthy bastard to meet me behind the dumpster.

It was like watching a freight train take a dirt road. I swear I couldn't have shot him in the back if I wanted to because he would have outrun the bullet..

I am too old for that shit now.

About a dozen years back, I yanked the whole rig off and handed it to Neighbor Bob and told Bob that I wasn't going to need it and to hold it for me.

Then I told the mouthy bastard to meet me behind the dumpster.

It was like watching a freight train take a dirt road. I swear I couldn't have shot him in the back if I wanted to because he would have outrun the bullet..

I am too old for that shit now.

Sounds like you need less shitty friends.

Quite the contrary. This group is mostly engineers and rather nerdy. I was totally shocked this happened with this crowd. The couple that owns the house had a roommate who invited this guy that was causing the problem.Are you telling me you have never been to a party where some asshole shows up through the friend of a friend?

Sometimes I think a can of Fox Labs 5.3 would be as useful as my CCW.  Maybe this time would've been one of them.

Quite a few cops have been the victim of that very thing.

Hand your weapon over to somebody sober you trust and tell that dude war's been declared.

If I'm not bleeding, I'm not shooting.

Too much can go wrong in court now.

I don't act any different when I'm carrying than when I'm not. I have a gun on me so often that it's just normal and I don't feel the need to act any differently.

Strongly disagree.

Other people's behavior or propensity for foolioshness does not dictate your decision to protect yourself.  Police are armed, and they interact with foolish people significantly more often than they interact with violent criminals.

The idea that alcohol creates problems is born of the same flawed logic that says having a gun present increases the level of danger.  It comes down to people, as individuals, and how they react to stimuli.  That could be road rage, domestic arguments, drugs (including alcohol) or other modifiers to mental status (mental or physical illness, for example), others behaving foolishly, etc.  Some individuals are easily excited.  Some people tend to keep their heads no matter what happens.  Most people are somewhere in the middle, but the bottom line is that it is the decisions of individuals that make the difference, not what inanimate objects happen to be present.

I reject the notion that there are places or situations where guns should be 100% forbidden.  If you are of sound mind and have a right to be in that location/situation, then you should probably have the right to be armed.  I'll give you that the state can say you shouldn't carry while intoxicated (given that it's a settled matter that they can enforce DWI laws).  Certainly, an owner of private property can enforce any regulations they like as a condition of patronage.  But laws that say you can't carry in a bar just because it's a bar?  That's just as foolish as saying you can't carry on a college campus simply because it's an educational institution.  I understand WHY people want to believe that such a law will offer benefit to the law-abiding, but the simple fact is that it does no such thing.


In the OP's example, he was out with some friends.  That they happened to be drinking makes no difference to his right to self defense.  But the question here is really about reaction to aggression while carrying.  It is my experience that the vast majority of people who carry don't ever really want to have to use their gun.  I think that the reminder of that tends to keep most armed people "polite," as the old saying goes.  I know it has that effect on me.  Not that I think I would be foolish/wild if Iwere unarmed, I think it's just that the reminder is there and so I'm more conscious of it.

My position is, I don't think carrying a gun changes your behavior much, if at all, but it certainly reminds you of why you should continue to be polite and respectful, even to people who don't deserve it.

Have something between a gun and bare hands, such as pepper spray, tazer, or baton.

Be nice... until it's time to not be nice and then be as mean and nasty as it takes up to and including deadly force.



There is very little need for hands on. If the man was asked to leave and continued bad behavior, call the cops. That's their job. The reason it's their job is they and the courts have taken from us the ability to properly escort people like this out of our house, unless they pose a deadly threat.



I agree that an intermediate level of force would be handy sometimes e.g. pepper spray.

This is why I don't use a tension only holster... Sorry, i'd rather have to pop a snap to get to my gun then take the risk of it coming out if I happen to trip and fall flat on my face.

That's what I call a "John Wayne Moment".  Well done, sir.





 

My friend and I differ on this point. He insisted on mechanical retention. Where upon, I ( with a Bianchi Askens Avenger and a 1911) proceeded to do several shoulder rolls across the lawn. An IWB grips them even better.



In a hand to hand, even a mechanical retention can be broken by one determined to get your gun. Good gun retention training is > mechanical latches, imo.



I would think it would be defensible in court to shoot a person trying to get your gun. If anyone has case law, I'd be interested.

This reminded me of a time I was at a party when I was in college.

Was home over the wk-end and there was party so myself and a few buddies went. Who should happen to show up with another guy everyone knew??? A very drunk and belligerent Brock Lesnar (of WWE and now UFC fame). He was in college then of course and a big time JUCO wrestler. Of course he was the biggest dude there so he starts looking around for the next biggest guy (who happened to be a buddy of mine who was with us at the party) and starts picking on him and just totally being a prick. My buddy wanted nothing to do with Lesnar and tried to ignore him but he pushed him to the ground and was slapping him around. Well, we had had just about enough of him and we're all gonna jump him (about 5 of us, and we probably still would have gotten stomped!) when the guy he was with realized what was about to happen and grabbed Lesnar and got him to leave our buddy alone.

Yeah, I know, cool story bro!

Did meet him again some time later when he was sober and he actually seemed like a half decent guy.

Yeah, but in the back of your mind were you thinking "I'll kill you"?

This is why I always carry a "less lethal" option in addition to my ccw piece. Not all situation warrant the use of a gun. I usually have a small can of Sabre pepper spray in my left front pocket. The idea is to the able to deploy the spray while keeping my right hand free just in case I still need to go for the gun.

In a situation like that I probably would have let him fight me and hoped the crowd would have helped. No way I would shoot a beligerent drunk at a party unless I was about to go unconscious.

I wonder if an intervention would work? Instead of one guy confronting a jerk, wouldn't 3 or 4 guys asking the guy to leave work better?  It's less tempting to engage 3 or 4 guys than only one guy.

It is one thing to g looking for trouble, it is another when you justifiably and/or reasonably assert your rights or act on behalf of another lawful person (ie asking a guy to leave on behalf of a property owner).

But most people don't give me trouble, so I cannot relate to how you smaller guys get treated.

Deep wisdom here.

In Florida, that would get you an 'automatic' three year minimum/mandatory stay in the butt humpers motel.

Chris

Yeah yeah yeah, but lets try being practical.  It's pretty obvious that there is a much greater chance that you'll end up in a confrontation in a bar than just about anywhere else.  So don't put yourself in a position where you're armed in that environment.  If you're that concerned about your safety, stay armed but out of the bar.  Otherwise, leave your piece in the car.

Additionally, good luck with that jury, having shot someone while you're hanging out at the bar with your buddies.  Not saying it's right, just saying what it is.

OP - congratulations on being a hero and "manning up" to stand up for some waitress who hears the same shit every weekend evenin , and unecessarily putting yourself in a position where you have an even greater chance of ending up in a confontation while armed.  


ETA: OP, sorry for being pretty harsh.  Your intentions were clearly spot on.  But I think carrying is a pretty big responsibility, can't fuck around with it.

WTF Did you even read my orginal post? I wasn't at a bar. Reading fail.

Get some weapons retention training.

Your other big concern should be a jury believing that you escalated the fight and therefore lost your right to self-defense.  

I have some similar thoughts. I wonder sometimes, if avoiding confrontation to the extreme might actually encourage a would-be assailant to become more aggressive. There also seems to be a fine line between displaying a firearm in the hope of ending a confrontation and "brandishing".

All this legalese bullshit makes me wonder, if accosted on the street by an unknown assailant and "brandishing" didn't work, how many would consider just capping his ass and if no witnesses, let the police earn their pay and figure it out.
Chances are good that the perp has a mile-long rap sheet and prior convictions. "Just a bad drug deal gone down"  Wouldn't work for me, though. My conscience would eat me alive.

I apologize for hijacking this thread. My comments should probably be another thread.

This is one of the reasons I carry with a retention holster.  I'd have interjected myself into the "discussion" as well.  If he was as drunk as you suggest, there's no reason you couldn't have laid him out with a couple well-aimed punches.