1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C, two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 A.D. lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Qur'an.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. [See Fatah Charter/Constitution]

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990; there were 97 directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

LOL Dave....

But plenty of these facts are glossed over.

Real Americans shouldn't care about Arabs or Israelis.
The continuation of the "Arab/Israeli" conflict is cause by one thing only.  United Stated $$$.  
Why the hell do we give both sides billions a year anyways, all we EVER get in return is grief.

Once we stop rewarding idiots they will probably decide they would rather eat than continue with some ancient conflict.  If not then I guess they can just starve.

Thats some facts.

This most recent conflict between Jews and Arabs has been raging since the early 20th century, after Arab riots and the muerders of hundreds of Jews after incited violence, long before the US supplied aid to the Jews, and long before there was an Israel.  That's the truth, but it tends to stand in the way of other peoples' "facts."

God Bless Texas

The truth is like a bad penny, it just keeps popping up Dave.

I couldnt care less what the Israelis have "tried" to do.  IT IS INCONSEQUENTIAL

The fact is we pour billions in to their country in FREE money.  Then we turn around and do the same for the Palestinians.

So I ask you Dave,  Why should anyone here really care about either side?  And if you care so much why don't you pick a side and move there?  Show some courage for your convictions.

WTF kind of nonsense is this?  Unless you happen to be in the area between Mecca and Jerusalem, you litterally cannot face one without facing the other.  On a global scale, they're pretty close, you know.



The Jordianian bit (if true, though I see no real reason to doubt it) is despicable--but while Israel may not desecrate, they most certainly do restrict access to holy sites!  Aside from the past, have you heard the screams from the Vatican over the last few weeks as access has been denied to christian holy sites?

As for some of your quotes on the history of the region, why not check out the entry on the [url=http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/palestin_history.asp]History of Palestine over on Encyclopedia.com[/url]

Britannica.com seems to have a better one, at least judging by the index, but you have to pay to read it--in any case, I think this one at least casts doubts on some of your assertions.

HEY,  damnit,  I thought I killed this thread?

[red]Die thread die![/red]

[size=2][center][u][b]World Religions[/b][/u][/center][/size=2]

[img]http://noreno.no-ip.com:800/world_religion.png[/img]

[size=2][center][u][b]World God-Based Religions(Buddhism/Confucianism/Taoism Omitted)[/b][/u][/center][/size=2]

[img]http://noreno.no-ip.com:800/world_god.png[/img]

Not to take you too much to task, you've been sincere, but the men of the USS Liberty found out different.

cc48510, why is the former Soviet Union blue? Probably more atheist than Christians in that place.

The Christinas either fled or are dead.

Granted, I don't know of the exact reason for the attack of the USS Liberty by Israeli warplanes...However Israel was in war mode (They were under attack themselves)...Could it not have been "Mistaken Idenity" ???

I truly ask this because I don't know!!!

To me it is obvious as to why one would support Israel in this conflict.  

#1,  Israel pinpoints known terrorists.  First it asks the PLO for the terrorist, then when the PLO pleads no knoweledge then the IDF goes and gets em or kills them.  Palistinians?  They blow up pizza parlors full of teenagers, markets, using children and women, and ambulances as shields.  

#2,  In Israel, if your Jewish, they invite you to move to their country regardless if your Russian, American, Saudi, Morrocan, Indian etc.  If your an Arab Palistinian, you are denied medical care, the ability to be trained to do labor work in countries such as Egypt, Syria and must live in a refugee camp. Both of these arab countries which are for the most part Muslim, will not allow intigration of Palistinians, and the excuse is that the Palistinians will adversly affect their economies.  There have been several news reports in the last 6 months on this fact.  

#3  Israel has agreed to every peace accord and the Palastinians have rejected every peace accord.  

#4 Who has kept his word better?  Sharon or Arafat?

So lets see, one country wishes to be a democracy of freedom loving people, the other so narrow minded they kill people for being gay, the Israellies pin point attack and the Palistinians kill indiscriminantly, the Israellies want peace, the Palistinians and muslims barily recognise the only super power in their region.  

I was reading recently the capabilities of Israel, the can foot 13 divisions of troops, they have the ability to fly 3000+ sorties a day, have enough supplies to run an all out full scale war for three years without buying any more supplies from this day foreward, their F-16s and F-15s are more upgraded than ours.  If they wanted the west bank or any other piece of property in the middle east I imagine it would take 36 hours.  I do believe they just want peace, because the have only deployed maybe 1-2% of their army into this middle east crises.  

I respect anyone's right to their opinion, but I have kept up with this deal for several years now and it is unbelievable the number of unethical things the Palistinians have done pulling in an effort to pull Israels strings.  

Yesterday, the Palistinians made an attempt to assasinate Colin Powel using a Red Crescent ambulance packed with explosives, its a good thing the IDF thwarted this attempt just 2 hours before the motor cade made its way down the highway.  

It involved Israel attacking an unarmed U.S. Navy ship - for hours.

I will never forgive the Israeli's and never forget.

Something else I just thought of, how come the Israellies don't get photographed parading through the street with dead Palistinians up on sticks the way the Palistinians do with Israellies.  Sort of reminds me of Somolia, same mentality.  

CC48510 your map doth lie! Where did you invent the idea that America is Christian? The last census available was in 1990, and then only 40% were believers in the Christian faith. More have fallen away, and the moral climate of the country is crumbling. We are the Godless right wing. America became Pagan about 1974.

I've been there SA! The Church is really doing well there! Russian missionaries are coming here to preach to us!

American Indians were in North America for at least 15,000 years.  Do they have a right to this land?  If your name ain't on it, you don't own it.

The warplanes possibly, the gunboats that circled the Liberty and machine gunned the survivors in life rafts for an additonal 17 mins. or so. Not Likely.

But don't take my word for it.

[url]http://www.ussliberty.org/[/url]

Everyone makes mistakes. American soldies did HORRIBLE things in Vietnam. From rape, illegal executions to carpet bombing. Hell, we massacred nearly 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima alone. Would we DARE do that in todays world?Who is without sin, cast the first stone.

I just wish Israel would do what should have been done a long time ago. Move in and wipe them out, without U.S. support is necessary. Its their war, let them deal with it. The big fish eats the little fish, sometimes is just that easy.

Pro

Everybody F's up in war.

The US has accidently bombed British Troops before and the British the same.

The US artied and bombed US troops more times than I care to count. Friendly fire is simply a fact of life. The US has accidently decimated civilians in horrible ways (Dredsen, etc...)

How is that we can hold other nations to a higher standard than ourselves. How many supposed "civilians" were killed in Vietnam. How many were engaging US troops. How many VC kids rushed US troops with Hand Grenades and Explosives.

Y'all have no problem with the killing of a VC Child holding a Hand Grenade and rushing US Soldiers in Vietnam. But, at the same time you condemn Israel for shooting children strapped with explosives rushing at them. Seems hipocritical to me.

BTW, my information on what countries are what religions comes from the 1999 Rand McNally World Factbook. According to them --

USA:

Protestant (56%)
Roman Catholic (28%)
Jewish (2%)

Russia:

Russian Orthodox (??)
Muslim (??)

I based Russia on the order of Religions. I.E. Russian Orthodox was listed first indicating the highest percentage. BTW, for those who don't know Russian/Eastern Orthodox is a branch of Christianity that broke fromt he Catholic church 1,000 years ago over the use of Icons. The Orthodox were excommunicated by the Pope. Then, when the next crusade occured Belgrade (Then a Major City in the Orthodox Balkans) was burned to the ground by Crusaders on their way to the Middle East.

No.  That's not fact.  That's poorly expressed, generally ignorant, opinion.

Cry me a river Norm,  and then explain why the US should pay to feed their kids because they are too busy killing each other?

It's awful easy to register dissent about my "ignorant" opinion, but its quite another thing to articulate an argument against it.

I say it's fact,
You say it's not fact,
Hmmmm, must make it religion.

cc48510,  The majority of people living on Bali and Lombok Islands are Animists...  not Muslim.  The maps are wrong in some other areas as well, but I think that I'll give it a rest thank you.
W

[b]Stormbringer[/b], thanks for the 20 facts on Israel.

Except for the one on having to turn your back on Jerusalem to pray to Mecca, which would actually depend solely upon the location in which one was praying towards Mecca, the list is very accurate.

Now, regarding the subject of the [b]USS Liberty[/b], which is one I usually avoid like a Biblical plague....

[size=3]If you really, really think that the Israelis attack on the USS Liberty was without a doubt intentional, then all of your anger at this attack should more appropriately directed at the United States' political and military leadership![/size=3]

You must think that Israel took a calculated risk at attacking a US warship on the high seas, and then, that [b]our[/b] government and military (1) stopped any attempts to come to the ship's rescue, (2) failed to retaliate against this wanton attack on its ship and men, and (3) neglected to ever bring Israel to task over the deliberate murder of 34 Naval personnel and the wounding of 171 others.

Wow, the United States sure lacked anyone of any [u]character[/u] whatsoever in the Johnson Administration or in the United States Navy!

I can understand that some would believe that the Johnson Administration was bereft of any principals, but were there [b]no heroes at all in the United States Navy[/b] at this time?

None? No one? Were they all covering their assses and heading for the tall grass on this one?

What a bunch of chicken sh|t you must think these Naval officers to have been!

As for myself, I am firmly convinced it was simply a blunder upon the part of Israel, done in the fog of war.

Not simply because I don't want to believe that Israel was capable of it, but because I equally don't want to believe that the United States, and especially the US Navy, was capable of sniveling acquiescence in allowing the deed to go unpunished!

What value would [b]you[/b] place on the lives of 34 sailors if they were under [b]your[/b] command?

Well, if the USS Liberty attack wasn't simply an accident, then I think we can compute what the lives of those seamen were worth:

Keeping Johnson and the DEMOS popular with American Jews, and the Naval officers in their cushy jobs with retirement at full pay full speed ahead!

Eric The(And[u]That[/u]IsUnacceptableToMe!)Hun[>]:)]

The truth:

Israel has gladly given up land in exchange for peace in the past to those who were sincere about peace.  Egypt springs to mind, for those who don't remember their history.

Israel has tried to live in peace with the "Palestinians," oddly enough the same name that applied to Jews that lived in that region before the UN took over control of the area from the British, even offering them 95% of the lands they wanted in order to found a Palestinian State and bring peace.  But instead of accepting the offer, Arafat decided to incite this latest intafada.  And look how many of his people it has gotten killed!  Yet this incited violence is Israel's fault, depending upon who you ask!  How absurd!

How many times in the second half of the 20th Century did we hear Muslim nations like Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and others state that their goal was the complete obliteration of the nation of Israel off of the face of the Earth?

Yet the Palestinians are the ones saying they will not be wiped off the face of the Earth in the Second Holocaust.  Isn't that laughable?

God Bless Texas