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User Panel
User Panel
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Posted: 9/3/2010 3:20:18 PM EDT
[#1]
The one the contributes the most to the NRA!
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:03:01 PM EDT
[#2]
by "high-end" do you mean Tier-1
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:03:08 PM EDT
[#3]
The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why.
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:09:41 PM EDT
[#4]
Two different paths to successs.
BravoCompany can move volume, and sell accessories better along with rifles (Gunfighter charging handles, MagPul and TROY stuff, similar items). They've invested a bit more in the brand name as a reliable-but-who-cares-if-it's-pretty image, and done very, very well with that. Spike's is doing a fantastic job of putting out solid rifles at a price point that humiliates lesser rifles (priced higher), and they have a lot more flexibility and bandwidth in their product line of firearms - the Havoc, conversion kits, and custom barrels. From a pure business perspective, BCM's advertising is paying off, and people are noticing how successful groups like EAG have been with their T&E stuff, which has allowed them to expand their product line (pretty much now doing everything that CMMG once did in the barrel department, but better). Talk crap about Spike's all you want, but three months into the buying frenzy, those were the only lowers available. Say what you will, nobody rides gold dealers for asking what the market will bear. I've got a rifle that has BCM and ST equipment on it, and recommend the BCM and ST-LE models to my friends looking to pick up civilian AR's. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:12:37 PM EDT
[#5]
This really goes for any company, but it'll be whoever offers the best combination of price, service, quality, availability –– and advertises themselves well to the right market.
May they all prosper.  And hire me for design work. 
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:17:34 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. Oh snap! |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:18:34 PM EDT
[#7]
It seems that BCM is spending a ton of money on all of the print advertising they're doing, the small full color mini catalogs that they send with each order, and the free hats. On top of that they've had to drop prices to keep in line with the market. I like BCM's model because they are basically a one-stop-shop for everything AR-related minus ammo. Bravo rarely has the best prices on anything but you can count on your order being correct and getting top quality products.
Spikes seems to be more focused on getting a quality AR in the hands of everyone who wants one. You do that by offering a top quality product at a bargain price (M4LE under $800 shipped & ready to rock). Tom also offers, arguably, the best CS and even goes out of his way to help board members (I recall him sending a DD Lite part to someone who broke theirs, didn't buy the rail from Spikes, and Tom didn't even ask for postage). I also think it was a great move for Spikes to team up with AIM and offer components (uppers & stripped lowers) at an even greater discount plus free shipping. This gets Spikes even greater exposure while getting product in customers' hands. Bottom line: Bravo appears to be more profitable since they sell such a wide variety of products but, without knowing either firm's numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if Spike's was right there. Personally I'd go with a model closer to that of Spikes. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:20:06 PM EDT
[#8]
Spikes is a brand I would recomend to someone getting into the game. I like how they have been very in touch with what people want and are willing to do custom stuff. It seems like every article on training that I read has someone using a BCM in a course or the instructors using one as their loner/demo/beater gun. That says alot.
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:21:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Spikes is one of the fastest growing and high end? I'm not sure I'm inclined to jump to that conclusion.
So which business model is best?
From everything I've seen bcm is committed to putting out quality products and treating their customers well. For me that is a long term recipe for success. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:23:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Spikes is one of the fastest growing and high end? I'm not sure I'm inclined to jump to that conclusion. So which business model is best? From everything I've seen bcm is committed to putting out quality products and treating their customers well. For me that is a long term recipe for success. exactly, AR15.com is not the center of the universe when it comes to purchasing trends. the average joe blow looking for a black rifle has never heard of Spikes. that doesn't mean their quality is lacking, but they aren't exactly a game changer in their present state. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 4:27:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Spikes is one of the fastest growing and high end? I'm not sure I'm inclined to jump to that conclusion. So which business model is best?
From everything I've seen bcm is committed to putting out quality products and treating their customers well. For me that is a long term recipe for success. pretty much Spikes may have a cool logo but they have failed to be my on my short list of parts I look at when I am building an Ar-15 , So in 1 respect they have either failed somewhere in marketing or I am not the target market , Multiple ars and plenty of money to buy what i want in an AR |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 5:36:29 PM EDT
[#12]
I'll stick to magpul when it comes to the accessories. +1 for spikes. BCM is "tier-1" as well though.
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Posted: 9/3/2010 6:11:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Spikes is one of the fastest growing and high end? I'm not sure I'm inclined to jump to that conclusion. So which business model is best?
From everything I've seen bcm is committed to putting out quality products and treating their customers well. For me that is a long term recipe for success. What, in your opinion, keeps Spikes from being high end? |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 6:30:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. Oh snap! Well played sir EDIT: LMAO Spikes is High End now? |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 6:32:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Like Anvil Arms ..oh..wait
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Posted: 9/3/2010 6:32:57 PM EDT
[#16]
spikes is high end now?
things must have really changed since i was into building AR's |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 6:58:44 PM EDT
[#17]
The main thing for AR companies right now is simply to survive.
The market is in the tank, and it doesn't look like it will be coming out of it any time soon. So the main thing they need to do is survive til things improve.... |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 8:03:05 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
The main thing for AR companies right now is simply to survive. The market is in the tank, and it doesn't look like it will be coming out of it any time soon. So the main thing they need to do is survive til things improve.... Print ads are a waste of money in this decade. It's the internet presence that is driving them (Bravo). They need to save their print money. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 8:12:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Is Spike's really "high end?" I thought they were a cool hobby store with a reputation for selling the neat stuff that recreational shooters like.
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Posted: 9/3/2010 8:48:27 PM EDT
[#20]
Spike's has some seriously innovative products that are exceptionally well-made, and badazzar seems like he'd break his spine sooner than have a dissatisfied customer.
I bought a Spike's .22 conversion unit because of its perks. After trying it, my roommate bought one. After seeing my unit, a buddy of mine bought a 9mm upper receiver and buffer from them.....and even after somehow managing to mess up the buffer himself (solvents eat rubber, surprise!), Spike's made it good. I've gotten some of the most personalized service EVER out of Spike's. They make slightly more "niche" products, but make them damn well, and for a price you can't really beat. BCM makes more mainline products, but don't seem like they'll do customized one-offs quite so readily as will Spike's. Different markets, different size companies, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Spikes and BCM are relatively equally as profitable, in proportion to their relative sizes. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 8:51:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. This. Election night price hikes beyond reason mean I will not be doing business with you. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 8:53:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
The main thing for AR companies right now is simply to survive. The market is in the tank, and it doesn't look like it will be coming out of it any time soon. So the main thing they need to do is survive til things improve.... I just wish the ammo market would crash or at least dive too. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 8:55:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The main thing for AR companies right now is simply to survive. The market is in the tank, and it doesn't look like it will be coming out of it any time soon. So the main thing they need to do is survive til things improve.... I just wish the ammo market would crash or at least dive too. Umm.......it is.......... |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 8:57:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
, AR15.com is not the center of the universe when it comes to purchasing trends. Its pretty close The flavors of the month can make or break a company. How many post or threads have sent backlashes to companies, or had them change policy? yes maybe avg joe hasn't heard about spikes, but his friend (arfcom member) who he queried about his purchase has. BCM will fall out of favor as well as spikes, its happened with nearly every company on this board, except maybe larue but they give enough shit away that they will always be tier 1 |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 8:58:32 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The main thing for AR companies right now is simply to survive. The market is in the tank, and it doesn't look like it will be coming out of it any time soon. So the main thing they need to do is survive til things improve.... I just wish the ammo market would crash or at least dive too. Umm.......it is.......... Must not be seeing it, I remeber $115+Shipping per 1000 of Wolf or Barnaul for most of the Bush administration, and the brass was not that much worse. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 8:58:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The main thing for AR companies right now is simply to survive. The market is in the tank, and it doesn't look like it will be coming out of it any time soon. So the main thing they need to do is survive til things improve.... Print ads are a waste of money in this decade. It's the internet presence that is driving them (Bravo). They need to save their print money. Yeah..........if only it were so. My company has its own TV network, is the largest publisher of outdoors magazines in the country and has a wide variety of websites. What you say is simply not true. I've seen a number of companies try do go 'all web' and then come back saying it didn't work. The web is a great tool, but it is only one tool. Print still performs remarkably well. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:02:07 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: , AR15.com is not the center of the universe when it comes to purchasing trends. Its pretty close The flavors of the month can make or break a company. How many post or threads have sent backlashes to companies, or had them change policy? yes maybe avg joe hasn't heard about spikes, but his friend (arfcom member) who he queried about his purchase has. BCM will fall out of favor as well as spikes, its happened with nearly every company on this board, except maybe larue but they give enough shit away that they will always be tier 1 |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:05:24 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why.  |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:08:01 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Undoubtedly, Spikes Tactical and BCM are two of the fastest growing high-end AR manufacturers but it seems that they have very different business strategies. Spike's website does not sell many accessories and I rarely see an advertisement for them. BCM, on the other hand, offers tons of accessories and runs big full-color multi-page ads in every gun magazine known to man. So which business model is best? Which company do you think will grow most in profitability? You missed part of BCM's strategy - give guns to well known trainers to test for many tens of thousands of rounds and come out looking good. Thus they have every expert on ar15.com and the site that shall not be named plugging for them. Quoted: BCM will fall out of favor as well as spikes, its happened with nearly every company on this board, except maybe larue but they give enough shit away that they will always be tier 1 Disagree with you here on BCM falling out of favor. The only high quality maker that has fallen out of favor is LMT because of quality issues, but BCM has a much more active presence on the boards and the ownership seems committed to maintaining quality. I think they'll be at the top for years to come. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:10:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. QFT Id rather buy from anyone other than Spikes for hat very reason. I would have respect for them if they would have just asid that they raised due to upcoming panic buying. But they didnt and tried to weasel their way out.  
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:10:13 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Quoted: The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. http://i53.tinypic.com/25u1f28.gif hey, it's the truth. you should have seen the piss and vinegar around here on election night. cheaper than dirt is still feeling the wrath. apparently spike's has somehow redeemed themselves. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:11:26 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. http://i53.tinypic.com/25u1f28.gif  |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:12:29 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. http://i53.tinypic.com/25u1f28.gif hey, it's the truth. you should have seen the piss and vinegar around here on election night. cheaper than dirt is still feeling the wrath. apparently spike's has somehow redeemed themselves. CTD publishing fake list prices is what cemented their place in the hall of fail. I was mainly facepalming your "bullshit reasons as to why" statement because anyone with Econ 101 sees it clear as day. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:17:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. http://i53.tinypic.com/25u1f28.gif hey, it's the truth. you should have seen the piss and vinegar around here on election night. cheaper than dirt is still feeling the wrath. apparently spike's has somehow redeemed themselves. CTD publishing fake list prices is what cemented their place in the hall of fail. I was mainly facepalming your "bullshit reasons as to why" statement because anyone with Econ 101 sees it clear as day. yeah, it's clear as day that they wanted to make a quick buck off the panic buying going on. good for them. i choose to support companies who kept their prices the same even though demand went up. last time i checked obama was inaugurated Jan 2009, so how do you even know what happened here election night? ETA - Here is their BS in all its steamy, smelly glory the price gouger thread. thought you might like it for entertainment purposes. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:25:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Meanwhile out here in Average Joe consumer land, we still can't find a self-contained 9mm conversion upper with AR magwell compatible mags for under $500. Just sayin' the high enders might want to endear themselves to current AR owners looking to accessorize/expand functionality of their current rifle, rather than trying to sell new rifles to a saturated market. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:27:00 PM EDT
[#36]
Which one makes people mad enough to cut up their receiver with a bandsaw?
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:31:11 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: It seems that BCM is spending a ton of money on all of the print advertising they're doing, the small full color mini catalogs that they send with each order, and the free hats. On top of that they've had to drop prices to keep in line with the market. I like BCM's model because they are basically a one-stop-shop for everything AR-related minus ammo. Bravo rarely has the best prices on anything but you can count on your order being correct and getting top quality products. Spikes seems to be more focused on getting a quality AR in the hands of everyone who wants one. You do that by offering a top quality product at a bargain price (M4LE under $800 shipped & ready to rock). Tom also offers, arguably, the best CS and even goes out of his way to help board members (I recall him sending a DD Lite part to someone who broke theirs, didn't buy the rail from Spikes, and Tom didn't even ask for postage). I also think it was a great move for Spikes to team up with AIM and offer components (uppers & stripped lowers) at an even greater discount plus free shipping. This gets Spikes even greater exposure while getting product in customers' hands. Bottom line: Bravo appears to be more profitable since they sell such a wide variety of products but, without knowing either firm's numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if Spike's was right there. Personally I'd go with a model closer to that of Spikes. I'll vouch for that. Spike's offers good guns at a good price with the best CS around. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:39:39 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. http://i53.tinypic.com/25u1f28.gif hey, it's the truth. you should have seen the piss and vinegar around here on election night. cheaper than dirt is still feeling the wrath. apparently spike's has somehow redeemed themselves. CTD publishing fake list prices is what cemented their place in the hall of fail. I was mainly facepalming your "bullshit reasons as to why" statement because anyone with Econ 101 sees it clear as day. yeah, it's clear as day that they wanted to make a quick buck off the panic buying going on. good for them. i choose to support companies who kept their prices the same even though demand went up. last time i checked obama was inaugurated Jan 2009, so how do you even know what happened here election night? You know you can read without an account, right? "i choose to support companies who kept their prices the same even though demand went up." - This is silly. Those companies sell out of product in literally minutes and then what happens? Dozens of those products end up on the EE at the real market price, and they sell. So who would you rather get the extra profit, your favorite AR company, or Frank the Flipper? I choose to respect AR companies and not treat them like they are charities gone rogue. Their normal selling price is just the market price, and you people start foaming at the mouth when the market price goes up quickly and they follow, as if they are conspiring to deprive you of your hardware. I recommend a preemptive flip out over the normal prices because $100 profit for an upper is far too high when they could get by on a $50 profit. BCM wrote in their Industry section why they don't raise prices. He was very eloquent, but my interpretation was (and this is my artistic version; they did not say this) - "We forgo the profits and sell out quick because you guys go full retard". That is either pathetic or sad, I can't decide which. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:53:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. http://i53.tinypic.com/25u1f28.gif hey, it's the truth. you should have seen the piss and vinegar around here on election night. cheaper than dirt is still feeling the wrath. apparently spike's has somehow redeemed themselves. CTD publishing fake list prices is what cemented their place in the hall of fail. I was mainly facepalming your "bullshit reasons as to why" statement because anyone with Econ 101 sees it clear as day. yeah, it's clear as day that they wanted to make a quick buck off the panic buying going on. good for them. i choose to support companies who kept their prices the same even though demand went up. last time i checked obama was inaugurated Jan 2009, so how do you even know what happened here election night? You know you can read without an account, right? "i choose to support companies who kept their prices the same even though demand went up." - This is silly. Those companies sell out of product in literally minutes and then what happens? Dozens of those products end up on the EE at the real market price, and they sell. So who would you rather get the extra profit, your favorite AR company, or Frank the Flipper? I choose to respect AR companies and not treat them like they are charities gone rogue. Their normal selling price is just the market price, and you people start foaming at the mouth when the market price goes up quickly and they follow, as if they are conspiring to deprive you of your hardware. I recommend a preemptive flip out over the normal prices because $100 profit for an upper is far too high when they could get by on a $50 profit. BCM wrote in their Industry section why they don't raise prices. He was very eloquent, but my interpretation was (and this is my artistic version; they did not say this) - "We forgo the profits and sell out quick because you guys go full retard". That is either pathetic or sad, I can't decide which.  I didn't panic buy lowers, so my money wasn't going to anybody. I just find it hilarious how this board went from wanting to draw and quarter the owner of Spikes to thinking his stuff is the choice of Dev Group.
Like I said, Spikes is free to set their prices how they want. Myself and other members of this board are also free to remind people how they treat their customers when the chips are down. When I went back home to Wisconsin this July I went to a HTF shoot. Guess who donated a bunch of gunfighter charging handles, extractor upgrade kits, hats, and shirts to the people who attended? That's the kind of company I choose to deal with. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:56:26 PM EDT
[#40]
i think the best strategy for both companies would be to send me a large number of their finest products, for testing purposes.
make it so |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 9:59:09 PM EDT
[#41]
I think of Knights Armament or Noveske when I think of "high end." Although they make good stuff, to me spikes is just another ho-hum AR company. Also, I think BCM is a far better company to buy from than spikes. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 10:02:10 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Here are the words of a "respectful" AR company "If all the fucking Idiots didnt go crazy and panic we wouldnt have this problem retard." I didn't panic buy lowers, so my money wasn't going to anybody. I just find it hilarious how this board went from wanting to draw and quarter the owner of Spikes to thinking his stuff is the choice of Dev Group. Like I said, Spikes is free to set their prices how they want. Myself and other members of this board are also free to remind people how they treat their customers when the chips are down. When I went back home to Wisconsin this July I went to a HTF shoot. Guess who donated a bunch of gunfighter charging handles, extractor upgrade kits, hats, and shirts to the people who attended? That's the kind of company I choose to deal with.  |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 10:11:48 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Quoted: Here are the words of a "respectful" AR company "If all the fucking Idiots didnt go crazy and panic we wouldnt have this problem retard." I didn't panic buy lowers, so my money wasn't going to anybody. I just find it hilarious how this board went from wanting to draw and quarter the owner of Spikes to thinking his stuff is the choice of Dev Group. Like I said, Spikes is free to set their prices how they want. Myself and other members of this board are also free to remind people how they treat their customers when the chips are down. When I went back home to Wisconsin this July I went to a HTF shoot. Guess who donated a bunch of gunfighter charging handles, extractor upgrade kits, hats, and shirts to the people who attended? That's the kind of company I choose to deal with. I'm glad I could amuse you. I thought this day was ruined seeing as Earl didn't do shit, so all my preps at the base were for nothing. Thank God I accomplished something productive. Have fun with your term as the Spike's Fan Club president |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 10:15:51 PM EDT
[#44]
I think BCM does enough inventory turns on accessories and the like that the ARs they build can track with ups and downs of the market without putting a lot of pressure on the business to survive.
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Posted: 9/3/2010 10:17:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Damn. Some people in this thread sound.....bitter. About economics.
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Posted: 9/3/2010 10:19:46 PM EDT
[#46]
how is spikes not high end? They may not be top tier, but they are very good. The specs dont lie. They use the best steel for their barrels (for practical purposes, its milspec), CL, they use bcg created by one of the best bcg makers(i forget who but they are very well respected), The specs are identical to colt with the exception of one barrel test IIRC.
Again not saying they are top of the line shit, but thier guns are very well made and backed by great CS. They took stags position for "best bang for your buck" ar15 variant overnight. Only problem is not many people have heard of them off the internet. BCM just makes great product. Looking there for my recce build but not set on a barrel yet .
For the economic shit, spikes did not price gouge. Supply and demand, looks like their high prices kept their inventory in stock longer than most people. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay. Apperently the lowers were worth $180/$190 or whatever they were going for. |
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Posted: 9/3/2010 10:40:21 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
The main thing for AR companies right now is simply to survive. The market is in the tank, and it doesn't look like it will be coming out of it any time soon. So the main thing they need to do is survive til things improve.... If I were an AR manufacturer selling complete firearms, I don't think any of my products would come without a gas piston setup of some kind or another and the prices would be within $150 of an equivalent DI model that a competitor offers. With so mane companies essentially making the same gun, you have to set yourself apart. Sure come companies are offering a $1000 GP AR, but the market simply doesn't support that kind of pricing for ANY production AR anymore. |
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Posted: 9/4/2010 6:59:48 AM EDT
[#48]
Quick answer. Buy from both.
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Posted: 9/4/2010 7:07:00 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. zing!! |
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Posted: 9/4/2010 7:35:45 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
The one that doesn't arbitrarily raise prices after an election and give bullshit excuses as to why. |
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