I watched an interesting NOVA show on PBS tonight about the libel trial in England of an American author of a book called "[i]Denying The Holocaust[/i]." The plaintiff was a man named David Irving, a British historian and Nazi apologist.

Transcript of the show: [url]www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2711holocaust.html[/url]

Irving seems to be a big fan of Hitler, and found many ways to polish up his image.

Saw it awhile ago, good show.

As most people know the problem is this.

The Nazis were not entirely evil. They did many GOOD things. Stating otherwise opens the door for you to be discredited by facts. This leaves the actual facts susceptible to doubt.

But, the Nazis also weren't entirely good either. And the did a LOT of f*cked up shit. I hope I don't really have to run down the list. And more importantly, there are just way too many people who saw and know the truth.

Of course it all comes down to agenda. If you have a anti Nazi agenda you will portray everything they ever did as evil or motivated by evil. Even when it is not true. And if you have a pro Nazi agenda, you will simply believe everything is a jewish lie. When cornered with facts you will seek to justify the actions. Of course neither view is completely true or accurate. Truth has no agendas.

... "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the show?"

Back in the day when I used to watch NOVA, it was a SCIENCE program. Now I see it has been perverted into nothing but another political soapbox of the left.

Yes, they got all the tattooists off of welfare.  And who can forget the massive urban renewal of Dresden that they initiated?  [rolleyes]

In addition took Germany out of one of the worst global depressions in the world in the 1930s, long before we solved our less severe depression.

Built the Autobahn which we based our Interstate Highway system on.

Invaded and occupied France. Of course some say this isn't a good thing.

Developed the first semi auto double action handgun. The P38.

Developed the FIRST assault rifle the STG44-45. Without nazis, there would be no AR15.

Developed the first jet engine fighters.

Developed the first intercontinental missle. Without nazis, no moon landing in 1969.

But the point is, anyones suggestion that they were 100% evil is as stupid as anyone who suggests they were 100% innocent. Only those with agenda would do so.

I don't know Steyr, can accomplishments in the science and engineering of war and commerce be charted as far as good and evil? The V-1 rocket wasn't built for good purposes, nor was the Me 262. They were built to bring about world domination by fascists. No one can downplay the engineering accomplishments of the Germans during WWII, but to then say that, "see, the Nazis did a lot of good as well as evil" is a bit of a stretch in my book.

But anyone who suggests, as Irving did, that those big rooms at Auschwitz were just for delousing prisoners and fumigating corpses should be ridiculed harshly and loudly.

Irving didn't actually deny the Holcaust(tm), he merely tries to set some facts straight.

His books, or some of them, alternating, can be downloaded at for free at [url]http://www.fpp.co.uk[/url]

That's one way to look at it, I suppose. Another way would be to say that Irving sought out every way he could to downplay the enormous evil that the Nazis did under the aegis of "The Final Solution to the Jewish Question."

Hitler became chancellor in 1933.  The first section of the autobahn opened in 1935 and the project predates the Nazi era.  For that matter, the Pennsylvania Turnpike (America's first superhighway) began studies and construction at about the same time as the autobbahn and wasn't patterned after it.  Whether superhighways are good or bad, the Nazis didn't invent them.  Anything the Nazis may have done that was good was purely accidental as they went about implementing their loathsome policies.

The fact that ANYONE would even doubt the evil of the Nazi party is amazing.

They not only killed Jews, but also political prisoners, homosexuals, rebels, Polish people, and Gypsies.

David Irving and his like make me vomit. They are scum, nothing better than dressed up racists.

Av.

Edit: Styer many of the things you mentioned as "good" were also in development in several other countries at the same time. Without the Nazi party there would still be jet engines, highways and firearms. They also invaded Poland, after telling the world they would not. Boy they sure do seem like nice guys. [rolleyes]

Ok, I did not mean to start a "Merits of Nazi Germany" thread. My only point was almost NOTHING is entirely good or evil. To suggest that ALL nazis were evil incarnate eating a fetus sandwich is absurd. Of course I'm not gonna try and tell you what a great guy Dr. Joe was either.

Off the top of my head I only came up with the military accomplishments. But Germany as whole did so much more before the war. Hitler wasn't Time Man of the Year 1936 because he wrote a book. The Nazi party started did good things for the citizens, and 1930s Germany was a pretty nice place to live, except of course if you were Jewish. That was my only point. But as we know, saying ANYTHING good about nazi Germany is very unPC.

But just to be absolutely clear, cause I don't feel like doing a long ass thread today, I have NO DOUBT the Holocaust happened at or near the numbers attributed to it. While certain things like black soap and human skin lamp shades may be fiction, what we do know as fact is bad enough.

-Those wonderful guys who brought the world the Volkswagen and the Blitzkreig.

Hitler won the war, he just didn't live to see it.

[url]http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/shaffer4.html[/url]

I don't think there's any denying the holocaust took place, but the attempt to silence any debate on the subject is a serious problem.

If you'll unfasten your lips from Lew Rockwell's pucker for a moment and review the link I posted, you'll see that this show was not about silencing debate, but about a Holocaust denier and Hitler apologist suing for libel someone who called him on it. In other words, he wanted to silence her.

Still advocating terrorism against and within the United States?

I don't know about the the MP-43/44 or StG-44 being the world's "first" assault rifle, either. If you define assault rifle as a select-fire shoulder weapon in a light rifle caliber, that distinction should go to the Federov, which was fielded in limited numbers by the Czar's troops in about 1915-1916, and remained in production after the Communists took over.

And technical achievements don't equal moral authority. The only "good" thing about Hitler was his incompetent bungling of wartime strategy, like insisting that the 6th Army fight to last man and refusing to allow full production and deployment of the Me-262. If not for Hitler, the war would have gone on many more years with many more Americans killed. Hitler was evil, and he was knowingly aided in his goals by most of the senior folks at OKW and a large portion of the German populace.

Are you SURE you didn't mean that "u" to be an "e?" [:D]



Of course he is.  If nothing else, he's consistent in his disloyalty to his country.