[size=4]Witness to violence[/size=4]
Posted: April 8, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

The fretting of the international community, now joined by the United States, over Israel’s attempt to defend itself from suicide bombing, treats the situation in the Middle East as though history, and moral reality, are irrelevant. Such is not the way to peace, or justice, in the region.

[b]In 1967 Arab forces massed against Israel, and the international community permitted Egyptian President Nasser to kick U.N. “peacekeepers” out of the Sinai. Then, the world stood by as hundreds of thousands of Arab troops attempted to deliver a deathblow to Israel. [u]That blow wasn’t thwarted by international outrage[/u]. [u]It was thwarted only by the unexpected brilliance of the Israeli military[/u].[/b]

As a result of that brilliant, desperate war for survival, Israel acquired the Sinai, the West Bank and Gaza. [b]It is a lie to speak of those territories as though Israel had seized them by aggression.[/b]

Everywhere else in the world, it is understood that territory acquired in self-defense need not be returned except in the context of a negotiated peace. And the Israelis have shown themselves willing time and time again to put that territory on the line in the hopes of achieving just such a negotiated settlement.

The historic Camp David accords between Israel and Egypt in 1978 resulted in Israel’s return of the Sinai to the Egyptians. An agreement made, an agreement kept. Israel has reached other, less comprehensive agreements with Jordan and even Syria. [b]When the other side is willing to keep its word, history shows that Israel has also kept its word. Why are we forgetting this now?[/b]

In negotiations with the PLO, the Palestinian Authority and Arafat, the Israelis have made concessions, reached agreements, signed on the dotted line and followed through on those agreements. Israel turned substantial authority in the West Bank and Gaza over to Yasser Arafat as a result of such an agreement.

And from the Palestinians has come lip service to peace and preparation for war. [b]The one thing – the one thing – that was required of their side has never been delivered. [u]And that is to stop killing Israelis[/u].[/b] The Palestinians have been unwilling to cease manipulating the peace process through deadly destruction of civilians.

[b]The Israelis, as a result, face the same situation we do in our war on terror.[/b] No defensive action will actually forestall the death-dealing blow of suicidal terror. The only possible step is to attack those who have incited, equipped and financed those who are determined to kill you.

[b]America understands this when we are attacked. We must acknowledge the same imperative in the policies that the Israelis are now pursuing.[/b]

- continued -

I have long supported the legitimate demand for Palestinian self-government. But the first prerequisite of self-government is to govern one’s own passions, resentment and anger. Martin Luther King made the 20th century’s racial progress possible by teaching us that even the victims of terrible oppression still are responsible for not contributing to the very culture of violence that oppresses them.

The Palestinian people need that kind of leadership now. But they aren’t getting it. Instead, they are being led into desperate acts of self-destruction. [b]Suicide bombing symbolizes all that such leadership offers.[/b] It accomplishes nothing except national immolation on the altar of prideful leaders preaching the martyrdom of despair.

Arafat’s leadership consists precisely of inciting his people to martyrdom. But “martyr” means “witness.” And the Palestinian people don’t need more witnesses to violence, incitement, reprisal and revenge. They desperately need witnesses to hope, leaders who will look at Israel’s record with Egypt, Jordan and others.

[b]Israel has kept its bargains.[/b] That is an offer of hope. The Palestinian choice for life and dignity is to challenge Israel with new, real offers of legitimate peaceful coexistence. The Palestinians can have reasonable hope that such offers will be met with honorable reply from Israel. But this can’t happen until the Palestinians reject the leadership now pushing them over the desperate precipice of revenge and self-destruction.

[b]America can help by repudiating the plea of victimization as excuse for the surrender to evil.[/b] We do not relieve Palestinian suffering by coddling a leadership which is seeking quite consciously to incite self-destruction. [b]If we have the toughness to join Israel in refusing to deal with such leadership, we will open the door to hope.[/b] We will help spark the Palestinian people to turn away from the cult of revenge, and to look for leaders willing to offer something better than the pointless destruction of the innocent.

See article at:[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27135[/url]

Hell, I should have just highlighted and underlined the whole article!

Eric The([b]KeyesIn2004![/b])Hun[>]:)]

Keyes is a very smart man. Its too bad he or people like him can't get elected president.

My very [b]first[/b] disappointment (now among many) with the new Bush Administration, was the failure by the President to appoint Keyes to some visible post in his cabinet or possibly as the US Ambassador to the UN, a post he held back in Reagan's days.

Eric The(AndI'mOnlyHalfJokingWithThe'KeyesIn2004')Hun[>]:)]

The more I see of Mr. Keyes the more I like him.  I too was dissapointed when Bush did not place him in a useful position.  I would vote for him in a election...

"Unexpected brilliance" eh???

FOR THE RECORD......

Here's what Israel's "unexpected brilliance" actually looked like, in practice.

1. Depending on whom you talk to, Israel had either SIGNED a peace treaty the day before their big victory, or indicated they WOULD sign the peace treaty. THE NEXT DAY they swooped down on to Arab forces and routed them. (I'm NOT an expert on these matters, but the above is what ISRAEL SUPPORTERS (kinda like athletic gear, eh??? [}:D] ) have told me happened) Essentially they lied, faked peace, and then made war. Brilliant indeed. UNLESS it was one of the times tha Arabs have done EXACTLY the same thing - then its "treachery." [rolleyes]

2. Atttacked the USS Liberty, killing 34 US sailors, and wounding 170 some others. In an hour and 15 minute long "friendly fire" attack (THAT right their is the definition of "bullshit") using some 800 rockets, a half dozen or more torpedoes, preceeded by some EIGHT identification flybys, the Israelis STILL "misidentified" the USS Liberty. Yeah, right.

Why was the Liberty attacked? It was an intelligence ship that easily had the ability to intercept Israeli air traffic and uncover their plot to "sucker punch" the Arabs by faking peace in order to gain the upper hand for making war. Again, this tactic is NOT a problem - UNLESS you are an Arab employing it. Then its "treachery."

Brilliant indeed. UNLESS you think a murderous attack on your "ally" and sucker punching someone at the peace table are reprehensible tactics.

ALSO, FOR THE RECORD.....

Mr. Keyes, admittedly a brilliant man, a statesman, and a great American, can throw out all the red herrings he wants to in this article, but the UNDERLYING reason for his support for Israel is a misunderstanding of Scripture that todays political Israel is the chosen people of God.

I can, AND HAVE, disproven this notion, using clear and unmistakeable Scriptures. NO ONE has yet even addressed the Scriptural references I've given. Further, when they try to make a Scriptural case themselves, they either don't even bother quoting Scripture (imagine making a Scriptural case by NOT using scripture [whacko] ), or go to obtuse, obscure, questionable texts in Daniel and Revelation, which are open to W-I-D-E interpretation, even to the point whether they offer ANY interpretative value for future events.

In this case, Mr. Keyes is NOT "Making Sense."

Post from garandman -

Bullsh|t from whomever you received THAT!
Israeli or Arab, it doesn't matter! Gen. Nasser had ordered the UN peacekeepers to leave the area and closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israelis shipping - an act of war.

'Day before their big victory'? When in the Six Day War was the 'day before their big victory'? Give us a date for these supposed peace signings!

Again, we need a date for all of this! And when you say 'Arabs' do you mean Egyptians, Jordanians, or Syrians? It matters to whom you are referring in order for me to refute the claims that you heard from others.

Another thread, another time, [b]garandman[/b], I don't have time for rehashing this old argument this morning.

Yes, indeed, [b]why?[/b] It's the question that I have been trying you or someone else to answer for a very long time!

Again, [b]garandman[/b], look at the timeline!

By the [b]afternoon of June 8, 1967[/b], the time of the mistaken attack, the Israelis were in possession of the entirety of the Sinai, with the Egyptian armies trying desperately trying to get across the Suez Canal to escape!

Jerusalem had been captured, the Jordanians knocked out of the war and the only thing left for Israel was to take the Golan Heights from the Syrians.

So, the USS Liberty was threatening no Israeli plans, it was uncovering no Israeli plots, it was not doing anything other than spying on the Soviet advisors in Egypt! Even James Ennes at the USS Liberty website admits as much.

So maybe Israel did this dastardly deed to cover up its impending attack on Syria? Hmmm?

That was the original story given by James Bamford in 'The Puzzle Palace' written in 1982.

When US and Israeli communiques were finally revealed in 1997, following the 30 year rule, it was obvious that the US not only knew about the impending Israeli attack on Syria, but actively encouraged it!

- continued -

US Ambassador to the United Nations, Arthur Goldberg (), acting under direct orders from President Johnson, delayed any vote by the Security Council for an immediate cease-fire until [u]after[/u] the US learned that the Golan Heights had fallen to Israel!

So James Bamford, in his current book, 'Body of Secrets', drops the 'Golan Heights' argument for the 'murdering Egyptian POWs' argument. What consistency!

But I've mentioned this fact (Bamford's flip-flop) on at least a dozen posts, have you never read them - the most serious researcher for your side in the USS Liberty and you don't keep up with his views? Shame on you, boy!

Again, this tactic is NOT a problem - UNLESS you are an Arab employing it. Then its "treachery."

View Quote

And what tactic would that be?

Mr. Keyes, admittedly a brilliant man, a statesman, and a great American, can throw out all the red herrings he wants to in this article, but the UNDERLYING reason for his support for Israel is a misunderstanding of Scripture that todays political Israel is the chosen people of God.

View Quote

So much misunderstanding, so little time!

[b]garandman[/b] has it ever occurred to you that Mr. Keyes, myself, and several thousands of devout Christians have read the very same passages that your cite and do not consider their impact the same as you do?

Besides, you never answer any of my questions to you concerning Scripture, so how can I be a good judge of any Scripture that you wish to quote me?

As I have said so often, let us just agree to disagree on this point.

Eric The(DanielIs[u]Still[/u]Prophetic,AsIsZechariah,etc.)Hun[>]:)]

yeah, what Eric said.

Sounds like Keyes has it about as right as it's possible to get it.  And garandman has it about as wrong.

Of course I've considered it. Long and hard. And it baffles me.

Just take these TWO Scriptures. Don't go spinning off into space. Address ONLY these two Scriptures -

[i]Luke 3: 8 -

Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.[/i]

What other possible conclusion can you come to other than the Jewish nations ENTIRE claim to fame, being lineal descendants of Abraham IN THE FLESH, is COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS to God???

Also -

[i]Romans 2: 28 - 29 -

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29   But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.[/i]

What other possible conclusion can you come to other than, in God's economy, "Jewishness" is a matter of one's spirituality, and NOT ones biology / DNA / fleshly lineal descent???

JUST ADDRESSS / OFFER INTERPRETATION /EXPLANATION OF THESE TEXTS. DO NOT QUOTE SOME JEWISH NEWSREEL, OR MEDIA OUTLET.

Use of OTHER Scriptural texts is preferred, rather than a tedious "Well, I beleive....."







The only Scriptural questions you have asked me were of  immersion baptism  and other COMPLETELY unrelated, irrelevant doctrines. This is a LAWYERS TRICK to evade addressing RELATED, RELEVANT Scriptures I have posted / quoted.

Well, the expected retaliation from the Muslim states has begun.
Iraq has announced they will suspend oil shipments for thirty days.  Iraq is simply the stalking horse.  The oil producers will gauge reaction from this move and will escalate accordingly.
Iraq exports roughly 4% of the world's oil.

Presently we only pay Israel about $5 Billion per year in outright gifts and co-signed notes.
Now the industrialized countries will pay Billions daily and all so that Israel may continue to occupy the Palestinian Territories.

[size=6] 5 US$???[/size=6]

Wow! Last week you posted 3 Billions US$!

I am curious: which inflaction rate are you using, the one of Argentina?

[b]garandman[/b], I don't mean to rag on your views on the cessation of Judaism as the way to Heaven and its replacement by Christianity - heck that's what every Christian should know, and every non-Christian be taught.

But I also know that the Lord said that Jerusalem would be trodden under foot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles had been fulfilled!

Well, Jerusalem was trodden under foot by the Gentiles from, oh, about 70 AD until a bright sunny June afternoon in 1967, when Israeli paratroopers overcame the last Jordanian units and drove them from the Holy City.

The most poignant photo from that Six Day War is the photo of the Israeli paratrooper, with his Uzi slung over his back, praying at the Wailing Wall.

The first time a Jew had been permitted at the Wailing Wall in well over a generation!

So how did the Lord know that once Jerusalem slipped out of Jewish control, it would be more than 1900 years before it was once again under 'Jewish' control?

Well, now that's the question of a lifetime!

So, is the Lord correct, will Jerusalem never again be under Gentile control?

And what does his phrase 'until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled' mean to you?

I know what it means to me, what it probably means to Dr. Keyes, and what it certainly means to thousands of Christians.

- continued -

Remember [b]Zechariah? Chapter 12?[/b]

1   The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2   Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3   And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4   In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5   And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6   In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7   The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8   In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9   And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

[b]10   And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.[/b]

Pierced? Mourn for Him? As an Only Son?

Just who in Heaven's name is being referred to in this passage?

Eric The(AstonishedTheseAren'tHeadlinesToday!)Hun[>]:)]

But then, what else is new? [:D]

Post from garandman -

Which, if you will recall, [b]Brother garandman[/b] I used to show you that if all Christians cannot even agree on these basic, necessary sriptures upon which Salvation itself hangs, how can we ever come to an agreement concerning such a vain and usless argument over whether Israel or the Jews still have a place in the Lord's plan for mankind?

The scriptures you posted are child's play - they are the very first thing that I was taught in a church of Christ Bible Study, so why would I waste my time arguing or pontificating on such 'givens' as 'No one comes to God but through Jesus'?

What sense is there in arguing whether being Jew in the flesh is sufficient? It wasn't sufficient in Jesus' day, it's not sufficient now!

Do you recall the two times that Jesus' life was threatened [u]before[/u] His trial and what He was doing at the time?

Answer that and you will understand a lot more about how Jesus felt about His Jewish brethren.

Lord, [b]garandman[/b], get off the 'Jews are jerks' stump for a while and open your eyes for once in your adult Christian life!

And get off the 'lawyers are jerks' stump while you're at it![:D]

Eric The(WhyAmINotAJew?Huh?)Hun[>]:)]

$2 Billion in gifts, approx. $850,000 million for U.S. Tech buys and $2 Billion in loan guarantees.

Paolo the number just depends on whether or not the guaranteed loans are counted.

300,000 illegal Israelis have settled in the occupied Territories.  Politically Sharon can't quit and neither can Arafat.

Ultimately Sharons present actions will adversely affect Israel although the cry today is to kill the rags, ragheads, subhumans and vermin.  The last two are especially distressing as those are the exact words used by the Nazis to describe the Jews.

Dehumanization of the Palestinian people is well underway.

Two questions:

1. Why must you use God's name in vain?? Again??

2. Why am I NOT suprised you YET AGAIN did NOT address the specific verses I quoted?

Q2 is simply ansawered - becasue there is NO OTHER explanation for these verses  other than the one I've given. Their meaning is UNMISTAKEABLE. IF you dared address them, you would HAVE to admit the error of your position.

Why you and Mr. Keyes and thousands of other Christians can't see what is plainly there is probably explained by intention as much as anything else. YOu have no intention of seeing it.


Besides, I've NEVER EVER asserted that Jews, because of their Jewishness, are jerks. This is yet another lawyer smear tactic by you. Its anti-Semitism accusation-lite. Lots of peoples ACTIONS make them jerks.More frequently than not, those " people" are Arabs. Occasionally, they are Jews. You've simply turned a blind eye to ANY TIME those "people" happen to be Jewish.

I refuse to do that.




Stop being a lawyer EVADING these PROOF texts, and give explantion of the specific verses, and your wish will come true. [:D]

Thought that NEEDED to be said again.

The victims have become the aggressors.

Post from 5subslr5 -

Wow, [b]subsailor[/b], as you might well guess, I have several Israeli newspapers on my web browser's 'favorite sites.'

I peruse those papers daily, and I can safely say that I have seen nothing, absolutely nothing that I wouldn't want to see printed in a thread on this site!

I also peruse the Palestinian and Arab sites as well. There's a lotta crap that you would be surprised (maybe not) on these sites that sounds an awful lot like something right off  the 'greatest hits' collection by Dr. Goebbels!

Would you like some samples of such 'dreck'?

Nope.

But the most dehumanizing thing that one could do to a young Palestinian is to convince him or her, or permit him or her, or glorify him of her for putting on an belt of explosives and choosing to walk into a grocery store, a disco, a pizzeria, a wedding chapel, a synagogue, a marketplace, or even on an open street and literally blow themselves to kingdom come!

Along with a couple of dozen 'innocents' and wounding many, many more!

[b]That is not dehumanizing enough?[/b]

And it comes to them from that arch-villain and recent recipient of the prestigious 'Eric The Hun's Corpse Most Likely to Be Identified Through Dental Records' Award - Chairman Yasser 'I need a clean washcloth, now!' Arafat!

Can you imagine anything more dehumanizing?

[img]http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/04/images/site_images/DryBones-Main_Picture.gif[/img]

Eric The(DidIMissACall,OrWhat?)Hun[>]:)]

Eric,
the words I listed have all been used right here on AR15.com and many have been used in response to topics posted by you.

I had a thread running when the "Sand Ni$$er" words started to be used.
I asked that the topic be locked as I didn't want to delete the entire thread because some had worked to give thoughtful posts.

Would you not think any one considering making themselves a suicide bomber would at least question what they are told about what kind of paradise they will have when they die. If it is such a great thing blowing yourself up and becoming a martyr, then why is it the guy recruiting others has not already done it first.

Post from garandman -

Yes, as I've mentioned over and over again, but to no avail when it comes to [u]your[/u] understanding, there is no name given under Heaven by which we may be saved other than Jesus. Being of the flesh of Abraham, while it was once a sure-fire ticket to Heaven, no longer suffices under the current state of God-human affairs.

John the Baptist said it, Jesus said it. That pretty much finishes it for me, for all time.

So what is your point????????????????????

Yes, I believe that 'I am a Jew inwardly, that I am just as much a child of Abraham as the chiefest Rabbi in all Israel, even more so'!

But so what? I can lose this just the same way in which the Jews lost theirs!

Don't believe it? Then consider this from Paul:

[b]Romans 11:

20   Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

[b]21   For if God spared not the [u]natural branches[/u], take heed lest he also spare not thee.[/b]

[b]22   Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: [u]on them which fell, severity[/u]; but toward thee, goodness, [u]if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off[/u].[/b]

How's that for preaching, [b]garandman[/b]?

Who were the 'natural branches' that were not spared? The Jews?????

[u]Now[/u] I expect you to address the Scripture that I have posed to you, beginning with the quote from Zechariah!

Let's hear it! I'm in a Revival kind of spirit this morning!

Eric The(Scriptural)Hun[>]:)]

Post from 5subslr5 -

You mean [u]here[/u]? The 'dehumanization of Palestinians' is on this site?

Well, then, I don't think that Palestinians have anything to worry about in being dehumanized on this Board!  

No one [u]here[/u] is going to talk a young boy or girl into something nearly as stupid as becoming a 'suicide bomber.'

We'll leave that to the folks who are charged with their well-being, you know, those kids parents, the leader of their people, Yasser 'Bring Me a Clean Towel, Somebody!' Arafat, and the chief Islamic leadership of the Palestinians.

And the Saudi moneybags that make it all worthwhile.

And profitable.

For the parents, at least.

Gee, now that I think about [u]it[/u], what Palestinian child would want to continue living under such circumstances as I've just described?

Abandoned by parents, by authorities, and by their God? What a life they must have to endure!

Eric The(Dehumanized,Indeed!)Hun[>]:)]

And that partial sentence states precisely why I am an Agnostic.

Seems that I join the Jews, Palestinians and billions of other non-Christians on the highway to hell.

Post from 5subslr5 -

Don't let anything I say burn you out on God!

That partial sentence was from an address I made to [b]garandman[/b], and we all know that I might be wrong, as [b]garandman[/b] seems to think I am.

I would never say anything like that to someone who didn't believe the way I believed!

Unless I was trying to convert them....

....but you said you weren't gonna bring your waterwings to the BRC.

So, I'll leave my Bible on my nightstand![:D]

Eric The(JustAsIAm,WithoutOnePlea)Hun[>]:)]

I believe the suicide bombers act for three reasons:

1) Religion
2) To free the occupied Territories
3) Financial security for the families left behind.

I'm far from certain as to whether the reasons are in the correct order.
From memory I believe the average Palestinian in the Occupied Territories makes approximately $270.00 per year.  The financial incentive is substantial.  (Only a few months ago the amount was $10,000 now increased to $25,000.)

(You might remember the Japanese in WW II paid nothing for their suicide pilots and never ran out of willing pilots.)

This is BETTER. An actual discussion of relevant verses.



Your treatment is FAR too simplistic.

Christ was making that point that "earthly Jewishness" is irrelevant to God. God could take stones and make "earthly Jews."

So if God considers it as nothing, why do I hear "God's people" constantly crowing about it?



The verse cuts TWO ways -

1. Those in Christ ARE Jews.
2. Those outside Christ ARE NOT Jews.

So to say that God has special plans for those OUTSIDE Christ is to minimize Christ. Making Christ only ONE way to God. Like you said "There is NO OTHER name, under heaven..."

And to say that national Israel, who STILL remains in rebellion to jehovah, and in a present state of rejection of messiah, are "Jewish" DOES NOT hold with Scripture.





Scripturally, once a person is TRULY saved, they will ALWAYS evidence repentance. (NOT sinless perfection, but sin will ALWAYS be quickly followed by conviction, which will be followed by repentance) Those not evidencing repentance were NEVER saved. In THIS context, "cut off" HAS to have a different meaning that it did for national Israel.

The Jews ARE the natural branches, the Gentiles are grafted in. The text you cite is a warning from Paul to NOT travel down the path of arrogance that the Jewish nation travelled down (thinking their blood lineage to Abraham was of value, a MYTH "Christians" are STILL spreading today)

It is on this vein Paul points out the inherent weakness of the first covenant made with national Israel, showing the need for the second covenant with spiritual Israel.

Heb. 8: 7 -


[i]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.[/i]

The covenant with Israel was CONDITIONAL - if you do this I will do that. The covenant with spiritual Israel is unconditional. God worte His law in our hearts, so that our disobedience will NOT sever teh covenant. (Again, those truly in covenant relationsip under the new covenant will evidece both repentance and progressive sanctification)

I'll have to study the Zechariah text to give it full treatment.

No worries there as I have a strong belief in God.  Eric, I am an Agnostic - not an atheist.

(The partial sentence is the Christian position not simply yours alone.)

I don't believe Jews can practice the Jewish faith and be "in Christ" can they ??  
If this statement is true then what are the Jews ?

The definition of the word "infidel" some how seems appropriate here.  My source is "Rogets 21st Century Thesaurus (In Dictionary Form)."
Infidel:  (n) nonbeliever. agnostic, atheist. GENTILE, heathen, heretic, non-worshipper, pagan, unbeliever
(I have added the caps to Gentile.)

Perceptive question.


The keeping of the law, which was the heart and soul of Judaism, involved ceremonies and rituals, and sacrifices, ALL OF WHICH pointed to a need for a coming Messiah.

Well, THAT messiah has already come. To practice the Jewish faith today is to declare Christ a phony, and a bastard child (Christ Himself professed he WAS that Messiah, and the fulfillemt of the law)

In Galatians 3 Paul states that the law has been fulfilled, and hebrews 8 states that the law (and thereby the Jewish faith) has vanishd away.

So the natural Jewish person is in essence, in the mind of God, on the SAME footing as the most Gentilest gentile - namely, in need of Jesus Christ as Saviour. And someone God loved enuf to sacrifice His Only Son.

Which is the essence of my beef against this false notion that "the Jews are God's chosen people."

How do I tell someone "You are God's chosen, but if you don't receive the individual you consider a phony and a bastard as your personal savior, that same God is gonna damn you to everlasting hell" and NOT have that person look at me like I'm INSANE?????

And they would be right to dismiss me as a lunatic. As well as the Christ I preach.

Post from garandman -

Talk about LAWYERLY speech! What does 'TRULY' saved mean?

Where did you find [u]that[/u] in the scriptures?

'NEVER saved'? So [u]we[/u] are in charge of determining when someone is 'TRULY' saved or 'NEVER' saved?  

So, in 'THIS context', 'cut off' HAS to have a different meaning that it did for national Israel, [u]simply[/u] to support your arguments!

'HAS to have a different meaning?' Why?

That is sure strange talk for a Christian who believes in the Bible! It sounds so liberal in the naked light of day!

I can just imagine the Lord on Judgment Day looking at some poor sinner and saying to him 'In this context you are not 'cut off' the way that the Jews who were in line in front of you were 'cut off', because you were 'truly' saved and they were 'never' saved.'

Scriptures? I need Scriptures for this!

Nonsense! The 'MYTH' that Christians are still spreading today is that if you are 'TRULY' saved, whatever that might mean, then you will never, ever, ever lose that salvation no matter how badly you act aftewards!

That is a myth that mocks Jesus on the Cross worse than any Roman soldier dared, or any Jewish Sanhedrinist would have thought wise!

You may call it whatever you like, but it is still that old lie - 'Once saved always saved!'

And some Christians arrogate such 'salvation' to themselves and to themselves only!

[b]You'll never hear one of them saying 'Once God's Chosen People, Always God's Chosen People!'[/b]

Am I right? Say it out loud 'Once God's Chosen People, Always God's Chosen People!'

Kinda sticks in your craw, doesn't it?[:D]

Eric The(churchOfChrister)Hun[>]:)]

garandman, Zechariah 8:3,8,11-15 shows that Israel will come back to the Lord.

In that day, many will say "Lord, Lord." But He will say "I never knew you.

Relax, Hun. "Truly saved" simply means that a person has BOTH made profession of Christ (LOTS of unsaved people profess Chrsit) but also POSSESSES Christ, in the spirit. Stated another way, it simply means ones manner of living will MATCH his profesion of faith.




"By their fruits, ye shall know them."



I already explained that.



"Naked light of day???" NOW who's been reading them Barbara Cart(whatevertheheckhernamewas) romance novels??? [}:D]







NO DOUBT that misleading teaching HAS been abused by many as a licence to sin, which is why I SPECIFICALLY DID NOT purport it. Bibliceally, the correct teaching is "Once converted, always repentant."

"How we act afterwards" will be controlled by whether we actually were converted and saved, or whether it was an empty profession of faith in Christ.

Your attempt to stick me with the "once saved, always saved " tag is hollow, at best. I never said that.



I don't HAVE a "craw." Eric. Must be a Jewish thing.  [}:S]

But your "lawyering" is showing its ugly head again. Delay, distract, deny, make counter accusations. [b]This is so far afield of the Scriptures I originally quoted. And I can read your glee, as you wish to be as far away from them as possible.[/b]

I continually fail to exactly understand how Jesus was Jewish and the Messiah yet the Jews didn't recognize him the first time and I 'believe' they await the coming of their first Messiah while Christians await the second coming of their Messiah.

Now Eric assures me both Jews and Christians await the coming - be it first or second - of the same Messiah ??

I'm not disputing that.

But let's be clear. The OT is ONLY understood in the light of the NT.

Scripturally, Israel's return to the Lord can ONLY be thru salvation in Christ Jesus, same as for Gentiles. Not by the keeping of the law.

[i]Romans 3: 20, Galatians 2:16 -

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight[/i]

Futher, a reading of God's  OT land covenant with national Israel will show the covenant was [size=6]CONDITIONAL[/size=6] "If you obey the law, you will have the land forever."

Well, they didn't keep the law, and they lost the land in keping with the terms of the covenant. The way history has played out PROVES the land covenant was condition.( From AD 70 to 1948, the Jews WERE NOT in possession of the land)

They violated and broke it numerous times, the covenant is nullified. (That is the way conditional covenants work) This was in accordance with God's plan, as the WHOLE POINT of the first covenant with national Israel  was to show the need for teh Second covenant with spiritual Israel.

Worse, in trying to give jewish peoples the land BEFORE they return to God (even if teh old covenant was still in effect) is to get the cart before the horse. Obedience was to PRECEED the blessing of the land, not the other way around.

I encourage you to read the covenants for yourself, and see if what I say is true. DO NOT take ETH's word for it - read FOR YOURSELF.

Well, subslr, for an "agnostic" you seem to be showing more perception that my good buddy Eric [}:D]

The Jews missed Him the first time BECAUSE they were looking for Him to provide them land, power, world / political significance, and freedom from the Romans. ( I have SEVERAL Scriptural proof texts for this)

They are STILL missing Him (in part) because my "Christian brethern" cheer them on to seek land, power, world / political significance, and freedom from the Arabs.



Scripturally, unless they receive Christ as Saviour BEFORE the Second coming of Christ, His Second Coming will, for them, be one of judgment and damnation. (As is the case for ALL men)

Which makes my Christian brethern distracting them with land, power, world / political significance, and freedom from the Arabs a HEINOUS thing to do.

Arrgh......

Overheard at the Sermon on the Mount

JEW
Could you be quite, please. [To trouble:] What was that?

TROUBLE
I don't know... I was too busy talking to bignose.

MAN
I think it was 'Blessed are the cheese-makers'.

JEW'S WIFE
Ah. What's so special about the cheese-makers?

JEW
Well obviously it's not meant to be taken literally, it refers to any
manufacturers of dairy products.

Do you really thing we could have Mr. Keyes in the UN in this day and age?
The commies in the UN have big balls now,they don't thing Bush will nuke them like they did with Reagan.
If You are like Bush and you feel het best way to deal with is to back door thet and bypass they them you don't set your self up for a face to face show down.

I give Keyes ten mins. before he shoot one of the fags in there today.

BTW:Don't think I like every thing Bush dose but we don't know all of what he knows so lets just set back and see what he dose.

You and Eric were very similar in your responses as to why Jews missed Him the first time and that makes sense to me.  That Messiah who didn't set me free, I too would have likely missed.

Now I would like to move to a single person practicing the Jewish faith.
If this person does not become Christian and the Messiah came today then this Jew is damned ?
What about those who have died but not died as Christians ??
Do all Jews have to move to embrace Christ or is this an individual thing.

According to Christian beliefs are Jews  subject to any more (or less) obligations than any other non Christian ??
Are the exact same beliefs (to be saved) required of both Jew and non Jew ??

(Look guys, this is not just a bunch of posts for me.  I'm really ignorant in this subject (and many others) but I am trying to learn something and am not trying to just ask 'cute' questions.)

Dave -

Well, both OT and NT are complimentary.

But even ETH will tell you that the OT saints (who drew their knowledge of God's plan from the OT text) did not have full revelation re: Jesus Christ Himslef, and a whole host of other subjects.

Well, MANY of those subjects were FULLY revealed in the NT. In that vein, I made my comment, you CANNOT interpret the OT without the NT.

Yes, as are all men of all nations, in the scenario you give.




They died in unbelief, which means they are in hell today. [sarcasm]Pretty rotten thing for God to do to His "chosen people" eh???[/sarcasm]






As with all men, salvation in Christ is a personal decision for the Jew. God would be unjust if He condemned a single individual for the sins of another (unless, as was the case with Christ, that individual willingly took on the sins of another)



Exactly the same obligation. However, according to Romans 9, the Jew has been given MANY advantages over the Gentile to "see their Messiah" for which they will be held accountable. "To whom much is given, much is required."




Exactly the same.



Ask on, my friend.

I understand much better now.

Moving forward, many times I've read something to the effect that the "Jews were God's chosen people."

Was this proclaimed in the Old Testament ?  The New Testament and by Jesus or in the New Testament but by ______________??

(I'm thinking this has to be Old Testament.)

Post from thedave1164 -

What debate? I don't even understand what he's talking about!

[u]Worse[/u], I don't believe that he knows what he's talking about!

Personally, any Christian who hasn't studied the prophecies of the Old Testament, particularly Zechariah, is a bit behind in his reading, I would say.

Eric The('TRULY'Saved?Not[u]Yet[/u]!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from garandman -

That is [b]so unclear[/b] as to defy comment!

Christianity is very, very simple. It was designed to be simple. There is nothing hard to understanding Christianity.

It was so simple that it became the religion of the poor and the oppressed. It was so beautiful and fulfilling that it became the religion of the affluent and powerful.

You simply have to [b]hear[/b] the word of God and the story of His Son, Jesus Christ. You must [b]believe[/b] that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. You must [b]repent[/b] of your sins, which simply means a complete change in the direction your life has been headed. You must [b]confess[/b] His name before men. You must be [b]baptized[/b] into His death, burial and resurrection, as an adult believer. And you must [b]continue in His goodness[/b] the rest of your earthly life.

If you fail to do any one of these particular items then I am not certain of your salvation, no more than I would be certain of my own salvation if I failed to do these things.

Hopefully, we will find that Jesus was just pulling our collective legs when He said:

[red][b]13  "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14   "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."[/b][/red] Matthew, Chapter 7.

But I rather doubt it. I think He was as serious as a Savior and Redeemer would be in making such a statement!

Eric The(StrictConstructionist)Hun[>]:)]

Post from garandman -

I say that Christianity [b]is[/b] extremely simple to grasp. Very simple.

While [u]you[/u] say that Jesus was making the point that 'earthly Jewishness' is irrelevant to God, He was enjoying the 'Hoshanahs' of the Jewish throng - much to the displeasure of the scribes and Pharisees from the Temple!

Those 'Hoshanahs' were not irrelevant to God or to His Son, they were the fulfillment of an age old prophecy concerning His coming.

Yes, God could have made stones cry out the required 'Hoshanahs' for Christ, but the fact is, He didn't have to, the Jewish people were doing just as they were predicted to do!

What an incredible day that [u]must[/u] have been! The 'revealing' of the Messiah to believing Israel, His greeting and shouts of acclamation by His people, and His triumphant entrance into the Holy City!

[u]You[/u] think that God considers it as [u]nothing[/u], but a lot of Christians don't see it that way at all!

You know, [b]garandman[/b], if Christianity was everywhere practiced the way that you and I might agree it should be practiced, then your arguments may, and I mean just may, have some weight.

But mainline Christianity is so messed up with its own brand of Phariseeism, that I don't see that it is anything like the Christianity of the Early Church, at all!

And there is no more Pharisaical doctrine that besets the Church than that of 'TRULY' saved, or 'once saved always saved' or some other similar nonsense.

It takes the life out of Christianity and gives us a bland religion that drives its followers away by the car loads.

Such is the mindset of the [u]very[/u] folks to whom the Lord will say [red][b]'Depart from me, Ye workers of iniquity, I know ye not![/b][/red]

[b]Grace is free, but it's not cheap![/b]

Eric The(I'llBeSavedWhenI'mDead,OrWhenHeComesToGetMe!)Hun[>]:)]

Its sort of an amalgamation of genesis 12: 2 where God said he would make a"great nation" out of Abraham, and then specific cases where he called national Israel "My people."

Of course, that needs to be understood in the light of NT truth, which I have quoted early and often in this forum.

Of GREATER relevance to this discussion is Psalm 73: 1 , where King David said "Truly God is good to Israel, EVEN to those whose heart is right."

The phrase "even to those whose heart is right" is a LIMITING PHRASE, defining who "Israel" actually is. What makes this relevant is the fact that its Old testament, LONG before Christ's arrival on earth.

In essence David, via this limiting phrase, was saying "God is so good to those who have a right heart. But if your heart isn't right, you are not Israel." From this we learn that, spiritually speaking, Israel is LIMITED to those whose heart is right (and by extension, your bloodline tracing back to Abraham is IRRELEVANT)

Again, scripturally, ONLY God, thru Christ Jesus can make a heart "right" Accordingly, if you are saved in Christ Jesus, then you heart is right, and the "limiting phrase" above defines you as part of israel.

And EXCLUDES those from Israel that do not have a heart that is right before God, REGARDLESS of who they can trace their family tree back to.

EricTheHun,


The more of your posts I read, the more I think Shakespeare was a brilliant man.




"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

[:D]