[url]http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134431790_bellringer05.html[/url]
[b]Church of Nativity bell ringer is killed [/b]
By Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson
Knight Ridder Newspapers

BETHLEHEM, West Bank -- To Samir Ibrahim Salman, the traditional birthplace of Jesus was almost a second home. [b]He was baptized at the basilica marking the site.[/b]

He served as caretaker at the church and rang its bell daily, announcing worship services, weddings or funerals to the residents of this Palestinian town.

Salman, 45, died trying to get to his beloved Church of the Nativity yesterday, fatally shot while trying to cross the 100 yards from his house to the sanctuary.

The sixth-century church, one of Christianity's holiest shrines, has been the scene of a standoff since Tuesday between Israeli troops and more than 200 armed Palestinians who an Israeli military spokesman said, "are holding priests and nuns as hostages inside."

Hearing no gunfire, Salman had apparently decided the siege was over and hurried outside in hopes of catching the end of a regularly scheduled 6 a.m. service, said Pastor Johnny Shahwan, an acquaintance who lives in the neighboring town of Beit Jala.

Salman was struck by several bullets in the chest and died instantly, doctors said.

There were reports that Salman was mentally impaired and that he didn't understand Israeli soldiers when they ordered him to halt. [b]A priest inside the church said the soldiers shot him dead.[/b]

Salman's remains lay wrapped in plastic next to that of four other Palestinians killed since the Israelis entered Bethlehem.

There would be no burials, at least for now, said hospital administrator Dr. Peter Qumri, a Bethlehem resident.

[b]Except for yesterday, the Israelis hadn't allowed ambulances to pick up the wounded, let alone allowing people to bury their dead, he said.[/b]

[b]U.N. Special Envoy Terje Larsen accused Israelis of not allowing Palestinians access to medical care or allowing them to bury their dead, calling that a "clear violation of humanitarian law and humanitarian principles."[/b]

A uniformed spokesman for the Israeli Defense Forces said, "We unfortunately have been victims of Red Crescent ambulances being used for terrorist and attempted terrorist attacks."

A Palestinian reached on his cell phone who said he was inside the ancient basilica described [b]Israeli forces blowing open a door to the church courtyard and firing inside,[/b] wounding three people.

[b]Journalists could not get to the Church of the Nativity to verify either claim.  Bethlehem and five other West Bank towns taken over by Israel in the past week have been declared closed military areas, sealed off to the media, aid groups and U.N. workers.[/b]

An Israeli military spokesman said the Palestinians had begun opening fire today, but the Israelis had not returned fire in order to protect the church and dozens of clerics inside.

"The shooting is coming from inside the church at Israeli soldiers, who are not responding," Israel Defense Forces spokesman Marcus Scheff said.

He said he didn't know if soldiers had entered the compound but added, "I believe they are holding position."

Information from The Associated Press and Reuters is included in this report.

Some comments:
1) Obviously the Israelis are holding their fire -- that explains how they shot the bellringer dead.
2) The priest must be a biased source, else how could he think the Israelis were the ones who fired.
3) The Israelis must be highly concerned about journalists' health, which explains why they are barring them from the area and shooting them when they try to document the violence (as happened to an Italian journalist earlier in the week).

Man, that's bad.  Sounds like a war or something.

Really!!  What is it that some of you don't understand how things work at times like this??

War isn't always clean...Isreal has to do what it has to do.

sgtar15

"Murder" is the unlawful taking of a human life, what israel is doing is completely within the bounds of law, so even if an israeli soldier did pull the trigger, it was a lawful kill.

Well, there is another article on that same tragic shooting that honestly says that the identity of the sniper is unknown.

[url]http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessionid=VEF3F4UK4PL0YCRBAEKSFEYKEEATIIWD?type=worldnews&StoryID=776857#[/url]

Hmmm, I wonder how the priest inside the Church was able to detect that it was Israeli soldiers who shot Salman?

Israel does enough 'wrong' in its efforts to do 'right' without needlessly blaming them for this 'sniper' shooting.

The reason I put quotes around 'sniper' is due to the fact that the articles say Salman was shot 'several times in the chest.'

Sounds to me as if he got stitched by a simple gunman, rather than a sniper.

Unless the definition of 'sniper' has now been expanded to cover anyone with a weapon.

Eric The(WatchOutForLiberalPressToExpandTheMeaningOfSniperThereForUseHere!)Hun[>]:)]

Palestinians are pathological liars.  Can't believe a word of propaganda they utter!  They have elevated lying to a level even above what N Vietnam did.  At least the Israelies have started killing the murderous vermin now.  After the hundreds of innocents these creeps have bl;own up it is hard to feel sorry for the small numbers of THERI innocents that stumble into the line of fire.

My question is, why have they not done the right thing and shot Arafathead?

yeah, how things work - EXCEPT if you are an Arab, then the taking of innocent human life is "terrorism." But an Israeli taking innocent human life is (to use your words) "how things work."

Hypocrite.

"War isn't clean. {Palestinians} have to do what they have to do." If you can't sign on to THAT statement withe the same fervor you said your statement with, then you are a HYPOCRITE.

Unbelievable.

He was a Christian. Nether side liked him!

I wonder if I can get the Israelies to shoot our passive/aggressive organist.


Alte Lutherische Sagen:  When Satan fell from Heaven he landed on the organist's bench.

I was unaware that war was a humanitarian action.

I suppose that for the Israeli's to be able to go to worship, or dinner, without very legitimate fears of being blown up by suicide bombers is rediculous. That someone would complain about the treatment the Palestinians are recieving is funny to me, haha. But then again, the Israeli's should probably believe Arafat this time when he says that the violence will end. After all, he has stuck to his word so faithfully in the past.

Quasi Moto should have come to the decision that ringing the bells could be put off for a few days. Ya know, like until the F**KING WAR IS OVER!!

Ask not for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.  [X]

Post from garandman -

So [u]you[/u] were the Priest inside the Church who witnessed the shooting of Salman?

Is 'shooting innocents' a well-known Israeli pastime?

If it is, it's certainly not a [u]national[/u] pastime, but one that's only engaged in by a infinitesimally small number of IDF troops!

Eric The(Scorekeeper)Hun[>]:)]

I'll have to check some of the ecclessial sites.  I'm betting that not only will Metropolitans, Patriarchs and Bishops have their panties in a knot over this one... I'm betting that the big guy himself (the Pope) is gonna be pi$$ed!

Maybe it's like the other news, spreaded by the MISNA and PA that Israelis gunned a italian priest in Beitlehem and, after a whole day that the Vatican and Italian media were painting Israel as a very bad guy, the truth popped out: the priest was well alive, shown in a picture.

Or like Mohamed A-Durra, shot in Netzarim with the father, that after ONE YEAR resulted, in a German TV reportage, have been shot not by the ISraelis but by the Palestinians.

Or like the UN observer in Hebron, claimed to be shot by Israeli settlers, and then, one of the survivors (a Turkish observer) stated that the PA Police opened fire on them.

There are many examples of pathologic liars, I understand that Palestinians have to cover their ass, but I am starting to have enough.

In these hours CIA are examining papers found by the IDF in the office of the economic advisor of Arafat that links this one to the terror attacks: far from being on the Sharon's side, I ask to all my AR15 brothers what Israel and US should do if CIA will confirm that the documents aren't a fake and Arafat is clearly involved in terrorism...

What's your point? R U saying that since it doesn't necessarilty happen daily, we should ignore it this time?

And it doesn't even matter if this story is true or not.

"Your side " of the debate dismissed it as "part of war"  but then ALSO condemns the same kind of Palestinian killing of innocents.

That's what we call hypocrisy.

And you - your IMMEDIATE reaction to these stories is ALWAYS to provide cover for ALL Israeli actions, no matter how potentially deplorable.

Your inability to condemn the Israeli actions (if true) and the blood thirstiness  of some people here is telling. Telling that you lack objectivity.

When a Palestinian kills an "innocent", his goal is to kill an innocent, to terrify and kill.  One less Jew.

When an IDF soldier kills an "innocent", his goal was to kill a militant, a combatant, NOT just kill any Palestinian for the sake of killing.

If you can't see the moral difference, you have a problem.

Well, he's a dead ringer for whoever the sniper really was... (Gad! I am slain by my own wit!)

I am confused.  If an IDF soldier's goal is to kill a militant, then why would he kill an innocent?

Crossfire, mistakes, misidentifications (they don't wear uniforms, and they hide amongst innocents).

NOT "Look, there's a little girl, I'm going to kill her!"

Big difference.

WE call it "collateral damage".

There is NO moral equivalence between a suicide bomber sneaking into a 13 year old girl's birthday party, or a family's holiday dinner, and blowing everyone up, AND the death of innocent Palestinian civilians who get caught in the crossfire of IDF and militants.

the way I look at it is goes like this.

country a and country b live in harmony

country a and country be develope some kind of problem

country a attacks country b (they are the first to act on this problem and there for the aggressor)

country b returns the aggression in self deffense (only fighting in defense of its self because it was force to).

any person in country b who is killed is a tragic case.

any person who is killed in country A is collateral damage [}:D]

not a wonderful thing in any case but thats what you get for starting wars. I know that not all palestinians are part of the war effort,and it's not always fair but if you got a better Idea please do tell.

ps if you cheat and kill innocent people when you play the game, well some times it comes back to [B]BITE YOU IN THE ASS[/B]

[b]"There were reports that Salman was mentally impaired and that he didn't understand Israeli soldiers when they ordered him to halt. A priest inside the church said the soldiers shot him dead."[/B]

Yeah, that's what happens when you find yourself in the middle of an armed conflict and don't follow the orders of the people keeping peace.  I'm sure the Israeli army was just itching to shoot an unarmed, mentaly impaired priest!  Are there any black helicopters hovering near your house?

And it's been said before, but [b]JOURNALISTS SHOULDN'T BE IN A WAR ZONE![/B]  I have never been able to understand why anyone would WANT to be in a warzone?!  If you're in the service then it's your duty and responsibility, and God bless you for that.  But if all you have is a camera and a microphone you had better stay the hell out of there.  It should go against any bit of self preservation and common sense to stay away from a conflict.  Wait, can we send Geralod Rivera? [}:D]

God Bless Texas

Only the whole friggin' world knows that the Church of the Nativity is filled with Palestinian Gunmen, and that Bethlehem is crawling with Israeli Tanks.
This Bell ringer couldn't hear the rumbling treads, the crack of tank cannons and small arms fire?
If the poor guy's mentally slow, that's a shame.
But, c'mon now.

I'm curious.
How did the priest SEE who shot the bellringer?
Was he watching a particular Israeli sniper, who happened to fire?
Was the "sniper" only a few feet away from the bellringer, allowing the priest to "take in" the whole scene?

At least you have the guts to admit that you are confused.....Thats a big start.

Ok so here it goes....You are in a combat zone facing a group of over 200 of your most hated enemy.  An enemy that has vowed to kill not only you but to destroy your entire civilization......GOT THAT SO FAR??

Ok so now you see some guy run past you......what do you do?  Shoot first?  Or let the other guy take a few pot shots at you to make sure that he is a bad guy.

It's a combat zone for christ sakes!!!

It is just NOT a good idea to run around the place.......without expecting to get shot!  The same thing goes for the reporters at the scene.....I sure hope that they are getting paid the big bucks.

Whoa!  Someday I'd like to be as an accomplished "sniper" as this soldier was.  Using a sniper rifle, he managed to pop his target three times in the chest before the body hit the ground.

$hit, talk about some serious training and accuracy! [;)]

Where do I sign up???

my first response was gonna be "ain't war hell".  but since so many of you condemn the Israelis for taking war-like actions in a WAR, i thought i'd re-evaluate my strategy.

so here it is:  "ain't war deadly"

both sides.  it isn't a chess match.  it doesn't consist of "let me check your papers so i can decide if i need to shoot your or not".  it's kill or be killed.  shoot first, ask questions and forgiveness later.  personally, i think the idea of "rules" of war is just about ludicrous.  as unpalatable as shooting innocents and non-combatants is to me, i also think that if they don't want to take that risk, then get the hell outta dodge!  if i'm not an active participant in the war, then i'm sure as hell not going to stand in the middle of it.

The amazing thing, is that the door was blown OUTWARD, into the street.
The Israelis sure do know some neat tricks.
How do you do that, anyway?
IF they had tossed an explosive INSIDE, blowing the door OUT, wouldn't we be hearing about those EVIL ISRAELIS THROWING EXPLOSIVES INTO THE CHURCH OF THE NATIVITY??

i'd agree with you except that it's possible that the courtyard is surrounding by nothing more than a gated wall.  it might not be an interior courtyard surrounding by sections of the church itself.

if the Israelis did indeed blow the door, they could have been outside the wall, and the door would have blown INTO the courtyard.

it's possible.

That's not what the pictures in the paper show.

You should see some of those Isreali sniper instructors- you'd be motivated too! [;)]




(ETH had posted some pics of one or two *very attractive* female instructors... maybe he can find them for us?)

Post from ckapsl -

[:D] That's what I'm here for - to end your confusion!

Why indeed?

I would imagine that he missed his intended target and that any innocents that are/were killed represent simple mistakes.

Such as US subs sinking Japanese 'Hell Ships' full of Allied POWs in the Pacific during WWII.

The US subs meant to stop Japanese transport of [u]Japanese[/u] troops and war materials, not the transport of Allied POWs!

[u]Had[/u] the US subs' commanders known the true identity and nature of their targets, would they have fired their torpedos?

In a word - No!

The famous Allied bombimg of the railroad marshalling yards in Dresden, unaware that 500 Allied [u]airmen[/u] POWs were in railroad cars in those yards.

[u]Had[/u] the US and British air war commanders known that those 500 Allied POWs were located in railroad cars in the Dresden marshalling yards, would they have halted the bombing until at least those particular cars had left the area?

In a word - Yes!

Approximately 5,000 (!) Afghan civilians have been killed by the US bombing campaign in Afghanistan.

Do you suppose that the US military command would have rather had bombs falling on the heads of (a) Taliban/Al Quaeda forces, or (b) innocent civilians?

Hmmmm?

So do you think that IDF soldier wanted to kill (a) a terrorist threatening the safety of Israeli families, or (b) an innocent Palestinian child threatening nobody?

Eric The(ClassDismissed!)Hun[>]:)]

Very scary, garandman.

So kill the children because SOMEDAY they might become soldiers.  That is how savages think.  Is that how you think?


So those little children killed by suicide bombers deserved to die, huh?  Just a little payback.

If you can't see the difference between the suicide bombers and the IDF....

Moral relativism, once again garandman.

Well, I've been reading these Palestinian - Israel debates for the past few days, and I just can't resist it anymore.

The Palestinians are a bunch a freakin cowards. Hiding in a church, esp that church, is plain chickenshit. That's how the operate though, always willing to put bystanders in harms way. Why didn't they hide in our of thier own mosques?  

Bastards, I hope they all get wiped out.  They hate us, I hate them.  It's that easy for me.

If you knew ANY history AT ALL, other than the ETH Propaganda Channel (in Eric's defense, he's just the broadcaster, NOT the originator of the proppaganda) you would realize ....

...that in your OWN scenario above -

Arabs = B

and

Israel = A.

It was the Hebrews who INITIATED war in that region, coming into  a land where they had NEVER been before, whose inhabitants had already been there 1,000 years, and STARTED the fighting.

Man, the publik skuul sistim is gonna be the destruction of America.

Really?  Wow, I suppose Jews had never lived in Jerusalem, built a temple there, had a King named David?  

Wow.  I guess the publik skuuls are bad.

That comparison is DISHONEST in the extreme. It should read "the difference between suicide bombers and an IDF soldier (potentially) [b]INTENTIONALLY aiming at an innocent and pulling the trigger..."[/b]

And NO, I can't see the differnce, just as the families of the victims on BOTH sides CANNOT see the difference. They are ALL just as dead.

Both acts are acts of war. War is hell.

Both acts are atrocious and horrendous in the extreme.

And unfortunately, both acts are likely necessary if we ever are gonna have peace in the region. Even Rush (in defense of Israel says it) ALL OUT WAR is the only answer. No holds barred. total victory by one side. Total defet by the other.

The only differentiation I see is in you - that its OK for Israel to do these things, but not for the Paletinians.

And I cannot see that THAT is anything but hypocrisy.

Yeah, that's some of that "lone gunman" type stuff.  He must be related to Oswald. [:D]

God Bless Texas

hummm...collateral damage

Hello???? McFly????


Back BEFORE David - how do you think they got INTO the land????


Ever heard of a guy named Joshua (son to a guy named Nun), who brought the fledgling Israeli nation INTO Palestine, and STARTED the hostilities?????

Yikes.

Garandman, that is outright crap and you know it.  There were Jews living in the lands of the Ottoman Empire long before WWI.  That includes the lands of modern Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq.  In the census of 1890, there were only 100,000 Muslims in the area that is now Israel.  It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire gave a tax break for all Muslims to move to the area that the Muslim population of that specific area increased.  So how does 100,000 in 1890 equate to millions 112 years later that "had already been there 1,000 years...?"  Sorry my friend, but your talking from your southern orifice on this one, and you should know better.

In this latest round of attacks it was the Arabs who instigated the violence against the Jews!  There were few spats of violence between Jews and Arabs in the areas of the Middle East between the 16th and 20th centuries.  Who instigated the riots of 1929?  It certainly wasn't the Jews running around rioting while mutilating and murdering men, women and children.  When the UN Mandate was approved that founded Israel, who attacked them almost immediately?

Where are you learning your history, Garandman?  And by your own line of thinking, my Hispanic and Indian brothers should be bombing and killing our way across North America because we're the only ones that belong here!  Or am I missing something?

God Bless Texas

[editing to clarify some things]

"This is SteyrAUG of the ETH Propaganda Channel reporting LIVE from nowhere near the incident.

We have it on good authority this morning that somebody, who knows some who is Jewish, but also saw the incident on the internet, has secretly released the following details.

-The "so-called" preist was ACTUALLY a covert pro Palestinian operative ringing out [b]SPECIAL CODES[/b] that signalled coordinated suicide bomb attacks. Since Israel has effectively cut ordinary lines of communication, these TERRORISTIC BELL RINGERS are the new PLO secret code.

God is great, Israel is great HOORAY!"

Back to you Eric.

Maybe you came from that "publik skuul sistim" Garandman.

It's impossible for "hebrews" to start anything because Hebrew is a language.

The fact that Jews NEVER lived in that land is something that you affirm despite ALL history book (except the ones of your "skuul sistim") affirm the contrary: Jews are strongly linked to Israel/Palistine. They've been there even during Crusades times, and before the Aliyot.

The presence of the Arabs was due to the dissolution of the Roman Empire and the conquest of the land by Arab people. With Suleiman they repelled Cristianity OUT of Palestine. So also arabs are conqueror and not natives as you stated.

You're right when you affirm that YOUR skuul sistim is going to destroy America, especially when produces people like you.

Shalom!

Uhmmm, have you checked the numbers?  Since the beginning of this latest intifada, there have been MANY more Palestinians killed than Israelis.

Learn history. Palestine at Joshua times didn't exist. Palestine was a name invented by Romans to name this region. The real name was Cana'an.

Someone throwing a rock at an armed soldier makes you innocent?  I alwayst thought the appropriate word was "stupid."  Hell, at least when Israel decides to blow something up it gives the PA a fair warning to evacuate well beforehand and then only go for PA targets.  The suicide bombers certainly haven't given the Israeli people that luxury.

Also, it bears noting that this latest 'infatada' started after Arafat and the PA refused a deal that would give then 95% of the areas they wanted, including an area of Jerusalem.  After they refused the deal, Arafat instigated this infatada, and my personal opinion is that he thought martyring his people would give him a better political position.  I think he was wrong, as he sits under an IDF tank.

God Bless Texas

[edited to add some content I forgot to include before hitting submit]

Not to mention that Jordan currently sits on more "Palestinian" land than Israel does, yet we don't see Hezbola or Hamas suicide bombers blowing things up in Jordan, nor do we see the Jordan Monarchy offering to give them land.  Funny how that works, right?  Oh, but I forget, this is all Israel's fault, at least according to garandman.

God Bless Texas

That is the EXACT same thing I heard from a peace activist in NYC, who said that there was NO DIFFERENCE between the deaths in the WTC, and the deaths we are inflicting in Afghanistan.

Practically word for word.
Exact same brand of moral relativism.
Grotesque.
If this sentiment is true, then there is no moral difference between a murder and an accidental death, ever.

The Israeli definition of a "militant" runs the gamut from a Palestinian armed with an AK to a teenager armed with a rock.  Since when is it okay to fire on rock throwers with live amunition?  So anyway, what were you saying about moral differences?

If you're a soldier, and someone fires a gun at you, you fire back.

If they advance towards you, only with rocks and sticks, should you retreat??

A modern army can be defeated by a stick wielding mob?? (a mob hoping to get shot at, to capitalize on the propaganda front)

If this is so, war just got cheaper.
No more guns, just sticks and a few teenagers whom you've convinced are worth more dead than alive... (and some highly paid spin doctors).