After lengthy debate with Eric and Armlbrl I just gotta ask.

Now, I know most of the bad stuff about Israel. And as a result I'm not too fond of them or our parasitic relationship.

But what are the benefits of sending them BILLIONS of our tax dollars? Just what the hell did we buy?

Has Israel even done anything to assist/protect the US from terrorism since 9-11? Or was the day of mourning all we got?

The last thing I remember Israel doing was something about taking out a nuclear power plant being built in Iraq. Of course it was in their best interest to do so, they didn't do it only for our benefit. And sure I wouldn't mind financially kicking in on that thing. But I'm sure WE paid the entire bill.

So just what makes Israel so damn useful?

It helps us all never to forget the Nazi Holocaust and the billions of dollars in grants given gives us a clear conscience that we aren't anti-semites.

[url]www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm[/url]

"Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. tax payers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. [b]This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.[/b]"

Steyr, let me let you in on a little secret.

The reason WHY the US has to care about Israel.

Is that WE created it. We were responsible, we convinced what was left of European Jewery that they had no other option.

Cause we barred the entry into the US of Jews in 1937. When Hitler was still willing to just let Jews get out, before he decided they were more valuable as slave labor.

They remembered this after the Holocaust. Sure the survivors were glad we resuced them. But it was our fault for not letting hundreds of thousands of Jews escape before they needed rescue. Because of this, they came to the realization that there was NO extant country in the world that wouldn't sell them out if they saw fit. They had to go and make a country where Jews would be in the majority, and where they would have control.

Fortunatly, Eric would probably say "Providentially", Britain decided that it had to withdraw from holy land at that time. This created a power vaccume that they could exploit, in a area that was close to Europe, that was sparsely populated, where they could at least argue a historic claim to the land, and where Zionists had been trying to settle for much of the 20th century.

But if we HAD been receptive to any Jews that could get to us here in the US, most Jews would have realized that we had done all that we could short of war to help them, before Hitler clamped down. The message of the Zionists would not have been so strong. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten enough immigrants to start Isreal. Who knows?

That must remain speculation, what happend happened and cant be changed. We are stuck with the results and have to police the mess we helped to start. But this is why America has to take care of Israel.

Oh and the Europeans owe the Jews a lot too, they were not above selling out their Jewish neighbors during the war. Nor were they very helpful in trying to resettle them after the war. There WAS a reason why so many people in the DP camps chose to go to Israel and the unknown instead of back where they came from. They didn't want to ever see the faces of the people who had sold them out or refused to help them ever again...

Unlike America, Europe refuses to own up to what they did to the Jews, and prefers to blaim it all on Germany...

Here, this was the largest and most public case of the US turning its back on Jews escaping Hitler. The case of the SS Saint Louis.

[url]http://www-personal.umich.edu/~froomkin/texts/m3.html[/url]

[url]http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/voyage.html[/url]

And people wonder why Israelis don't trust us completely?

Shit like this is also why so many Jews decided that they could only feel safe in a state run by Jews.

Unfortunately they cant, because most other muslim countries will refuese to help if we call in the Israelies.

Unless we want to just throw the gloves off and fight all the Islamic world at once..

Unless we want to just throw the gloves off and fight all the Islamic world at once..
Might as well get it on and get it over with cause thats where we will eventually end up.

odobo wrote:

????????????????????????????????[%|]

What?

They've been fighting the bastards DAILY for decades!!!  [heavy]

Tate

[img]http://www.auschwitzluege.de/pictures/auschwitz_1.jpg[/img]

I wonder if the Israelis will use the same motto on the gates of their future "Terrorist" eradication camps.

Why do you care so much about What Israelis are doing to the Palestinians and you are not caring at all what ARABS are doing to the Palestinians (and what they did...)?

All this attention seems a little too much biased...

Well I'm not Arab, I'm not Palestinian and I'm not Jewish. My point of view comes from looking at both sides equally and leaving room to question myself.

And I am not giving "all this attention" as you say it, I am voicing my opinion so that people will at least realize that there are two sides to what is happening in Palestine and to stop equating a hatred for anyone who so much looks like a 9/11 terrorist with the people of Palestine.

Oh... and what about victims of Palestinian kamikazes attacks against civilians?

I guess it's a demostration of how civil and fair are those "Arab Freedom Fighters"...

Btw, Do you know that the spiritual leader of the young Usama Ibn Laden was a palestinian Ulema...? (Too bad I forgot the name...)

And guess who was dancing in the streets for the joy when heard about 9-11?

Hatred against palestinans? I want only that they have their shitty state and live as they want without bothering me.

[peep]

You guys are going to give ETH a headache...

[peep]

Gee, for all those Billions of dollars in aid, they hired Jonathan Pollard to SPY on us. I would have cut funds right then and there,, someone refresh my memory, what did we do about that give them a token slap on the wrist.. Then there is the Kosher tax that we all indirectly pay, so they can blackmail the food companine, to pay them to put their u with a circle around it, or the k on the label of practically all food you buy,, just pick up anything in the grocery store and see if you don't find this somewhere on the label, If I owned a food company, and they wanted to put this on, if they wanted to pay the small added expense to have it added to the label the next time, it would be ok....But they want you to pay them big bucks to LET them give you their permission to use it... Reportedly 20 years or more ago Coke paid over six figures to one of the Rabbinical organizations for this..and they are what, 2-4% of the population over here.. so why do companies do it,, suddenly distributors, grocery chains, etc.. don't carry your brand...

Ok, for the slow people, both the palestinians and the Israelis kill civilians and thats why they are [size=6]BOTH SHIT[/size=6].

With some small minded dimwitted fools its always down to "Israel can do no evil".

Wake the fuck up, they are both evil and frankly if they where all to die tomorow, it wouldnt change anyones lives, except the [size=5]SURPLUS OF CASH[/size=5] you guys would have to fight terrorism or make your schools better.

Kill them all, shove them all in ovens or turn them all into bars of soap so that kids in pakistan can clean themselves. They have been guilt tripping the whole world to get money and public approval.

I see that the propeganda in the USA is so good that it has you all chanting Israel.

Wake the fuck up people, not everyone wants all their tax dollars going into backwash bullshit countries.

Once someone becomes my friend, I do not sit down and count the cost of that friendship on a day-to-day basis.

If my friend ever gets in trouble, I do not first ask him - What have you done for me lately?

It is sufficient that I consider him my friend,
and that he considers me his friend.

I do not quibble over stupid stuff like that.

There are plenty of countries that the United States gives money to, who are not our friends.

We even support (albeit not as much as asked) the United Nations, and they are certainly not our friends.

So if we began cutting off funds to countries who act against the US, who are not friends with the US, who do not support us in our foreign policy....

Well, Israel would be the last man standing.[:D]

I'm going to dig deeply now into the 'Eric The Hun's Zionist Treasure Trove' and find some genuine pro-US stuff that our friend Israel has 'done for us lately.'

Please bear with me while I go and fetch it!

Eric The(Laboring)Hun[>]:)]

Friend? When your friend steals your stuff, do you say "here is some more money"? (Israel stealing nuclear secrets)

When your friend kills a bunch of your familly and responds by saying "woops", do you stay friends? (USS liberty)

When you friend comes into a house and says "hey this is my place cause I once had familly in this house" and starts killing the occupants, do you stand by giving him even more money?

Israel is no friend of anyone unless large sums of money are comming from them.

EricTheHun I'll be your friend aslong as I can keep one hand on your wallet and another over your eye's.

Another "freethinker" from Canada... tsk tsk...

Israel is our ally.
We support and defend allies and friends.
If we don't, it shows a lack of character.
It demonstrates weakness.

It shows the world that if you carry out terrorist bombings, and terrorist threats, we will buckle and change our policies.

Being THE super power is a job with many responsibilities.  

Here's my very first post from the very first time SteyrAUG questioned US alliance with Israel (from 7-22-2001):


Maybe so, maybe so. But I remember a time when Iraqi scud missiles were raining down on Tel Aviv and throughout Israel, when Israeli citizens were in bomb shelters and affixing gas masks upon their children because of Saddam Hussein's proclivity to use poison gas upon unarmed citizens. It was not Israel's war, but it was their civilians at risk.

But this was not a weak, unarmed, and undefended country whose citizens were being subjected to the possibility of chemical and biological attack by Scud missiles. This was a nation possessed of the finest air force in that part of the world. The Israeli Air Force has proven itself more then the equal of its hostile neighbors combined!

Israel's decision NOT to retaliate against Iraq for its launching of the Scud missiles against it was something that ONLY a trustworthy and valiant Ally would ever agree to do! If they had decided NOT to follow the United States' request, the 28 nation coalition would have evaporated as quickly as it came together. No Arab nation would have risked the humiliation of attacking a neighboring Arab nation at the same time that Arab nation was being attacked by hated Israel! Governments would have fallen!

Do you remember the Israeli Air Force's attack on the Iraqi nuclear plant at Osirak in 1981, that brought a crippling halt to Iraq's nuclear dreams?

Had Israel not attacked and destroyed this site, would the Coalition Forces of Desert Storm have even been able to come together for the purpose of opposing Saddam's Invasion of Kuwait?

So Israel made the Gulf War possible by (1)ending the nuclear threat of Iraq ten years earlier, and (2) not exercising its undeniable right of retaliation when it was attacked by Iraq during the Gulf War.

Now that's an Ally and a true friend of the US! Don't worry, Israel will be around the next time we need its help as well.

Regarding Pollard - You mean you think that WE don't spy on Israel? Can they help it if they're even better than us in this respect?

Eric The([b]BlessIsrael,BlessUS,CurseIsrael,CurseUS[/b])Hun[>]:)]

Oh. OK.

Then I got a real simple solution - let's UN-CREATE Israel.

There. Problem solved.

Let's eat.

Good answer Hun, keeps me out of it. Maybe we should count the bodies left us by region there for the past 30 years and see who our allies are. It is all pretty ugly, but it seems isolationism has never worked for us.

I swore I wouldn't get into anymore Genera Discussions, just stay in the gun forums,, oh well..First let me say I am NOT anti-Jewish, nor am I Pro..Met a guy 20 years or so ago who was a retired Lieutenant Commander or so , from Naval intelligence... something had really soured him on Jewish people, told me the biggest problem , was that the average Joe, thought that the Jews were Gods chosen people, etcc.. Told me that no where in the Bible does it state this,,,That a certain tribe of Israelitites, the decendants of whomever etc.. were the Chosen ones, and that if you traced their migrations down thru history etc.. that they settled in Europe.. Just because someone who lived in Israel thousands of years ago were in favor, doesn't mean that whoever is there now are... backed up this stuff with scripture, etc...Just wasn't that interested at the time, to write it down.. He asked me where all the gold that used to be in Ft Knox was now,, then told me.. How our money used to be backed by gold , now what is it backed by,, who owns all the text book manufactures, controls Hollywood, and all the media,, made some interesting points, that just keep me interested slightly

It does seem that we bend over backward for Israel a lot of the time.. and I hate to see them using live ammunition on kids who are throwing rocks,, and yes the other side kills innocents to a higher degree, which I strongly condemm both sides when they knowingly do this, I will read earlier post to this thread about the pre-WWII incidents, because I thirst for knowledge of the truth.. The old guy who gave me all this info died about a year ago. I just kind of brushed him off as an extreme anti-Jew,, which I have no hate for any one group of people, but I see a lot of the things that he told me about comming into play. And it just makes me wonder... People do seem to have the attitude like Scarecrow said that Israel can do no wrong.

Finally, some sanity!

I wonder if God has ever thought that about us , assuming he thinks about such things. That could really solve a lot of problems, and there would be no need to eat.  :)

Blessing America? You think God's been blessing America over the last 30 years of our ever increasing allinace with Israel??

Where have you been over the last 30 years???

Lemme refreshed your pro-Israel colored memory....

Viet Nam (59,000 dead - for NOTHING)

USS Liberty (even if you do call it an accident)

Abortion (millions dead)

School shootings (our kids are killers)

Bill Clinton ( God gives a nation the leaders it DESERVES)

AIDS (the body count has ONLY just begun)

Sept. 11 (yeah, it was a wake up call from God. Read the OT and tell me otherwise)

God is judging America for something. NOT for alliance with Israel, but certainly our alliance with Israel has curried us NO favor with God.

So did he say that the Jews stole the gold out of Fort Knox? [>:/]

What country, then, is MORE "blessed" than ours?

The world is, was and will always be filled with trouble and pain.
That's life.

Enjoy.

There is no God. No one is being blessed.

If there was a God, then why did God let Hitler even be born? Why dint God try to save the Jews from the camps? Why did the allies have to do it? Why did God let so many assasination attempts on Hitler fail even when the bombs where blowing up right next to him? Seems to me the guy was being protected by God so much he was only able to finally die by his own hand.

Truth is there is no God, life can be created in a lab, and religion is the only thing standing between the human race and being God's ourselves.

Once more, a little something from the Hun's Chest of Zionist Propaganda, a post I made on 02-26-2002, regarding Israel's support of US in the United Nations:

Forgive me, for only BOTD threads should go so long!

But I came across this little factoid that some of you might appreciate. Maybe not.

'But Hun, how can you say that Israel loves the United States? How can you say that it's next on your list of beloved nations?'

Even above Great Britain? Surely not?

Well, direct from the US Department of State,
the following:

[b]Who Votes With the US in the General Assembly?[/b]

[b]The year 2000:[/b]

Micronesia 100.0%
[b]Israel 96.2%[/b]
Albania 85.3%
Uzbekistan 81.8%
Marshall Islands 73.9%
United Kingdom 71.7%
Bosnia/Herzegovina 70.6%
Canada 66.0%
Latvia 71.4%
Estonia 65.3%
Germany 64.8%

[b]The year 1999:[/b]

Micronesia 100.0%
[b]Israel 90.0%[/b]
Uzbekistan 80.8%
Bosnia/Herzegovina 76.2%
United Kingdom 75.8%
Marshall Islands 74.5%
France 73.4%
Monaco 72.6%
Estonia 71.4%
Germany 70.1%
Hungary 70.1%

[b]The year 1998:[/b]

Micronesia 100.0%
[b]Israel 94.1%[/b]
Uzbekistan 90.9%
Marshall Islands 81.6%
United Kingdom 74.5%
France 73.6%
Monaco 73.1%
Estonia 69.2%
Turkmenistan 68.2%
Latvia 67.9%

[b]The year 1997:[/b]

Micronesia 100.0%
[b]Israel 93.3%[/b]
Bulgaria 81.1%
United Kingdom 79.4%
France 78.3%
Monaco 77.6%
Norway 77.6%
Marshall Islands 74.4%
Uzbekistan 74.4%
Luxembourg 74.2%

(Source: U.S. State Department.)

So Israel beats by a wide margin any other of our so-called allies in Europe.

Eric The(AndIfThisDoesn'tCount,WhyBotherToEvenVote?)Hun

So there you have it folks, Israel never votes less than 90% of the time with the United States!

What are friends and allies for?[:D]

Eric The(I'llBeBack)Hun[>]:)]

MoparLou -

You really like Mopars?? [:D]

What you are describing sounds alot like "British Israelitism." If so, I have a few problems with that.

My reading of Scripture indicates that Israel is made up of all people, or all nations, of all time, that have trusted Jesus Christ as Saviour, either looking forward to him in time, or back at the crucifixion and resurrection, and beleiving in faith.

I could barrage you with Scriptures to this effect, but I'll spare you that.

If your acquaintance was in Naval Intelligence and soured on Israel, I'd bet dollars to donuts its cuz he knows the truth about Israels deliberate attack on teh USS Liberty. See the website created by teh survivors of that israeli attack on a US vessel in international waters in 1967 here [url]www.ussliberty.org[/url]

What does Israel do for "us"
Who is "us"
FDR the great commie prez and his lesbian first lady?
Bill Clinton... alleged druggie?...alleged rapist?...alleged traitor?
Who are our friends and trading partners? Communist China...Russia?
Where have our immigrants come from the last ten years... KGB GRU Afghan War Spetznatz veterans...
Not to mention the Peanut farmer letting in Cuban criminals and his own agents.
If Israel sent in spies, especially under Clintons watch (gutting CIA, FBI, the Justice Dept deleting terror watching from the menu) who could blame them
if they spied on Clinton they did "us" a favor...imo of course...
China has a vested interested in the middle east and is moving missles up to threaten Taiwan...what a great opportunity for them...US occupied in Middle East while the pacifists at home ..well brainwashed in their Universities and High Schools since Vietnam...want no part of a real war with real dead and and wounded..will look the other way...
I guess the real question is...do we sell out Israel in favor of the rags...
for oil of course because that is all this is about to some if not most.
And face it ..the USA runs on oil and gas...our economy..our country will cease to exist without cheap oil and gas...without cheap oil and gas we will hit anarchacy quite quickly..and its consequences...
However once we give in to these terrorists...appease them...they wont stop there...they have a religous agenda...to holy war....a solemn duty to kill every Jew in the world and every Christian...(of course if you arent either who cares?) problem is they see non-belivers as infidels as well.....
They wish to take over..they have moved into the US and began buying up our land..businesses...building mosques and private moslem schools where they educate their children teaching them to kill us in order to spread the holy word of the Koran and put us all under the bitter thumb of Mohammed..
We are gonna have to fight these bastards sooner or later ...it may as well be now imo...its gonna be messy and its gonna be bloody...
The other choice is peace...but this can only happen under IRON RULE...
Occupational govt...under the UN who is poorly disposed to rule imo
for if it is fair for the UN to rule any soverign nation than it is fair for it to rule the world..

Renamed,, this was 20 years ago,,He mentioned the Federal Reserve,, told me it was NOT a govt organazition,,that the head of is appointed by the President, etc... I really don't remember now,,Like I said he was an extremeist, and I am Not ANTI anybody, just he brought some things to my attention that thru the years I have remembered.. I swear I'm not going to get involved in any more of these discussions,,just set back and read occasionally..

Post from garandman -

You simply don't know that. All of the ills that you spoke of could be a whole lot worse except for the prayers of a remnant of believers.

Remember, how God once spared Israel -

'Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.'
I Kings 19:18

For the sake of 7,000 true believers, the Lord spared Israel.

Cannot the United States be spared for 7,000?

I look at our history and am amazed by the close calls we've had with catastrophe, but I always thank God for seeing us through.

And, yes, I truly believe that we have been and will be blessed by our friendship with Israel one day.

It is the 'righteous' thing to do.

And you know how our Lord values 'righteousness.'

Eric The(Semi-Righteous)Hun[>]:)]

Small price to pay for a really mean GUARD DOG.
I respect Israel because third world shitholes(read most of the middle east) are scared of them.  They will not back down and do not concern themselves with public opinion.  They can do things on the World Stage that we could not bring ourselves to do.

GarandMan,, yes my other passion,, I have a 70 Go-Mango orange T/A Challenger clone,, Hensley 440 powered,, drive 17miles one way to Bristol and run low 12's on street tires thru the exhaust.. well almost street tires,, BFG drag radials.. they are DOT approved

I know of some Jewish Americans who consider Israel the equilvalent to Vatican City to Catholics. This may be a stretch for some to understand this. I am Catholic and I know if someone terrorized Vatican City I would start the Crusades over again and bring death to the invaders.

God bless Micronesia. [:D]

The sun always shines in balmy Micronesia....

NO QUESTION God has blessed us as a nation. But His favor was curried BACK WEHN we were obedient to Him, satrting with the Founding Fathers, and ending shortly after WW2.

Blessings received now are RESIDUAL - from when we used to obey Him. Abortion, homosexuality, heterosexual promiscuity, a marked increase in profanity and taking His name in vain, and a whole host of other sins have brought God's judgment on us.

Our support of Israel is NOT a sin God is judging us for. My point is that our support of israel SURELY hasn't shielded us from the judgment of God, the evidences of which I listed above.



LOL!!! A "well-stocked" warchest I might add.  [:D] LOL!!!

ETH, how can you say "I don't know that" about God's judging us. WHO CARES if the judgment is "less than it might be" and misses the WHOLE POINT anyway. You said "Bless israel, and God will bless us." HE IS NOT blessing us. He IS NOT, even tho we are blessing Israel till we bleed. You assertion that blessing Israel will bring God's blessing to us is thereby debunked.

God doesn't bless AND curse a nation AT THE SAME TIME. Scripture tells us "A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." Same is true for God.

The blessing and the curse of God are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

Wow, you sure know a whole lot about God, huh?
Does He send you E-Mail updates, or something?

Ayyy-mayan, brotha!!!!!!!! Kin I git me a witness???? Hall-le-lu!!!!

Bring in the snake handlers!!!!

[:D]

WOW!!! It doesn't look so BAD! [}:D]

Heh, heh..."residual blessings".

I sometimes wonder how GOD feels about all the killing over the years in HIS name ?

LOL!!! [:D]

Nah, He sent me only one "e-mail" but MAN was it a good 'un!!!!!!

Consider John 15: 15 -

"No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. "

This was Christ speaking to His disciples, and by implication ALL beleivers.

God wants YOU to know what He is doing also.

I don't understand WHY God wishes to reveal Himself to man, but there is NO question from Scripture that He does.

I'm thinking God may not be very happy as he gave us Clinton - TWICE.

Your request is irrelevant, as I have   ****NEVER*****stated that our association with Israel is CAUSING the judgment of God.

Please read more carefully.

I'll state my point YET AGAIN -

ETH made the assertion that if we bless Israel, God will bless us. Well, we have blessed Israel. Only an intentionally blind man could assert that the USA is now NOT under the judgment of God - as I stated above, due to the general rejection of the person of God in this nation. NOT because of our association with Israel.

God is judging us for our sin as a nation, NOT because of, but IN SPITE OF our association with Israel. Therefore, ETH's assertion (that our blessing Israel brings passage into the blessing of God for us as a nation) is BUNK.

I'll NOT state it again.