[size=4]Wave of anti-Jewish attacks hits France[/size=4]
By Elizabeth Bryant United Press International

PARIS, April 1 (UPI) -- A new wave of anti-Jewish attacks hit France over the weekend, capped by the destruction late Sunday of a major synagogue in Marseille.

"This is an outrage," said Emmanuel Weintraub, a leading member of the French Jewish umbrella group CRIF, in a Monday interview with United Press International. "The sort of delirium that's happening in the Middle East -- this sort of madness, we are having here as well," Weintraub said. "Which is absurd, because what does France have to do with what's happening in the Middle East?"

It is not in dispute that a slice of the spiraling Israeli-Palestinian violence has been transplanted to France. Over the past 18 months, dozens of Jewish shops, synagogues, schools and other institutions have been attacked and sometimes destroyed.

French authorities link many of the incidents to ethnic Arab youths, incensed by Israel's hard-line response to Palestinian suicide attacks.

With about 650,000 Jews and about 5 million Muslims, France has the largest population of both faiths in Western Europe.

A March report by France's Jewish student union and the activist group, SOS Racism, counted a total of 405 anti-Jewish acts in France since September 2000. Police say the number is lower.

In January, the Israeli government announced a new package of incentives for French Jews to emigrate to Israel. It coincided with a denouncement by a member of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government France was the most "anti-Semitic" country in Western Europe.

The remark prompted an outcry in France, with politicians and Jewish leaders arguing the country was not anti-Semitic, although they agreed the surge of anti-Jewish acts was troubling.

More violence occurred over Easter weekend, which coincides with the Jewish Passover holiday. Among other incidents, a synagogue in Lyon was attacked Saturday night, as was a Jewish butcher shop outside the southern city of Toulouse.

The doors of a synagogue in Strasbourg were burned, and two Jewish youths were attacked in Rhone Valley region. Late Sunday night, an arson attack razed the Marseille synagogue to the ground.

"Five of the eight Torah scrolls were burned," Weintraub said of the Marseille fire. "According to Jewish tradition, they will be buried this afternoon."

Both President Jacques Chirac and Prime Minister Lionel Jospin condemned the latest wave of attacks.

While anti-Semitism did not exist in France, Chirac said Sunday "there are tensions here or there that are very dangerous, that should be taken seriously, and that demand both prevention and repression without reserve."

Chirac and Jospin, who are running in the presidential elections this month, have both made a crackdown on crime a centerpiece of their campaigns.

Jewish and Muslim leaders also are working together to calm the tensions.

In a telephone interview, Marseille's Grand Mufti Soheib Bencheikh said representatives of both communities had gathered in front of the city's destroyed synagogue Monday, in a gesture of solidarity.

But so long as the violence in the Middle East continued, he said, ethnic-Arab youths in France would likely continue their campaign of attacks.

*               *               *

See article at:[url]http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=01042002-061154-9779r[/url]

Eric The(GodForgiveTheFrench)Hun[>]:)]

I feel sorry for those who are being persecuted for their beliefs-the Jews in this case. It is a damn shame that people the world over who sympathize with the palestinians (terrorist movement) are being held up as activists for the down-trodden when they should be seen for what they are-scum sucking, xenophobic, blood-thirsty bigots. It just amazes me that the religion of Islam is home to such lunacy and yet we are told that it is all about peace and love, yet those who practice it do not OPENLY AND LOUDLY denounce the actions of those who claim Islam, but destroy others in its name.

BYU the (I would fly 10,000 miles to smoke a camel) Stormin Mormon

Hell, the French collaborated with the Germans 60 years ago to persecute Jews, why be different now.  They are afraid that they might have to surrender to the Palestinians if they lift a finger to do anything.

France and Israel DON'T like each other?!?

Now there is a war I can get behind. How do we get this thing brewing?  Is there a place I can send donations? I'd be willing to sell arms to either side!

If we can get these two aholes to wipe each other out, alot of the worlds problems would be gone.

You are one sick SOB.  

SteryAug, why do you call Israel an ahole?

Nah, I just thinnk it is funny that the two biggest pain in the asses for OUR-THIS-MY country don't like each other.

So which one are you in love with, France or Israel? And more importantly why?

And why is Israel a pain in the ass for us?  I understand France being a pain, they have stabbed us in the back every chance they get and have very short memories about who saved their asses TWICE in the twentieth century.

Gee where to start...

The attack on the USS Cole...opps I mean USS Liberty? Bunch of dead US Navy men attacked by Israeli planes and gunboats for a 1/2 hour...nah nobody cares. And besides it was a accident [rolleyes]. And those men on board the Liberty were just liars, even the jewish ones.

Or is it the BILLIONS of dollars the US pumps into Israel with little or no return. Thats your tax dollars and mine going to another country, boys and girls. You think they paid for those M16s they are toting around?

How about the residual flak we receive from backing their ancient goddamn holy war. If we didn't give them a dime the Arabs would probably still hate us, but would focus more on Israel. Bottom line, they are all terrorists fighting a stupid war based upon fairy tales. These people really, truly believe GOD deeded them some land. If that is true, they don't need our help.

Or how about the "can't play" status of out "most important" ally. We have them as our watchdog in the middle east right? Only problem is everytime there is trouble we form some UN coalition which includes "moderate" Arab staes. As a result Israel has to sit it out for fear of pissing off the Arabs. And some guys actually give them credit for their restraint in the Gulf War. Like I'm supposed to give them credit for "not screwing up the whole deal." That is like Jerry Springer parents wanting credit for "not beating their kids."

No it must be the fact that they are NOT a democracy of the middle east. They are in fact the current equivalent of Nazi Germany.

1. Their military/police are ONE. Referrence the SS/Gestapo.

2. They are a Religious/Race based state. All non jews are subclass. Heres a neat idea, replace the word "jewish" with "aryan" and see exactly what kind of policies, laws and practices go on in Israel. Sucks to be there if you ain't jewish. Referrence "Nuremberg Laws."

3. Believe they are the "chosen people" and all others are lesser. Referrence "master race" and "ubermensche."

4. Live on hijacked land formerly know as Palestine. Taken because it is part of the reich...uh...err...holy land. Referrence "Checkoslavika 1938"

But it probably has more to do with supposedly US citizens, Jewish on NonJew alike who put the needs and interests of Israel AHEAD of the United States.

Israel, is fighting our mutual enemy, radical Islam.

Jews didn't hijack aircraft and crash them into the WTC and Pentagon.

Israeli Jews are just as much a part of Western Civilization as Americans, or Britons or Japanese.

The people who are attacking them, and who attacked us, despise everything about Western Civilization. They despise our freedoms, our wealth, everything cause we violate the Koran everyday and yet are showered with blessings while the "fatithful" live in poverty and suffering. But they are too stupid to clean up their own houses and instead are trying to bring us down...

Its sad that you cannot see this.

And Stalin fought the Nazis. Did that make him good? Or were we just in bed with the biggest mass murderer in human history?

Its sad that you cannot see this.

In other words, SA, you just don't like Israel and wouldn't, no matter what the situation, no matter what they had or had not done.  Yes, they were asked to stay out of the Gulf War so as not to stir up the Arabs and screw the whole thing up.  I don't see how you have a problem with that.  The Israelis occupied a land that would still be barren desert today if not for them.  The neanderthal Palestinians would have never done anything with the land.  The rest of the Arab world doesn't care about the Palestinians, they have been kicked out of every country over there because they are trouble makers.  The Arab countries just use the Palestinians as an excuse to justify their hatred of Israel.

The only thing the Israelis could do to please you would be to die.  If you can't see the difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians, it is because you don't want to.  The Israelis have not instigated this current wave of attacks.  A few years ago, they agreed to every thing the Palestinians asked for, including Palestinian self rule of their own state, and were flatly rejected by Arafat.  The Palestinians and the Arab states don't want peace at any cost, they just want to destroy Israel.

Israel does not in any way, shape, form, or fashion compare to Nazi Germany nor does their police/military operate like the Gestapo/SS, unless you consider their dealings with the Palestinian terrorists to be too harsh.  Do you?

The Palestinians are just like the assholes who flew airliners into the WTC and the Pentagon and fully support them.  You seem to be siding with them.  Are you?  Just asking, because I am not sure.

The reasons that you mentioned are the same ones the others who just hate Israel use to try to explain why would we should not support Israel, but they are just covers for the simple fact that some don't like Israel.

What are you, more clairvoyant or smarter than the rest of us?  Ever heard of the Cold War?  No, it didn't make him good nor did the US think he was.  We weren't in bed with him at anytime.  It was convenient to use him to fight the Germans.  It's just a shame that Patton wasn't allowed to push him and his troops out of Europe at the end of WWII.  You are comparing apples and oranges.

If Israel is not a democracy, then why do they let all of their citizens over the age of 18 vote, including approx. 1.5 million Israeli Arabs?

Israeli Arabs vote in Israeli elections?

Yep.

Israeli Arabs sit in the Knesset, the Israeli legislature.

Hmmmm, when did the Nazis allow anyone other than Nazis sit in the Reichstag? After they took control of the Reichstag, were there any Jewish members?

Nope.

Your comparison comes to a screaching halt, SteyrAUG!

Oh, and if the Israelis wanted to be like Nazis, they need only look in their immediate neighborhood to discover a whole lotta Arab countries that really do resemble the Third Reich!

But than God they don't want to act like Nazis!

Eric The(Shame!)Hun[>]:)]

I'm not fond of any police state based upon race/religion. This is why most of their Arab neighbors ALSO suck. But we pretned Israel doesn't.



I don't have a problem with that. I just ain't gonna give them a cookie. "We" did the fighting.



Actually I don't give a shit. Israel vs. Palestine, I'm not cheering for either terrorist team. I just wish we'd quit sending either one of them money/weapons/aid. Those BILLIONS could be better spent here.

And what does this have to do with MY criticism of Israel?



Absolutely NOT true. They kill innocent bystanders, including women and children, by the dozens. And not just in Palestine. Probably one of the reasons the French dislike Israel was Mossadas elimination of a Black September terrorists by means of a car bomb near a sidewalk cafe. Many people, mostly French, were killed in the blast. But I'm not here to cry for dead terrostists.



They fit into a big category of "f*ck them too."



Just because others who hate Israel cite the same reasons does NOT invalidate them.

But again MY main reason is "But it probably has more to do with supposedly US citizens, Jewish on NonJew alike who put the needs and interests of Israel AHEAD of the United States."

I really cannot understand some people HERE, who are more than willing to criticize OUR government when it needs it, but absolutely cannot find fault with Israel no matter what they do.

Eric you know damn well what I refer too and are playing a game of semantics. Elections in a state BASED upon religion/race...hmmm...BIG F*CKIN DEAL. The outcome of elections will be more or less like a Reichstag vote.

Remember when Israel, through their Democratic process, tried to come out of the Dark ages under Rabin? What happened? BANG. Sorry your dead.

Moments later Israel was swaying back and forth with the Orthodox monopoly.

And was that murderer more or less viewed as a religious hero? Not officially no, but when the doors are closed, many admitted he sacrificed himself and Rabin for the greater good of Israel.

I am not one of the ones always complaining about our government.  I don't like some of the laws, but I am not one of the ones who are talking about government conspiracies on every subject.  Those tinfoil hat wearers who think everything is a conspiracy are also some of the worst about blasting Israel and becoming isolationist and are the ones I mentioned who use supposed 'facts' to cover their hatred for Israel.  You know the ones I am talking about.  And yes, because the tin foil hats cite the same reasons DOES invalidate them.  I don't recall you being a tinfoil hat wearer, but I still think you just hate Israel, no matter what, IMHO.

I do not place the interests of Israel ahead of ours, but I think it is in our interests to back them.

What about the thing I mentioned about the Israelis agreeing to everything the Palestinians wanted and still being rejected?

This isn't about some damn ancient religious thing except in the mind of some here on both sides and perhaps some Palestinians.  It's really all about a severe hatred of anything non-Muslim by scum who are held down by their own religion and own actions, kind of like certain portions of our own population who blame their troubles on everyone but themselves.  It's also about the Israelis, both Jew and Arab and as a country, just trying to survive, as the Palestinian suicide bombers don't care who they kill.

What is it you think they should be forgiven for... taking in so many arabs who end up committing crimes against jews... or not being omniscient as to where the arabs will strike?

It was a generalzation, not referring specifically to you.



You ain't spent much time at AssaultWeb have you?



I know a girl who genuinely believes the moon landings were a hoax. She also belives 2 + 2 = 4. How does ridiulous notion #1 invalidate notion #2?



Think as you like, but you are wrong. I have zero agendas. I hold no sympathy for the enemies of Israel. Hypothetically, if we stopped send US tax dollars to Israel tommarow, and people of THIS country stopped putting the needs of THAT country ahead of ours, and elected officials stopped operating in the "interests" of Israel, I would have no beef with the country.

It would just be another backward ass middle eastern hellhole. Wanna know why I DON'T hate Iceland. Because they aren't getting BILLIONS of dollars for nothing. If we had similar relations with Israel I would NOT hate them.

Furthermore, if they actually DID something for our benefit, I would LIKE Israel. Wanna know why I like England? Because, despite the fact that they are anti gun when it comes to their people, they show up and fight when there is trouble. We have very few TRUE allies.



We could simply back them to the extent our allies, like France, back us. Without sending them BILLIONS of dollars and basing US policy on Israel.



Well the offer on the table currently to "recognize Israel if they return to the 1967 border" is being rejected BY Israel. But I really don't care what they do. I don't care about the Palestinians well being any more than the other Arab countries.



If this were anymore about ancient ridiculous religion, it would be called the Voodoo War.

Steyr,

Arafat turned down the "land for peace" deal first back in 2000. Remember? He and Clinton and Barak were togeather.

Now its being brought back by outsiders to try and stop the bombings.

But there IS no way in hell NOW that it has a chance. Israeli public opinion would NEVER allow it. The bombings have proved that even the existing borders aren't secure. And we expect them to go back to even LESS secure positions? Where the Arabs wouldn't even have to use suicide bombers to terrorize Israeli cities, just rockets and mortars...

Not surprised, Arafat is a asshole. Last guy over there with a clue was Rabin and they shot him.



I don't know why outsiders even bother. These dumbasses have been at war for 2,000 years. Wanna know what they will be doing 2,000 years from now?



Said it before, don't care, don't care, don't care. I'm an American, why would I give a crap about Israel? I'm just sick of my tax dollars going there.

I guess the ONLY reasonable solution is FORCED INTEGRATION. You know like several liberals did to OUR country. Why not the same for theirs. If we make the Jews and Palestinians live intermingled and encourage race mixing, as was done in the US for the last 40 years, pretty soon they won't be able to tell each other apart.

Then JAPs can piss off their Rabbi fathers by going on the Jerry Moishevits show with their suicide bomber boyfriend and announce she is pregnant.

Steyr, let me let you in on a little secret.

The reason WHY the US has to care about Israel.

Is that WE created it. We were responsible, we convinced what was left of European Jewery that they had no other option.

Cause we barred the entry into the US of Jews in 1937. When Hitler was still willing to just let Jews get out, before he decided they were more valuable as slave labor.

They remembered this after the Holocaust.  Sure the survivors were glad we resuced them. But it was our fault for not letting hundreds of thousands of Jews escape before they needed rescue. Because of this, they came to the realization that there was NO extant country in the world that wouldn't sell them out if they saw fit. They had to go and make a country where Jews would be in the majority, and where they would have control.

Fortunatly, Eric would probably say "Providentially", Britain decided that it had to withdraw from holy land at that time. This created a power vaccume that they could exploit, in a area that was close to Europe, that was sparsely populated, where they could at least argue a historic claim to the land, and where Zionists had been trying to settle for much of the 20th century.

But if we HAD been receptive to any Jews that could get to us here in the US, most Jews would have realized that we had done all that we could short of war to help them, before Hitler clamped down.  The message of the Zionists would not have been so strong. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten enough immigrants to start Isreal. Who knows?

That must remain speculation, what happend happened and cant be changed.  We are stuck with the results and have to police the mess we helped to start. But this is why America has to take care of Israel.

Oh and the Europeans owe the Jews a lot too, they were not above selling out their Jewish neighbors during the war. Nor were they very helpful in trying to resettle them after the war. There WAS a reason why so many people in the DP camps chose to go to Israel and the unknown instead of back where they came from. They didn't want to ever see the faces of the people who had sold them out or refused to help them ever again...

Unlike America, Europe refuses to own up to what they did to the Jews, and prefers to blaim it all on Germany...

Hmmmm... I see a lot of people bothered because US taxpayers are sending funds (read technology&weapons) to Israel.

I have still to read someone of the above mentioned US taxpayers bothered because:

-USA is giving 150 Abrahams M1A1 to Egypt;
-USA is giving F16 (latest version) to Egypt;
-USA is giving F15 to Saudi Arabia (yes, the same country that gave 13 of the 14 terrorists that attacked WTC);
-USA is fighting against EU competitors to install an advanced radar system in Yemen, (that is the country that hosted USS Cole attackers);

that is that the money of those above mentioned taxpayers is going to people that are against USA for religion, culture and traditions.

I say, you cannot sleep with the devil and pretend that he deludes you...

I have advocated cutting Egyptian and Israeli aid by a proportionate amount for some time (and have posted such). Their warplans still factor in that potential conflict and we are supplying both sides, as part of the Camp David agreement [b]from the 70's[/b]!

Things were relatively peaceful in Israel (and of course on the Egpytian border) for decades before this recent intifada complete w/ suicide bombers (1st intifada late 80s was mainly rock throwers), and reducing it would not have put either side at a disadvantage. Now is not the time, however, but it should be considered in the future.

(Again, so that we are clear: Egypt's military is only needed for "defense" purposes against Israel... not little Libya, or backward Sudan. And while the Israelis are at peace with the Egyptians, their military is stationed for a two front war with Egypt and Syria.)

This isn't about us supplying both sides in a war.  The Israelis and Egyptians are not at war with each other.  It's about a bunch of fanatical Palestinians and their apologists.  I don't see any Palestinian tanks or planes, so the point is moot.

All these 'reasons' and 'facts' are a coverup for those who just plain hate Israel, IMHO.

Well I tried....why do people think that saying well you are just a homophobe or zionists solves an argument? Larry...let's address one thing--
$133.132 billion---that's it--what did we buy?
That is the kind of money for a moon mission, not a guard dog....cut them off and the palestinians are not a problem within a week.

That's right. We give them military aid as a supposed enticement for sticking to the Camp David agreement, and to keep Israel defended versus Syria (a "phony war" to pull a phrase from WW2).



Excellent! Then perhaps they do not actually need the conventional military hardware that we supply them with (and station near each others borders).



Okay then, I guess we agree. No more need to supply them with helicopter gunships. The Palestinians don't have them. The point is moot. Very sensible.



Oh? If I don't want to give my tax $$ to Egypt and Israel (or at least as much as is given - as the amount has been increased over the years, while their proclaimed threat the Syrians have become weaker without free handouts from the Soviets), which we've been doing since the 70's, an amount more than all of desperately poor sub-saharan Africa receives... then I am a hater of Israel, huh? I give up, you've won the arguement! Brilliant!!

Eric [smash]... oh Eric... [>]:)][img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/teach.gif[/img]

Now I am not a great fan of the French, and have gone into detail on this board in the past as to why that is. I do not however understand why you hold them accountable (and to the degree you do) for these acts, when the overwhelming number of them have been committed by arabs. So I will ask again:



What is it you think they should be forgiven for... taking in so many arabs who end up committing crimes against jews... or not being omniscient as to where the arabs will strike?

Normally you respond to your threads, and I can see that you have to the others... Don't be a: [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/monkes.gif[/img]

The French should be forgiven for failing to protect their Jewish citizens from criminal intimidation.  In the US, we have plenty of Arabs and Jews, yet, it is understood that thuggery is to be left behind when entering the country.  People who riot and damage property here (generally) get prosecuted and thrown into prison, if they haven't been shot by the property owner first.

But that is the nature of the French and the European elite classes, to back down from [b]any[/b] aggression, and to vilify those who would stand up to it.

Kevin: Thank you for answering the question. I was interested in hearing from Eric the (God forgive them) Hun, the author of this thread.

As to your points... if you are saying that any government is truly able to protect it's citizens at all times, then you are wrong. Our own 9-11 has been proven useless in many of our major cities. I do appreciate your idealism though. In a perfect world...

If they had some foreknowledge that an attack was to occur at a certain place at a certain time and failed to act on that then you are right. IS that the case?

Otherwise what is it that you suggest? All Arabs in France should get a "good talking to." Somehow I don't think you would find that in line with the obvious civil liberties concerns.

Gendarmes to travel with jews, and stationed outside every synogogue and civic center? I believe there is some of the latter...

If there are any of these vandals/thugs that have been let go when there was evidence against them, please let us know about it. You may have information that I don't.

As to rioters here getting the full measure of the law thrown at them... were you in the US for the LA riots? People caught on tape were let go or were treated leniently when they should have been doing 20 to life. Of course the true fault lay with the city [rolleyes]... for not protecting it's citizens you know (who required millions of dollars in damages)... while the perps got off with a slap on the wrist at best (and were not really to blame!). I don't want to think back to our own Detroit riots...

Post from hound -

Not me, baby! I purposefully accept the term Zionist for myself since it's just shorthand to most folks for Jews who think they need a peaceful place to lay their heads every night.

And if there's any men that I am not afraid of it's homos! So I can't rightly be called homophobic![:D]

First, hound, you need to question the amount that [b]SteyrAUG[/b] used in that other thread - it came from a seriously flawed website run by some very strange folks.

The real number is more likely $80-90 Billion.

Remember, too, that all foreign aid of any kind and type amount to less than 1% of the annual budget, so it's not a grossly out of whack number to begin with.

And Congress has limited the amount of money that can be spent using foreign aid outside of the United States.

If we give Israel $3 Billion this year, it will be spent mostly in the United States, buying weapons built by American citizens in American plants.

Not the 'end-of-the-world' scenario you may have imagined.

Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]

Post from shooter69 -

Simple, my friend.

We have a great number of young Arabs over here in the United States. I would imagine that they have feelings just as strong as any of their brethren in France.

So where are the violent demonstrations in the US?

Where are the anti-Jewish pogroms in our country?

Why just in France?

Because they permit it to be this way, just as we would not permit it to be any other way in our country!

The French have hated the Jews, since, well, way before Dreyfuss!

Eric The(SorryItTookMeSoLongToGetHere)Hun[>]:)]

Shooter,

I meant "failure to protect their citizens" in a general way.  Americans have a respect for law and order in a way that few countries do, and while there clearly have been instances that you mention where law and order have broken down, they really are not that common.

As you are aware, I was not born in this country.  In my experience in growing up overseas, I would suspect that the Arab vandalizers consist of the following groups:
1) A small hard core of diehard troublemakers.
2) A larger softer core of sympathizers and well wishers.
3) The rest of the Arab populace who may not take part in or endorse the attackers, but who are probably not terribly heartbroken about the attacks either.

The first two groups are likely quite small, and if the French were singleminded about maintaining law and order, they would hunt them down, and arrest and prosecute them, until enough of the troublmakers were in prison and the rest decided to stop their activities.  If the political will to make a stand exists, then the vandalizers would simply not be able to withstand continued police pressure.

Witness the RNC convention in Philadephia in 2000 which was targeted by the Ruckus Society, who were in turn shut down by effective police pressure.

France has a sizeable and growing Arab Muslim minority, and a cultural tradition against making tough choices about aggressors, so this outcome is not terribly surprising to me.

America has admitted volatile immigrants for centuries, but has (in my opinion, anyway), required them to leave their political problems behind.  While individual immigrants may become criminals, we rightly don't tolerate their banding together to cause trouble to the community, especially for political reasons.  There are plenty of Arabs and Jews in this country, but we have not seen the kind of stuff that is going on in France.

Eric, that represents the money we KNOW ABOUT. Under your beloved Reagan Administration A LOT of money went places it was not supposed to go. And it was unreported.

And 80-90 BILLION is nothing to sneeze at. Still more money than we give anyone else.



OH BULLSHIT. It is more money than we give to anyone else. It is a shitload of money.



Limited to 3 Billion a year. What a savings to us.



Please cite a source. I would wager that the majority goes directly to Israel. Prove that more than 10% is spent in the US. Here's your big chance.

Post from SteyrAUG -

In Cato Institute's Handbook for the 105th Congress, in the section of foreign aid, the US AID claims that 80% of the foreign aid checks that it writes are written directly to US firms and companies in payment for goods and services purchased by the recipient nations.

See: [url]http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb105-56.html[/url]

I'll keep looking, but in the meanwhile I need your assistance. Please look up for me, the amount of foreign aid received by Great Britain and France on an annual basis from the United States.

That should be interesting![:D]

Big chance? To do what?

Point out that while you carp about Israel, you have no inclination to even mention what other countries may receive?

That wouldn't be fair.

Eric The(WouldIt?)Hun[>]:)]

Excerpt from article at Mandate for Leadership IV, presented by the Heritage Foundation:

"Surprisingly, the largest supporters of America's foreign aid program often are not the foreign countries that receive aid, but American businesses, consultants, and contractors that each year siphon off some 80 percent of the entire foreign aid budget. [b]Out of every foreign aid dollar the U.S. designates to help the poor overseas, 70 cents to 80 cents stays in the United States.[/b]

"AID Administrator J. Brian Atwood takes great pride in pointing out how important America's foreign aid program is to American business: '[W]e certainly have a strong constituency, made up of some of the largest businesses in this country.' He also admits that business seriously influences the budget process: 'In just the last year, a coalition of over 1000 businesses has called for the foreign aid budget to be increased to $18 billion a year.... I think these constituencies have really come together because of the deep cuts that were taken in the fiscal 1996 budget.'  One such group which came to the defense of America's foreign aid program recently is the Business Alliance for International EconomicDevelopment. In a report distributed to Congress in June 1996, the Alliance proudly declares: [b]'A vital factor linking all the components of our foreign assistance budget is that most of the money is spent right here in the United States.'[/b]

"This process has created a powerful lobby in America that obstructs cuts and reforms in the foreign aid program. Many businesses support the program not because they want to help the poor, but because they benefit from it. According to Larry Byrne, Assistant Administrator for Management at AID, 'Ninety-five percent of [AID's] procurement went to a few firms that only did business with AID. They were inside-the-beltway firms that employed former AID staffers.' These businesses are a powerful obstacle to abolishing AID and reforming the foreign aid program."

As I have said, more than 80% of all foreign aid given to any country, never leaves the United States, but is spent directly here.

How are you coming with those figures for US aid to Great Britain and France anually?

Let me know when you get them!

Eric The(It'sOnlyFair,It'sWhatARealAmericanWouldDo!)Hun[>]:)]

The "breaking down" is more common whenever race is involved as a factor. And more people ("activists") are able to "get away with it" then in individual instances.



I see. With the entire world trying to hunt down Osama bin Laden we are unrewarded. We haven't prosecuted anyone yet for the anthrax mailings. I think that you are putting the cart before the horse, holding them to a higher standard, and am also unconvinced that when people feel as strongly as a lot of these lunatics do, that they would be deterred by the arrest of their buddies (especially while the mid-east situation is bombarding them through the media every day).



Are you aware that we had many failures in dealing with "protesters" at conventions and world forums before getting our act together? It also goes without saying that the police have due warning, knowing the time and place that these anarchists will gather (and whom are still treated very leniently). That is not the case for most "hate crimes," (such as the vandalism and arson occuring in France) so your example is not entirely relevant.



We agree about this at least.



I agree with your sentiment, but tell that to the victims of the ethnic gangs which have multiplied with the influx of said immigrants. They are far from broken up. And what did N.Y. Mayor Dinkins do about the Crown Heights situation after the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum? We shouldn't throw stones from our glass castle of perfect policing and crime prevention.

Arabs are not as large a population here in comparison to France where they equate more with African Americans in % terms as the 2nd largest ethnic group. In Marseille (the south,  where many of the acts have occured) they have a HUGE population.

Not the answer I was hoping for. "Because they permit it..." I was hoping for some examples and thought you might have been taking the time to research some up.

Hmm. I suppose we should just not permit other crimes, riots, etc, from occuring, the same way we do not permit anti-semitic acts? Interesting view on crime prevention. You should be the keynote speaker at the next 'Chiefs of Police' convention.

"We just won't permit it..." Has a ring to it!



Adjust that amount for inflation.  As a debtor nation (coincidently starting around the same  time as our aid to them) we were borrowing the money, adding to the national debt, and incurring interest payments which if included would easily *DOUBLE* the final amount again.

Are you in favor of foreign aid in general... or just for Israel? Why don't we raise your taxes and send even more foreign aid to the world's poor? In the grand scheme of things it's not out of whack, right.

Another reason not to:

[url]www.heritage.org/library/backgrounder/bg1335.html[/url]



Not much of a justification... "others receive aid too!" None receive as much, despite being usually more needy. The amount they receive has little to do with need and everything to do with AIPAC. When Israel probably needed aid they didn't get it from us, and when they became a regional military superpower THEN they started getting it, to be even increased over the years.



This site says 4 billion a year! I thought it was three...

[url]www.ncpa.org/iss/int/pd120401c.html[/url]

And then those goods and services are GIVEN to Israel. Still damn near 100 billion going to Israel, NOT to the US.




Don't need to. Already found everything I need to know and posted it on the other thread (page 5).

[url]www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/israeli.elections/stories/israel.us/[/url]

[b]At $3 billion a year, Israel receives more U.S. aid than any other country, and 40 percent of the U.S. foreign aid budget.

Noting that Israel has one one-thousandth of the world's population and the 16th highest per capita income in the world, critics question the aid -- and surprisingly, Israel agrees. [/b]

[img]http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/israeli.elections/stories/israel.us/ultra.orthodox.jpg[/img]



Psst. See above. I did point it out. Once again...

Israel gets MORE US aid than any other country.

40% of ALL US Aid goes to Israel.

Israel has one one-thousandth of the world's population.

Israel has the 16th highest per capita income in the world.

Hun, I'm not quite following you.  Are you saying that foreign aid is OK because 70-80% of it is stolen by US citizens before it gets to the intended recipient?  This is the least non-sensical reason I can come up with; every other possible explanation involves the idea that money and goods/services are somehow not equivalent.

Post from Francisco_dAnconia -

No.

Did you read the article that I cited, or did you just think that I was posting the website for kicks?

The article was from The Heritage Foundation. Do I need to explain what that group thinks?

They wrote the article quoting a director from US-AID. I quoted what that fellow said.

The question was simply, where do foreign aid payments go?

The director said that 70-80% go to American companies.

Need any further clarification? Then read the article, 'cause I can't help you.

Eric The(Serious)Hun[>]:)]

Eric as noted on the other thread, that was a discussing of aid to the "overseas poor."

I seriously doubt Israel qaulifies givent the fact that Israel has one one-thousandth of the world's population and the 16th highest per capita income in the world.

While I belive those figures are accurate for countries like Somalia(who also shouldn't get a damn dime) because their needs cannot be purchased there. Food, clothing and services for [b]POOR COUNTRIES[/b] must be derived from the United States and then sent overseas. This is because most of those countries have no local resources. That is what makes them poor.

Isreal is a much different situation and you know it. They produce their own weapons as well as get them from the united states. They form, train and operate a signifigant military. And you better believe more than 20% of 3-4 BILLION every year is used for that endeavor.

But more importantly, whatever money IS spent on goods and services in the United States is still GIVEN to Israel for FREE. It still costs us the same.

Unless of course you are going to make some kind of ridiculous assertion that "Aid to Israel" creats some cottage industry that benefits the American worker. "Hey Kathy Lee gave them ungrateful sweatshop kids JOBS." Wonderful so now US workers toil for the benefit of Israel, great situation. How about this, what if those same workers did the same job for the benefit of the United States military.

Why the hell are we sending weapons to Israel when our military is in such poor shape?

Sorry Eric.  The statement "but American businesses, consultants, and contractors that each year [b]siphon off[/b] some 80 percent of the entire foreign aid budget." makes it sound like these people are taking the money without providing goods or services in return, hence they would be stealing it.

I know a little bit about the Heritage Foundation, but after reading that I think they need to hire a decent economist.

I'll post a little later to explain better.

Amen!

Atleast someone here has the balls to say that Israel sucks.  The only reason they get our money is because they are the lessor of the evils and are the perfect strategic ally for that region.  

Israel is worthless otherwise.  They are part of the reason that the West is hated, especially since we supported the creation of the israeli nation.  

In your France v. Israel hypo, I'd take France hands down and hope they cleaned up, then maybe we'd get some peace and maybe a nice vacation spot in the religious center of the world.  I'd never visit Israel and bring my money there. NEVER.

Well, [b]SteyrAUG and Francisco_dAnconia[/b], before you start critiquing [u]my[/u] numbers, do you have any response to my question of [u]you[/u] about the amount of foreign aid that the United Kingdom and France receive each year?

I won't even mention the 91,000 active duty servicemen and women that 'hang out' in Germany, and the enormous capital outlays that are expended in that country, adding to that country's GDP, at the expense of US taxpayers!

But I have supplied two sources stating in certain terms that somewhere between 70-80% of all foreign aid is spent, expended, or 'siphoned off' in this country before it sees the inside of a foreign bank.

[b]That's all.[/b]

I make no statement about whether such is right or wrong, cause both of my sources hate foreign aid, I was just pointing out what is said of the economic impact that foreign aid has in our country.

So if no one in your family works for Lockheed Martin, Textron (Bell Helicopter) Industries, or any other defense contractor, you may not have a close family dog in this fight.

So instead of carping and whining as usual about figures I have presented from at least two reputable sources, cite us all some figures that show otherwise, or make certain that your unsubstantiated claims are labeled as just that!

Eric The(Strident)Hun[>]:)]

Asked and answered...

"Don't need to. Already found everything I need to know and posted it on the other thread (page 5).

www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/israeli.elections/stories/israel.us/

At $3 billion a year, Israel receives more U.S. aid than any other country, and 40 percent of the U.S. foreign aid budget.

Noting that Israel has one one-thousandth of the world's population and the 16th highest per capita income in the world, critics question the aid -- and surprisingly, Israel agrees.

[img]http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/israeli.elections/stories/israel.us/ultra.orthodox.jpg[/img]

Israel gets MORE US aid than any other country.

40% of ALL US Aid goes to Israel.

Israel has one one-thousandth of the world's population.

Israel has the 16th highest per capita income in the world."

So it really doesn't matter how much we send to France (anything over $2.75 is too much BTW) or England. The BOTTOM LINE is Israel gets MORE than anyone else. Including France or England.

Furthermore, at least England has SAS in Afghanistan fighting and DYING with US Forces. Where the f*ck is the Israeli Expeditionary Force in Afghanistan? Or at least a Mossada spec ops unit?



And I am sorry, but FUCK YOU. You are going to be critical of US soldiers in Europe receiving pay while at the same time advocating 3 BILLION a year to Israel?  

Post from SteyrAUG -

No, Sir, screw you!

Those soldiers can train and be quartered in this country a whole lot cheaper than they can in Europe, SteyrAUG!

There are states in this country that wish they had 91,000 active service folks and their dependents, and the capital outlays being spent, in their states, employing their citizens, instead of Herren und Damen in 'our beloved Germany.'

There's no more threat for them to remain in friggin Europe! And why Germany, hmmm?

Come home, Yankees, come home!

Eric The(Frugal)Hun[>]:)]

One of the main reasons we still have troops there is so we can react quickly to situations that may arise in the Mid-East. Most of our stuff in the Gulf War came through Germany. Those bases are extremely helpful.

Eric, thank you for the kind words !

Perhaps you might remember one of my earliest suggestions for peace in the middle east was to give the French Israel and the Israeli's would get France.

I understand there would be still be a six-hour war (six minutes of actual fighting followed by 5 hrs. 54 min.. of negotiating the unconditional surrender)between the Palestinians and the the 'new' Israeli's but then peace would reign !