I spoke with a friend in the FBI, who is involved in the anthrax investigation.
He says that the anthrax attacks were DEFINITELY done by Arab Terrorists.
He says that what they've uncovered leaves no doubt.
(He also says he can't elaborate)
Interesting.

Was there ever any real doubt?  Some of the alphabet boys wanted more than anything to be able to hang this on an American.

The coverup has not been seemless on THIS event.  Eventually they will admit that Iraq and Saudia Arabia were heavily involved.  I agree the stuff had a domestic source - the letters were mailed by an Arab in America.  It was grown and treated in Iraq, financed by SA.  Probably delivered by a Saudi.

plausible, especially in light of the revelation that one of the suicide hijackers was treated for strange sores before sept. 11.

I've got to admit I had real doubt.  My pick was a disgruntled current or former government employee.

I remember saying exactly this late last year, and I believe the general response was that I was nuttier than a shithouse rat.  Funny, but I do so love being right.

It makes one wonder if the anthrax letters that were sent in Pakistan and the other country that I can't remember off the top of my head last year that tested positive for Antrhax and then turned up negative later weren't cover ups as well.

But I guess the final question is, why would they cover it up at a time when evidence that the Anthrax was Iraqi sponsored would likely shift support our way.

The reason they keep this on the back burner(at least for now) is because of the predefined response to state sponsored biological attack.  I believe they've shut up about the anthrax because they connected it to al queda AND Iraq.  If Iraq is involved, we have to nuke them, or else the entire history of deterrence is useless.

I have a lot of trouble believing the antrax attacks were the work a foreign terrorist organization.

The purity of this strain of anthrax, we are told, is very, very high. Surely, if these terrorists had the expertise and facilities to make so effective a strain, they would also have developed a means of making it's distribution more far more effective!

It seems, to me, more likely to be the work of some wacko like the Unibomber. Someone who had (or once had) access to the anthrax and was spurred into premature action because (in his/her mind) the opportunity provided by 9/11 was 'too good' to miss.

Well if this is true it really must have suprised them that the Anthrax was not as effective as they thought that it would be.  Also it raises the question in my mind of their overall Battle Plan??? What the hell was it? or Is it?? These are some truly strange people.
 


Benjamin

DINNER TONIGHT INCLUDES:

PORK LOIN CHOPS (BROILED) with Salt/Pepper
--(ITS WORKS THE SAME AS GARLIC ON VAMPIRES)HAH.
-- Really I saw someone post a picture of their
--dinner here one night and he had pork chop
--and I have been craving them for what must be
--4 months now.(Cont.)
Macaronni and Cheese
Baked New Potatoes (Sour Cream and Butter)
French Cut Green Beans
Ceaser Salad
Coffee
Camel Cigarettes (Whats a Meal w/o A smoke afterwards).. Becuase They are the SMOOTHEST, BECAUSE I WOULD FLY 6000 MILES TO SMOKE A CAMEL AND BECAUSE THE TURKS ARE PART OF NATO.

Here's a sidenote to this that you might find interesting:

I live right down the road from the Hamilton, NJ post office, the "source" of this attack.  Well, it is still closed and sealed up tight behind about a million plastic bags.  I drive by this place every single morning on the way to work and it is a grim reminder of what this country is not prepared to face...

Anyway, I have a good friend who is a postal worker at another processing facility in north Jersey.  Apparently, the USPS is caught in a quandry and they don't know what to do.

On one hand, they have a chemical and a cleaning method that "should" sanitize the facility.  However, the contamination is so severe, they would have to treat the entire facility.  The problem is, the chemical is so caustic and corrosive, it will likely destroy millions of dollars of equipment.

On the other hand, the only other option is to bulldoze the entire place and bury it under the earth.  This will most definitely destroy millions of dollars in USPS property.

On the third hand, no one is willing to lease space to the USPS in the area for them to set up a new processing center.  Apparently, there is too much fear of another terrorist attack which is not covered by insurance policies.  Hence, property owners are not willing to be stuck holding the bag.

So, it looks like the Anthrax attack succeeded at one thing: Destroying millions of dollars in equipment and displacing hundreds of employees who now have to commute an hour or more to other processing centers to work every day.

FMJunkie,

I'm not trying to diminish the actual effects of the anthrax attacks (it was certainly effective on those few directly involved). However, given the objectives of a terrorist organization, the way this anthrax was distributed was a real Mickey Mouse affair (no offense M-M).

Just one "suicide distributor" could have killed more than 9/11 on the NY Subway, before he/she succumbed to the desease and have brought the Subway network to a halt for a LONG time.

The same goes for distributuion onboard a plane, especially giving their recirculated ventilation systems: For the cost of a few airline tickets a "suicide distributor" could, again, have killed thousands and virtually shutdown commercial air travel in the U.S. Don't forget, it would be real easy to pass ANY airport security with a few packets of "sweetener" in your carry-on bag.

The costs of decontaminatiing the postal center would, I believe, have probably been unforeseen – and thus the distribution by mail accidentally provided an unpremeditated "benefit". However, In both instances I have highlighted, the decontamination problems you highlight would apply – and how much does a single 747 cost? And in both instances, because of the difficulty of detection, the 'fear factor' that real terrorist organizations seek to promote would linger for a long, long time.

There are far more effective ways of doing this – I have simply hit on the most obvious! But to assume an outfit like al Qaeda could not have done a more effective job is, I submit, somewhat ludicrous. Regardless of what an apparently baffled FBI may say, I still believe this method of distribution has all the signs of a lone, homegrown wacko!

EXACTLY what I was thinking..... IF your 'friend' exists, and IF this is not BS, you are guilty of SAEDA (look it up) violations, and have possibly compromised sensitive information in the interest of national security. [flame]Your divulgance of material of an obviously classified nature on a WEBSITE is not only ignorant, its criminal, and SHOULD be treated as such. I wonder if your 'friend' knows how bad I would like to shut him up for exposing sensitive information, and that you would blab such to the whole world?[flame]

Since 9/11 I have seen more people talking about 'things', that if nothing else, give terrorists (foreign and domestic) ideals. Loose lips sink ships, STFU....

That said, I call BS. IIRC, [url]http://www.tetrahedron.org/news/NR011214.html[/url] was the official unofficial official source of the anthrax.

While we know beyond a shadow of a doubt what organization commited 9/11, let us not forget Timothy McVeigh, single largest terrorist until 9/11, was on of us. Also let us never forget that ALL Afghanis are not with Al Qaida, just like everyone from Michigan is not with Tim McVeigh. Who you are & what you do vs. where you are from.

CavVet,

That was very intense. However, I'm not really clear about what you were trying to say!

Did you get the part about we shouldn't be speculating about the comparative benefits and effects of various different terrorist approaches?  Or is that too difficult?

Did you get the other part about how revealing inside information about what the government knows or doesn't know is a really stupid thing, not to mention maybe illegal?

DON'T SAY THAT!

Don't you realize that it will disappoint Pitcavage (hello mark) that it wasn't domestic and his "organization" won't get as much funding next year?

My "friend" divulged nothing that was classified. He's a professional, and is well aware of what is and is not classified.
I, too am aware.
I asked him if this was public knowledge, and he said he wouldn't have told me if it wasn't!
(I was embarassed for asking...)

Given his status, if he says that it was foreign terrorists, IT WAS.
I'd bet a thousand$ it's true.

Of course, I'm just some faceless guy on the 'net, so believe what you want

Perhaps the intent was just to prove that the terrorists possess anthrax to lend credibility to future threats.  E.g., "Release all the prisoners at Camp X-Ray by the end of the week or we'll spread anthrax in a major American city."

Or, as you suggest, it could have been a small splinter group or even a lone kook.

Al Qaeda seems to have many levels of competence.

9/11 terrorists SEEM to be the top level (or damned lucky).

Then there's the "shoe-bomber".

Further down the ladder are the original WTC bombers (the ones who tried to get their U-Haul deposit back while wearing "I blew up the WTC" T-shirts.)

The incompetent ones are effective, too, in that they make us feel that the threat is not all that.

Has everyone forgotten so quickly that the anthrax attacks were a complete success?  So they didn't kill many people, so they were only a couple letters, SO WHAT?  

The terrorists were able to get people paranoid about opening their mail and had people FREEKED about when the next attack would be and if their mail had touched the contaminated letter!  

When you find mass hysteria and a real threat to the public's health and welfare, it would look to me like the attack was successful.  Considering some of the people died even with treatment, its still in the public's mind that the government cannot cure it quick enough.

I know that in the weeks around the anthrax scare, I wouldn't take the subway for fear of an anthrax attack.  All it would have taken was putting a baggy full of the stuff on one subway car and thousands, maybe millions would have been exposed to it.  I'm not paranoid and I rarely worry about things, but it was a real threat and kept me away.

I would like to believe that the anthrax mailings was the work of foreigners.

However, the unibomber is proof that it could be an American, or anybody.

The anthrax had to come from someone, someplace unique. I or the Hun, for example, simply could not ever supply anthrax. The actual mailings could be anyone, though.

prk – If you genuinely think that the two obvious scenarios I outlined amount to giving ideas to terrorists, then I can only conclude that you have very little imagination. Most 10yr-old kids, could think of those and many other more effective methods than the mail – unless of course, the source was some lone wacko with access to the material but no inclination to die to further his/her cause.

CavVet – I know for sure that if I was some foreign terrorist (or a local wacko, for that matter), I sure as hell wouldn't be persuaded to drop my guard just because of some post on Ar 15 (no disrespect meant Cincinnatus). The changing focus of the FBI has been common knowledge proclaimed throughout the media.

The posts of Minman 72 and Renamed I find inconvincing. Afterall, using this very sophisticated weapon in such an ineffective manner is like buying a $million sniper rifle and throwing it a someone or clubbing people with it! The idea holds true even if it was only a warning or example – makes no sense whatsoever! I mean why not make your warning as effective and dramatic as possible? Why would you hold back after you've just done demolishing the WTC and Pentagon?

The ONLY way it makes sense to me is if the perpetrator had access to the material. but no experience of how to use it effectively and no fellow terrorists to help. He/she simply chose the most obvious and (apparently) untraceable means available and found the events of 9/11 too tempting to miss.

So the scenario would be something like:
1) A military lab made the anthrax.
2) Al-Quaeda bought, stole, or was given the anthrax.
3) One of the terrorists decided to use the anthrax for his own freelance operation.

From what I've been told:
The ANTHRAX is domestic.
The perpetrators are Arab.
The rest will come out soon.

Domestic source for the anthrax?  Of course!  We sold that strain (several actually) all ove rthe world for research.  Gov has admitted that Iraq was one of the buyers.  So Iraqi anthrax would test as domestic strain!!  Just a play on words, thats all.

The rags did it- of that I am certain.  WHich ones is a minor question.  SA no doubt paid the bills, as usual.

[url]http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/100711627612637199.xml[/url]

No, Renamed, it goes something like this:

Homegrown wacko has access to material. He/she takes some and hordes it. It gives them "a sense of power" that they may use against their tormentors (this is a wacko, don't forget). He/she keeps the stuff for months, years, while the hatred festers.

The only obstacle is exactly how to use this sophisticated weapon without detection – it ain't easy. You are alone (and only you know of the injustices you are attempting to redress) and can trust no one, no one! – you are alone!

You cannot engage in some suicide distribution method for you need to remain alive to relish the results. The only method that seems to have any promise is the mail (a la Unibomber). You have the expertise to load a pregnable envolope with anthrax without personal risk. It seems like the only means, but it ain't perfect and you are afraid (like all 'bombers') and so, you wait...until 9/11 – what better opportunity!

ALTERNATIVE SCENARIO:

You are part of some terrorist outfit with sufficient contacts and resources to access this highly refined, anti-static strain of anthrax. Your terrorists masters either produced the stuff themselves (at enormous expense) or they bought it (at enormous expense). It stands to reason that those who would arm themselves with such a sophisticated and expensive weapon would have some means of effectively distributing it. To pretend otherwise is to assume a level of incompetence that is simply unrealistic!

However; you, a somewhat dim-witted individual and steal a handful of this (without contracting any desease) and scoot off to the U.S. and load porous envelopes with the most deadly strain of anthrax known (without endangering yourself) and mail them to the media and government offices.

Think about it? If you wanted to strike panic within the U.S. Postal Service, you would address these deadly letters to as many John Smiths and Publisher's Clearing House envelopes as you could find – NOT just to the to an individual Senate Leader!

I can do without any hysterical  "Loose lips sink ships" responses None of what I have posted is kinda some giant-brain stuff!

Would 9/11 have been a good opportunity or a poor one?  

If a lone, homegrown nutcase were responsible, wouldn't he want the spotlight for himself?  And wouldn't security at the offices of his targets be tightened in the wake of the 9/11 attacks?  

Also, contrast the crude handiwork of the anthrax mailer, who tried to make the attacks look like the work of Arabs, with the excruciating attention to detail and craftsmanship of a known kook like the Unabomber, who claimed responsibility for his cause.  If the object was vengeance against imagined tormentors, why warn them that the letter contained anthrax?  Why give the victims a chance to stop the infection in time with antibiotics?


A half dozen anthrax deaths spread randomly across the country might have been ignored by the news media.  Letters sent directly to people like Tom Brokaw were guaranteed to get their attention.

Yep that's very interesting, Major Murphy! [:P]

DaMan

Alright, I am confused so let me try this carefully.  I thought you were unloading on me but then Cincinnatus jumped in like it was him.  

Let me just state that what I posted is very public, very common knowledge.  Its on the news, in the paper, and there have been protests by postal employees because of the whole situation.  So, while I understand what you are saying, I think its misdirected if its for me.

 This is so unlike the FBI of old.  J. Edgar must be spinning inhis grave by now, at about 6,500 rpm.  Highly sophisticated and highly expensive anthrax, distributed like a 12 year old -  doesn't add up.  Somebody had a security clearance and abused it.  This sounds like a disgruntled former lab employee, who knows how to hqndle the stuff, and not how to distribute it.

Renamed,

I guess you and I might as well agree to differ. For instance: You regard 9/11 as an event that would deminish the anthrax attack – whereas I think it would give him/her a cover, i.e. an international terrorist attack. Don't forget this individual wacko has NO association with the terrorists – he/she just wants revewnge and immunity from detection – what better cover?

The to and fro of this varies with the tide. Currently, Cincinnatus supports your contention. I guess, only time will tell!

I guess that one thing we might agree upon is that the identification and apprehension of this person might be grounds for the reintroduction of the hanged, drawn and quartered form of punishment.

FBI agents don't enage in idle banter and reveal secrets.  I still think it was an inside job and had nothing at all to do with overseas terrorists.  The stuff was too pure and too "weaponized" which is a loaded term, but whatever.

Weaponized is a dubious term at best considering it came from Daschles mouth.  I question just about everything that comes from his orifice.  Just like I Question the need for airport security, or Homeland defense.  Sounds like bad movie jargon (Babylon 5 subplot).  As to who was behind it the presumption of it being an Arab terrorist is not clear.  (Remember the government has no compunction about lieing to the American people)  This did not start in DC -- rather it started in Florida, at a tabloid.  Not what I would consider a "prime target".

There are methods to clean out the post office and render the germ inert. They just didn’t get to it yet.  Bulldozing would only serve to make the germ airborne.

I posted the pic so maybe I can clean it up some. I wasn't refering to the original post, I was refering to what would amount to a more efficient means of delivery. That is what the post is about.  There is a reason that top operational secracy is maintained about weapons programs. So talk of means of spreading death and destruction throughout in a manner that is more efficient is foolish.  It is apparent to me that regardless of who distributed the Anthrax the effects of this method of distribution were far less then what was wanted or acheived. The whole point to a mail system distribution is that it gets on every peice of mail and everything else. It just didn't work that good. So why tell those SONSABITCHES how to do it better.

Ben

Benjamin0001,

I, of course, understand what you are saying – and what you are warning against.

But do you seriously believe that what has been posted on this thread is some novel terrorist technique?

Do you not imagine that Bader Meinhof, Red Brigade, IRA, RAF, Hamas, ETA, Black September etc, ect. has not enough expertise to coach terrorist wannabees. Do you seriously believe that any serious terrorist is sitting on a couple of keys of weapon's grade anthrax, waiting and desperately searching ar15 for tips on how best to use it?

novel , NO.
UNTHOUGHT OF. ????YOU CAN NEVER TELL. And that is the point.

Novel – unthought of?

What's the difference?

 No, of course I don't precieve us as important to them either, but stranger things have happened and the manner in which information travels is never linear. So Joe blow reads the article and mentions it to some coleague and the colleague just happens to mention it to some guy who then goes into seven eleven and tells it to someone else, who just happens to know a Middle Eastern man who frequents his store and starts a conversation with him that ends up being talked about to a Mosque cleric who mentions the idea..... You get the point. Information flows, especially interesting information. GOD KNOWS HOW MUCH I HAVE LEARNED ABOUT MY RIFLE ON THIS BOARD.
I am not upset with anyone , I just was posting the picture to remind everyone THAT WE AIN'T THE DUMBEST PEOPLE TO EVER COME DOWN THE PIKE, AND WITH THE NUMBER OF MILITARY AND PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN THE MILITARY WHO FREQUENT THIS BOARD IT ISN'T THAT ALOT OF GOOD INFORMATION ISN'T POSTED HERE. I come here before I go to NEWS places. Because I know that if it has to do with the war, it will probably end up here before it hits major outlets. I have seen it happen time and time again.  Look at us we are a bunch of Military, Survivalist, GUN AFFICIANDADOES, PATRIOTS, WE SPAN FROM BURGER FLIPPER TO ENGINEERS AND SCIENTIESTS, WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO MAKE $7.00/HOUR AND WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT MAKE Millions right here in this one spot. AR15.com is a great place to come and learn things. Just remember that not all information is needed and the biggest NONO , to my way of thinking, is saying how they could've done it better.  thats all.

Novel would be , to me, Something NO ONE has thought  of before.
Un THOUGHTOF, to me, is what I havn't thoughtof, and therefore what others may have not considered either.

I guess the two terms just imply two different levels to me.

Benjamin

[img]http://www.nypost.com/photos/013002map.gif[/img]

Benjamin

Stcyr,

I don't know who mailed the anthrax, why they did it, or where it was manufactured.  I'm just questioning how well certain explanations fit what little we do know about what happened.

The timing is a key issue.  Does anyone know whether the letters were mailed before, on, or after 9/11?

This is just a guess, but I'd say that regardless of when the letters were mailed, the mailer(s) had the substance in his/their possession PRIOR to the 11th.

However, I doubt that some "lone wacko", just pulled his trusty, jar of refined Anthrax off the shelf, dusted it off and went to work, because of a perceived opportunity brought on by the events of the 11th. That seems unlikely.

That the individual(s) knew of the impending chaos, seems MORE likely.

Mr Benjamin,

2 parts...  First part- I quoted your pic *thinking you WERE referring to the original post, BUT I also crossed over & agreed with YOUR thoughts on discussing certain ideals in here being stupid. It gives people ideals, is assinine, and accomplishes nothing positive. Some things ARE best left unsaid.

Second part- Your last pic post? Seattle has 'Armed Algerians?' ROFLMFAO! Boy are they ever outnumbered! Maybe a million to one? Can you say 'BAD LOGISTICS?'.....

Cincinnatus,

I would agree that the anthrax was on hand before 9/11. However, if this were to prove to be the action of some foreign terrorist cell, I would suggest that prior knowledge of 9/11 (i.e. another terrorist cell) would have been highly unlikely. It goes against even the most basic tenets of security.

Afterall, a simple phone call, internet message etc., could have set the anthrax cell in motion. The ONE THING they would have no prior knowledge of, was the actions of the 9/11 cell – in case they were caught and possibly blow both cells.

Remember that taking out the largest number of people is not the main objective of the terrorist's plot.  The WTC bombings(Plane crashes)  were meant to hit us in the symbol of our financial power.  They didn't even know that the towers were going to collapse.  If they were trying for the highest numbers of casualties, they would have targeted a sporting event.  Also, the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen was probably not the most brilliant piece of work.  It was also a symbolic attack on our military prowess.  It was also disclosed that the early 1990's WTC car bomb had cyanide in it but it was vaporized in the explosion.  Not real smart either.  Just some things to consider when trying to lay the blame.

Two things:  
1.)Wasn't all the anthrax addressed to democrats & media figures only?  If you're a foreign terrorist, why target only the freaking democrats, when the republicans are generally your biggest "aggressor" enemy?

2.)  Al Qaeda in Houston?  Hamas?  Muslim Brotherhood?  I know that these f*ckers were liing all over the place, wierd thing is I still find it hard to believe they can still be here.  Guess us Texas need to be more vigilant. Personally though, if I were a terrorist I'd rather take my chances w/ a bunch of touchy-feely, disarmed Northeasterners, than a bunch of pissed off, armed Texans.  That's just me though.

Because Democrats are easier to scare? [;D]

OK, seriously, that's a good question.  But if the anthrax mailer were some sort of "right wing extremist", why would he target Daschle instead of some of the more obnoxious liberals like Kennedy or Boxer?

A couple of points here:  they were going for maximum casualties, that is why they attacked on a Tuesday morning, after work started.  They did not attack in the middle of the night or a weekend.  They did mean to sink the Cole, and on the Cole it was a very close thing to save the ship.


Overall, I still suspect Arab Islamic terrorists in the release of anthrax.  There was an article yesterday in the Christian Science Monitor that an Iraqi defector smuggled vials of some sort of liquid to the Al Queda.  There were probably other anthrax letters sent which were destroyed.  

GunLvr