*solved* - Do we have any digital console mixer (sound board) experts in the house?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - *solved* - Do we have any digital console mixer (sound board) experts in the house?

Posted: 6/1/2010 12:37:36 PM EDT

Our church recently got a Yamaha M7CL and it is above our heads. We had it professionally set up and have learned the basics, channel patching and EQ editing and so on, but one item that we HAVE NOT FREKAING BEEN ABLE TO SOLVE is how to apply the virtual effects rack effects such as reverb or distortion to our guitars. Does anyone have any idea how to do this or are familiar with Centralogic? We can hear the effects when cued through our headphones, but cannot get it through our mains or monitors at all.

not ours, but very representative.

Posted: 6/1/2010 12:41:17 PM EDT

[#1]

Try this

Manual pg 6

Posted: 6/1/2010 12:45:08 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Try this

Manual pg 6

I gotta tell, unfortunately, I have looked at this over and over and can still make no sense out of it. Beginning to wonder if it was set up a certain way unusual where this won't work. The manual describes it as if you can only apply the effects directly to one mix or stereo channel, as opposed to everything across the 'board'. Can't make sense of it.

Posted: 6/1/2010 1:06:17 PM EDT

[#3]

How are you running your mix, stereo or mono? How are you returning the effects chain back into your mix?

I used to assign my fx/outboard eq/delays, etc, to a single, separate channel and then mix them in to my mains, one side of the stereo mix set as the main output and the other side as my sub-woofer drive. For the most part kick drums, bass and such. For orchestral stuff, the lower bass instruments (oboes, tubas, etc). This was broken down and assigned to my sub groups, then out to the mains. I used to run 2ea 32 or 48x8x2 Remsa or Yamaha analog consoles for live stuff. Shouldn't be that different with digital stuff, other than how you assign stuff and you have soft switches.

Are you running a separate monitor board split or are you running monitors from the mon send on the main board? How many sends for monitors? You are running separate power amps for monitors, correct?

One other thing, why are you trying to run distortion for a guitar through the main sound console? Most guitarists run effects locally with the sound engineer adding verb or delay to the mix at the end. Myself being a guitarists before doing sound reinforcement.

ETA, you hear it in the headphones because it is probably set PFL (pre-fader) and haven't yet assigned the return path back into the mix. Also, maybe the digital stuff can probably be run differently than the old analog stuff. I haven't touched a console in 15 or 20 years now, but did many, many shows in the years I was working. From the manual (posted above) I just looked at, seems you can do the same stuff as before.

Posted: 6/1/2010 1:15:07 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
How are you running your mix, stereo or mono? How are you returning the effects cain back into your mix?

I used to assign my fx/outboard eq/delays, etc, to a single, separate channel and then mix them in to my mains, one side of the stereo mix set as the main output and the other side as my sub-woofer drive. For the most part kick drums, bass and such. For orchestral stuff, the lower bass instruments (oboes, tubas, etc). This was broken down and assigned to my sub groups, then out to the mains. I used to run 2ea 32 or 48x8x2 Remsa or Yamaha analog consoles for live stuff. Shouldn't be that different with digital stuff, other than how you assign stuff and you have soft switches.

Are you running a separate monitor board split or are you running monitors from the mon send on the main board? How many sends for monitors? You are running separate power amps for monitors, correct?

One other thing, why are you trying to run distortion for a guitar through the main sound console? Most guitarists run effects locally with the sound engineer adding verb or delay to the mix at the end. Myself being a guitarists before doing sound reinforcement.

Sounds like I hit the jackpot here. The mix is run mono, as far as I know. We are running two stacks of mains out of the ceiling and one subwoofer under the stage. The monitor channels (there are two) are run out to 1/4" connectors in plates on the stage along with the rest of the XLR channels. There is a separate amp for the mains and for the monitors, as I recall.

I'm not sure what you mean by running the effects back into the mix. As I understand it, it should go guitar > 1/4" direct box adapter into the floor > mixer board > mains amp > mains, no?

I know that the really preferred method is for the individual instrumentalists to run their own effects there at the instrument itself, but the effects are really more rarely used than for a bunch of additional devices to be used, especially if for the special occasions we are supposed to have to functionality within our board.

Thanks so much for your help.

Posted: 6/1/2010 3:49:24 PM EDT

[#5]

IM sent.

Posted: 6/1/2010 6:01:37 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
IM sent.

I'm going to reply to you via email if that is ok. Being a non-paid account here I am very limited on IM inbox space.

Posted: 6/2/2010 6:11:29 PM EDT

[#7]

FIXED with the help of some communication with rtech and you guys.

As I said, we're all kind of amateurs at it. Our skills are our ears rather than the equipment.

All it needed was the out assigned to a separate channel. For instance, the guitar may be plugged in and played through channel 33 on our board, but to apply the effects I assigned the out to channel 40. I was under the presumption that the out would be just a standard, generic, across the board out to the mains and monitors. No idea that you have to assign it again to a completely separate channel. This makes sense, for running effects that you do not want all of the time and you can turn on / turn off. But, just for argument's sake, as customizable as this thing is there must be a way to assign the effects onto the same channel as the guitar. I tried assigning both in and out to the same channel some weeks before, with very very bad results (for your ears).

Thanks for all of the help and advice, peeps.

Posted: 6/2/2010 8:40:24 PM EDT

[#8]

Why do churches let themselves get talked into buying equipment they don't have the people to operate it? It must be like government, easy to throw around other people's money, huh?

Sheesh!

K - I - S - S !!! Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Sorry, but I see this all too often.

Posted: 6/2/2010 8:50:00 PM EDT

[#9]

This was already touched on, but running your guitars direct into the console and adding verb and distortion there is a little bit ridiculous. At least get a Line 6 combo with a direct out or something - the last thing you want your sound guy having to do is play with your guitar tones. The console isn't designed for that and it's NOT going to sound good, and your mix guy is going to have a tough enough time with the overall mix. How do you tell him what tone you want, when, and if it's right or not while you're playing?

If you guys want some solid training, check out this website and contact them. The owner is a long time friend of mine:

http://www.sonic-art.net/training/on-site/develop-your-sound-ministry.html

Posted: 6/2/2010 8:58:16 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

FIXED with the help of some communication with rtech and you guys.

As I said, we're all kind of amateurs at it. Our skills are our ears rather than the equipment.

All it needed was the out assigned to a separate channel. For instance, the guitar may be plugged in and played through channel 33 on our board, but to apply the effects I assigned the out to channel 40. I was under the presumption that the out would be just a standard, generic, across the board out to the mains and monitors. No idea that you have to assign it again to a completely separate channel. This makes sense, for running effects that you do not want all of the time and you can turn on / turn off. But, just for argument's sake, as customizable as this thing is there must be a way to assign the effects onto the same channel as the guitar. I tried assigning both in and out to the same channel some weeks before, with very very bad results (for your ears).

Thanks for all of the help and advice, peeps.

Well, you can use a processor as an insert, and change the mix parameter to change the mix parameter to change the amount of effect applied... We do that for a gated reverb on the snare, but it's not easily controllable.

I agree with the other poster that suggested guitar effects be separate from the board. For a church a line 6 type device is ideal.

ETA: Attending some yamaha training would be a really good idea. Big time. Lots. Get the idea???

The M7CL is a very capable, powerful system. But if you don't know what your doing, you can easily dig yourself into a world of hurt. At least get some help with initial set up, and lock that sucker down, until you get some training.

Posted: 6/2/2010 9:00:55 PM EDT

[#11]

Seriously, what the hell does a CHURCH need with that kind of equipment? That thing makes our main rig look like a 4 channel Behringer, and we've done shows for some pretty big name acts (Sammy Kershaw just to name one)

I've worked on keyboards worth thousands and thousands for churches, that have everything including a kitchen sink, and they use it for the organ sound. That's it! 5k Korg, that only ever sees one setting. Makes me wonder sometime.

ETA $27 grand? Someone must have been out of their minds. I knew the thing was pricy, but damn you can buy a nice truck for that...that's way more than I make in an entire year... And, you guys spent that much on a console, yet don't have anyone knowledgeable enough to run it?

Posted: 6/2/2010 9:11:12 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Seriously, what the hell does a CHURCH need with that kind of equipment? That thing makes our main rig look like a 4 channel Behringer, and we've done shows for some pretty big name acts (Sammy Kershaw just to name one)

I've worked on keyboards worth thousands and thousands for churches, that have everything including a kitchen sink, and they use it for the organ sound. That's it! 5k Korg, that only ever sees one setting. Makes me wonder sometime.

Yeah, for some reason churches seem to have a Star Trek FOH and instruments but they always go lounge act on the amps and speakers......barely adequate for public address stuff (amplifying the preacher) much less full scale music reproduction. I've seen Christian music concerts in churches and they could have doubled the racks and stacks for the FOH and it MIGHT have been adequate but still without the kind of headroom I like to see.

Posted: 6/2/2010 9:18:43 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Seriously, what the hell does a CHURCH need with that kind of equipment? That thing makes our main rig look like a 4 channel Behringer, and we've done shows for some pretty big name acts (Sammy Kershaw just to name one)

I've worked on keyboards worth thousands and thousands for churches, that have everything including a kitchen sink, and they use it for the organ sound. That's it! 5k Korg, that only ever sees one setting. Makes me wonder sometime.

Yeah, for some reason churches seem to have a Star Trek FOH and instruments but they always go lounge act on the amps and speakers......barely adequate for public address stuff (amplifying the preacher) much less full scale music reproduction. I've seen Christian music concerts in churches and they could have doubled the racks and stacks for the FOH and it MIGHT have been adequate but still without the kind of headroom I like to see.

Doesn't make any sense...I could outfit a hell of a band with that kind of cash, and actually, you know, give them GUITAR AMPS.

One of the worst things I have ever seen (at least in the church world) is a guy brought in an almost mint Blackface. Needed a busted bright switch replaced, and a cap near the input. I noticed that the power tubes were mismatched, and called the guy up, and tried to talk him into a new set of tubes (they were all ancient)

He told me that it sat in a closet except for about three times a year, when he brought it out to play in some sort of church function. I about cried when I heard that...he really had no idea what he had, other than it made the guitar louder. It took every bit of professionalism that I had to not offer to trade him for a solid state Crate, and charge nothing for the repair.

Posted: 6/2/2010 9:52:51 PM EDT

[#14]

In our defense, we just built a brand new sanctuary, so it needed a brand new system and we did have a professional team set it up. We run 200+ on typical worship services. We do actually use a number of the features. For one, nearly all but a couple of the sets of channels (30+). Yes, we have that many instruments and praise team vocals. Two, the digital patching has been a Godsend. Also, saving "scenes" and so on. The thing is, we very rarely need to add an effect to a guitar, but when we do, it is something simple like the built in reverb or phaser. Our sound guys are all tight, and know exactly what the guitarist is wanting and have very open lines of communication.

We host regional competitions and talent things so the equipment is really utilized to the extent that we can. The problem is, our sound guys are all volunteers. No one is paid to run sound, we are all at amateur to novice levels of experience on it. So while we have done light training, no one can really be expected to "give up their day job" to become an expert on the system.

Make sense?

Posted: 6/2/2010 10:06:24 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

In our defense, we just built a brand new sanctuary, so it needed a brand new system and we did have a professional team set it up. We run 200+ on typical worship services. We do actually use a number of the features. For one, nearly all but a couple of the sets of channels (30+). Yes, we have that many instruments and praise team vocals. Two, the digital patching has been a Godsend. Also, saving "scenes" and so on. The thing is, we very rarely need to add an effect to a guitar, but when we do, it is something simple like the built in reverb or phaser. Our sound guys are all tight, and know exactly what the guitarist is wanting and have very open lines of communication.

We host regional competitions and talent things so the equipment is really utilized to the extent that we can. The problem is, our sound guys are all volunteers. No one is paid to run sound, we are all at amateur to novice levels of experience on it. So while we have done light training, no one can really be expected to "give up their day job" to become an expert on the system.

Make sense?

No offense, that's about 25k too much system for what you guys are doing. You don't need to spend 27k to have access to 48 channels. Adding effects to a guitar through a mixer board is about the worst way you could go about it. Guitar effects pedals are around a hundred bucks a pop, and will sound much better than running through a board. And guitars sound horrid through a board. There's a reason people make guitar amps, and it's not just to make the guitar louder.

Having a system like that is like driving an Indy car to your mailbox that's 50 feet away. Whoever made the decision to buy that got suckered into it and you guys got royally screwed. We've done shows with 5k+ people, and that board alone is worth a good chunk of our rig.

Posted: 6/2/2010 10:12:18 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

In our defense, we just built a brand new sanctuary, so it needed a brand new system and we did have a professional team set it up. We run 200+ on typical worship services. We do actually use a number of the features. For one, nearly all but a couple of the sets of channels (30+). Yes, we have that many instruments and praise team vocals. Two, the digital patching has been a Godsend. Also, saving "scenes" and so on. The thing is, we very rarely need to add an effect to a guitar, but when we do, it is something simple like the built in reverb or phaser. Our sound guys are all tight, and know exactly what the guitarist is wanting and have very open lines of communication.

We host regional competitions and talent things so the equipment is really utilized to the extent that we can. The problem is, our sound guys are all volunteers. No one is paid to run sound, we are all at amateur to novice levels of experience on it. So while we have done light training, no one can really be expected to "give up their day job" to become an expert on the system.

Make sense?

No offense, that's about 25k too much system for what you guys are doing. You don't need to spend 27k to have access to 48 channels. Adding effects to a guitar through a mixer board is about the worst way you could go about it. Guitar effects pedals are around a hundred bucks a pop, and will sound much better than running through a board. And guitars sound horrid through a board. There's a reason people make guitar amps, and it's not just to make the guitar louder.

Having a system like that is like driving an Indy car to your mailbox that's 50 feet away. Whoever made the decision to buy that got suckered into it and you guys got royally screwed. We've done shows with 5k+ people, and that board alone is worth a good chunk of our rig.

Well, we are just lately bringing more of a guitar presence into the worship mix so it is slow going. We actually do have member-owned pedals and a Line 6 head unit, its just that the effects are so rarely used. This was basically a "hey lets do it just because we know that we should be able to" and "if we want to apply the effects every now and then but do not want to invest the effort and time into setting up the whole system of head unit, pedals, etc." It would make more sense if you were here, I promise. Also, the guys who provided the system and install supposedly did it for an incredible deal as they have a professional working relationship with some of the members.

Serious question though - why does the M7CL even contain all of these effects (and I mean, there is a bunch of them, everything from phaser to delay to different reverbs, etc) if they did not intend on it's serious use?

Posted: 6/2/2010 10:33:24 PM EDT

[#17]

In beatle's defense, I used to sell pro audio gear and some to churches as well. I was also a live audio engineer and musician. They probably had a budget and the salesman saw nothing but dollar signs (probably worked commission) and sold them more gear than they may have needed. It happens. Sounds like they will get to use it as they grow and gain experience. Everybody starts out somewhere.

I haven't touched a system in 18 years or so and digital was way more back then, think flying faders stuff and placed in recording studios.

Yamaha used to have a book called "The audio engineer's handbook" or something like that. It's a really good book and nice reference guide.

Guys, don't be too hard on him. At least he asked for help.

Posted: 6/2/2010 10:48:10 PM EDT

[#18]

Beatle, I was just thinking, you should be able to assign individual effects right back into the source channel, just like a physical effects loop on the board. You wouldn't need to run it to a different channel if you don't want to. Or you could just assign the source channel and the effects channel to a sub group if you wanted. All up to how you want to go about it.

For what it's worth, I never liked built in devices for effects. It might be different now. I used to have an SPX-90 for verb/phase effects, An SDE-1000 for delays, DBX160 for compression and such. I liked the Midi-verb and multi-verb units when they came out. Like I said, 20 years ago.

I remember loaning one of my Korg delays to Dio's guitar player for "Lock up the wolves" because his broke while recording.

Posted: 6/2/2010 10:54:13 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

In our defense, we just built a brand new sanctuary, so it needed a brand new system and we did have a professional team set it up. We run 200+ on typical worship services. We do actually use a number of the features. For one, nearly all but a couple of the sets of channels (30+). Yes, we have that many instruments and praise team vocals. Two, the digital patching has been a Godsend. Also, saving "scenes" and so on. The thing is, we very rarely need to add an effect to a guitar, but when we do, it is something simple like the built in reverb or phaser. Our sound guys are all tight, and know exactly what the guitarist is wanting and have very open lines of communication.

We host regional competitions and talent things so the equipment is really utilized to the extent that we can. The problem is, our sound guys are all volunteers. No one is paid to run sound, we are all at amateur to novice levels of experience on it. So while we have done light training, no one can really be expected to "give up their day job" to become an expert on the system.

Make sense?

No offense, that's about 25k too much system for what you guys are doing. You don't need to spend 27k to have access to 48 channels. Adding effects to a guitar through a mixer board is about the worst way you could go about it. Guitar effects pedals are around a hundred bucks a pop, and will sound much better than running through a board. And guitars sound horrid through a board. There's a reason people make guitar amps, and it's not just to make the guitar louder.

Having a system like that is like driving an Indy car to your mailbox that's 50 feet away. Whoever made the decision to buy that got suckered into it and you guys got royally screwed. We've done shows with 5k+ people, and that board alone is worth a good chunk of our rig.

Well, we are just lately bringing more of a guitar presence into the worship mix so it is slow going. We actually do have member-owned pedals and a Line 6 head unit, its just that the effects are so rarely used. This was basically a "hey lets do it just because we know that we should be able to" and "if we want to apply the effects every now and then but do not want to invest the effort and time into setting up the whole system of head unit, pedals, etc." It would make more sense if you were here, I promise. Also, the guys who provided the system and install supposedly did it for an incredible deal as they have a professional working relationship with some of the members.

Serious question though - why does the M7CL even contain all of these effects (and I mean, there is a bunch of them, everything from phaser to delay to different reverbs, etc) if they did not intend on it's serious use?

I'm not meaning to be too hard on you, just trying to help you realize that you guys got taken, and you got taken hard. Like a guy going into a gunstore and walking out with an M82 Barrett and 10k worth of a scope, when he went in to buy something to plink at cans at 15m. Seriously, THAT bad. Even if he got an "incredible deal" that's 16k too much, when a Ruger 10/22 would have sufficed. I'm not saying that you guys should have went with a crap system, not at all, but that you got suckered into going WAY overboard. A couple of rack mounted effects units could have given you all of those abilities, at a vastly reduced cost.

The effects are used for live performances when they are needed, for vocals, and reverb for everything. Generally those built in effects take the place of rack mounted ones, and when you need to have very precise control on each effect for each channel. Music in a church for 200 people doesn't have that requirement. They are serious, but you're missing something about guitars.

The guitar is only half the instrument, and honestly, it's not the most important part. The amp really creates the sound of the guitar, shapes it into something pleasing to the ear. I don't care what guitar you have, whether it be a $50 First Act from Wal Mart, or a vintage Les Paul that's worth over 20k, plug it straight into a power amp of any kind, and it's going to sound like ass. Even the most basic guitar amp is going to sound a thousand times better than the way you guys are doing things.

Posted: 6/2/2010 10:56:46 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Beatle, I was just thinking, you should be able to assign individual effects right back into the source channel, just like a physical effects loop on the board. You wouldn't need to run it to a different channel if you don't want to. Or you could just assign the source channel and the effects channel to a sub group if you wanted. All up to how you want to go about it.

For what it's worth, I never liked built in devices for effects. It might be different now. I used to have an SPX-90 for verb/phase effects, An SDE-1000 for delays, DBX160 for compression and such. I liked the Midi-verb and multi-verb units when they came out. Like I said, 20 years ago.

I remember loaning one of my Korg delays to Dio's guitar player for "Lock up the wolves" because his broke while recording.

I've seen these boards (and heard them) in person, and man, they can do ANYTHING. The built in effects are amazing. But someone sold them a Cray supercomputer to browse the web.

Posted: 6/2/2010 11:12:32 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Beatle, I was just thinking, you should be able to assign individual effects right back into the source channel, just like a physical effects loop on the board. You wouldn't need to run it to a different channel if you don't want to. Or you could just assign the source channel and the effects channel to a sub group if you wanted. All up to how you want to go about it.

For what it's worth, I never liked built in devices for effects. It might be different now. I used to have an SPX-90 for verb/phase effects, An SDE-1000 for delays, DBX160 for compression and such. I liked the Midi-verb and multi-verb units when they came out. Like I said, 20 years ago.

I remember loaning one of my Korg delays to Dio's guitar player for "Lock up the wolves" because his broke while recording.

I've seen these boards (and heard them) in person, and man, they can do ANYTHING. The built in effects are amazing. But someone sold them a Cray supercomputer to browse the web.

I agree that they probably got taken. But they probably had the budget for it. Maybe they'll grow into it. There are unscrupulous people everywhere. I've seen it in gun shops and pro audio shops.

Posted: 6/2/2010 11:19:35 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Beatle, I was just thinking, you should be able to assign individual effects right back into the source channel, just like a physical effects loop on the board. You wouldn't need to run it to a different channel if you don't want to. Or you could just assign the source channel and the effects channel to a sub group if you wanted. All up to how you want to go about it.

For what it's worth, I never liked built in devices for effects. It might be different now. I used to have an SPX-90 for verb/phase effects, An SDE-1000 for delays, DBX160 for compression and such. I liked the Midi-verb and multi-verb units when they came out. Like I said, 20 years ago.

I remember loaning one of my Korg delays to Dio's guitar player for "Lock up the wolves" because his broke while recording.

I've seen these boards (and heard them) in person, and man, they can do ANYTHING. The built in effects are amazing. But someone sold them a Cray supercomputer to browse the web.

I agree that they probably got taken. But they probably had the budget for it. Maybe they'll grow into it. There are unscrupulous people everywhere. I've seen it in gun shops and pro audio shops.

I'm sure they will figure out how to use it but again, it's way to much and way to complicated for what they are doing. 200 people dude, haha. That board is almost capable of giving them ALL their own mics and mixes, not just the people who are performing!

Whoever who made THAT purchase decision should no longer have a job/have the power to make those decisions anymore.

Posted: 6/2/2010 11:20:51 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Try this

Manual pg 6

I gotta tell, unfortunately, I have looked at this over and over and can still make no sense out of it. Beginning to wonder if it was set up a certain way unusual where this won't work. The manual describes it as if you can only apply the effects directly to one mix or stereo channel, as opposed to everything across the 'board'. Can't make sense of it.

nm you got it fixed it seems

Posted: 6/2/2010 11:23:04 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Beatle, I was just thinking, you should be able to assign individual effects right back into the source channel, just like a physical effects loop on the board. You wouldn't need to run it to a different channel if you don't want to. Or you could just assign the source channel and the effects channel to a sub group if you wanted. All up to how you want to go about it.

For what it's worth, I never liked built in devices for effects. It might be different now. I used to have an SPX-90 for verb/phase effects, An SDE-1000 for delays, DBX160 for compression and such. I liked the Midi-verb and multi-verb units when they came out. Like I said, 20 years ago.

I remember loaning one of my Korg delays to Dio's guitar player for "Lock up the wolves" because his broke while recording.

I've seen these boards (and heard them) in person, and man, they can do ANYTHING. The built in effects are amazing. But someone sold them a Cray supercomputer to browse the web.

I agree that they probably got taken. But they probably had the budget for it. Maybe they'll grow into it. There are unscrupulous people everywhere. I've seen it in gun shops and pro audio shops.

I'm sure they will figure out how to use it but again, it's way to much and way to complicated for what they are doing. 200 people dude, haha. That board is almost capable of giving them ALL their own mics and mixes, not just the people who are performing!

Whoever who made THAT purchase decision should no longer have a job/have the power to make those decisions anymore.

no doubt. you could have got a simple mixing board and patched it into a cheap DAW like Cubase or something for under a couple grand.

Posted: 6/3/2010 10:44:58 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Seriously, what the hell does a CHURCH need with that kind of equipment? That thing makes our main rig look like a 4 channel Behringer, and we've done shows for some pretty big name acts (Sammy Kershaw just to name one)

I've worked on keyboards worth thousands and thousands for churches, that have everything including a kitchen sink, and they use it for the organ sound. That's it! 5k Korg, that only ever sees one setting. Makes me wonder sometime.

ETA $27 grand? Someone must have been out of their minds. I knew the thing was pricy, but damn you can buy a nice truck for that...that's way more than I make in an entire year... And, you guys spent that much on a console, yet don't have anyone knowledgeable enough to run it?

If they spent $27 grand on an M7CL, they were ripped off big time. Actual street price is about half, 60% of that.

Frankly, the M7CL has a lot of features that are very helpful for churches. Complete recall, security, Built in FX (good ones), at a price not much higher than a good quality analog 48 channel board... Yamaha has targeted the M7CL at churches, Oh, and if you haven't noticed, pro sound, like everything else, is going digital. Midas has discontinued the XL4, Soundcraft discontinued the Series 5, etc. And don't discount the needs of even a smallish church running contemporary worship. You can burn through input channels and mixes with surprising speed compared to a concert.

Does the OP's church need an M7CL? I don't know. I don't know the worship formats, or any of the needs or budgetary issues that go into the decision. I know one church locally that spent about 100K on new main speakers. They didn't need to, but they received a donation with instructions that it be used to do that, and only that.

Posted: 6/3/2010 10:54:00 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Beatle, I was just thinking, you should be able to assign individual effects right back into the source channel, just like a physical effects loop on the board. You wouldn't need to run it to a different channel if you don't want to. Or you could just assign the source channel and the effects channel to a sub group if you wanted. All up to how you want to go about it.

For what it's worth, I never liked built in devices for effects. It might be different now. I used to have an SPX-90 for verb/phase effects, An SDE-1000 for delays, DBX160 for compression and such. I liked the Midi-verb and multi-verb units when they came out. Like I said, 20 years ago.

I remember loaning one of my Korg delays to Dio's guitar player for "Lock up the wolves" because his broke while recording.

The FX in the M7CL are very good. Including SPX series algorithims. They sound better than the midi-verb by far. It's also nice to be able to recall FX per scene without futzing around with MIDI, and program them from the touchscreen rather than the craptastic interface on a 1U box. The compressors are more than adequate for live sound... And that's two dynamics processors on every channel, including gate, compressor, de-esser, or expander, 4 band fully parametric EQ on every channel and mix, 4 insertable grahic EQ's, 4 insertable FX processors, etc, etc. All completely digitally recallable at the touch of a button.

Posted: 6/3/2010 11:00:17 PM EDT

[#27]

I'm but a simple guitar player, but might you just mic the guitar cabinet with a Sure SM57, and call it a day?

I can dial up reverb and distortion all day long, with the guitar straight into my tube amp head. Don't even have to bust out the effect pedals or guitar processor.

Posted: 6/3/2010 11:11:42 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I'm but a simple guitar player, but might you just mic the guitar cabinet with a Sure SM57, and call it a day?

I can dial up reverb and distortion all day long, with the guitar straight into my tube amp head. Don't even have to bust out the effect pedals or guitar processor.

There is actually some good reasons to have time based FX (reverb, delay) added after the tube amp head (which is effectively a big distortion effect), but it's generally done with either a more sophisticated guitar processor, or not worried about in live applications. I've never inserted FX onto a guitar channel live, as a sound guy.... In the studio? Sure, all the time.

ETA: Yes, putting a '57 on the cab is generally the way to do things, if you don't have a guitar processor... Lot's of churches like the processors to keep the stage volume level down.

Posted: 6/3/2010 11:17:46 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I'm but a simple guitar player, but might you just mic the guitar cabinet with a Sure SM57, and call it a day?

I can dial up reverb and distortion all day long, with the guitar straight into my tube amp head. Don't even have to bust out the effect pedals or guitar processor.

There is actually some good reasons to have time based FX (reverb, delay) added after the tube amp head (which is effectively a big distortion effect), but it's generally done with either a more sophisticated guitar processor, or not worried about in live applications. I've never inserted FX onto a guitar channel live, as a sound guy.... In the studio? Sure, all the time.

ETA: Yes, putting a '57 on the cab is generally the way to do things, if you don't have a guitar processor... Lot's of churches like the processors to keep the stage volume level down.

I don't know much about live sound engineering. It's 3:15am and I'm interested. What are the good reasons?

Posted: 6/3/2010 11:32:20 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm but a simple guitar player, but might you just mic the guitar cabinet with a Sure SM57, and call it a day?

I can dial up reverb and distortion all day long, with the guitar straight into my tube amp head. Don't even have to bust out the effect pedals or guitar processor.

There is actually some good reasons to have time based FX (reverb, delay) added after the tube amp head (which is effectively a big distortion effect), but it's generally done with either a more sophisticated guitar processor, or not worried about in live applications. I've never inserted FX onto a guitar channel live, as a sound guy.... In the studio? Sure, all the time.

ETA: Yes, putting a '57 on the cab is generally the way to do things, if you don't have a guitar processor... Lot's of churches like the processors to keep the stage volume level down.

I don't know much about live sound engineering. It's 3:15am and I'm interested. What are the good reasons?

I was going to send you a link, but the site appears to be down.... www.amptone.com.

Short version is that by putting your guitar through a reverb pedal (or anything else that changes the signal in the time domain) you will cause your amp (or any other distortion adding device) to start to turn your sound to mush by distorting reverb tails and the like on top of new notes. By contrast, if you add your distortion first, then apply reverb or delay on the distrorted sound, you won't get weird interactions or funny sounding tone.

Obviously, playing live this is a bitch to fix, as most guitar players control of the signal ends at the amp, and they (rightfully) don't trust the sound guy.

Lexicon once made a guitar processor, the MPX2 (iirc) that actually had two effects loops in it, so you could put effects both before and after an actual tube amp. pretty neat. In the studio it's easy, as we can just record a "clean" track, and then run it through whatever combination of devices we want too, until we get the sound right.

Posted: 6/4/2010 12:22:16 AM EDT

[#31]

Most guitar amps with an FX loop place the FX send after the tone portion of the amp and the return inserts right before the main amp itself.

Guitar signal chain should look like this: Guitar -> Gain stage 1 -> Gain stage 2 (this is where you create your tones, clean, distortion, saturated, whatever) -> FX loop (verb, delays, etc) -> Power amp -> speaker cabinet -> mic (if amplified in FOH)

In the studio, if the player is a vet and knows what he is doing, I'll print his reverb and/or delay and use it. Usually however, I'll record guitar with no effects and add effects in the mixdown phase. What you have to be careful of is FX level - sometimes you don't know how much you need until you get a mix going - and rate/decay with delays.....generally you want the tap rate to be at or a multiple of the song tempo.

In all these discussions, the OP needs to note the difference between TONES (clean, distorted, round, fat, thin, jangly, saturated) and EFFECTS (reverb, delay, flange, phase, etc).

Posted: 6/4/2010 8:52:08 AM EDT

[#32]

all of you guys and your expertise never ceases to amaze me

Posted: 6/4/2010 9:02:31 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

all of you guys and your expertise never ceases to amaze me

Live sound is one of those things that has many experts. It's not like putting people in to rockets and firing them off in to space ~ most of us play music as a hobby and, over the years, have gained a plethora of knowledge on the subject.

Posted: 6/4/2010 8:38:11 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

all of you guys and your expertise never ceases to amaze me

Live sound is one of those things that has many experts. It's not like putting people in to rockets and firing them off in to space ~ most of us play music as a hobby and, over the years, have gained a plethora of knowledge on the subject.

Yep...although I wouldn't qualify myself as an expert (hell I'm usually doing the cable monkey jobs!) I'd rather be building or working on amps personally.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - *solved* - Do we have any digital console mixer (sound board) experts in the house?

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