I have been wondering what the great appeal of Pre-Ban AR's is, particularly considering the thread in which most responders indicated that they generally use the multi-position stock in the fully extended position.
How can I rationalize spending >50% more for a (probably secondhand) rifle with features that most never use?

Many refer to the rifle as an investment.  Where can I find data that would support a decision to invest money this way?  

I guess that it is possible to rationalize the purchase in much the same way that a collector car is purchased:  Driven on Sundays, well maintained, and admired as a limited edition symbol of great engineering, capable of cruising comfortably at 150+ . . . ?  Loosely related to the process of accumulating cellars of fine wine?

Please tell me what you think.  

All right, I'll throw in here:

1.  With a Pre-ban gun, I am exempt from some government regulations--I can have a flash hider, telestock (or folding stock) or bayo lug on an AR.  I have a gun similar to the M16A2 in issue now, and as a pre-ban (it's a blue label Colt), it is as close (if I added a bayo lug) as I can come here in IL to a real USGI military rifle.  A post ban is a perfectly functional rifle, and is much better priced than a pre-ban for general use.  However, my Uncle has a couple of $1.00 Gold Coins.  They are a little smaller than the new US "Gold" Sacajwea (sp?) coins.  Which is worth more?  They both have a $1.00 face value.  They are small enough that the gold weight is fairly minimal--why are they worth 5 or 6 times what the the gold in them is worth?

2.  As an investment guns are a crappy way to make money.  BUT--and it's a big BUT, they are a fairly safe way to store the money.  If I buy a used (like a car, a gun loses value when you first use it) AR-15, and shoot it for a few years (maintaining it carefully), I can sell it for what I put into it, or a little more.  I might not make any money, and would probably have made a handsome profit if I had invested the same money in stocks or put it into a CD.  However, I did get the pleasure of the use of the gun in the meanwhile--how do you put a price on that?

3.  If you are going to invest in guns, you have to treat it in the same way as you would investing in rare coins, stamps, etc.  Know as much as possible about the guns you are willing to buy.  Search out examples selling for far below market value (auctions, classifieds, etc.), buy them and re-sell them for a profit.  Don't expect to buy a rifle here on the equipment exchange and turn around and resell it for a large profit 6 months later.  However, if you find a Colt Government Carbine for $600 at a garage sale, feel free to come here, and I'll give you $750 for it (it would sell, in good condition for $2000, and the $600 is about what it sold for in the early 90's).  

Some intrinsic value must be placed in more thoroughly pissing off a liberal.

The pre-ban is exceedingly evil.
Just think about that terrible flash-suppressor, the bayonet lug (indispensable for those drive-by bayonetings) and the folding or telescoping stock !!

On a less serious note, the pre-ban will be more versatile as you can use any pre-ban or post-ban upper you choose.  
If you shop carefully and take care of your rifle the pre-ban will at least hold its' value.

If your budget allows, I would recommend a pre-ban.
I always rationalize my gun purchases to match my available budget !!

Not to mention, it is my way of saying a big FU to the gubmint... and owning something that some bigots in Washington want to take away from the people.

I like the ability to carry the collpased stock in the short position...  good for taking the younger kids out shooting as well, since they use it in the shorter positions.  

And, I like the idea of being able to have the "correct" rifle... with the bayo lug and flash hider, just as I should be able to own these.....  

Stupid laws.

AFARR, If you had a Bushmaster preban you could get even closer [:D]

[peep]

Preban guns, mags, etc. are reminders of the incremental tyranny that the people of the United States have passively allowed to happen.

How many more freedoms are YOU willing to give up?

I've just returned from a night out.  Must let some of the responses "sink in" during my night's rest.  Will rephrase tomorrow afternoon after I've attended to all of my family and religious obligations.

Particlarly, I'm most interested in hearing more about:

Imbroglio:
"Preban guns, mags, etc. are reminders of the incremental tyranny that the people of the United States have passively allowed to happen."

I wonder why you feel that our government is a tyranny, especially considering the elections that determine our representatives.
In reference to your last question:  What freedoms does this this question threaten?  I imagine that you are quite involved in voter recruitment.  Does your resentment stem from the fact that most voters (or lawmakers) feel differently that you feel?  I tend to agree with you.  I guess that you need help with voter recruitment?  In letter writing?  How can I assist?

5subslr5:
"Some intrinsic value must be placed in more thoroughly pissing off a liberal."
-Reminiscent of the iconoclastic "F*** THE POLICE" tattoo on the forehead of a man in our city.

AFARR:
Thanks for your comments!  I do maintain (and train often with) my weapons, and do feel that their function deteriorates little with time.  If value is associated with their practicality, then the money spent is well spent.  I like the coin/stamp analogy.  Both can be beautiful.  Both must be protected from the elements to maintain value.  Have sad memores of one flood that destroyed the value of my collection of stamps!  Have never been a coin collector, but do believe that your uncle has some very valuable coins in his possession.  (Not familiar with US $1 gold coins.)  

P.S
I want to believe, in my heart of hearts, that this board is an "American" one.  Why, I wonder, FALARAK, are you so "FU to the gubmint [sic]. . . "?

I'm afraid, now, as I type this, that my questions might be interpreted as "picking the brains" of individuals.  I trust that no one involved will believe this.  
I consider myself to be a fine citizen and true American.  I endeavor to educate myself on each of my hobbies.  Please, please, share with me your thoughts!  You are a bright group, and I have much to learn.  I turn to you as experts in the field. . . those with little to gain from the advice provided.  I'll recognize you as the others scanning the estate sale ads for firearms!  And do appreciate the ability for the adjustable stocks to accommodate smaller shooters.  I want to involve as many in the sport as I can.  Such fun.  
In any case, I'd like to know more!

As always,
Simply,
IMHO  

Why I prefer Preban:
1. The Collapsible stock is great when shooters of differing size use the rifle, or in close quarters applications. Plus, it looks evil when fully collapsed and pisses off the liberals.
2. The Flash Supressor is worth the extra money in that: Most brakes just look stupid or like a neutered FS, and the FS does what a brake cannot (Reduces Flash) and it is not so damned loud that the dude next to me at the range wants to strangle me because the blast is damaging his hearing and giving him a concussion thru plugs AND muffs, and being as it is a Phantom, it has sharp ends and an evil look and pisses off the liberals.
3. The bayonet lug, well simply put, I have no intent to ever use it for it's intended purpose, but the sight of namby-pamby hanky-stompers quivering with disgust when they see my "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL AY-sault weapon" makes that innocuous little piece of steel worth it's weight in gold.
All smartassedness aside, if one is patient and persistent, pre bans can be had for very close to the price of post bans. Even if not, IMO, the freedom to choose how YOU want to set the rifle up vs. having to compromise with a neutered rifle so it's approved for a lowly commoner to posess is worth the extra green.
JMO, YMMV.
Pit

'Cuz I can... (or *could* until our legislators got a hold of those pesky freedoms).

It's fun.  (Anybody said that already?)

Depends on why you have your weapon. If you have it because you think you may someday (God help us all) use it against an enemy, then a flash hider is worth the extra money in itself. Otherwise, I would say there is probably nothing inherent in a pre-ban to make it worth a bunch of extra bucks.
Though I guess I've got to admit the "because I want one" factor is as valid as anything else.
-Tom

Here's my .02,
I'm considering purchasing a preban ,& when I get the funds together, will be willing to pay handsomely for a good one. The reason is, I just cannot stand the idea that some pencil-neck bureaucrat says I CANNOT possess such a device. This galls me to no end, as I'm sure it does others on this board. My postban colt is an exellent rifle, but owning a preban would be a great big "F.YOU!" to Chucky, Diane, Teddy, & all the other cursed gun-grabbers in D.C. The big question is, will the 94 ban sunset? I don't think so. It's for the children, you know. But if it does, I will be kicking myself in the ass for paying $1800 for a used rifle. so what to do? What do you guys think? BTW, if anyone attending the BRC has a nice preban they want to unload, bring it along. Blaster may just go ahead and clean out the bank account before making the drive.[:D]

If you keep your eyes open and cruise the for-sale forums on the internet, you can find reasonable prices on prebans, particularly off-brand ones.

Because Chuck Schumer and Diane F**kstick don't want me to have one.

I bought a Colt MT6601 a couple years back. It's a great rifle but the naked muzzle and missing bayonet lug are a constant reminder of the violation of the Bill Of Rights perpetrated daily by our out of control government.

I'm in the process of building/assembling the ugliest, scariest, most anti-PC "Semi Automatic Assault Weapon" I can afford. It will be the most expensive thing I own that can be held in one hand. If it upsets the gun-grabbers it's worth it.

I think what IMHO is asking is "What are the practical benefits of preban features."

For a standard government 20" model I really don't care, pre or post. Usually I shoot my POSTBAN Armalite. That way I don't ding up my preban Colt with continued use. The flash hider looks cooler than a brake but makes little actual difference.

For the Carbine model, I don't even own a postban. And fixed telestocks are just plain stupid. If I had a postban carbine it would have a standard A2 buttstock. The standard buttstock is more comfortable and more accurate to shoot with. The ONLY reason to have the other buttstock is IT COLLAPSES. Non collapsable buttstocks are like ventilated condoms, uncomfortable and they don't work.

And no I seldom shoot my carbine with the buttstock in the collapsed position. It is to make it more portable and that is the benefit I use.

As far as bayo lugs, never used them. Flash hiders, well you still see a flash. The thing to remember is this though. Getting rid of these "evil features" was NOT to make a rifle safer or limit its criminal applications. The purpose was to legislate away an entire class of firearms that had military features. The government INTENDED to leave nothing but pump action shotguns and lever action rifles. They did NOT anticipate SPORTER models. And as a result they banned those too. Then we came out with the post 94 models, but you can bet the government will get around to them as well.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on who we elect.

I also agree with SteyrAUG 100%...The more I learn about these things. I can't believe that they will not try to do away with everything we should have a right to own.
No matter what you say about elect this or that person. Some how a bill gets passed because it does more for the majority of people. Your reasons get dumped to the side. In that bill is a clause about Childcare, EEO, Education, Health Care whatever. So what the person you elected sees, too get this I have to do away with that. Watch and see all the junk piled in on a bill people forget the real issues.

The government doesn't have intent and doesn't want anything. At the end of the day the number of visionaries in government is small, and they are pushed out as quickly as possible. The rest of them are there to perpetuate and expand their power and keep the money flowing. Laws come out of that, and our representatives would outlaw sunshine and apple pie if it kept them in office and gave them more power.

If giving up flash hiders (that never hid flash), bayonet lugs (that haven't had much purpose in a long time), and collapsing stocks (that never get collapsed anyways) made the public apathetic in creating more control laws... GREAT.

But now it's time for the pro-2nd amendment people to fire up and make sure that a 2004 Crime Bill doesn't even get introduced. By the time it gets on the floor for voting it's too late.

In the meantime buy a gun you can fire and not be afraid to impact its value. You can buy alot of ammo for the difference in price and unless you aspire to mount a bayonet on the end of your rifle everything else will be the same.

Lawmakers feel differently from me???? MOST IN GOVERNMENT DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION OR BILL OF RIGHTS. MOST IN GOVERNMENT THINK THEIR OATH OF OFFICE IS JUST A MERE FORMALITY. Isn't that enough? Try taking a look at the Declaration of Independence and see how many items in the list of grievances the government is imposing.

IMO the U.S. has slipped past the point of no return. "Compromise" (read appeasment) to the socialists is now SOP. The endless process of voting for the lesser of 2 evils is getting nothing but diminishing returns. People gladly accept and rationalize more oppression just as long as it comes from their own political party.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to read and reply to my questions.  
Responses seem to break into a few categories:

1) The appeal of the Pre-Ban rifle lies in its approximation to the authentic weapon in service with out military.  This rifle looks similar to the weapon used by our service people.  Appearance is important.  This group might also be attracted to automobiles with ground effects or aftermarket spoilers?

2) The appeal of the Pre-Ban rifle lies in the rifle itself.  One likes the weapon, so one makes the purchase.  

3) The appeal of the Pre-Ban rifle lies in the adjustability of the stock to accommodate smaller shooters, or to fit a user comfortably despite the thickness of apparel. Those who choose the adjustable stocks are willing to sacrifice a cheek weld, storage space, and some durability (I’d guess) for the convenience of portability.  I see the merit in this decision.

4) The appeal of the Pre-Ban rifle lies in a desire to "piss people off".  I have little tolerance for this type of inflammatory behavior
[Edited to avoid name calling.  Sorry if I pissed you off.]

Edited to add:
5) It's fun!  Thanks for keeping it in perspective, DScott.  Did mention this earlier, but really ought to say it again, because, after all, the reason why I shoot is for sport and for fun.  You're right, this really is important!

Was very interested to read each of the comments.  A constant learning process for me.  
Thanks again.

You forgot the "it's fun" reason.   Nothing more important than "fun"!  Right, professor?



That, and I'd suggest leaving the "H" out of your handle next time! [;)]

[:K]

Allright all antisocial parasitic thorns, get your hacksaws out & chop off those flash suppressors! If we just cooperate with Chuckie, Diane, & Teddy, all will be well. They are so much smarter than us, you know. It's for the chidren, dammit!

Yep... after readin more of his work... IMHO = [:K]

McAnnoying's back...

You actually had me believing you were on the level until that last piece of happy horseshit. Obviously, symbolism and substance are above you, as is a grasp of the personalities and beliefs, and reasoning behind them, of the folks on this board.
IMHO, IMNSHO, you're a [:K]
Pit

I'm believe that I've upset the very people that try so hard to upset others.  It appears that although they find it reasonable to deliberately piss people off, they are easily pissed off when someone notices how offensive they are.

As you can see, I've edited my message.

I got some great insight from some of the messages about the symbolism behind the purchase, about the consideration of the weapon as an investment, about the added versatility of a Pre-Ban gun, and I collected opinions regarding the functionality of some of the features.  This is, I think, the only place online where one can get so much information, from so many experienced people, so rapidly.  In short, a fine resource.

I'm sorry that you consider my comments to be trolling.  Your efforts to deliberately upset people, to piss them off, to start them "quivering with disgust when they see my "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL AY-sault weapon" are hurdles set in the way of the gun ownership cause.  You've provided great quotes for those who would choose to forbid our weapons.  These are, I think, terrible things to say.  I'm afraid that more taxes are on the way with this sort of voice howling on our side.

I will purchase a Pre-Ban gun if and when I want to, and will continue to practice with my "lowly commoner" in the mean time.    

IMHO = [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2FBS1%2Egif[/img]

What's upsetting is the way you present you "pronouncements" in a condescending and supercilious manner.  You may have some interesting ideas, but they get lost in the atittude you display.  Nobody likes being spoken down to.

     Thanks Spectre!!!....... I just blew Diet Coke through my nose :) laughing so hard.

takque, I must disagree on this...the A2 birdcage does a substantial job of this on the 16" length.  I'd owned a post-ban Bushy Shorty, and now have a pre-ban M4gery.  South African M193 surplus produced a brilliant orange ball out of the Bushy...not so on the pre-ban.

FWIW, I was fortunate to pick up a used A2 green label back in July (before the 09-11 rush) for $1299.  You can still pick up an old SP1 for reasonable if you look around...change out the upper for whatever you want, and swap the grip and buttstock for something to your liking. All that matters is the pre-ban lower (on a rifle completely assembled prior to 09-94, though this is a whole other thread unto itself). No ridge around the mag release?  I don't think this is a big deal.

Good idea Rik, let's elect the guy who's Dad banned them in the first place, then ummmm...ok running against Al Gore....uhhh well that's no good...lets see uhhh...Is Perot gonna run?

One very important point not yet mentioned...

No (sound) suppressors(aka:"cans", "silencers", etc...)  allowed on a post ban rifle...

Only way to use one is to hang it on the end of a preban...


...Just my 2 cents.

BULLSHIT. There are people in the government whose careers and SINGLE AGENDA are gun control. Mostly that has to do with "getting rid of scary weapons" like AK47s.



It didn't make them apathetic. It encouraged them that they could do more.



NOT ONLY will it get introduced, it will be signed. George Sr. and the REPUBLICAN PARTY created and passed the first "assault weapon" ban with the 89 Import Ban. And you can bet George Jr. will sign the new one due out one month BEFORE the election. He already has said he would sign such a bill.



Not exactly true. But more importantly, their are no postban equivalents for MANY preban rifles. The Republicans got most of them and the Democrats got the rest.

You think they're uncomfortable?

Does anyone else feel this thread was a trollish effort?

SteyerAUG is starting to scare me. He really must have retired from being a fed!

Just not as comfortable as the A2 stock. If it collapses, it is worth the trade off. If not, it is just dumb.

Wow.The academy should take the Oscar away from Denzel and give it to you after that performance.Your problem is not so much your beliefs,which might actually merit an interesting dialogue,but that your condescending attitude and classification of those who deign to be more vocal than you as somehow lower than you is very reminiscent of the attitude with which the antis look upon all gun owners.This is why you've been branded a troll, by quite a few folks, not just me,you'll notice,regardless of your intentions.

If you'd spent a bit more time on this forum, before labeling some of it's members as "defiant sore thumbs" and "inflammatory in nature and repulsive to others" and "unproductive, parasitic thorns" amongst other happy compliments, you'd have realized that other than varying degrees of outspokenness(and I am by far not the most outspoken)the prevailing attitude is pretty much in line with my comments.The message is generally the same, but the delivery is as varying as the makeup of the people on this board,which is a big part of the appeal of this place.Also,since you seem to take every thing 100% literally,a few classes on sarcasm and how to recognize it might be useful.A review of the term "smart-ass", which I am, is in order as well.And to answer one of the more inane questions you posed,No,I don't purposefully display ANY of my weapons to anyone, for any reason,outside of the range or my home.That would not only be foolish, but stupid,for any number of reasons. If someone is curious,or wants to see a firearm,then I am honored to educate them and if they so desire,introduce them to shooting.If not,I am not going to try to foist my belief down their throat,so long as they extend me the same courtesy.
My advice, if you truly want to learn about this place and the black rifle, is to get to know the lay of the land before standing on the high point and pissing all over those you think somehow beneath you, because they don't conform to your idealistic view of how gun owners ought to be, and then wonder why shit suddenly starts flying your way.
And remember this if nothing else: Nothing you or I can say or do will ever make those that wish to infringe our rights despise us any more than they already do, and no amount of placation or compromise, short of total capitulation, will ever satisfy their agenda. If I piss them off, tough shit. They certainly give gun owners no such consideration.

Good luck with pre or post, whatever you have or decide to get, and have fun and be safe...after all, THAT's what this hobby is really all about.

Pit

Pit,
Good posts!

Well put Pit!

The bleeding hearts have been pissing me off for years now.  If they're pissed off that we choose to exercise one of our few remaining freedoms by owning a pre-ban, then tough sh*t!  

I hadn't thought about the legalities of installing suppressors before this thread.  Thanks, Dragracer_Art.  I'll take that into consideration.  Also, will have to run some sort of side-by-side-by-side comparison between rifles with flash hiders, with muzzle breaks, and with nothing installed at the end of the rifle to see if the difference in flash (and sound) is significant.  I haven't seen any reviews.  
I take great pleasure in shooting each of my Post-Ban rifles, and I agree that accumulating all types of AR's is a hobby in itself.  It seems that for many, the natural progression is the purchase of a Pre-Ban carbine that has a collapsible stock, or to an M16.  Haven't been hunting with the rifles yet, but I think that's due to the fact that I haven't got optics installed and because I tend to reach first for the ol' faithful 700's.  I may, as the weather gets warmer, purchase a cheap scope and hit the prairie dog towns nearby, if only for the sake of the horses.  

PitViper:
Why are you spamming this thread with your rants?  I'm not sure why you've chosen to continue to write so much, so often.  If you haven't got anything more to add that sticks to the topic, then please feel free to start another thread that will allow you to fully explain your views.  Elsewhere.  I have been a visitor to this site and to the old version of the site for nearly two years, and have learned that although this site includes among its members experienced, wise, men (and a few women!), the members come from a wide range of backgrounds and express themselves an a wide variety of ways.  I have great respect for the diversity.  You and I may be at extremes, but I do respect your extreme.  If you agree that we are on either end of the same side, if you feel that we all must stick together in our fight against the hands that creep towards our common interest, if you agree that we all must stick together in a fight for rights, then you'll show some respect and buzz off.

Obviously not.
But we agree on one thing...I've wasted far too much of my time on such a self-important troll. Enjoy your thread, such as it is.
Pit

Why needlessly self-centered trollish posting?



Why are you so unwilling to read the very well thought out criticism by a member who obviously is in better standing than you?



You're a fine one to talk.  I had trouble wading through the vitriolic crap repeated over and over in your posts to get an idea of what you are trying to say.

What we have here is a current member trolling incognito OR a former/banned member trolling after he got a new ISP(or is using the homeless shelters system).  Either way, you guys are biting that baited hook like a dumb bass !!

We know. But it does give us a chance to discuss the merits of pre vs. post ban and point out some specifics people may not have known or thought about.