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Posted: 4/15/2010 6:41:27 AM EDT
A common thread among Libertarian detracters is that Libertarians do not support services like Police and Fire departments.
Please discuss the accuracy of this line of thought. 
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Posted: 4/15/2010 6:45:45 AM EDT
[#1]
Wait- I thought Fire Depts. were inherently socialist in nature?
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Posted: 4/15/2010 6:48:58 AM EDT
[#2]
If that's their line of thinking, I'm thinking they may just be another group of fringe tards. Or I don't know what a Libertarian really is. How are they on hospitals?
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Posted: 4/15/2010 6:49:30 AM EDT
[#3]
Taggity
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Posted: 4/15/2010 6:50:08 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: If that's their line of thinking, I'm thinking they may just be another group of fringe tards. Or I don't no what a Libertarian really is. Know, you don't no what a Libertarian really is. A lot of folks don't, including Libertarians themselves...
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Posted: 4/15/2010 6:52:57 AM EDT
[#5]
The founding fathers started the Fire Department as voluntary. There was a reason it was...
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Posted: 4/15/2010 6:55:11 AM EDT
[#6]
I am mostly in line with Nozick.
1) military 2) local protection (police and fire) 3) courts |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 6:55:45 AM EDT
[#7]
There's a sub-group of libertarians who believe these services should be private companies rather than government services.
They're actually pretty rare, tend to be young folks who haven't given it a lot of thought, a phenomenon that's not unique to libertarianism. Interestingly one very common related issue among conservatives and libertarians is a dislike for property taxes, which is really the only fair way to fund a public fire service and works pretty well for police and schools as well. This is one of the reasons the Libertarian party has so much trouble getting itself off the ground BTW, nobody really wants to do away with local services like fire, police, and schools, so it makes it difficult to build a party based on drastic reductions in government from the bottom up. Lots of libertarians really believe in federalism, want local government relatively strong compared to the federal, so shrinking local government is actually counterproductive. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 6:59:41 AM EDT
[#8]
I think Libertarians would want competition for city contracts by private fire-fighting companies.
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:00:12 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
There's a sub-group of libertarians who believe these services should be private companies rather than government services. They're actually pretty rare, tend to be young folks who haven't given it a lot of thought, a phenomenon that's not unique to libertarianism. Interestingly one very common related issue among conservatives and libertarians is a dislike for property taxes, which is really the only fair way to fund a public fire service and works pretty well for police and schools as well. This is one of the reasons the Libertarian party has so much trouble getting itself off the ground BTW, nobody really wants to do away with local services like fire, police, and schools, so it makes it difficult to build a party based on drastic reductions in government from the bottom up. Lots of libertarians really believe in federalism, want local government relatively strong compared to the federal, so shrinking local government is actually counterproductive. If you listen to the most popular libertarians... people like Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand. They both believe that government should only be Military, Police, and Courts. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:00:49 AM EDT
[#10]
Minarchism
Anarchocapitalism |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:01:15 AM EDT
[#11]
As a libertarian I have no issue with the fire department, as long as it isn't funded with federal dollars. Libertarians want a federal government that opperates stricty within the boundaries of the constitution. Local governemnts are free to offer whatever services that the voters approve. Government power is suppost to be concentrated closest to the people(local gov)
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:03:44 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: If that's their line of thinking, I'm thinking they may just be another group of fringe tards. Or I don't know what a Libertarian really is. How are they on hospitals? You don't know what a Libertarian is. Most support basic civil services such as courts, fire, police, public health, etc.; in other words, the minimum number of government agencies required to ensure that society functions smoothly and everyone's rights are protected. What most Libertarians don't like are the government agencies whcih try to ensure that no one fails. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:03:53 AM EDT
[#13]
Liberterians want a decentralized government. That is the meaning behind 'small government'... Fire departments are OK but the federal government shouldn't control them. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:08:02 AM EDT
[#14]
I consider myself a "small l" libertarian. There's nothing wrong with a local municipality getting together and deciding things for themselves, such as schools, fire, police, EMS, etc...
That is the very definition of a decentralized government built from the bottom up, not the top down. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:11:17 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
There's a sub-group of libertarians who believe these services should be private companies rather than government services. They're actually pretty rare, tend to be young folks who haven't given it a lot of thought, a phenomenon that's not unique to libertarianism. Interestingly one very common related issue among conservatives and libertarians is a dislike for property taxes, which is really the only fair way to fund a public fire service and works pretty well for police and schools as well. This is one of the reasons the Libertarian party has so much trouble getting itself off the ground BTW, nobody really wants to do away with local services like fire, police, and schools, so it makes it difficult to build a party based on drastic reductions in government from the bottom up. Lots of libertarians really believe in federalism, want local government relatively strong compared to the federal, so shrinking local government is actually counterproductive. If you listen to the most popular libertarians... people like Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand. They both believe that government should only be Military, Police, and Courts. More fundamentaly libertarian philosphy holds that governments role is to do only what is necessary and sufficient to preserve and defend the rights of the citizenry, there's a lot of room for debate about how much is necessary and sufficient. Fire service is brought up as a crtique of libertarianism precisely because it's a difficult issue for libertarians, but there are property rights issues involved either way. A lot of us libertarians believe fire service is within the purvue of the local democratic process, while stuff like welfare is not. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:13:08 AM EDT
[#16]
I'm a libertarian. I'm on my local vollie fire department.
I need to quit now? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:14:02 AM EDT
[#17]
What you're describing is anarchocapitalism. AKA, 'fuckup libertarians'.
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:18:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
What you're describing is anarchocapitalism. AKA, 'fuckup libertarians'. It's not anarchocapitalism. There is no such thing as anarchocapitalism... It is called capitalism plain and simple. Total free market with no regulation and the freedom for people to go out and pursue whatever they want. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:19:37 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What you're describing is anarchocapitalism. AKA, 'fuckup libertarians'. It's not anarchocapitalism. There is no such thing as anarchocapitalism... It is called capitalism plain and simple. Total free market with no regulation and the freedom for people to go out and pursue whatever they want. No. Just... no. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:20:42 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
I consider myself a "small l" libertarian. There's nothing wrong with a local municipality getting together and deciding things for themselves, such as schools, fire, police, EMS, etc... That is the very definition of a decentralized government built from the bottom up, not the top down. Bingo. My fire department is all-volunteer and paid for by donations. It's actually one of the few things around here that's done properly. Although, the department is about 135 years old and hasn't changed a thing except equipment. Still in the same brick firehouse, which is pretty cool. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:21:09 AM EDT
[#21]
Private fire departments would probably be cheaper, think about all the benefits government employees get that their private sector counterparts do not.
Private companies contract to cover neighborhoods and apply a user fee upon use. Un-involving government virtually anywhere usually helps things. Apply the same thing to garbage and sanitation too. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:27:28 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What you're describing is anarchocapitalism. AKA, 'fuckup libertarians'. It's not anarchocapitalism. There is no such thing as anarchocapitalism... It is called capitalism plain and simple. Total free market with no regulation and the freedom for people to go out and pursue whatever they want. No. Just... no. What? Explain to me what this anarchocapitalism thing is that you just made up... |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:33:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Private fire departments would probably be cheaper, think about all the benefits government employees get that their private sector counterparts do not. Private companies contract to cover neighborhoods and apply a user fee upon use. Un-involving government virtually anywhere usually helps things. Apply the same thing to garbage and sanitation too. How do we get the government out of the government? |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:35:25 AM EDT
[#24]
I happen to like how it is done in my county.
The county divided into fire districts. The citizens of each district choose how to run their FD, at what level, and how much taxes are paid in each district. For example where my store sits, the department is run by a board. Half of the seats on the board are members of the department, elected by the members for that job. The other half are taxpayers (property owners) that live in the district, elected at an annual public meeting. The public meeting is anounced and open for all, where board members are elected and the budget is reviewed. Before any major budget changes are made or new purchases done (like a new truck) the board must approve and a public meeting is helld. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:35:33 AM EDT
[#25]
I consider myself a Libertarian but work for the FD.
I see no conflict of interest. We have two paid departments in this city, one is private and the other is a City service. There is no comparison between the two. Ben Franklin was instrumental in the creation of Fire Departments. While they were subscription based fire protection. You had your property marked, and when the firemen showed up, if you didn't subscribe to their service, the prevented the spread of fire to the homes of those who did. While your's burned to the ground. Useless trivia here: The term hook and ladder came from the practice of fastening big rings to the peak of the roof for the "hook" to pull a burning structure down and away from it's neighbors. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:50:00 AM EDT
[#26]
I know i'm not against property taxes, I'm against HIGH property taxes.
I pay for public schools, that I will never ever send my children to. Our school has a miserable graduation rate, so am I really seeing ANY benefit to my taxes? We also have a library that is spending $7m to 'upgrade' their facility , for a town of only 12,000 people. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:59:08 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
A common thread among Libertarian detracters is that Libertarians do not support services like Police and Fire departments. Please discuss the accuracy of this line of thought. http://i.imgur.com/D7cNY.jpg lack of understanding basic principles of a subject always makes someone look like a goon... and of course, I speak about the creator of the bit and not the OP of the thread... There is no confusion amongst people that actually read about a subject, the Libertarians are all about out of control Federal gov. not state gov. We are not anarchists... we just are not stupid enough to think that the two clown parties are actualy going to do anything different than they have for generations. That two clown parties that have played games at our expense, that have convinced the duller of our society to believe there is any real difference between the two. sheeple come in many different coats |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 8:08:55 AM EDT
[#28]
I consider myself a Libertarian.
I have no problems with gov't fire departments so long as they exist on a municipal level and operate with the consent of the people in that municipality. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 8:34:22 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
There's a sub-group of libertarians who believe these services should be private companies rather than government services. They're actually pretty rare, tend to be young folks who haven't given it a lot of thought, a phenomenon that's not unique to libertarianism. Interestingly one very common related issue among conservatives and libertarians is a dislike for property taxes, which is really the only fair way to fund a public fire service and works pretty well for police and schools as well. This is one of the reasons the Libertarian party has so much trouble getting itself off the ground BTW, nobody really wants to do away with local services like fire, police, and schools, so it makes it difficult to build a party based on drastic reductions in government from the bottom up. Lots of libertarians really believe in federalism, want local government relatively strong compared to the federal, so shrinking local government is actually counterproductive. How about we argue the logic rather than just attacking the arguer as not having thought it through? Fire and rescue are services. If you want to procure goods and services, BY FAR the most reliable and efficient sector to go to is the private (for profit) sector. Greed brings out the best in people when they satisfy it by honest trade. That being so, most of us still buy those services through tax funded organizations. I don't know why that is. Taxes are used by the department, to pay individual firemen (who are in effect, one man businesses) to fight fires. Is there some reason you can't hire a company to do what you can hire a politician and a bunch of bureaucrats to fuck up? Libertarians tend to bet that in most cases, a given dollar input will buy more and better stuff from a business than it will from a bureaucrat. That doesn't stop at cops and firemen unless you can show me a concrete reason why it should. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 8:39:33 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: I'm a libertarian. I'm on my local vollie fire department. I need to quit now? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yes. Didn't you know libertarians are fucking weird and goofy? You should have, because you're a libertarian. 
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Posted: 4/15/2010 8:40:25 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Quoted: I'm a libertarian. I'm on my local vollie fire department. I need to quit now? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yes. Didn't you know libertarians are fucking weird and goofy? You should have, because you're a libertarian. So are vollies. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 8:51:53 AM EDT
[#32]
As long as they get their pot they don't care whether Fire Departments exist or not.
Or even whether their job is to put out fires or burn books. It is all about the POT.   (Picture: Libertarian Party candidate Krista Zoobkoff outside her Canmore hemp store) Yes, I do know.  But it still fits perfectly. A socialist is a socialist and a Libertarian is a Libertarian.  |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 8:54:05 AM EDT
[#33]
some areas do have private fire departments. If you do not pay your yearly 100 or whatever they will show up, make sure you are all out safe and watch your house burn down while they make sure it does not spread to any paying members properties.
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Posted: 4/15/2010 8:56:53 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
There's a sub-group of libertarians who believe these services should be private companies rather than government services. They're actually pretty rare, tend to be young folks who haven't given it a lot of thought, a phenomenon that's not unique to libertarianism. Interestingly one very common related issue among conservatives and libertarians is a dislike for property taxes, which is really the only fair way to fund a public fire service and works pretty well for police and schools as well. This is one of the reasons the Libertarian party has so much trouble getting itself off the ground BTW, nobody really wants to do away with local services like fire, police, and schools, so it makes it difficult to build a party based on drastic reductions in government from the bottom up. Lots of libertarians really believe in federalism, want local government relatively strong compared to the federal, so shrinking local government is actually counterproductive. How about we argue the logic rather than just attacking the arguer as not having thought it through? Fire and rescue are services. If you want to procure goods and services, BY FAR the most reliable and efficient sector to go to is the private (for profit) sector. Greed brings out the best in people when they satisfy it by honest trade. That being so, most of us still buy those services through tax funded organizations. I don't know why that is. Taxes are used by the department, to pay individual firemen (who are in effect, one man businesses) to fight fires. Is there some reason you can't hire a company to do what you can hire a politician and a bunch of bureaucrats to fuck up? Libertarians tend to bet that in most cases, a given dollar input will buy more and better stuff from a business than it will from a bureaucrat. That doesn't stop at cops and firemen unless you can show me a concrete reason why it should. You're right, that was a poorly expressed thought, and there are a number of ways private enterprise could meet the needs of a community in terms of fire and life safety. The issue isn't as simple as some folks who object to all government involvement in fire safety make it out to be however, and those folks who haven't given the issue a lot of thought have often made foolish arguments on the subject. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 8:57:19 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm a libertarian. I'm on my local vollie fire department. I need to quit now? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yes. Didn't you know libertarians are fucking weird and goofy? You should have, because you're a libertarian. So are vollies. a lot of truth to this. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:02:26 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There's a sub-group of libertarians who believe these services should be private companies rather than government services. They're actually pretty rare, tend to be young folks who haven't given it a lot of thought, a phenomenon that's not unique to libertarianism. Interestingly one very common related issue among conservatives and libertarians is a dislike for property taxes, which is really the only fair way to fund a public fire service and works pretty well for police and schools as well. This is one of the reasons the Libertarian party has so much trouble getting itself off the ground BTW, nobody really wants to do away with local services like fire, police, and schools, so it makes it difficult to build a party based on drastic reductions in government from the bottom up. Lots of libertarians really believe in federalism, want local government relatively strong compared to the federal, so shrinking local government is actually counterproductive. If you listen to the most popular libertarians... people like Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand. They both believe that government should only be Military, Police, and Courts. More fundamentaly libertarian philosphy holds that governments role is to do only what is necessary and sufficient to preserve and defend the rights of the citizenry, there's a lot of room for debate about how much is necessary and sufficient. Fire service is brought up as a crtique of libertarianism precisely because it's a difficult issue for libertarians, but there are property rights issues involved either way. A lot of us libertarians believe fire service is within the purvue of the local democratic process, while stuff like welfare is not. Agreed. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:08:04 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
As long as they get their pot they don't care whether Fire Departments exist or not. Or even whether their job is to put out fires or burn books. It is all about the POT. http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DSBe3y9bUtg/SpncXDDFm7I/AAAAAAAACBI/3B036iPpp50/s800/MMI_Stitch_Logo_Circle_Badge_Transp_No_Canvas_120_x_120.png http://www.havelshouseofhistory.com/Clifton,%20John%20Button%201.jpg (Picture: Libertarian Party candidate Krista Zoobkoff outside her Canmore hemp store) Yes, I do know.
http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/images/2008/09/25/krista_zoobkoff_2.jpg Horse hockey. There are plenty of purely pro-pot types who learn that the LP is against the WOD and in favor of legalization, and latch on for that reason alone, but that by no means describes all (or most) Libertarians, any more than an anti-gun pro-entitlement person who happens to be vehemently against abortion and joins the RP describes all republicans. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:12:30 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
There's a sub-group of libertarians who believe these services should be private companies rather than government services. They're actually pretty rare, tend to be young folks who haven't given it a lot of thought, a phenomenon that's not unique to libertarianism. Interestingly one very common related issue among conservatives and libertarians is a dislike for property taxes, which is really the only fair way to fund a public fire service and works pretty well for police and schools as well. This is one of the reasons the Libertarian party has so much trouble getting itself off the ground BTW, nobody really wants to do away with local services like fire, police, and schools, so it makes it difficult to build a party based on drastic reductions in government from the bottom up. Lots of libertarians really believe in federalism, want local government relatively strong compared to the federal, so shrinking local government is actually counterproductive. Paid Firefighter companies started out working for insurance companies. There was generally a marking on your house/business with the insurance companies designated marking. If your house was not covered by the responding insurance company, they let it burn until yours got there. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:14:46 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
some areas do have private fire departments. If you do not pay your yearly 100 or whatever they will show up, make sure you are all out safe and watch your house burn down while they make sure it does not spread to any paying members properties. Considering the vast majority of fire calls are for car accidents/sick or injured/etc...and very few are actual fires...what does the fire department ems do when someone is traveling through a particular jurisdiction where they have not payed for the private service? What happens when a kid needs rescue and will die without assistance and his parents have not paid their due/fee/bill for Fire protection? As Ranger said above in Ben Franklin's day....I understand that and will take it at face value...but that was when the Fire Department just put out fires...much more simple answer... Anyway, point being, again as other have pointed out....Libertarians want a smaller Federal Gov and more state and local control.....Local taxes ought to go to provide for Fire Departments I think running them as a purely private enterprise would produce some extreme challenges. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:14:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: ...people like Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand. They both believe that government should only be Military, Police, and Courts. I'm not a libertarian but I agree with Rand on the nature of a proper government, including that fire departments should be private enterprises. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:15:00 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm a libertarian. I'm on my local vollie fire department. I need to quit now? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yes. Didn't you know libertarians are fucking weird and goofy? You should have, because you're a libertarian. So are vollies. Now THAT'S funny. 
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:16:32 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
As long as they get their pot they don't care whether Fire Departments exist or not. Or even whether their job is to put out fires or burn books. It is all about the POT. BS... you know this isnt true so stop spouting this garbage. thats like saying all republicans care about is blank (and then posting such pictures) be it abortion, guns, white supremacy, gay mariage etc etc. just stop it. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:19:55 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: A common thread among Libertarian detracters is that Libertarians do not support services like Police and Fire departments. Please discuss the accuracy of this line of thought. http://i.imgur.com/D7cNY.jpg TOTALLY true... wait till you hear these nuts argue that we don't need a national military to protect us  . Afterall no one would ever want to attack a rich, libertarian nation! And if they did, we have guys with AR15s who can't even afford plane tickets to Afghanistan to protect us.
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:20:49 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: If that's their line of thinking, I'm thinking they may just be another group of fringe tards. Or I don't know what a Libertarian really is. How are they on hospitals? They believe they should exist, but should be allowed to charge whatever they want, and turn away whoever they want for whatever reason they want. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:24:17 AM EDT
[#45]
My gist I get from most libertarians is this... Give them all the pot they want (Soma) and they will GLADLY give up their guns.... and all the other rights they claim to care about.
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:28:43 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Private fire departments would probably be cheaper, think about all the benefits government employees get that their private sector counterparts do not. Private companies contract to cover neighborhoods and apply a user fee upon use. Un-involving government virtually anywhere usually helps things. Apply the same thing to garbage and sanitation too. How do we get the government out of the government? Well they figure, since there is a bit of corruption within our own government... and people take bribes... might as well have the ENTIRE SYSTEM work off of corruption and just adopt a PRIVATE Court system, PRIVATE Police force, etc. Whenever you argue the obvious, that then the courts will be corrupt and rule in favor of the guy with the bigger check... they just argue "thats what ALREADY happens". Hmm Interesting, so because corruption happens now and then, ... we might as well allow it on a wide-scale basis! Anarcho-Capitalists = MORONS
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:29:26 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
1) military 2) local protection (police and fire) 3) courts |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:30:38 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
My gist I get from most libertarians is this... Give them all the pot they want (Soma) and they will GLADLY give up their guns.... and all the other rights they claim to care about. then I would say that you dont know any libertarians i would say thats like saying I know some christians, and then when I ask them if they go to church, they say "no" do they believe in god and they say "i guess so".. guess what, they arent chrisitans |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:31:53 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: As long as they get their pot they don't care whether Fire Departments exist or not. Or even whether their job is to put out fires or burn books. It is all about the POT. http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DSBe3y9bUtg/SpncXDDFm7I/AAAAAAAACBI/3B036iPpp50/s800/MMI_Stitch_Logo_Circle_Badge_Transp_No_Canvas_120_x_120.png http://www.havelshouseofhistory.com/Clifton,%20John%20Button%201.jpg (Picture: Libertarian Party candidate Krista Zoobkoff outside her Canmore hemp store) Yes, I do know. But it still fits perfectly. A socialist is a socialist and a Libertarian is a Libertarian.http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/images/2008/09/25/krista_zoobkoff_2.jpg http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb171/sherrick13/Marijuanax1-2.jpg If you believe in liberty and the constitution, who else do you vote for? Don't like pot? don't smoke it. The choice is called freedom. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:33:51 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
My gist I get from most libertarians is this... Give them all the pot they want (Soma) and they will GLADLY give up their guns.... and all the other rights they claim to care about. Wow, you should send this thread to the brady campaign to see if you can get a job there. Seems like you would be perfect for their media arm. |
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