[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020321/ap_on_re_us/wisconsin_dog_attack_5[/url]

Wis. Couple Charged in Dog Attack
Thu Mar 21,10:22 AM ET
By SARAH WYATT, Associated Press Writer

MAUSTON, Wis. (AP) - On Valentine's Day (news - web sites), 10-year-old Alicia Lynn Clark was at a friend's house doing one of her favorite things: playing with the family's dogs.

Hours later, she was mortally wounded, the victim of a vicious mauling by six Rottweilers that had answered her affection with violence.

The dogs' owners, who were not home during the attack, have been charged in the case, which echoes a dog mauling in San Francisco last year that left a woman dead. The owners in that case are on trial for charges ranging from murder to keeping a mischievous dog.

According to authorities, Alicia was pulled from a living room couch, dragged from room to room and bitten to death — despite her 11-year-old friend's attempts to kick and pull the animals away.

After about 15 minutes, Alicia lay on the dining room floor as her friend sat by her, keeping the dogs away, while waiting for her mother, Shanda McCracken, and McCracken's boyfriend, Wayne Hardy, to get home, a criminal complaint said.

Hardy, 24, and McCracken, 32, were charged with being parties to several crimes: homicide resulting from a vicious animal, reckless endangerment and child neglect.

Hardy and McCracken pleaded innocent to the misdemeanor counts of child neglect, but did not enter pleas to the felony charges. They were released on $10,000 bonds. Both declined comment on the case as they left the courthouse Wednesday.

District Attorney Dennis Schuh said the homicide count was chosen, rather than a stiffer charge, because it best fit the evidence. The charge carries a maximum 15-year sentence.

Authorities cited witnesses who said Hardy and McCracken told them the dogs were very aggressive. A health specialist who visited the home after the attack told police the furniture had been chewed and there were piles of dog feces throughout the home.

"I know I shouldn't have had all those dogs there. ... I know it was wrong to do. She was just a little girl," Hardy told police the day of the attack, according to the criminal complaint.

The dogs had also nipped at both girls in the past and killed a cat two months before the attack, McCracken's daughter told police. The dogs were euthanized after the mauling.

Cont.

Hardy's lawyer, Daniel Berkos, filed a motion to dismiss the charges against his client.

"What we're maintaining is that there was no knowledge on anybody's part that these dogs were vicious," Berkos said. "I don't think that nipping at somebody in a playful manner or as a puppy would constitute knowledge that a dog is capable of something like this."

Alicia, described by residents as a sweet, bashful and athletic fourth-grader, was looking forward to her first cheerleading meet and a father-daughter bowling outing with her Girl Scout troop.

Her friend told police Alicia was petting one of four 6-month-old puppies in the home when one of the two adult dogs apparently got jealous and started attacking.

When the animals were removed from the home they were coated in blood, according to the vet who examined them.

McCracken faces up to 38 years in prison if convicted of all charges. Hardy faces up to 72 years in prison because he has prior felony convictions for burglary and being a felon in possession of a firearm. Both face up to a $70,000 fine.

Hardy's preliminary hearing was set for April 16. McCracken's next court date is June 4.

Police also cited Hardy for owning more than three dogs, having unlicensed dogs, having no proof of a dog's vaccination and having animal feces in his yard.

Alicia's parents, James Clark and Tammy Shiflett, have filed a wrongful death claim against Juneau County, claiming authorities failed to investigate reports of dog abuse that could have led to the discovery (news - web sites) that the owners were keeping six dogs in their residence in violation of a city ordinance.

Alicia's parents also filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Hardy and McCracken.

The attack has left residents in the city of 1,500 shaken, and many people who live in the area said they were not surprised by the severity of the charges.

"Amen," said Gary Jensen, 48, of nearby Tomah. "I think that's fair and just."

As an owner of 4 adult Rotties, (2 of whom must be kept apart), I am utterly appalled at the irresponsibility of this dog owner.
To allow 2 small girls to be left in charge of this many powerful animals is sheer madness.
Rotties can be very good with children, but must be carefully supervised, as games can turn rough, without being mean.
It also sounds like these dogs were not at all socialized enough with children, or even trained well to adults. And having pups there only added to the tension.
As usual, the breed takes the bad rap, but at least this time, the owners get to share the blame. Keeping a Rottie is like keeping a loaded gun. If you need it, it is invaluable, but you MUST take responsibility for it!
Many Rotties have actually saved children's lives before, but as any Rottie owner knows, there are rules which must not be broken.
Unfortunately, this young child paid with her life for the dog owners' negligence.
A Rottie attack is like a negligent discharge of a firearm, if the rules had been followed, no one would have been hurt.
How utterly tragic and preventable.

Sorry if I offend some of you dog owners, but here goes.

Your an idiot to own such a species.  Having them around is like driving around with "sweating" dynamite.  Sooner or later they will go off. There is absolutely no sense in having an animal that is even remotely capable of attacking a human.  This is both insane and irresponsible.  I say throw the book at them.

I have a very gentile black lab.  If she were to ever show any sign of aggression, she would be gone.  I love her to death but it's just not worth risking human life.  

Well, maybe it would be ok if the victom were a liberal.....

Ooops, sorry.  I mean it's just not acceptable to have a dog that could cause harm.  You disagree?  Compare that to racial profiling.  If you know someone is statistically causing/participating in crime, wouldn't you watch them closer?

I just put my flame suit on.

Deer Slayer. Your argument sounds eerily similar to the anti-gunners reasoning. [shock]

Well someone already beat me to the punch. Deerslayer your and IDIOT!

Post from Wolfpack -

Yes, I suppose that's the way such things should be handled. It's just an added cost of keeping certain breeds of dogs that have a history of hurting and even killing children.

I don't know if that insurance questionnaire has gotten around to asking if you keep firearms in the house or not, and charging a premium in the event that you do.

I suppose I have already told you folks about the guy that lives down from my daughter's farm, who keeps 3 or four Chows around - and let's them run loose.

My four year old granddaughter and I were outside once playing on her trampoline, when two of these dogs came into the back yard.

It scared the crap outta both of us, cause they just stopped and looked directly at us.

They didn't move until I reached into my waistband and racked a .40 round into my Glock! Then they skedaddled. It shook me up more than I wanted to let onto my granddaughter, but, suffice it to say, I had a long talk with my daughter and now Kristin can't go into her own back yard to play without [b]armed[/b] adult supervision!

That never happened to me when I was a kid. We didn't have anything worse than a German Shephard, and they were fairly tolerable.

Now we have breeds that were designed and bred to hunt lions and tigers and bears. (O my!)

One of REALERIC's kids, the 5 year old, had to have 30 stitches in his head about a year ago, when an adult Chow tried to walk off with him, holding him by the head.

Such dogs are not really fit to be pets. Period.

And don't give me the gun rights equivalency routine.

That dog won't hunt around here![:D]

Eric The(DogLover,ChildWorshipper)Hun[>]:)]

I just posted this on another thread but I'll post it here too. I'll preface it with the fact that I am a lifelong dog lover and owner.

One of my friends - his dog attacked another friend, messed up her face for life. After the attack, my friend (the dog's owner) took the dog outside and shot it dead with a 45. This is what you must do to dog's that attack people.

I'm going to side with deerslayer on this one. I've got a dog and next to my wife she is my best friend. I would risk my life for her just as I would for anyone else in my family.

BUT, German Sheperds, Dobermans, Rotweilers, and Pit bulls were bred for only one reason. To be aggressive, powerful and potentially deadly. To have one is to accept a very large responsibility. People get into these breeds accepting this, IMO. If your dog mauls or kills someone you are going to have to accept the responsibility, especially if a child is harmed. Now, I can see the parallels with what the anti-gunners say except for one fact:

A gun doesn't just jump up one day all by its lonesome and decide to kill someone.

I would say the same thing about creating machines of war that could decide on their own when aand where to kill someone.

BIG NEGATIVE on your argument. I own a female rottie & have several friends who have rotties... the only rottie I have ever known (of my friends) to be hostile was left outside all the time tied to a post. That is cruelity beyond comprehension as rotties in particular are VERY family oriented. The key is understanding dogs & their phycological make-up. Dogs are pack animals. If you have a dog, you must be the alpha male & the dog MUST be the omega- to eveyone in your house. Next, you need to raise & condition a dog from 6 to 8 weeks of age to the last days of life. Training is IMPERATIVE. Beyond that, I would never leave ANY dog alone with ANY child.
Dogs in packs (like humans) will have a change in attitude. They are instictive hunters in packs, so don't have a pack all together at once. I accept full responsibility for my dogs actions & she understands who is the "giver & taker" of life in my house - not her! I would never leave a loaded gun laying around where children can get it, but others do & kids die. Same with alcohol, car keys, draino, etc... Assess the risk, & contain it. If you can't control it, don't have it. Some folks shouldn't have dull scissors, as bad as parents as they are...
Last of all: The media loves to play senational stories, like boa constrictors & rottweilers eating the kids. We're gun owners, where did the common sense go? Small dogs such as sled dogs (40 lbs)& cocker spaniels account for way more attacks on children than do rottweilers. No more sled dogs in Alaska?!?
Punish the guilty, but don't ban (assualt rifles, rotties, hi-cap mags, horses(kill vets more than dogs kill kids), snakes, fast cars, alcohol, etc...) because some criminal gets in the news.

With all respect, if the dog is on your property, is loose (not on a leash) & is behaving aggressive, I don't see what prevented you from shooting it. I know, your neighbor would likely sue you, but he'd more likely (if he gave a sh!t about his dogs)to keep his dogs home in the future.
My neighbor has a 7 yr old German Sheperd & a 3 yr old husky mix. The german was never more than a nuisance barker until the Husky showed up. The Husky (male)led the female german on many a chase after kids & neighbors pets - on the victims property - not on their property. They chased my dog ONCE. I trained her not to bark, not to fight, not to attack. Only to alert. She has been extensively socialized. I secured her from the threat, & called my neighor. When they didn't handle the problem, I called animal control, filed a complaint & after the third complaint the Husky was gone. Last I heard, they had it put down. I talked with my neighbor long & seriously about the responsibilty of dog ownership. She responded that it was her 16 yr old sons dog. I responded that she owns the home & she's the one looking at a potential lawsuit. This goes for ANY breed allowed to run FREE. Keep your dogs tied up or they may not get home.
 Higher insr. because you own a certain breed? The anti-gun lobby wants higher cost on ammo, firearms & more taxes to pay for criminal activity (gunshot victims). This is punishing people PRIOR to commiting an offense & including many innocent people in the punishment of a few guilty.
Let's remember that we're in America, not Amerika.

Now time for another story concerning a dog attacking a child.

One of the young ladies who works with a law firm that I know very well, and who works in the same building as I do, had a child bitten by a dog several years ago.

It seems that she and her then-two year old little girl went to visit my friend's mother in law. As the little girl stood on the front porch just about to give her grandmother a big hug, the grandmother's Pomeranian comes running up from the den, leaps on the little girl and bites her on the face. Then scampers back to the den.

Of course the little girl was frightened, her mother was alarmed, and the grandmother was beside herself with grief. The little two year old girl had to have stitches.

This all occurred around 10:00, AM.

Later that day, my friend, the mother of the little girl, came into my office and informed me that her mother in law had taken the dog to the vet to have it put to sleep!

Jeepers, I thought, that's just a tad bit of overreacting, IMHO. Put the dog to sleep? Wow!

Well, anyway, about two or three years later, my friend brought her beautiful little girl to work with her one day. The little girl was by this time about five years old.

Cutest little face you ever did see....well, except for the two inch scar on her cheek, and the missing piece of flesh on her lip. I'm told that she will one day have some plastic surgery that will make her look almost as good as before. Almost.

Eric The(TheOldLadyDidTheRightThing!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Rotti -

My little granddaughter is only four years old and loves dogs with a passion. There was no reason for me to blow these two dogs away in front of her and traumatize the hell out of her. They kept some distance, but they [u]were[/u] closer to us than we were the house!

As it is, the scene served a very useful and educational purpose.

Before this event, my granddaughter would always ask me, 'Why do you have a gun, Granddaddy?' And I'd always tell her that it was to protect our family.

But the fact that she kept asking, made me think she may not have completely understood what I meant by protecting our family.

After this incident, when we go anywhere, she always asks 'Granddaddy, do have your gun with you?'

'Yes, Princess, you know I do.' Her eyes just twinkle with delight knowing that Granddaddy can protect her from [u]anything[/u]!

Hell, I live and breath lawsuits. I excrete lawsuits. Another one would just be odd 'cause it had [u]my[/u] name on the jacket.

By the time I finished with that fellow, he'd shoot his remaining dogs and move outta the County!

Eric The(Course,That'sJustMe)Hun[>]:)]

Eric, I agree that the lady did the right thing. I just don't like the liberal media fanning the flames of emotional response, urging everthing to be banned because 1% to 10% of the time something happens. The animal control folks would never have to put my rottie down if the unthinkable happened, as I made the decision at the time I took the responsibilty of dog ownership to eleminate the dog if she should ever commit any violent action, especially a child.
 Perspective: I have 5 beautiful nieces & 3 very cool little nephews. They all KNOW that they are not permitted to be with my dog with out my constant supervision, inspite of her extensive training & model behavior. Just as I don't let them have the keys to my ATV or let them play in the woods behind my house (I have more black bears & some brown bears in my area, & plenty of moose).
I understand your concern for children very much. I also believe that any responsible adult in a child's family should TEACH that child about safety.
 Most of all, if a PET owner is negligent (according to law), then that PET owner should bear FULL responsibilty for their negligence - ALONE.
God bless America, free speech & the right to pursue happiness!
- no ill will against any of you on the other side of this subject, just hope that you're as receptive to our (PET owners) viewpoint as we want/ hope for anti's to be in 2nd Amendment rights discussions...  

I hope these people face the full wrath of the law if guilty!  Just like the idots in the PRK.

I have never understood why people tolerate vicious dogs let alone encourage them to be aggressive.  Such dogs are dangerous and should not be loose around people.

I am sure as hell NOT anti-gun.  I do, however, take responsibility for my guns and keeping them away from those who may misuse them.  I feel the same applies to dog owners!

I have shot strange dogs that have come on my property and threatened me and will do so again if necessary.  I will not be threatened on my own property by people OR dogs!  I do not enjoy killing dogs, or anything else for that matter, but I will defend myself if I must.

I remember a mean German Shepard that lived next door when I was growing up.  Darn dog bit me - through the fence while I was mowing.  Dad took over mowing- after strapping on a SW 38spl.  Dog owner came out and made a major stink so pop explained how dumb it was putting the mouth on an armed man.  End of problem - we thought.  Couple weeks later dog got out of yard and attacked young girl a few houses away.  Really cut her up.  Girl's dad was big sucker - and pissed.  Knocked on owners door and cold cocked him when he opened it, right through the screen!!  When he woke up, girl's dad handed him a ball bat and said he was going to watch him beat the dog to death or the bat would be used on him; his choice.  He beat the dog to death.  No cops, no lawsuits; merely small town justice.

You guys who are equating dogs and guns are making a specious argument. A gun is an inanimate object. It doesn't have an innate aggressiveness or one that has been bred into it for thousands of years.

As everything else, there are exceptions, but I'm confident in saying that people who own Rotties, pit bulls, Akitas, etc...chose those breeds because they like the idea of controlling an aggressive, powerful animal. The idea of being some sort of master of beasts is an attraction for many, and there's nothing wrong with that. Sadly and evidently, that's a role not all are qualified to be. The owners of the 6 Rotties and the owners of the Presas deserve the full punishment of the law. If any of you think the California punishment is overkill, you're either not paying full attention to the case, or you've developed a twisted sense of selective humanity.

Back to equating guns and dogs, consider this scenario: You own a gun and have a child. You're a cowboy with the gun, waving it around the house, playing with it, and think it's a hoot when your child copies you with his toy gun. You know what I'm gonna say next. One day the kid takes the gun, plays around and kills someone. Who's responsible? Both you and your kid. Same thing with dog owners who get off on holding the leash of a vicious 120lbs dog and loves the fact that he/she is the master of this aggressive beast. You're responsible, and your dog deserves to be killed and you deserve to do time.

I had a pit, Buster, with an ex-gf. Greatest dog in the world. We didn't roughhouse with it and did nothing else to bring forth the natural aggressiveness of that dog. It was loving and never exhibited any dangerous tendencies around anyone, but that dog was never off the leash around other dogs in the park, and it was never around people without me standing right there.

Sometimes I wished I had done the same with the ex-gf....[:K]      

I guess I took your account of events to mean that you either feared death or severe physical injury from the dogs on either yourself or your granddaughter.

No, I wouldn't want to traumatize a child, either, but if it came down to the range in which I felt attack was immenent, I would be compelled to act, rather than be a condition white statistic with my pants around my ankles.

I've faced down moose & bear on the trails behind my house, my dog attentively waiting my next command (BACK! or STAY!). I've never had to shoot a moose, bear or dog in defense of life or limb, but I feel that, given my experience, I have developed a very high level of attention to reading animal posturing.

In our area, some of the emotional responses to bear attacks or moose attacks (cow moose w/ calf is scarier than any  brown/ black bear but a sow grizz w/ cubs): Kill them all. WRONG! We have become so removed from wildlife that we have lost all skills in reading animal behavior!
Dogs bite for a reason, most out of fear or protection of a family member or in guarding food. Dogs should not be kept in packs (except sled dog teams, & children need to be kept OUT).
I train dogs to allow every family member to be able to remove the dogs food (w/ adult supervision). This is an issue of trust & understanding, the dog must KNOW where he/she/it stands in the pack (family). As pups, the dog is GENTLY dominated & commanded by EVERY family member.

Same goes for firearms & family/ friends. I set the bar high for safety & enforce it. Where the hell are all the responsible adults these days?

Eric, you sound like a good guy, please understand that individual rights/ responsibility is as serious to me as gun ownership is to most folks here... [8D] (I just had a "pro-gun" friend tell me that "no one has a need for an AR-15!"... [:(])

i have owned both a doberman(dead now from old age)now i have a german sheperd. both dogs love people and would never hurt anyone especially children. its how you raise them.

Buddha man- the argument is not one of equating dogs & guns, but the responsibility & rights of the individual owner. You own guns, do you protect them from theft or leave them laying around where any B&E can pick them up? You shouldn't! You own a PET, do you safeguard it? You & I do (according to your statement), & we understand where the responsibility falls. On the owner, ALONE (except in your example of two perps, then both perps need to face charges...). But not the rest of the pet owning society.
BTW, I own a rotti because of (1) She was 5 weeks old & had no home, & (2)All but one of the rotties I've known where extremeley LOYAL & attentive, intelligent (trainable), & protective. It's very nice being able to sleep with out worrying about every little creak in the house, my dog does the inspection routine & alerts me to REAL danger. She is so loyal that she waits for me to repeat a command even if someone else gives it first. Alot of rottie owners are drawn to the POSITIVE aspects of the breed, not the machismo bullshit. Those guys are in the ghetto feeding gunpowder to pits, rots, germans, dobbies - anything & then betting on them in dog fights. They are the same types that will violate your rights by breaking into your house at 0:dark thirty to do you in & take what they can for a crack fix.

[img]http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/HKgnnr/rom1y3m2-1.jpg[/img]

Oh bullshit - I've handled several rotts in the show circut - both those I've been around for years, and those whom I've met for the first time. Never once have I encountered a problem.

Its about socialization, proper handling and training.

The one thing we can agree on is the owners - and yes, it goes the same thing for firearms. If youre not going to take the time to properly learn how to handle them - they are a risk.

My daughter was bit by a black lab 4 years ago -yet we own two rotts, with no signs of aggression.

Hmm folks maybe we need to look at the bigger picture - since there havent been any mass shootings lately, maybe the medias going after the dogs now??????

[flame]

Hold on there, lil' buckaroo! Your logic don't compute! For starters, we don't/shouldn't "outlaw" persons of a particular racial profile simply because some thug idiot of that profile hit the stop-&-rob. Same logic goes for the animals. And don't hold these breeds in contempt simply based on what they were originally bred for (Just like big-evil black guns). I've owned 3 dobies, & my bro in CO has a fantastic rottie, and all are/have been obedient pups. There [i]is[/i] an inbred nature that [i]can[/i] be present in them, but a [u]responsible[/u] & [u]capable[/u] breeder - not the back-yard idiot variety - knows how to strain these negative traits out. I'd bet 2:1 that the dogs in question were the el cheapo, BY-bred variety. Thus, the aggressive nature was never culled in the breeding profile. As such, they were doomed at to be aggressive. Behavioral negatives are associated with many breeds, not just the stereotypes, and a good, knowledgable breeder will cull them out. Backyard idiots don't know/care enough to get it right. "Luck" is their fortune. You are seeing the results of reliance upon "luck".

I've seen great pit bulls, rotties, dobies - you name it. Some pups are definitely built for "speed", but it doesn't mean the lines can't be tamed with proper breeding & further encouraged with good training. But the owner [u]must[/u] be right for the dog. Sadly, in this case, the breeding & matching was made in hell. Consider the owners in question: this subject has come up before, and I've said before, that behind every bad dog is a stupid owner.



Certainly no surprises here - someone who leaves his little kids at home alone with 6 dogs (ea. probably weighing as much, or more than the victim did), who has felony priors, & who knowingly violates parole by possessing a firearm. I smell the rank of a [u][size=4]loser[/size=4][/u] in the midst of this.

I might add that, a good owner knows that 6 dogs makes a pack, and a pack must be ruled, or its members'll pick an alpha from amongst themselves. That alpha will set the standard.

Who's the alpha in your pack???

...

If the kid had found one of dad's guns in the closet & shot herself or her friend, should guns then be outlawed? Notta. You're looking at low IQ, white TT parents who are doomed to redundant tragedy simply because they're plain [u]irresponsible[/u] & downright [u]stupid[/u]. Stupid people are the bain of those who tolerate them. Be intolerant!

Stupidity is the root crime.[xx(]
[grenade]
Too bad there isn't a law.[:(!]

Bah!!!!! What next???????? The next thing you know people are going to say that I shouldn't keep a collection of deadly bacteria and viruses!!!!!! Crazy World!!!


-SS

Post from Rotti -

You're mistaken - [b]I was scared spitless![/b]

I wouldn't have drawn my weapon and racked the slide unless I felt extreme danger in the situation. Both dogs were somewhere around 75 to 100 feet away.

If I had been by myself, it would have been a mildly exciting situation, but with my darling granddaughter there in harm's way, it was WWIII!

I was raised on a farm. If we kids didn't do everything our Dad asked us to do, when he asked us to do it, the family would suffer in ways we could only imagine. We were weaned on personal responsibility!

So I most likely feel the same as you do about personal responsibility.

And when it came time to butcher an Angus or Hereford steer that we had raised ourselves, or a hog, or even a chicken, we understood what those animals are for. They are for us.

And when an animal must die to serve mankind, and you are the chosen means of execution, you learn that personal responsibility means that you must do what must be done for your family. And other families, as well.

If you decide that you are responsible enough to keep an animal with enormous power around - if I'm not mistaken the grip of the jaws of a pit bull are only matched by heavy machinery -
then you must make certain that no one is hurt. And if they are, you must pay the complete bill of what your 'hobby' has cost some other family.

It's like having a full auto weapon that you feel you must keep fully loaded and chambered at all times, but that has a nasty tendency to fire all by itself on occasion.  

Eric The(Responsible)Hun[>]:)]

My recent example: Walking into a Starbucks, I passed a German shepherd tied outside. It lunged at me with a bark. Scared me shitless. I reared back and cocked my fist, thinking "Jesus, I wished I could carry in this fucking state.' I go inside and the owner, a bohemian beach chick, goes outside AND COMFORTED THE DOG!!! She comes back in the coffee shop and says NOTHING to me.

Every summer at the beach I would see a bunch of guys, all with the ancient slave tattoos around their upper arms, standing around and there are ALWAYS a couple of pits standing or lying at their feet, unleashed. I'm not exaggerating. ALWAYS.

I don't advocate banning any breeds since I absolutely love dogs, but couldn't we sometimes, every once in a while, just a little, preemptively beat the shit out of these asshole owners? Please?

To all of you large breed bitches:

You did a great, great job,
.
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.
.
.
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[red][size=6][b]FOR ME TO POOP ON!!![/b][/size=6][/red]

[img]http://aol.eonline.com/News/Photos/t/triumph.dog.jpg[/img]

 The impression you give me is one of a very good grandad who was ready to protect his darling grandaughter. You held your composure, but were at the ready to repell an attack. Good condition orange. I think were more on the same page than not, except that you refer to my PET as a "hobby". She's not. She is my family. If my house were on fire & she was in there I'd go in and get her or DIE trying because I'd be too devestated to live with the thought of letting her down. I'm sure you feel the same way about your granddaughter. I'm 100% on that.

I grew up in farm country as well & had to slaughter cows, chickens & rabbbits that I fed & nurtured - raised for food. Not as companions who would help me cope w/ a tremendous loss. Dogs, of all PETS are very much family animals & have been for thousands of years. Mine is loyal, HONEST, & willing to risk her life for me(unlike so many worhtless people). My dog has been confident in me while navigating endless miles of bad terrain in worse weather, obediant yet ready in the face of danger (moose & bear as well as felons) and trusting while scaling cliffs or crossing rivers. She is not there to be discarded at the end of the day after her useful purpose has expired. In my experience, good people reward longsuffering, loyal, honest & courageous friends with end of life care, not a slug in the brain. Food animals are food animals, a companion dog is a TRUE friend.

""if I'm not mistaken the grip of the jaws of a pit bull are only matched by heavy machinery -""

""you must pay the complete bill of what your 'hobby' has cost some other family.""

Pits, & other dogs with strong jaws may not want to let go, but I am very able to persaude pits to OPEN their jaws NOW. They do not have a "lock jaw" as reputed in the ghetto. They have an admirable, yet stubborn will. I know pits that are better around KIDS than most labs, cocker spaniels, daschunds, etc. RAISE, TRAIN, SOCIALIZE, SUPERVISE. (same as kids, huh?)
Again, I already covered the fact that I understood the responsibility is on the owner of the PET (any pet)for said pets actions.

Companion pets are not a hobby for millions of americans. The ones that have "hobby" pets need to re-evaluate their thinking. You have a granddaughter, how fortunate. I have my dog & my extended family, who I see less & less.

""It's like having a full auto weapon that you feel you must keep fully loaded and chambered at all times, but that has a nasty tendency to fire all by itself on occasion.""  

 Negative. My rotti is always in my house or in my truck or on a leash, with me. No, I don't let my dog run free in the woods. Dogs tend to find things & bring them back to you, such as a sow protecting cubs... Read the posts by others about -training-socialization-breeding- I watched my dog a pup & her parents & was able to interact w/ all with no concerns. The biggest problem is this: People own dogs that don't understand dogs & how to train dogs & then how to care for dogs.
The local "Friends of Pets" is a charitable pet rescue organization that takes in pets from BAD owners & puts them in foster homes until a GOOD home can be found. Just 'cause I gots lotsa evil black, fast shooting, powerful guns doesn't mean I don't care about life.

Do you really believe the crap you are saying? You must own a taco bell dog. You have just helped stigmatize some of the best of the canine breeds. YOU my friend need to go buy yourself a cat. let me clarify, a HOUSE cat!!! Plus learn how to use a dictionary or at the very least know how to spell the animals names that you distrust so much ,but hey you already call yourself a jarhead so who am I to break the news to you?!!!

Rottie, I must give you the honor for highest thought process for the evening. I agree 100% jolly good show ole chap! Good rational thought,you got to love that!!![thinking]

Posted by 321Bang:I may at times make an ass of myself on this board, but to the best of my knowledge, I've never said anything quite this stupid.

Good grief, give me a break!  I've been around dogs and guns all my life, and the one thing I have learned is that with both you are responsible for your own actions.  Any of you people who seem to be "Anti Dog" "Anti Rott" or anti anything else disappoint me in my fellow gun owners.  After all the $hit we put up with from liberal media, soccer moms, and ignorant and plain lying power hungry politicians trying to take away our guns, you would think we would ponder long and hard about trying to dictate someone elses actions or monday morning quarterbacking a situation.  Now, don't get me wrong, I think both of the owners of these dogs should be severely punished, and if it were my daughter lying in the morgue, I don't imagine the state would have to pay for their trial.  But, making sweeping statements like "Anyone who would own one of these dogs is crazy" or some other cockamamie bullcrap is totally ludicrous.  It's doubly ludicrous coming from a dog owner.  Reminds me alot of the shotgunners at the range who give me snooty holier-than-thou looks when I uncase my AR.  But, I suppose that in modern America it is ok to trample on someone elses rights and make overly generalized statements and snap judgements, as long as WE get to do what WE want.  Huh?  Feinstein and Gore would be proud of ya!

In retrospect Zardoz I must reflect and agree with you as to that being a stupid comment by me. Please forgive to all, especially the Hun on that one! [spank]

Rest assured: You don't exactly have the market cornered on making an ass of yourself; I've become quite good at it, over the years.

Thanks for the support 321, being a newbie on what looks like the best forum's site I've come across, I hated to stir the pot w/ established members, but this is near & dear to my heart.

Props to "The Hun". He's a good guy who can exchange ideas & perspectives w/o getting into character defamation. We all come from different areas, but we got a lot in common. [8D]

This stinks of misinformation. There are a lot of people here who believe that these breeds are just plain mean. I can see where that idea comes from, but not how such statements are taken at face value, and repeated as the truth. I even bought into them myself for a time, then I did a little reading.

About the time my brother brought home a Rot./Pit mix, I informed him that she would be well trained, or he would be relieved of his command, and if she gave reason I would shoot her myself. I then started to read up on these breeds, and took great joy in our new sister as in my family dogs are family. She is not quite a year old, and is showing the potential to be an excellent dog indeed. She listens and obeys (99.99% of the time), has passed with flying colors every social test that she has been put to, and is a wonderful alarm system. I was not nervous in the least when my g/f brought her 5 year old to the house for the first time, except that Poochie matched him in weight, and nearly in size. As she is very friendly to those we bring to the house, and the possibility of her running him over was pretty good. She did, once, and then slowed herself down after realizing she had knocked him over. This is not an "evil" dog, or an"especially evil" dog for being a mix of two "evil" breeds, but a good companion/bed warmer, guard, and friend. Read up a little before passing judgement.

Actually, I held back on mentioning that my rottie is 3/4 rot & 1/4 pit due to the already inflamatory nature of this discussion... Likewise to USP40C's experience, my "baby" loves kids. And I'll reassure those of you who haven't read my whole position: I never allow my dog to be alone with a child. Not 'cause of her breed, but because she's a DOG. COMMON SENSE ISN'T COMMON!!! [8D]

[b]I want to start with, I am not Atti any dog breed.[/b]



I can tell you Wolfpack, that I work more Rottsweiler's, Chow Chow's bites, then I do Lab's bites.  Yes any dog can bite.  Pitbulls and Rottweiler are the dog breeds in the lead for human Dog Bite Related Fatalities.  [url]http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm[/url]  see Table_1, good read.



As you know, she owned 6 Dane, but only 4 where there.  She had put to sleep 1 for attacking other animal and killing 1 dog.  The other Dane was at the Vet's.  I was  there that night.
 


Yes owner do have to accept a very large responsibility.  I work with this dogs and other breeds daily.  I have seen some bad, mean dogs.  But I have also seen many nice Shepherds, Rottweilers, Pitbull, Akitas, and Chow Chows.  There are some bad to the bone dogs, that were born bad.  But most are from the owners.  I have Dobermans, as seen by my name.  They could bite someone, but the breed does love people and only wants to work for them and are easy to train.  The bad thing about Dobies is they are so easy to train, that anyone, including a backyard trainer can try to train them to be mean or if done wrong, they can easy be train to be mean.

The Rottweiler is a great dog and only wants a strong leader and if the human is not the strong leader, the dog will have to became one.


I did a search on " mauled by dog" and come up with some good info.  [url]http://www.inlandempireonline.com/de/dogattack/[/url]  This site has some good links.  Also [url]http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/01/7/UScourt0701.html[/url]  This site is a good read.

[size=4]There are more mauling and attacks then most people know.  Do your own search.  "mauled by dog", "mauled by Rottweiler", "mauled by ?"  you get the ideal.[/size=4]

[size=4]Dog bite facts[/size=4]

• One million people annually require medical treatment for dog bites.
• Dog attacks send more than 334,000 people to the emergency room each year.
• One million people report dog attacks each year; millions more go unreported.
• About 12 people each year die from dog attacks.
• Dog attacks cost society $1 billion annually.

[size=4]Children are the most frequent targets[/size=4]

• The median age of patients bitten was 15 years, with children, especially boys aged 5 to 9 years, having the highest incidence rate.
• The odds that a bite victim will be a child are 3 to 1.
• Children seen in emergency departments were more likely than older persons to be bitten on the face, neck, and head.
• 77% of injuries to children under 10 years old are facial.
• Severe injuries occur almost exclusively in children less than 10 years of age.
• The majority of dog attacks happen at home or in a familiar place.
• The vast majority of biting dogs belong to the victim's family or a friend.
• When a child less than 4 years old is the victim, the family dog was the attacker half the time, and the attack almost always happened in the family home.


[size=4]How to avoid a dog attack[/size=4]

• Never leave a baby or small child alone with a dog.
• Maintain a safe distance between yourself and dogs on a leash.
• Alwasys ask the owner's permission before approaching a dog.
• Never disturb a dog that's caring for puppies, sleeping or eating.
• Avoid eye contact with the dog.
• If a dog approaches to sniff you, stay still. In most cases, the dog will go away when it determines you are not a threat.
• Try to place an obsticle between you and the dog.
• Speak softly and gently to calm the dog.
• If local law allows, use pepper spray when charged by the dog.
• If charged, place an object between you and the dog's mouth.
• If attacked, curl up in a ball and protect your face, neck, and head.
• Report unleashed aggressive dogs to the local police.

I was attacked by a German Shepard that I had always played with when I was little. One day I got up in the back of the truck to pet it like normal It attacked my face. I was about 5 or 6 years old at the time. The dog was not sleeping or sick. I did not step on him or anything. All I know is that I pissed my pants and had to get alot of stitches in my face. Needless to say my Grandfather shot the dog. I am a dog lover but I would not think twice about shooting one. Getting attacked by a dog really does something to you. If one even looks like it is getting aggressive it had better be wearing kevlar! Have someone pull a dog twice your size off of your face and see how you feel about them. Dog lover or not. As a side not I have had 3 boxers and they were gentle as lambs.

My reasoning is this:

Gun don't kill people, people kill people.  That I am okay with.

But don't tell me that dog don't kill people, because they do! Period!.  Deerslayer had a point. You cannot compare dog with gun. One is a tool, the other is an animal.

This hits the nail right on the head.  For those who are upset and want to compare some of the posts to the anti-gunners, like AR_rifle says, a gun has never moved on it's own and killed someone, dogs have.  That is a fact.  Some dogs are more vicious than others.  That also is a fact.  I am not anti-dog nor anti-any particular breed.  I will say that, especially if you have certain breeds, you need to take extra care to control them and if one of your dogs, regardless of breed, kills a person (especially a child), you should suffer extreme consequences under the law, if you survive the angry father.  The owner of the dogs in California that mauled the woman in the apartment hallway are getting off light in my opinion as frankly I think the two of them should be set loose in a cage with starving, trained to fight dogs and no one rescues them.  Let them die the slow painful death she died.  Same with owner of the dog in this thread.  If I was the father of the 10 year old, the owner of this dog would not have to worry about the cage.

Reading over this post I think of a little wisedom of 3 things that could get someone killed.

1.  Messing with another man's wife.
2.  Messing with another man's dog.
3.  Disputing over land lines.

Concentrating on #2 we all love our animals.  No matter what breed of dog you have to know it's personality and taking appropriate precautions for that.  A pack of mutts with vicious attitudes are just as dangerous as any Rott or pit bull with a vicious attitude.  The same goes for horses (don't let a unexperienced person ride a stubborn horse that occasionally likes to buck.) , cattle and even cats.  Housecats can be very jealous of newborn babies brought into a house.  When my aunt brought home her first child home she had a very bad experience with this.  She was rocking her baby by the window when their cat jumped into her lap and bit the baby's blanket.  It was tired of this new thing in the house and wanted attention.  The teeth didn't make it through.  In a rage my uncle killed that cat in the living room.

You should take appropriate actions for the animal's personality.  I'm a rottweiler owner.  I don't own one because it's a macho thing they're just good dogs for what I need.  My family owns a 200 acre farm that is bordered on the backside by 15 miles of national forest.  With training rotts can be good cattle dogs, that fearless nature comes in handy when making a 1500 lb stubborn bull go in the proper direction.  Great for keeping coyotes from roaming freely around the yard.  And excellent for making sure that the two legged crack addict varmints don't come around either looking for something to steal.

Good rotts are just good dogs, bad rotts are just bad dogs.  The breed is powerful and that power should be respected, just like a horse, any other animal, or a even a fast car.

This is way too funny!

Some of you are really ignorant or just plain stupid!!  I hope for your sake that it's just ignorance.  That can usually be corrected!

A DOG HAS THE PERSONALITY OF IT'S OWNER!!  It's as simple as that.  It's all about socialization with other dogs and with humans from the time the dog is a pup.  If you raise your kids to be thugs, then that's what they are going to be!  It's no different with dogs!

When I was growing up we always had black labs.  I've had 3 of them in my short 24 years of existence.  I never owned a Pit Bull, Rottie, German Shephard, etc, so I beieved what the MEDIA told me, and thought they were viscious dogs.  I couldn't have been more wrong.  Now I am the owner of a wonderful American Pit Bull Terrier!  We brought in a trainer when she was a pup, and we socialized her with other dogs and with people.  There is NO comparison between her and all the labs I used to own.  She is much sweeter, and much more loving than the 3 of them put together, and they were all GREAT dogs also.  She loves kids and loves playing with other dogs in the area, although she is never off of her leash.  The f'ing moron who stated that you have to be crazy to own one of these "viscious" dogs, and then says he owns a Lab, is a DUMBASS!!  A lab is just as capable of hurting someone as any Pit!  He's a hypocrite and he doesn't even know it!  Geez!

[b]MY PIT BULL IS AS EVIL AS MY BLACK RIFLE[/b]

[img]http://www.gotbeer.net/images/dalee/images/dalee-ears.jpg[/img]

Hannah,
 The Rotty is not the Breed that is at fault.
The genetically poor breading of the owners is the reason this happened. Our Dogs have always been raised as part of the family but thier Socialization must be sucessful before they can be left to roam the house.

[:)>]

Carrying with an empty chamber?

Oh we are on exactly the same page here, Rudison. I blame the owners for a multitude of bad things in this case.
My dogs are also family members and socialized, but I know they take their territorial protecting instincts very seriously, and are capable of astounding independent action.
I go to great lengths, (11' rear fences, screen guards on the *inside* of my doors, heavy leashes and chain collars when I take them out, barring their access to accessible glass windows), to prevent ANY unwanted contact with my dogs. I have seen a Rottie jump from a 2nd story window, uninjured, over a territorial conflict with another dog. I have heard of Rotties that hit safety glass side windows hard enough to blow through them, while guarding their car. My precautions may sound extreme, but this is for the dogs' safety, as well as fellow citizens and pets.
My dogs are never left alone with anyone but the adults of my house. When we have children present, only the female dogs are allowed to visit with them running loose, as the boys, friendly as they may be, are clumsy enough to bowl a kid over while trying to play. The boys may socialize with kids, but they must be leashed while doing so.The girls are sweet and gentle, but under NO circumstances are ANY kids left alone with them, not even for a second. My dogs are not vicious, but I will not risk a child to prove it. I do not leave any of the dogs outside when we leave the house, all are secured indoors. My fences are double sided with sheer tall cedar planks, so no passer-by kids can climb up to get a better look, and risk a bite. I remove the temptation by barring accidental access to my dogs.
Our dogs are big gentle playful bears when introduced, but I still see folks cross the street to avoid walking past us. This is their choice, but I have no wish to frighten anyone. I don't keep these animals as a macho thing. I keep them because I love them, and they earn their keep by protecting my home and family. Hell, they ARE part of my family! Any one of them would take quite a few bullets and lay down their life for us.
Rotties and GSDs are very special animals, and must be bred for temperament as well as conformation. But sometimes, you will still have a very "sharp" dog born from a very mellow pedigree. A "sharp" dog has a very high protection and prey drive. One must know how to be a strong owner to these dogs, they are not mean, they just have to be handled like a hair trigger gun, making it VERY clear who is the Alpha, and absolutely kept out of potential trouble at all times. Most Rotties are not like this, most are gentle herders, who will corner a Bad Guy and hold him for you. They were originally bred to herd cattle, not to butcher cattle. But some from the Schutzhund trained bloodlines can be very "sharp". A tiny percentage can turn out so "sharp" they must be put down, but this is ultra rare.
I blame the idiot know-nothing breeders that TRY to add aggression, I blame the nonchalant owners that cannot *conceive* of what their dogs are capable of, and I blame folks that are utterly irresponsible.....the same types that "accidentally" shoot people.
There are no bad breeds, there are only bad owners.

I glad to see this thread isn't totally bashing rotties. I glad to see some well thought out responses.

Dogs,kids,guns and cars anyone can own one but that that doesn't mean their responsible enough to have one.

Hear Hear.  Hold individuals accountable for their actions rather than depriving the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of owners of COURAGEOUS & STRONG breeds. I could love a small dog, but I couldn't own one as it wouldn't be able to go where I go, when I go.

The first thing I taught my Rotti (after potty training) was "GIVE!". She releases delicious roasted chicken if I tell her. Next came "WAIT", as I am the leader & she eats when I say. BTW, I am 6' tall, weigh about 245 & I can bench my weight for reps. I fear very few dogs, even when unarmed. They might draw some blood, but they WILL die. I rescued a teenage girls 40# lab from two Husky/ wolf mixes that had it pinned at the throat & rear leg, shaking the neck on the jugular. They each were in the 100 to 130 lbs range with no owners around.
 I ran up & kicked the larger one (on the lab's neck) in the ribs, then head kicked the lesser one off the back leg. The smaller one took off but the big one went after the retreating lab. Bad idea, 'cause I chased him down, ripped him over on HIS back while twisting his collar into a tuorniquet & gave him about 10 full power punches to the ribs & up under the solar plexus in attempt to end his hostility.

The owner of the husky/ wolf mixes rolled up just as another guy was cocking a shovel to finish this vicious beast, so I relinquished the bitch to the owner. Right after I pulled the dog tag around & got the owners name & address, which I gave to the little girl so her parents could sue for vet bills & so I could contact Animal Control.
My rotti has never even barked at another dog. I trained her not to.
Maybe we need to ban stupid & irresponsible people - oh yeah, we do. To prison.[;)]