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Posted: 3/14/2002 4:39:21 PM EDT
[#1]
34 dead.
171 wounded. The Israeli torpedo hit the intelligence compartment. Israeli's machine gunned two of the life rafts tied to the stern and took the third on board one of their ships. Apparently all other life rafts had already been destroyed. [X] |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 4:50:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Over 800 rocket holes in USS Liberty.
In televised interview then Israeli Foreign Minister Eben, Mr. Eben stated: "The USS Liberty didn't have OUR PERMISSION to be there." The United States Ship Liberty was in INTERNATIONAL WATERS and needed no country's permission to be there ! [X] |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:02:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Uh oh, here we go again!
ERIC, WHERE ARE YOU???? |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:03:39 PM EDT
[#4]
Israel paid $12 million dollars.
With 34 dead American sailors that comes to less than $350,000 per life. [X] |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:07:37 PM EDT
[#5]
big bucks in 1967
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:08:37 PM EDT
[#6]
I thought that was a damn good special! I don't understand these people who think Israel can do no wrong. |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:10:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: In televised interview then Israeli Foreign Minister Eben, Mr. Eben stated: "The USS Liberty didn't have OUR PERMISSION to be there." The United States Ship Liberty was in INTERNATIONAL WATERS and needed no country's permission to be there ! [X] It is American policy under every adminstration of either party that our navy will go anywhere we please in international waters. And yes, the Israeli government had warned us not to bring the Liberty closer in the week before the attack. They knew it was on the way. Israel paid $12 million dollars. Uh-huh. Of course their aid package was increased, right, so who really paid? Quoted: I thought that was a damn good special! I don't understand these people who think Israel can do no wrong. I missed it. You should have too. Sounds anti-semitic to me... |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:11:36 PM EDT
[#8]
May seem like alot of money, but how much did the sailors get? ZERO. Well I can add another country that can burn to ground before I will risk my ass for them.
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:14:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Clearly a deliberate act and a disgusting repsonse on the U.S.'s part. [V]
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:17:37 PM EDT
[#10]
What is most distressing is the coverup job by our own government. And those two mutt-n-jeff pricks, LBJ and Robert MacNamara, who recalled the jet fighters sent to aid the Liberty.
I know this topic has been hacked to death here, but it is hard to see a documentary about it and not get worked up again. |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:18:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Post from Minman72 -
ERIC, WHERE ARE YOU???? Sorry, [b]Minman72[/b], I thought I'd sit this one out! I suppose that I could re-post some of my previous posts, but to what purpose? Eric The(NonCombatant,ThisTimeAround)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:24:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Post from Minman72 - ERIC, WHERE ARE YOU???? Sorry, [b]Minman72[/b], I thought I'd sit this one out! I suppose that I could re-post some of my previous posts, but to what purpose? Eric The(NonCombatant,ThisTimeAround)Hun[>]:)] Gotcha! But I knew you were watching none-the-less! Post the link to the old thread if its still available, I'm interested in what 5Sub said. |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:24:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Drat, Eric won't come out and play...
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Posted: 3/14/2002 5:28:47 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: ....LBJ and Robert MacNamara, who recalled the jet fighters sent to aid the Liberty.... [pissed] [pissed] [pissed] [pissed] [pissed] I've been in the Marine Corps for almost 6 years and have never even THOUGHT about questioning an order, but I think LBJ would have got a big ol F*CK YOU after he told me to call off the fighters. Men were dying. "...cause an international inncodent.." MY ASS. [b]WE[/b] were being attacked, NOT THEM. Even IF we were not supposed to be that close, EVEN IF we were in the wrong.... Machinegunning lifeboats???? Shooting anyone that moved from close range?????? Helicopter on the scene after the attack that SAW it was an American ship and offered [b]NO ASSISTANCE???[/b] Yet some of you seem to defend Israel's actions, and I don't know why. "Blame America First" maybe??? |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 6:22:28 PM EDT
[#15]
I missed the History Channel presentation. But, it's been known for a long time that this attack was [b]intentional[/b]! The History Channel didn't present anything new.
But they did present evidence that might even convince even the most rabid "Israel Firster"! DaMan |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 6:24:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: I thought that was a damn good special! I don't understand these people who think Israel can do no wrong. It was a damn good special. |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 6:25:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: May seem like alot of money, but how much did the sailors get? ZERO. Well I can add another country that can burn to ground before I will risk my ass for them. The money was nothing. Simply another insult. |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 6:32:40 PM EDT
[#18]
start here & learn somthyng........
http://www.ussliberty.org/ |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 6:46:44 PM EDT
[#19]
Communications Technicians (CT's) would have been running the intelligence ops. The compartment housing most of the CT's was where the torpedo hit.
Most likely I worked an operation or two with one or more of the CT's. Under some name or the other. Not very many in the Navy. CT's are a part of the Navy but are often tasked by an agency in Washington that you would be familiar with. Some fewer Submarine Sonarmen also were a part of the Navy but were tasked by an agency in Washington that few would have ever heard of. Often these CT's and Sonarman would ride on the same hot patrols. (The CT's were not submarine qualified but ran their own deal. Sonarman were sub qualified and we acted as advisors to the subs sonar gang.) Since neither group was actually a part of the subs crew we spent a lot of time together. That's why I say I probably worked with one or more of the CT's on the USS Liberty. So far as Navy enlisted are concerned I believe we lost more CT's than any other rate (rank) during the cold war. 34 were murdered. I'm out of here on this one. |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 6:52:23 PM EDT
[#20]
OK guys,
I have been fighting the urge to reply to this incident. There was something much darker going on there than most know, I can only allude as I don't have [i]offical[/i] knowledge. Ask your self this, what was on board that would make the israelies want to board the liberty? 5subslr5, you mentioned that you knew some CT's onboard, the uss liberty was an intelligence gathering vessel. Was that all she was doing at the time or was she carrying something more important? I believe that the [i]attack[/i] was meant to be an appearance, I don't believe they were supposed to be that many causualty's. Call me crazy but I believe LBJ knew exactly what was happening and was even involved in the planning of this. There was something onboard that was to be transfered covertly to israel, but got out of hand. What you ask? Ask your self this, when did intelligence [i]suggest[/i] that israel had joined the ranks of the nuclear equipped? The liberty didn't carry arms, but intel, and israel has always had plenty of that. So what did they remove. You can form your own opinions, just as I have. I cannot/will not get into any more detail, and once again I have no offical knowledge, just questions. |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 7:06:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: OK guys,.. Call me crazy but I believe LBJ knew exactly what was happening and was even involved in the planning of this. OK, thedave1164, you're crazy! DaMan |
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Posted: 3/14/2002 7:12:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Back on History channel if you can pick up the west coast feed.
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Posted: 3/14/2002 7:12:13 PM EDT
[#23]
[url]http://www.ussliberty.org/[/url]
DaMan |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 12:09:00 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: ... Ask your self this, when did intelligence [i]suggest[/i] that israel had joined the ranks of the nuclear equipped? The liberty didn't carry arms, but intel, and israel has always had plenty of that. So what did they remove. ... I must be missing something, or you're waaaay out there. There are far easier (and more discrete) ways of transferring nuclear secrets or technology / materials. It's hard not to call attention to yourself when you are shooting up a ship. Now if you're suggesting that the ship was supposed to sink and take down with it secrets that Israel could then recover undaterwater, I don't buy it. Your theory is as empty as an IRS tip jar. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 1:20:16 AM EDT
[#25]
The Israeli warheads are French…..
Check out FAS.org they go into some detail about comparisons to our old W30 design. BTW: For those of yall that see something sinister about the liberty. Think about the A10 that offed three M1As during DS or that FA18 that cluster bombed the 6 grunts. Then remove IFF from the equation. You wanna hold Israel to a higher standard than our own people¿ fine. I keep thinking about those 16 scuds they soaked up without even a whimper. but hey that's just my pro jew ass. Don't let logic tilt yer tinfoil hat on my account. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 1:32:04 AM EDT
[#26]
I wonder if the tin foil causes the idiocy, or if the idiocy causes the tin foil. You decide boys and girls.
You want to blame an entire nation for the few jerks who gave the go ahead?? How about blaming the nation that got popped and tried to cover up the black eye. Yea, it was messed up, but I've seen more sinister acts from our own Senate. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 4:05:21 AM EDT
[#27]
Excellent program.
I ordered the video tape. So that NO ONE can try and tell me that what happened didn't happen. TO THE MAN, EVERY sailor on board the Liberty KNOWS, BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF DOUBT, that the Israelis knew who they were attacking, and did so intentionally, deliberately, and maliciously for the full hour and 15 minutes. And our gov't was shameful in how they hadnled the situation. Almost as shameful as SOME people who can see the evidence on that tape, hear the testimony of dozens of our OWN sailors, who have ABSOLUTELY no reason to lie or make up stories, and try and tell me that was a mistake by the Israelis, thereby dishonoring our OWN honored dead. Just like our gov't did. Its time for some people to do some soul searching, and pick a side. AND THAT'S ALL I'M GONNA SAY. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 4:09:24 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Excellent program. I ordered the video tape. So that NO ONE can try and tell me that what happened didn't happen. TO THE MAN, EVERY sailor on board the Liberty KNOWS, BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF DOUBT, that the Israelis knew who they were attacking, and did so intentionally, deliberately, and maliciously for the full hour and 15 minutes. And our gov't was shameful in how they hadnled the situation. Almost as shameful as SOME people who can see the evidence on that tape, hear the testimony of dozens of our OWN sailors, who have ABSOLUTELY no reason to lie or make up stories, and try and tell me that was a mistake by the Israelis, thereby dishonoring our OWN honored dead. Just like our gov't did. Its time for some people to do some soul searching, and pick a side. AND THAT'S ALL I'M GONNA SAY. Good. Up to the next time, that US troops will shoot US soldiers or one of their allies. I don't have ot wait too much, unfortunately. And I am really curious to see your comments... In the meanwhile I'll do like the old Chinese sat on the bank of the river waiting for the next corpse to pass... and I am sure that I'll get what I want. See you man... |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 4:21:21 AM EDT
[#29]
I hope I am misreading you here, but I'll tell ya what I hear when I read your post.....
Quoted: You want to blame an entire nation for the few jerks who gave the go ahead?? How about blaming the nation that got popped and tried to cover up the black eye. So you are blaming the nation that got attacked?? You are blaming the nation whose men were killed in an unprovoked attack? Hey, next time someone is eavesdropping on your conversation, just blow them away. Pull out your 44 mag, put it to their head, and cream them. That'd be justified, right??? [rolleyes] In the recent wiretapping scandal, where Israeli operatives infiltration and abuses caused the death of several US law enforcment officials, the pro-Israeli line on this board was "OF COURSE, ISrael is gonna spy on us. What 's the big deal?" BUT NOW, when the US might be spying on Israel, WE DESERVED to get attacked??? Unbeleivable. Yea, it was messed up, but I've seen more sinister acts from our own Senate. Oh, so theft is OK because rape has also occurred? And rape is OK because murder has also occurred??? WHAT I AM HEARING FROM SOME OF YOU IS "ISRAEL FIRST, RIGHT OR WRONG." Which doesn't surprise me any more. Just because you are on this board is NO guarantee of your US citizenship, or patriotism. (Shoot, we prolly have SEVERAL of those dual citizenship / divided loyalty folks right here.) Again, feel free to correct me if I'm misreading you, but if I am misreading you, you REALLY need to read what you post, and see how it might be interpreted. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 4:22:58 AM EDT
[#30]
Here's something I've never seen addressed. WHY did the Israelis shoot up the Liberty? What was to be gained by killing Americans and sinking (or, at least, trying to sink) their ship? Having never seen the ship, I'll guess is was basically a radio boat. No guns, but lots of antennas. The Russians have been known to use this kind of boat in many places. Did the Israelis think it was Russian? Did they think it was Libyan? Those would be an understandable target. It's not like no ship has ever flown a false flag before.
Why would the Israelis deliberatly shoot up an American boat? They wanted us to cut off their aid? They didn't like us helping keep their nation alive? They were pissed at the world and tried to commit "suicide by cop"? What would have been the desired outcome of the attack? Those of you who are still trying to use this incident to let the Arabs kill every Israeli & have "Palestine from the river to the sea" tell me why you think Israel did this. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 4:32:14 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Almost as shameful as SOME people who can see the evidence on that tape, hear the testimony of dozens of our OWN sailors, who have ABSOLUTELY no reason to lie or make up stories, and try and tell me that was a mistake by the Israelis, thereby dishonoring our OWN honored dead. Just like our gov't did. I really can’t understand how someone who claims to be a loyal American can be pro Palestinian. Fata and their supporters have repeatedly murdered our servicemen and unless you’ve been living in a box for the past six months - there is this minor matter of 3000+ people killed but hey we can’t all be clueless fucks |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 4:40:36 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Good. Up to the next time, that US troops will shoot US soldiers or one of their allies. I don't have ot wait too much, unfortunately. And I am really curious to see your comments... True "friendly fire accidents" are measured in SECONDS in duration. NOT hours. A friendly fire accident that lasts more than 60 seconds is RARE. Consider the facts - 1. This was a clearly marked US ship - insignia, US lettering, and profile. 2. The ship was in international waters. 3. NO OTHER vessels were around. 4. it was BROAD DAYLIGHT. 5. No other military actions were occurring in a 15 mile perimeter, and no other craft were in that same perimeter. 6. US soldiers were easily able to identify the fast moving Israeli aircraft. Are the Israelis THAT incompetent to NOT be able to identify a slow moving US ship??? 7. Eight (count 'em EIGHT) flybys were performed by Israeli aircraft. They STILL screwed up??? 8. 800 rocket hits (never mind the misses) in a friendly fire accident? Please. How many aircraft are necessary for 800 rockets?? 9. After launching torpedoes, Israeli gunboats circled and strafed the Liberty for 45 minutes. If this is an accident, the Israelis should be put to death for STUPIDITY. 10. An Israeli helicopter hovered over the shattered Liberty after the hour and 15 minute long attack, AND NEVER OFFERED ASSISTANCE. Some ally. 11. The identification of the Liberty as a US vessel made the Israeli situation board BEFORE the attack. Erased by accident?? That's crap. 12. An "apology" (IMO pre-written) was forwarded to LBJ in MINUTES after the attack. NO WAY that happens in a true friendly fire accident. HOURS, perhaps DAYS, of investigation would normally occur before a formal apology would ever be forwarded in such an instance. 13. The Isrealis claimed they thought they were attacking an Egyptian ship ONE QUARTER the size of the Liberty. People with eyesight THAT bad never get to BE pilots. 14. The men WHO WERE THERE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. Your opinion is irrelevant. Did you even see the special?? Or is this just more "I'm sure Israel is not capable of evil" rhetoric???? |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 4:40:38 AM EDT
[#33]
I'm a little bleary eyed this morning. Given that these events happened when I was 3 I figured I'd stay up and watch it to be educated.
I learned the following things. 1) The liberty was caught in confusion and changes in orders that put it far closer to the war zone than either our government or anyone else knew she was. She was supposed to be 100 miles from her actual position. 2) She was in fact attacked and badly damaged by Israeli Naval and air forces who were engaged in combat with Hostile Egypt. 3) The Israelis had supposedly been sent to find and attack an egyptian ship that had been shelling their positions. 4) As warships go, she was pretty non distinct save for the intel gathering antennae. 5) She was clearly flying the US Flag and when attacked the sailors raised a larger US Flag. 6) Her requests for a destroyer screen, Protective air cover and other aid were denied by our government. This was a horrible tragedy at the hands of a friend. I now know What happened, and where and when and who. I do not know why? This attack based on the information given defies logic. I know the sailors stated that there were still parts of the event that were still classified. Why would Israel if not by mistaken identity attack a US warship. It is not as if they have ever demonstrated a hatred of us, or that we have not been their friend. Why would they attack us. Even with the most recent events in NY we know why it happened. We still do not know why this happened and the evidence presented in the show did not answer this question. If anyone really knows, without conjecture or supposition or opinion, please let the rest of us know. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 4:51:15 AM EDT
[#34]
Maybe I've read too many Marchinko novels, but it did kinda seem like the Liberty was supposed to be "liquidated". Only for some reason, they just weren't successful. Way too many strange coincidences: unmarked Israeli planes (what airforce just happens to have a bunch of fueled, unmarked, armed planes just sitting around onsome secluded tarmac somewhere), the "strange" recall of the US fighters by orders from someplace in Washington, the continued firing despite the American flag being clearly flown, the machine gunning of the yellow inflatable lifeboats (that's completely against the Geneva convention on war - clearly an attempt to "liquidate" the sailors), and the forced gag-order on the sailors. They would have succeeded except that torpedo hit the I-beam and didn't sink the ship. The US ONLY did something after the Liberty regained the use of it's radio after the attack. Maybe those strange civilians who came on board right before, were the ones supposed to be "liquidated". Seems like a definate set-up to me.
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Posted: 3/15/2002 5:00:55 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: I really can’t understand how someone who claims to be a loyal American can be pro Palestinian. Fata and their supporters have repeatedly murdered our servicemen and unless you’ve been living in a box for the past six months but hey we can’t all be clueless fucks Apparently, NO, you CANNOT make an argument WITHOUT expletive. [rolleyes] Who is pro_Palestinain around here??? I defy you to find ANY pro-Palestinian statement by me, or even insinuation of such. It is a small mind that equates questioning Israeli action with being pro_palestinian. originally by NormG: Here's something I've never seen addressed. WHY did the Israelis shoot up the Liberty? What was to be gained by killing Americans and sinking (or, at least, trying to sink) their ship? Good question. Why [size=6]AREN'T [/size=6] you asking that question of the Israeli gov't??? Why are you INSTEAD trying to use that question to excuse Israel of culpability and deliberate intent?? What was to have ben gained by OJ killing Nicole? Well, then, he must not have done it, or it must have been accidental , right??? [rolleyes] [size=6]Here's my reasoning as to israel's motive (according to the program last nite)....[/size=6] The night before, a peace treaty with Syria had been signed, but Israel still had plans to take the Golan Heights the next day. The Israelis perceived a US intelligence ship as a threat to those plans. Such an intelligence ship could pick up military air traffic that would give away israel's intentions. That's why they took out the Liberty's communications compartment and antennae FIRST. Israel wished to SEND A MESSAGE to the US - "Don't mess in our affairs." Well, things sure worked out that way. Israel had what pro-Israelis consider their biggest military victory ever, the Six Day War. Apparently, Isrealis commanders knew EXACTLY what was at stake, and would let nothing stand in their way. Attacking the Liberty is what ANY sensible military commander would have done (IN AN ACT OF WAR AGAINST THE LIBERTY) The Golan Heights were taken, and the US became Israels lackey for the last 30 years. This is useless - you guys don't WANT to know the truth. Anyone who could see that program last nite, and NOT come away with some REAL hard questions for the Israelis has some SERIOUS patriotism deficiencies (IMO)Either that, or you can't STAND the idea you been backin' the wrong horse all these years. Well, WAKE UP. THEY DELIBERATELY KILLED OUR BOYS, and all you got to say is "Oh well..." Shameful. Shame on you. Garandman OUT. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 5:21:32 AM EDT
[#36]
Well G-Man I think your heart is in the right place even if your mind isnt.
Hopefully you will demonstrate as much vitriol for those who aided and abedded and rejoiced in the killing of Our Boys in Somalia, Afghansitan,Iraq, NYC and all those in power who have aided and abedded... Like it or not...the Israelis are our last best hope to rid the world of Islamic Terrorism... and its vice like grip in the Middle East spreading fast throughout the western nations with great political influence. Christians are under great persectution in countries taken over by Islam..In Israel both Christians and Moslems are allowed to worship and to meet...In Islamic countries this is not only a death sentance but justification for enslavement. There is more than one side to every story..If you stop and consider why the Israelis would shoot up and American boat on purpose...given all they would have to loose for doing such a thing..What on earth could their justification be...Now the muslims that is a different story...they kill our kids all the time..when ever they can...but the Israelis?...this incidence needs more scrutiny then your knee jerk responses and reducio ad absurdum impulses. Have a nice day |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 5:27:19 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Apparently, NO, you CANNOT make an argument WITHOUT expletive. [rolleyes] Who is pro_Palestinain around here??? I defy you to find ANY pro-Palestinian statement by me, or even insinuation of such. It is a small mind that equates questioning Israeli action with being pro_palestinian. 1) Did you or did you not state that the marine barracks bombing was carried out by the Israelis? 2) Were you or were you not the person that flat fucking (pardon my offensive speech) insisted that the “jews” were responsible for 9/11? 3) Have you or have you not been a regular participant in Damans BS "They wasted another jew today" threads? Pardon me for the questions – There are about five of you on this board and I get you all confused. (silly me) |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 5:48:05 AM EDT
[#38]
Post from Norm_G -
Here's something I've never seen addressed. Nor will you [u]ever[/u], Norm_G. Eric The(NonparticipatingThisGoRound)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 5:54:48 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: [size=6]Here's my reasoning as to israel's motive (according to the program last nite)....[/size=6] The night before, a peace treaty with Syria had been signed, but Israel still had plans to take the Golan Heights the next day. The Israelis perceived a US intelligence ship as a threat to those plans. Such an intelligence ship could pick up military air traffic that would give away israel's intentions. That's why they took out the Liberty's communications compartment and antennae FIRST. And people think I am crazy? Taking out a specific compartment with a torpedo? Pleeeeaaaaassssseeee spare me. Let me sum up what I am hearing here. 1. Those Evil Israelies committed an unprovoked attack on superior forces and then attacked the USS Liberty to cover it up. 2. According to some they have also attacked the Marine Barracks in Lebanon and the WTC. 3. The refutation of my earlier post amounts to the idea that Israels nukes more closely resemble french nukes. 4. And the good ol USA just sat back and let Israel blast away at the Liberty without lifting a hand, for no reason... You may ask yourself, is dave pro israel? Yes. What does dave think about the Liberty incident? I think it was orchastrated by both sides, the ends justifies the means. I don't like it, but the politicos have gotten away with it, even today they manage to deflect any reasonable question. Do I truly know what happened? No, but my area of expertise in the service has enable me to put together information from various sources, both confirmed and unconfirmed, sort through the propaganda, and form an opinion, although I may not like the result. interesting thread none the less |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 6:26:32 AM EDT
[#40]
Thanks, dave, you've added an interesting twist not mentioned before. If true, it offers a motive for the attack. Certainly the *least* parsimonious explanation by far, but thought-provoking nonethelesss.
Unless the above is true, it still defies *any* logic as to why the Israelis would risk *WAR* with the U.S. with an unprovoked attack. I think it is the responsibility of the "they did it on purpose" crowd to prove that it wasn't a mistake, rather than the other way around. A horrible, horrible mistake that was handled badly by all involved, but a mistake nonetheless. "AND THAT'S ALL I'M GONNA SAY." No, really! I'm "OUT". Honest. Really, really. Uh-huh. So there! [;D] |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 6:34:22 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: 1) Did you or did you not state that the marine barracks bombing was carried out by the Israelis? NEVER. Clearly it was a Palestinian attack. Most I've EVER said re: Israel's involvment was that the claimed motivation of the palestinains for the attack being our support of Israel in the region. Carried out by Israelis? To my knowledge, there is ZERO evidence to support that. 2) Were you or were you not the person that flat fucking (pardon my offensive speech) insisted that the “jews” were responsible for 9/11? Is it possible the Jews were responsible? Yes. Is it possible that OUR gov't was responsible? Yes. (IMO the UNWILLINGNESS to consider those two possibilities may be fatal.) But the ONLY thing that I've insisted on is that Osama and his ilk be eradicated from the galaxy, cuz I KNOW they were involved. Quite posbily God alone will bring those resposible to final justice. In the meantime, I welcome our military's efforts to "give God a hand in that effort." 3) Have you or have you not been a regular participant in Damans BS "They wasted another jew today" threads? While I agree in principle with SOME of his logic, I do NOT deal in specifics. My involvment in these debates has ALWAYS been on more of a philosophical, logical, moral and intellectual level. I don't jump on the bandwagon of specific incidents as there is VERY LITTLE chance the real story is known about any of these "incidents." (The one exception being the USS Liberty, cuz that one is pretty cut and dried. We have eyewitness testimony by OUR sailors, and I'll ALWAYS beleive their word over some foreign gov'ts word) Neither side (Israel OR Palestine) can be considered an unbiased, reliable sourse of info, as they BOTH have too much at stake for how the world perceives these incidents. You got the wrong dude, Occifer. IMO, some of the people you ARE thinking of go beyond what I'm willing to say, but I still don't equate them as being pro-terrorist (yet). IMO, that's ONLY a tactic to be used to smear them, and avoid having to answer the pointed questions they ask. And an illegitimate tactic at that. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 6:50:11 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Post from Norm_G - Here's something I've never seen addressed. Nor will you [u]ever[/u], Norm_G. Eric The(NonparticipatingThisGoRound)Hun[>]:)] Not true. I gave a clear and concise treatment of that question, in big, bold, "font size=6" letters. As to why our gov't covered it up - If the American people had gotten wind of it, there would have been an "Operation Anaconda" carried out against Israel in 1967, and the Israel first / dual citizenship / loyalty in doubt / apologists in the USA couldn't allow their little "Six Day War" to be threatened. Hmmmmm....not much has changed. You gotta understand - I don't even blame the average Israeli on the street for this. I blame the "one-worlders" / Trilateral Commission types (like Dubya's daddy) MANY of whom are "Americans" (and I use that term VERY loosely) and not Israelis. When in doubt, re-read my paragraph above. And then read it again. learn it, know it, beleive it. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 6:50:46 AM EDT
[#43]
I support the idea of a sovereign Israeli state, free from attack.
I support the idea of a sovereign Palestinian state, free from attack. I believe the Liberty was attacked deliberately to prevent us from gathering intelligence. We should have stopped support of the Israelis immediately, and never resumed. A counter-attack would have been called for. McNamara should have been put to death for recalling our aircraft. That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 6:59:07 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: In the recent wiretapping scandal, where Israeli operatives infiltration and abuses caused the death of several US law enforcment officials, the pro-Israeli line on this board was "OF COURSE, ISrael is gonna spy on us. What 's the big deal?" You [i]may[/i] be misquoting me. As I said to DaMan in a similar vein, a better paraphrasement of my original comments would be: "OF COURSE nominally friendly nations spy on us. What's the surprise?" Do I either condone or approve it? NO! I condemn spying on the US regardless by whom done. However, I am not a childlike innocent, and I realize the spying will go on. As far as attempting, by implication, to label me as supporting another nation's actions that are/may be detrimental to the interests of the US, WRONG! I support the US, first, last, and always. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 7:02:06 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: I support the idea of a sovereign Israeli state, free from attack. I support the idea of a sovereign Palestinian state, free from attack. I believe the Liberty was attacked deliberately to prevent us from gathering intelligence. We should have stopped support of the Israelis immediately, and never resumed. A counter-attack would have been called for. McNamara should have been put to death for recalling our aircraft. That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it. I agree 1,000%. With all points. And since you brought up McNamara, I wanna agree 2,000% on that one. He should have been castrated with a rusty, dull Bowie knife, dunked in salt brine, and then be made to bleed to death out front of the Washington Monument. Add that to all the other things he did TO the USA, and he's a front runner for "Traitor of the Century." |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 7:03:25 AM EDT
[#46]
The Pueblo. the Mayaguez. the Cole. Incidents of Mexico and Canada firing on American flag vessels and killing americans over the past 15 years or so. That container ship somebody put a bunch of RPG's into in the Med back in the early 80's. Piracy in the Gulf of Mexico, A very real threat today. All unarmed civilian vessels or intel ships except for the Cole. All much more recent than the Liberty,and I'm sure there are some I'm missing. That said, the only one that seems to pop up here like a bad smell are threads concerning the USS Liberty and Israel. I don't like what this is telling me about some of my fellow gun owners.
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Posted: 3/15/2002 7:08:02 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Quoted: Good. Up to the next time, that US troops will shoot US soldiers or one of their allies. I don't have ot wait too much, unfortunately. And I am really curious to see your comments... True "friendly fire accidents" are measured in SECONDS in duration. NOT hours. A friendly fire accident that lasts more than 60 seconds is RARE. Consider the facts - 1. This was a clearly marked US ship - insignia, US lettering, and profile. 2. The ship was in international waters. 3. NO OTHER vessels were around. 4. it was BROAD DAYLIGHT. 5. No other military actions were occurring in a 15 mile perimeter, and no other craft were in that same perimeter. 6. US soldiers were easily able to identify the fast moving Israeli aircraft. Are the Israelis THAT incompetent to NOT be able to identify a slow moving US ship??? 7. Eight (count 'em EIGHT) flybys were performed by Israeli aircraft. They STILL screwed up??? 8. 800 rocket hits (never mind the misses) in a friendly fire accident? Please. How many aircraft are necessary for 800 rockets?? 9. After launching torpedoes, Israeli gunboats circled and strafed the Liberty for 45 minutes. If this is an accident, the Israelis should be put to death for STUPIDITY. 10. An Israeli helicopter hovered over the shattered Liberty after the hour and 15 minute long attack, AND NEVER OFFERED ASSISTANCE. Some ally. 11. The identification of the Liberty as a US vessel made the Israeli situation board BEFORE the attack. Erased by accident?? That's crap. 12. An "apology" (IMO pre-written) was forwarded to LBJ in MINUTES after the attack. NO WAY that happens in a true friendly fire accident. HOURS, perhaps DAYS, of investigation would normally occur before a formal apology would ever be forwarded in such an instance. 13. The Isrealis claimed they thought they were attacking an Egyptian ship ONE QUARTER the size of the Liberty. People with eyesight THAT bad never get to BE pilots. 14. The men WHO WERE THERE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. Your opinion is irrelevant. Did you even see the special?? Or is this just more "I'm sure Israel is not capable of evil" rhetoric???? Not capable? On the contrary. Did you read my signature? Do you think, Garandman, that USA are not able to behave evily? When I say USA I don't mean PEOPLE, I mean Govt. I hope that when you say "Israel" you mean her Govt. and not the people. I love Israel, but I detest her actual govt. See ya man... |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 7:08:31 AM EDT
[#48]
Johninaustin:
My opinion on this is very clear: If your fire on the US flag, you die. |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 7:12:43 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: You [i]may[/i] be misquoting me. As I said to DaMan in a similar vein, a better paraphrasement of my original comments would be: "OF COURSE nominally friendly nations spy on us. What's the surprise?" Do I either condone or approve it? NO! I condemn spying on the US regardless by whom done. However, I am not a childlike innocent, and I realize the spying will go on. As far as attempting, by implication, to label me as supporting another nation's actions that are/may be detrimental to the interests of the US, WRONG! I support the US, first, last, and always. I certainly hope (and WISH to beleive) in your loyalty. I was more referring to a general attitude EVERY TIME US law enforment or sailors die and high-level Israelis are DIRECTLY implicated, there's a general "shrug of the shoulders" and COMPLETE AND TOTAL lack of outrage that IMO should be an instinctive response. What I'm seeing from the Israel supporters is a "Hey - Whatcha gonna do?" attitude, even as the flag draped coffins are passing by. Where's the outrage?? They are "your" (used to address the WHOLE board, not raf specifically) countrymen. Where's the outrage???? |
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Posted: 3/15/2002 7:19:31 AM EDT
[#50]
Kpel308, I don't have a problem with that. There is a 30/06 and a shotgun in the rod locker for that very reason. What disturbs me is the harping on an single incident that occurred when I was 5 years old to further what comes across as some sort of racist/anti-Jew garbage. |
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