Damn, did you see that stuff on the news last night?  Those guys are blowing the shit outta each other.  I feel absolutely positively that there is going to be a knock-down drag out war over there.

I was out getting comfortably numb, so inform me what happened?  I'm hoping war comes soon, I'd love to see israel kick some ass!

They stood upright??? Damn, I missed that too.

Oivay!

Minman said: "I'm hoping war comes soon, I'd love to see israel kick some ass!"

HOW OLD ARE YOU?

To reiterate, the Israeli's went into some of the PLO camps with serious weaponry and kicked  somme serious ass.  Apparently there intel says that for the upcoming passover holiday, that the Palestinians were going to launch a shit-load of attacks all over Israel.  Would sorta make sense as passover celebrates that perod when God "removed" the Egyptians from Egypt.

Push the animals into the sea, then wall the country off so they can't sneak back in (easily).

Israel needs to FINISH this thing.

Hmmmm, Budy we don't want this war. This one isn't going to be like anything you have ever saw before.  Watch Syria.  Watch IRAQ. Watch Egypt. Watch IRAN.  If this war gets as big as I think it could then its gonna make Normandy look like the Invasion of Sicily.  The fact that some city in the US is going to get wiped off the face of the planet my be a forgone conclusion.  This is serious.

This war is necessary but its going to be a bitch.

Old enough to know that enough is enough over there.  If the gloves come off completely, you can be sure that the suicide bombers will be flushed out and executed like the animals they are.  As long as there is some semblance of restraint from the Israelis, then they will continue to be murdered.  

Their position is no different than ours.  They must kill the enemy, stop senseless civilian casualties and tell the world to mind their f*cking business while they take care of their country.

Do you disagree?  

Did anyone else catch the footage of the guy with the M-16 getting obliterated by a tank (I think it was a tank) right on camera?  One second he's shooting, next second, all gone.

There is not only going to be a war there, but one in the US also.

Oh and just wanted to add--none of this is necessary at all.  It's all a result of very poor management at the highest levels.  

Only if other countries come to the aid of Palestine and we have to overtly support Israel's war effort.  I don't think that the Palistinians would want to bring us into it by hitting us at the same time.  

I think GWB is going to let the Israelis fight this one for themselves.

War.... there has always been some kind of war there.  Sometimes the press does't notice it....  

Has been & always will be.....

I can't believe I read that. Maybe here in Aus we get some slightly more balanced reporting which makes us less radical.
Like it or not -Israel- is the occupying force here. They took the land (most of it) in a war.

How the hell would you blokes feel if the Canadians come down south, kicked your ass, tossed you out of your homes, and marked you as underclass citizens just because you're 'Americans'.

You'd fight back too huh?

(Actually, come to think of it, that's something I'd like to see... Goooo Canada! ;) )

But you get my point... What Israel needs to do is elect a more moderate government that actually -wants- peace, and isn't just paying it lip service.

... It sure is escalating over there. Mom used to tell me to read the New Testament, especially Revelations for an accurate depiction of our direction towards Armageddon.

It always did spook me to read that last chapter in the Bible.

It certainly seems we are right at a point in time where certain descriptions correspond with what was written.

Anyone else study that part of the Bible further?

Winston_Wolf

I also read Revelations and yes I believe we are very close to the End Time. I believe that we only have about another ten years until our Lord returns, in the year 2012.  

I also like to know what some of the prophecies have to say about the end times. This site is very useful.

The Main site http://www.aleph-tav.org/

The Prophecys of Dumitru Duduman,  

http://www.aleph-tav.org/dum-index.html  

check out America Will Burn

[b]The Two Witnesses - Revelation, Chapter 11:[/b]

3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4   These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5   And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6   These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9   [b]And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves[/b].
10   And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11   And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12   And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Sorry for the lengthy intro, but I wanted to put what I was going to say into context.

When I used to read Adam Clark's Commentaries on the New Testament, written in the early 1800s, when it came time to discuss these 'Two Witnesses', Clark would always say that they were symbolic only, 'cause how could all the nations and peoples of the earth see the dead witnesses lying in the streets of Jerusalem?

[b]What old Clark didn't know, or couldn't imagine was CNN and satellite transmission![/b]

So now, when the Two Witnesses are slain, the whole earth will be able to see that deed!

So even cable television serves the purposes of the Lord, heh-heh.

Eric The(Redeemed)Hun[>]:)]

BTW, who [u]are[/u] these Two Witnesses?

Any educated guesses?

Eric The(BibleSchoolFool)Hun[>]:)]

I understand your point BUT remember who started the wars (yes, several of them) with Israel. Think of what Syria would do if they had the Golan Heights back. When they were at war with Isreal, they used the hills in the area to launch attacks at the Isrealis. They have vowed to do so again and given the opportunity, they would.  If ever there was a country that was so against Jews it would be Syria. For years, they harbored a Nazi war criminal. They refused to turn him over to ANYONE stating "Anyone who hates Jews is a friend of ours". These were published in newspapers, even liberal papers like the [U]Los Angeles Times[/U] has, in the past, published this.

Give back this territory, what would this really solve????

Who would it appease, what friends do they have around them??? Name one!!! Name one WILLING to be their friend!!!!

I sure hope so. Israel needs to finish this thing once and for all.

Did he get squashed or shot up?

Admittedly it's been 5 years since I studied the history of the region, but here's how I remember it:

The 1st war started when then so called 'Jewish Terrorists' disrupted a palestinian protest. It escalated into an arab-israel war, but it could still be argued that israel started it (or at least some of its citizens did).

Same goes for the 2nd war. The Egyptian president (can't remember his name) nationalised the canal, which was arguably within his rights. Israel didn't like it, they invaded. Boom, there's your war.

You definitely can't argue that the arabs started the 6 day war. Even the israelis called their action a 'pre-emptive strike'.

The last war ('73 or '74?) I'll grant you. The arabs started it to try and win back what they lost in the 6 day war.



I was under the impression that the treaty with Egypt also applies to Syria.
If not, I still think that if Israel can make peace with Lebanon and Jordan they should be able to manage it with Syria.



And the United States harboured Nazi war criminals, refusing to turn them over for prosecution stating that they were necessary for the ongoing defense of the nation. It's matter of perspective.



Achieve? Peace hopefully... I would have thought that that in over 50 years Israel might have learned that taking land doesn't endear them to their neighbours. I'm not saying it won't have its associated problems, but maybe it's time to try giving some back.

Does anyone else ever wonder how things would have turned out if the Jews had decided to make part of Argentina their homeland after all?

'Fess up Eric it's you and Tony Robbins.[^]

[thinking][bounce][thinking][bounce][thinking]

[:)>]

and here all this time i thought it was eric and garandman. imagine my disappointment.

To those that didn't see it, there's this dude shooting at an Israeli tank with (I didn't think it was an M-16) I think it was a Gali (or perhaps a FN), he's around the corner of this building, he stops shooting for just a second and steps further behind the building.  Suddenly the tank shoots, takes the corner of the building out and the dude vanishes in a cloud of smoke and dust.  AWESOME.

Sorry, [b]lurker[/b], but I have it on good authority that [b]garandman[/b] will never willfully set foot in Israel!

He may, however, be dragged there kicking and screaming when the appropriate time comes.

Eric The(We'llAllKnowWhenThatTimeIs)Hun[>]:)]

It's likely within our lifetime, but not for a while yet.  First they have to agree on peace. :)

Time to get this the fuck over with. It'll be long, hard and bloody but to not do so will end up being more costly.

As for Revelations/Armageddon an awful lot has to happen before that can occur. Try reading the whole thing. I don't believe we are close to that now. May never happen.

Thats exactly the issue,  We can spend the next 20 years and loose millions or we can pay the man now and loose 50,000 plus whatever get taken from the US Stateside.

Benjamin

Minman-

Do I agree that sometimes enough is enough?

Sure.

DO I agree that I can't imagine a nation with the capabilities of Israel sitting there and taking what has been happenning?

Sure.

Would I counsel Isreal to sit on it's hands while cowards vaporize women and children as they eat pizza?

No, I'd say gloves off.


That was not my point.

You said you hope ther's a war.

Only a fool hopes for war.

Such high-minded bluster is usually reserved for those who will be sending others to fight and die while they sit comfortably in an air-conditioned bunker.  I hope you're planning on being the first one over the rail/berm/whatever with a pistol held high over your head--CHARGE!  Sniper bait...

     I just hope everyone realize's that the cost now will be nothing compared to what it will be if sit on our hands and don't take care of this problem.

     My possible cost: 2 sons, 1 daughter, 1 stepson who are within 4 years plus or minus being 18 years old. I have plenty to lose. But I would think they would rather fight than live in fear of these two-faced goat-smelling butt sniffers. If they don't, I will gladly take their place. [:D]

Bluster?
What do you know about it?

[rolleyes]  Have you ever been to Israel?  If you ever did, you would understand better than you do at present. The Palestinians are ghetto animals mired in 12th century religion (intolerant) who are trying to steal back all that the Jews have built and done with the desert since Israel became a recognized nation.

The Palestinians had their chance for peace (Camp David 2000), they failed to take the opportunity. Israel owes the animals [u]nothing[/u] except for their little "Indian reservations" now known as Gaza and the West Bank.  

Push them back and wall them off until they can play nicely with others. Israel will survive and prosper once the Palestinian menace has been dealt with.

Israel certainly isn't perfect (just like the US), but it is WAAAAAAAY better than anything else in the region.

No, I haven't been to Israel. And I'll admit I might be biased by my overwhelmingly positive experiences with Muslims.
I've traveled through a number of Arab nations, and the people have -always- been friendly and respectful to me (an anglo-saxon). They were open, honest and terribly kind (taking in a lost backpacker in the middle of the night).
Also when I was young, for 10 years my mother coordinated a Migrant Resource Center where I met a lot of arabs from various countries. To be brutally honest, (with one extreme exception) they were much friendlier then the old Jewish WW2 refugees who also used to come there.
And lastly... No I'm not done yet. My neighbour, and very good friend is Palestinian. Were often dropping in on each other (he's got the cable, I've got the big-screen). At 1am on September 12th (that's when it was happening here in Aus) he was on my doorstep trying to fight back tears. We were up the whole night watching it with the two families.

Ok, so I might have one side of the picture more clearly then the other. At least I don't resort to stereotyping the Israelis as 'animals' because I don't know them as well.

As for the religion of Islam. Well 12th century would make it a lot more 'modern' then Judaism. And from what I've learned over the years it seems far more compassionate and relevant then the Catholisism that my parents grew up with (and thankfully didn't foist on me).

The simple fact is that with extremists on both sides making policy, you're never going to get a balanced view unless you really look for it. It's so easy to just believe the crap that we get spoonfed to us here in the west huh?

While soldiers, airman and sailors pray for peace.

You know, I think the problem there is with the leaders.  Put a bunch of children together and they'll play together without concern for race, color, or creed.  Take two groups divided by whatever, and you'll find that each group has a leader who maintains control and power through maintaining the conflict with the other group. If those two groups were to merge, become as one, then there would be no need for the leaders.  Hence the leaders perpetuate the conflict.  Get rid of the leaders and you'll get rid of the conflict.

The sooner the better for all out war in the Mid East!  I want peace as much as the next guy but understand to have it one side must crush the other.  It is way past time for Israel to crush the other side.  Any country that joins with the Palestinians is a bonus - we get to see their ass kicked as well.  Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi and others all need to be smashed to rubble in order to put an end to this crap.  US safety depends on it!

Bring it ON!!

But Israel is a democracy, with the Palestinians represented in their parliament.  The two groups ARE (were) one.

Hmm... you're in the West, huh? I didn't realize that Australians thought of themselves that way. Well, you learn something new every day.

You know, another thing that is just so easy to believe, is that there are people who translate their own personal friendships onto the broader Arab and Muslim world as being representative, when they are not.

BTW: Do you think that there should be any limits on immigration in Australia... or the more friendly and peaceful muslims the better?

The term "Palestinian" defines a new level of stupidity.  Why aren't these scumbags building casinos in Gaza and Ramallah and luring busloads of elderly Israelis with free lunch coupons and rolls of slot machine tokens?  Instead of making war, they should be thinking, "Let's make money!"  The Palestians are considered by their neighbors to be the n-----s of the Arab World.  Why can't they see what another vanquished native tribe, the American Indians, did with their land?  Roll the dice dudes and put away the guns!

So if you don't think Israel should sit on its hands, that enough is enough, and that the gloves should come off, aren't you as much a fool as I?  

We're not talking hypothetical countries here citadel, you should know that.  We are talking about a tangible problem that has gone unchecked or UNDERCHECKED for too long.  We both advocate the same thing, except I'm not pussy enough to play the second guessing game.  I think the gloves have come off and its time to come out swinging until the other side is swinging from the rafters.

Shooter: The term 'western world' doesn't actually denote a geographical location (and hasn't for as long as I can remember). It's used to define the modern, wealthy, industrialised nations. Which means it applies to most of Western and Northern Europe, the US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, etc.
Geographically speaking, we're on one great big ball. You're always west of somewhere. ;)

Now for the more serious stuff, I could see your point -if- my opinions were solely restricted to my experiences with this one friend, but they aren't and I thought I'd made that clear. I've backpacked through some muslim nations, including Egypt, Turkey, and the UAE. I've met the people, eaten with them, stayed with them, and more often then not had long conversations into the wee small hours of the morning with them, sometimes in very fumbled english with a lot of exaggerated hand gestures (but I found most people my age can speak it well enough to hold a good conversation in).
There's also 10 years, give or take, of meeting new and old immigrants to Australia, including many Arabs and Muslims (remember, they're not always the same thing) and watching my mother help them through the transition. Yes that was as a child, but I -grew up- with that, and it's had big impact on the way I look at life.

I'm not some armchair politician, or radical student type. I've been out there, I've seen some of it, and yes I do think what I've seen is representative of the people there (at least in those countries) -that's- what I went there for, not for the tourist traps... Hell I never even went to see the pyramids.
The one thing I've learned over the last few years, is that no matter where you go the world is full of good, kind, hard working people. And if you show them respect, they'll do the same for you.
But you seem to want to believe otherwise.

As for immigration, yes there should be controls. You can't just have everyone always moving to where the pickings are good. That said, I tend to agree with the studies that show Australia can easily support a population of 50 million people (we're only at 19 now, with 80% in only a handful of cities) which means we can take a lot more. It would relieve the burden on overpopulated countries somewhat, and build our own infrastructure.

Also, I think what we do to refugees here in Australia is criminal. Locking them up in what amounts to concentration camps where they're a drain on our resources but aren't allowed to contribute to our society even though they may want to, then after a while we say "war's over" and send them home to a country with too little shelter, no food stocks, no crops, extremes of weather, no infrastructure, and no employment prospects.
We did it to the Kosovars, and now we're doing it to the Afghans.

I've seen how it's done in Holland, Belgium and Germany... Yes they have problems too (no such thing as a perfect system), but their system is far more equitable. At the very least the refugees there get the chance to contribute. Here we have businesses (mostly rural) going broke because there are no locals to fill the job vacancies and our government refuses to let  the refugees work in them (because they'd need to let them out of the 'detention centers').