I just came across this comment in “to Be, or not … to Bop” by Dizzy Gillespie.  The quote is from Kenny Clarke, known as “Klook”, the drummer who, along with Diz and Charlie Parker and Monk were the core players who developed modern jazz, often called BeBop.

All these guys had studied music and understood music theory to the point where they could change the chords in a piece of music and make it sound very different and better than the original.  
They also used this to weed out players who didn’t know what they were doing.

They’d play “I Got Rhythm”, but instead of playing the usual B-flat and D-flat, they’d stick in a G-flat or F chord.  The guys who couldn’t follow the changes would end up standing there.  They couldn’t get in for a solo because they didn’t understand what was going on.

When I was jamming in high school and college, we’d do the same thing.  We’d substitute chords or change an F-major chord to a D-minor 7th or something like that.  Pretty soon, the guys who were self-taught and hadn’t actually studied music would be gone and we could get on with it.  

If you want to be a real musician, do it intelligently.  Get some education.  Learn how your music works.  If you’re ignorant about what you’re doing, you’ll never have the respect of those who’ve studied.  You’ll never progress beyond the lowest level of your craft.

Great post!

Of course, for the sake of the argument, I believe it was Carlos Santana who said, "Music ain't no A,B,C". And, IIRC, Wes Montgomery had no formal training and played by ear. Chet Atkins once commented, "I know just enough theory to not hurt my playing". Now, obviously, Wes was something else, entirely. And, Santana was just saying that music is feel - which is true.

Still, I think musical learning is very important. I'm a total lesson junkie. Just this Christmas my wife bought me a masterclass lesson with Steve Herberman. I have been going over alot of Ted Greene's material on harmony and I have been trying to learn how to play more pianistically (if that's a word). Half my Ipod is stuff to train my ear. So, I definitely think that learning to play better is good for people, and can be fun. Especially for older guys who have nobody to play with anymore. I wish I had more time to practice. I have alot of books I cannot get into for lack of time.

I've studied scale theory for many years. Have always been fascinated with the math behind all the notes. Understanding the theory helps us build music...it's a lot like engineering in that way.

Playing guitar is a lot of muscle memory and physical mechanics. Understanding the scales allows us to develop music....practice provides us the opportunity to improve dexterity on the neck. It really takes both theorhetical knowledge and physical ability.....study and practice are the way to gain both

Because music should only belong to "professionals".

+1

+2

Santana and Atkins frankly, didn’t require a whole lot of musical knowledge.  Montgomery, on the other hand, worked his butt off learning music theory.  Take a look at the changes in S.O.S.  Dm, Cm7, F7, BbM7, Em7b5 (that flat 5 is right out of Dizzy’s playbook) and so on.  Wes was a great musician who knew exactly what he was doing and why.  


Spoken like a true amateur.  

Spoken like an arrogant elitist.

Spoken like a true arrogant elitist.

So folk music or mountain music performance by people who taught themselves is not "real music?

Eric Clapton, not a "real musician".

Jimi Hendrix... not a real musician.

Duane and Gregg Allman, not real musicians.

Neither are Malcom and Angus Young.

There are PLENTY of us who have NO desire to EVER be a professional. EVER.

Billy Joel, self taught.  Well, he did have lessons as a young boy, but quit early on because he was better than his teachers.  He is a prodigy though, does that count?
Lennon and McCartney, self taught.  Not real musicians then I guess.  
Danny Elfman, a pretty famous composer.  Self taught, I guess he isn't professional enough.  
Hans Zimmer, Wes Montgomery... I guess they suck too.  
Duke Ellington, took piano lessons as a child from a neighbor.  Quit to play baseball.  I guess his contributions don't count because he didn't attend Juliard eh?


OP, you are wrong about this.  I could go on and on for hours.  I could also list a few hundred classically trained virtuoso's who nobody has ever heard of because they've done nothing with their talent.  Their music is lifeless, just notes on a page.  

I can't read a lick of proper sheet music, but I can read tab like a mo-fo. Guess I will have to forget my dream of playing for the Lincoln Center and just enjoy entertaining all the folks at the local restaurant where they pay money for me to play or do it for my fam/friends for free like I did last night.

Blaspheming heathen.  

Sure, you can make a living if you can’t read music and don’t have a clue about music theory.  You can learn to play by rote with four or five chords in a few keys.  You won’t know what key you’re in, but that doesn’t matter to most of the rock guitarists I’ve known over the last 40 years.  They can play the same songs in the same keys time after time and look cool doing it.  Change the key, though, and they’re screwed.  They won’t know the tabs and won’t have a clue how to figure them out.  If they play a solo, it’s almost sure to be the one they heard on the CD.  

Look, if all you want or need to do is build foot-long bridges with Lego blocks, that’s fine.  I hope you’re happy.  Just don’t fool yourself into thinking you’re a Civil Engineer.  

You don’t have to attend a famous music school to be a great musician.  As has been noted, there are plenty of examples of great musicians who didn’t get a formal education.  But they did get an education.  They weren’t “self taught”.  They learned from musicians who knew more than they did.  They read books on music theory and composition.  They studied for years to learn all they could about music.  

Being ignorant of music isn’t a disgrace.  Being ignorant of music and proud of it, that’s a disgrace.  Being unwilling to learn, that’s a disgrace.  

So, you are basing all of this on a quote from a book?  Do you have any working knowledge of music?  Music theory?  Are you a musician, composer, singer or just a critic?

Welcome to pop music.
The Edge from U2 has enough money to burn a wet mule.
And he's lost around the greats.

So you've got a band I take it?

Some people can express themselves musically without understanding the theory behind a sharp 5th or flat 3rd.  Lot's of great musicians wouldn't know what 4 sharps in a key meant.  It isn't important.  What is important is making sound that is musical.  And expressing the human condition.  Consider the course of most of modern music today.  Blues, jazz, rock ALL sprung from poor uneducated black folk music.  Some of them might not have even known there was such a thing as a key but they could express beauty through sound.

My mother was town piano teacher.  My brother music major classical piano trained.  Me music theory to a mediocre level.  I value music theory and training I just don't place it above the true love of and natural expression of music by anyone that feels the drive.

As to rock players who can't change key?  I've never met a real professional (like my two most recent teachers) who couldn't tell you EXACTLY why they did what they did and what key they were in or how to transpose it in a heartbeat.  

And amateur musicians shouldn't be belittled for their lack of classical training.  If they embrace music it makes their world better.  Our world better.

I've got two degrees in music.  I was hired right out of college by a major brass quintet in NYC.  A job like that leads to lots of studio work.  That's the main reason I have such a low opinion of the lowest-common-denominator crap that passes for "music".  

Here's something to think about:  When was the last time an instrumental piece made it to the top 40?  There have been some, but they're rare.  Pop music is based around flashy singers, lasers and pyro, bad 7th grade lyrics and a loud beat.  There's virtually no demand for anyone who can do more than play backup and canned solos.  

Dude...you have no idea how pissed off I spent a good portion of the early 90's for this reason alone. I studied...I practiced...I could sight-read...and I felt like I could play. Of course, all the major acts bringing in millions of dollars werent even playing  what I considered to be music. Thing is, they entertained people. The public didn't want to hear virtuoso musicians....they wanted bubble gum and cheap wine...and that is what they bought.

Music is art, and frankly, art has no rules. Obviously there are some undeniable patterns that emerge when we examine music, and when used as a basis for building a foundation, those patterns have value. That said, there are artists without traditional instruction who entertain me. I will always continue to study and practice, but I won't deny that many people produce great stuff without personally embracing the math behind the music. And more to the point, I accept (begrudgingly) that the music industry is more interested in promoting what sells, irrespective of talent.

We don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band

It ain't what they call rock and roll

Pretty sure you are the only one here that is assuming they are the "Civil Engineer" and not the lego builder. I always joke that I just try to not run people off and make the dog howl.  I learn constantly from any and every guitar player I can from playing with a better musician to learning songs from tv (learned a lot of songs with the good old dvr, play...pause...rewind...play....rewind....play....ah ha!). If someone takes the time to learn an instrument and tries to make a joyful noise in the best way they know how, and attempts to make that noise better and more consistent every single time they are good in my book. I am sorry that you are for some reason so jaded.

Very true.  Musical sophistication hardly exists in this country and the reason is simple.  Almost all radio stations play garbage.  All people hear is garbage.  The general population isn’t exposed to good music, so they don’t have any way to understand it when they do hear it.


Also very true.  It’s much cheaper to buy studio time for two guitars, a keyboard player, a drummer and a girl singer with big boobs and little talent than for a 12-40 piece band or orchestra.  

If you don’t hear good music, you’ll think high-end garbage is great.  

Enjoy your bitter life of obscurity.

I'll continue to enjoy dumb musicians like Dave Grohl and Dave Mustaine who know nothing about music theory.

I agree completely with your reasoning, but, I absolutely believe that there are alotof folks with  a pretty high level of musical sophistication in this country. The thing is, they all have day jobs. Even "large" acts in bluegrass, Americana, jazz, classical, etc. I can name a large number of incredibly talented, orginal artists - learned or unlearned - who are not making very much money. It is a shame.

Old trumpet player's joke:

How does a professional trumpet player increase his gas milage?

He takes the Dominoes sign off the roof of his car!

One of my closest friends is a professional jazz trumpet player.
He is an IT professional for Coke.
His younger brother is a jazz drummer in Chicago. He's a waiter.

My father was a professional musician - and an elitist. He had several degrees in it and at different times was the director of the Birmingham Ballet, concert master of the Birmingham Symphony, Director of the Springfield Symphony, taught at major universities, and was a studio musician.

All that adds up to a hill of beans. I play my brass the way I want to play it and fuck all to those that dont like it.  I have theory books coming out of my ass in the basement. Theory means squat unless you are willing to apply it. I like my music to swing and it does.

This thread needs more cowbell.

First off, Japle, you did come across arrogantly.

Second, you have a very good point. Anybody that plays should know at least some theory.

Me personally, I don't know much about theory. I've been learning some chords & have figured out some scales here & there, but I don't know the names for all of them. It's just something I don't have much time for, largely because of my job. And someday, yes, I would like to really learn theory.

Oh, and I don't give a shit if music is simple or complex. Metal, Country, Blues, Classical, Southern Rock, old school rock & roll, whatever, If I like it, I like it. I, along with many in this thread, am not a music snob.

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As I mentioned in another post, when we held jam sessions, we often had players show up who didn’t have the skills to keep up with the more advanced players.  They might be pretty good in Bb and maybe Eb or F, but that was all they’d learned.  Al, the piano player, would check them out by modulating into G or Ab or D or C.  The guys who weren’t able to play in those keys would drop out.  Sometimes they’d stay to listen and sometimes they’d leave.

We didn’t do this to exclude them.  The ones who had ambition and discipline would go home and do some work.  They’d learn to improvise in all the keys and come back.  They’d be welcome.  We were always looking for good players, because everyone knows something valuable.  Everyone has ideas you can use.  The point is, if they don’t have the skills necessary to express their ideas, those ideas might as well not exist.  

Very few of us could really play the piano, but we all used it to discover new harmonies.  When you see that you can hold an E while the chords change from AM9 to AM9/G# to C7/G to E7, making that E sound slightly different as the chords change, that’s just cool.  Players came up with stuff like that all the time.  Those were the players you want to have around you as you develop your individual style.  

Maybe I have come off as arrogant.  I learned to respect the people who were willing to put in the time and sweat to learn their craft.  Those who weren’t willing to do that might be having fun, but they were limiting themselves unnecessarily.  It’s like a shooter who says, “I’m only going to shoot .22 single-shot rifles with open sights.  I don’t need to learn about repeaters or scopes or all that centerfire stuff.”  There’s so much more to learn.  Music is so much more fun and rewarding if you understand it.

Or those who buy all the tricked out crap for their AR15 and never become a soldier of fortune or mercenary.

Been playing 34 plus years and I don't know squat about music theory or tabs.
Never had to many problems playing with total strangers in any chord progression they cared to use, but I do know
a few scales and how to use them.
I have tried to study theory but I just can not seem to grasp it. I wish I did know more about theory,
it would make it easier getting others up to speed on what and how I play that can not play by ear.
I have also seen people that know theory front to back that have no playing ability of any kind and I have seen people who
know nothing much past the first position on a guitar that can bring tears to your eyes.
And I might add that I do respect and admire people who have a high degree of technical ability in music
and I do work at my craft also( never too old to learn new things) and I try to play at least one to two hours a day.

The Who, Rolling Stones, Chicago, Tower of Power, Memphis Horns, etc say you're full of shit.


Japle,
I hear you on many accounts.  I think the problem is that just about ALL popular music is about image (and almost no substance) anymore.  I remember seeing the very first video MTV aired..."Video killed the radio star".  Granted I was in middle school and was like .   In hindsight, holy shit was that song ever true.   Generally speaking, the very best in the industry are the unknown studio musicians that no one ever sees.  

I think alot of you took Japle's words a bit too harshly.  He didn't say you had to go to music school, he just said get some training in theory (especially if you want to make a career out of it or be competitive).  

Music is very much like athletics in that both are evolving.  Look at the sports (or music) superstars from 50-60 years ago.  Now, we have high school kids doing the same stuff.   The very same can be said of music.  If you want to go far, you need some sort of training.  Before you start saying "yeah, well what about so-and-so, they only have one finger, no eyes, and red hair and they've made trillions playing panpipes"....well, keep in mind, they're the exception not the rule.

Hey retard. It's a quote from Sultans of Swing.

You're an idiot.

Quote or not, you posted it and must have found it appropriate.  Either way, if you're going to post a quote, get it right.  It's "They don't give a damn..."

You know what's even funnier?
Mars_Attacks is a trumpet player.

Then that explains the fucked up quote.

I think he got it right.  It was funny too.  Lighten up.  He wasn't attacking trumpets or horns just quoting....

never mind.  Gotta go

Geez, this is worse than 9mm vs. .45acp.  

My take:  you can certainly play music without knowing theory.  You can speak (even eloquently)  without knowing grammar, right?  

But knowing theory can ONLY HELP your playing.  

My story (brief version.)  I decided to play bass in junior high.  My first book was a Mel Bay guitar chord book that went into some detail on chord theory. So I learned it.  When I started playing with bands, I knew all my I IV V ii vi stuff.  A song was a progression, so I only had to know the progression to know the bass line.  Rather than learning it note for note.  I developed a reputation for being able to hear something once, and then play it accurately.  Which was pretty much true.  So I was the "in demand" bass player all through college because I knew theory.  (I never told anyone that, I just let them think I could play anything after hearing it once.)

So theory can't hurt, it can only help.

A short example of what DaveSpud’s talking about:

We had a new bass player who knew the standard progressions for the pieces we were playing, but we’d changed some of the chords.  For instance, in one place, we’d changed an F Major chord (F, A, C) to a D minor 7th chord (D, F, A, C).  When the bass player hit an F, he was playing a note in the chord, but not the root of the chord.  He knew something was wrong, so he asked the piano player what he was doing wrong.  Once it was explained to him, no more problems.  

There are a lot of subtle things you can do that will change the feel of the music.  On up-tempo numbers, the bass player holds the beat “in the middle” and the drummer “pushes” the beat just a bit.  They’re both playing the same tempo, but the drummer is getting to each beat just a hair ahead of the bass player and everyone else.  This gives the music extra tension and life.  The group has to stay with the bass player, though, or it doesn’t work.