User Panel
Posted: 11/11/2012 6:06:41 PM EDT
By SUSAN CAREY, JACK NICAS and ANDY PASZTOR
U.S. airlines are facing what threatens to be their most serious pilot shortage since the 1960s, with higher experience requirements for new hires about to take hold just as the industry braces for a wave of retirements. Federal mandates taking effect next summer will require all newly hired pilots to have at least 1,500 hours of prior flight experience—six times the current minimum—raising the cost and time to train new fliers in an era when pay cuts and more-demanding schedules already have made the profession less attractive. Meanwhile, thousands of senior pilots at major airlines soon will start hitting the mandatory retirement age of 65. Enlarge Image Emily Berl for The Wall Street Journal A rule requiring new airline pilots to have at least 1,500 flying hours will postpone the day flight instructor John Adkins, above, can join a carrier. Another federal safety rule, to take effect in early 2014, also will squeeze the supply, by giving pilots more daily rest time. This change is expected to force passenger airlines to increase their pilot ranks by at least 5%. Adding to the problem is a small but steady stream of U.S. pilots moving to overseas carriers, many of which already face an acute shortage of aviators and pay handsomely to land well-trained U.S. captains. "This is going to come to a crisis," said Bob Reding, recently retired executive vice president of operations at AMR Corp.'s AAMRQ -2.70% American Airlines and now a consultant to FlightSafety International Inc., an aviation training provider. Added Kit Darby, a consultant on pilot-hiring trends: "We are about four years from a solution, but we are only about six months away from a problem." Estimates differ on the problem's magnitude. Airlines for America, a trade group of the largest carriers that collectively employ 50,800 pilots now, cites a study by the University of North Dakota's aviation department that indicates major airlines will need to hire 60,000 pilots by 2025 to replace departures and cover expansion. Mr. Darby's firm calculates that all U.S. airlines, including cargo, charter and regional carriers, together employ nearly 96,000 pilots, and will need to find more than 65,000 over the next eight years. In the past eight years, not quite 36,000 pilots have passed the Federal Aviation Administration's highest test, the Air Transport Pilot exam, which all pilots would have to pass under the congressionally imposed rules. For passengers, the biggest impact is expected to be at smaller, regional carriers. They have traditionally been a training ground feeding pilots to the bigger airlines, which are expected to step up their poaching. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203937004578079391643223634.html#articleTabs%3Darticle |
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Kit Darby has made millions from his supposed Pilot Shortage!!! (tm)
Honestly, I'm a little surprised that nobody has killed him yet, or at least kicked his ass. It can be great job but it's a lousy career. There will never be a "shortage" because people love the idea of being paid to fly. People spreading the "Pilot Shortage" myth are conmen and crooks, nothing more. |
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The only amazing part about the pilot shortage is that 50000 otherwise reasonably intelligent people can be conned into believing there is a pilot shortage. |
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What does a regional carrier pay a captain these days? Pretty damn close to nothing. |
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What does a regional carrier pay a captain these days? What they should be paying FOs. |
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What does a regional carrier pay a captain these days? Anywhere from 40-80k, generally speaking. Some more, some less. ETA. First year and top out pay. American Eagle - $1,875 / $7,560 Atlantic Southeast - $1,725 / $8,025 Colgan - $1,950 / $7,950 Comair - $1,650 / $7425 Express Jet- $1,725 / $7275 Horizon - $2,175 / $9,075 Mesa✈ - $1,444 / $7,904 Mesaba✈ - $1,950 / $7,950 Pinnacle✈ $1,950 / $7,950 Republic✈* - $1,725 / $8,925 Skywest $1,650 / $7,950 Trans States $1,540 / $5,740 |
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The only amazing part about the pilot shortage is that 50000 otherwise reasonably intelligent people can be conned into believing there is a pilot shortage. That should be somebody's sigline |
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I just flew a 4 day trip on contract where I made more per day than a regional FO makes per week.
It's just so sad at the regional level. The only good news is times are changing some as evidenced by training completion bonuses. This time last year Express Jet had a pool of 2000 applicants to interview from. A few weeks ago that pool was 23. Eventually they'll be forced to pay a liveable wage. Hopefully pilots aren't programmed out of the cockpit by then. |
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I just flew a 4 day trip on contract where I made more per day than a regional FO makes per week. It's just so sad at the regional level. The only good news is times are changing some as evidenced by training completion bonuses. This time last year Express Jet had a pool of 2000 applicants to interview from. A few weeks ago that pool was 23. Eventually they'll be forced to pay a liveable wage. Hopefully pilots aren't programmed out of the cockpit by then. There is going to be a much smaller pool of ATP rated pilots. Hard to pilot mill to ATP standards and those who have earned the ATP aren't going to fly for 20 grand a year. It's past time the regionals pay a liveable wage. Kit Darby has been making crap up, has been for many years |
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Well I guess the majors need to nut up and find applicants. Maybe buy a few Kingairs and start doing training on their own dime. There are such things as employment contracts and non compete clauses you know. Could be easily done following a military type training program. Airline transportation is a national security issue I would be cool with a small subsidy to the airlines for this type of training. Who in the blue fuck can afford to pay for 1500 hours of PIC time for a < 50 grand a year job.
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I contemplated dropping out after my 1st year of college to pursue an aviation career. After reading the book "Squawk 7700" I'm glad I stuck it out and got the engineering degree instead.
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and those who have earned the ATP aren't going to fly for 20 grand a year. It's past time the regionals pay a liveable wage. I dunno about that... I've seen plenty of CFI's jump ship from a decent paying instructing job to the right seat of a Brasilia (and they paid for their own training!), just because it was 'turbine time', and made half the money as a FO they did as a CFI |
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Well I guess the majors need to nut up and find applicants. Maybe buy a few Kingairs and start doing training on their own dime. There are such things as employment contracts and non compete clauses you know. Could be easily done following a military type training program. Airline transportation is a national security issue I would be cool with a small subsidy to the airlines for this type of training. Who in the blue fuck can afford to pay for 1500 hours of PIC time for a < 50 <30 grand a year job. FIFY |
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and those who have earned the ATP aren't going to fly for 20 grand a year. It's past time the regionals pay a liveable wage. I dunno about that... I've seen plenty of CFI's jump ship from a decent paying instructing job to the right seat of a Brasilia (and they paid for their own training!), just because it was 'turbine time', and made half the money as a FO they did as a CFI What is the long term upside for a CFI? Not everyone can become a DE. |
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Well I guess the majors need to nut up and find applicants. Maybe buy a few Kingairs and start doing training on their own dime. There are such things as employment contracts and non compete clauses you know. Could be easily done following a military type training program. Airline transportation is a national security issue I would be cool with a small subsidy to the airlines for this type of training. Who in the blue fuck can afford to pay for 1500 hours of PIC time for a < 50 <30 grand a year job. FIFY So for half the money you could get a degree in Asian Womens Studies and have a chance at a higher paying job. Frackin sad. |
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Quoted:So for half the money you could get a degree in Asian Womens Studies and have a chance at a higher paying job. Frackin sad.
And not be responsible for anyone's life. |
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If there was any justice in this world, anyone ever using the term "pilot shortage" would get an immediate karmic kick in the junk.
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What does a regional carrier pay a captain these days? Anywhere from 40-80k, generally speaking. Some more, some less. ETA. First year and top out pay. American Eagle - $1,875 / $7,560 Atlantic Southeast - $1,725 / $8,025 Colgan - $1,950 / $7,950 Comair - $1,650 / $7425 Express Jet- $1,725 / $7275 Horizon - $2,175 / $9,075 Mesa✈ - $1,444 / $7,904 Mesaba✈ - $1,950 / $7,950 Pinnacle✈ $1,950 / $7,950 Republic✈* - $1,725 / $8,925 Skywest $1,650 / $7,950 Trans States $1,540 / $5,740 I assume those are monthly salaries and regional differentials are not included. The top end is good, not great, but the entry levels are insane. 20k for an ATP ticket is embarrassing.. |
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What does a regional carrier pay a captain these days? Anywhere from 40-80k, generally speaking. Some more, some less. ETA. First year and top out pay. American Eagle - $1,875 / $7,560 Atlantic Southeast - $1,725 / $8,025 Colgan - $1,950 / $7,950 Comair - $1,650 / $7425 Express Jet- $1,725 / $7275 Horizon - $2,175 / $9,075 Mesa✈ - $1,444 / $7,904 Mesaba✈ - $1,950 / $7,950 Pinnacle✈ $1,950 / $7,950 Republic✈* - $1,725 / $8,925 Skywest $1,650 / $7,950 Trans States $1,540 / $5,740 I assume those are monthly salaries and regional differentials are not included. The top end is good, not great, but the entry levels are insane. 20k for an ATP ticket is embarrassing.. I don't know what you mean by "regional differentials." Those are the biggest regional airlines, to my knowledge. 7900 a month might not be bad in the midwest, but its not a real great salary in NY or LA. Also, there aren't a lot of guys at that top end...perhaps fewer than 15% of the pilot group. |
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And not be responsible for anyone's life. Honestly, I always felt that was the least of the issue. Two high stress work evaluations per year. Two potentially career ending medical evaluations per year. No stability in schedule. No stability in employment. The Seniority system. The likely requirement to commute. The FAA. The TSA. But, yeah. I know a person that got on with Accenture in 2006-7 with a Business degree starting in the mid 50s. She's never had to make a life-or-death decision in her professional life. |
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Quoted:But, yeah. I know a person that got on with Accenture in 2006-7 with a Business degree starting in the mid 50s. She's never had to make a life-or-death decision in her professional life.
I'm just floored the flying public isn't outraged, especially after those high profile incidents. How can they feel safe sitting in the back of a $50m jet trusting their life to a guy whose effective pay rate is $8/hr. Most people pay their baby sitter more than that. But, the absolute worst part is we (pilots) are responsible for all of it. |
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Most people pay their baby sitter more than that. But, the absolute worst part is we (pilots) are responsible for all of it. Not all. The FAA bears a huge part of the blame, as do the Unions (considering them distinct from the pilots at large, for the moment.) But yeah, its a crime. |
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Here's one way to cure a pilot shortage... http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/106265––transat-air-canada-and-westjet-denounce-sunwing-s-use-of-foreign-pilots |
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Here's one way to cure a pilot shortage... http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/106265––transat-air-canada-and-westjet-denounce-sunwing-s-use-of-foreign-pilots Your link is borked. Arfcom death by double dash http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/106265- -transat-air-canada-and-westjet-denounce-sunwing-s-use-of-foreign-pilots Copypasta link left cold, and a space is between the double dash. |
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I contemplated dropping out after my 1st year of college to pursue an aviation career. After reading the book "Squawk 7700" I'm glad I stuck it out and got the engineering degree instead. I read that book, and even though he brings up some valid points about the industry, I found the author to be a whiney bitch. He tries to paint himself as the only competent pilot at every company he tried to work for. And his constant references to "being in command of an airliner", when he was training as an FO don't paint his attitude in a very good light. I'd love to hear the other side of his stories. Oh ya, and Kit Darby can suck it. I had a FAPA membership for several years, back in the day. |
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Here's one way to cure a pilot shortage... http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/106265––transat-air-canada-and-westjet-denounce-sunwing-s-use-of-foreign-pilots Your link is borked. Arfcom death by double dash http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/106265- -transat-air-canada-and-westjet-denounce-sunwing-s-use-of-foreign-pilots Copypasta link left cold, and a space is between the double dash. Thanks, bro! I usually check them, myself. |
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What does a regional carrier pay a captain these days? Anywhere from 40-80k, generally speaking. Some more, some less. ETA. First year and top out pay. American Eagle - $1,875 / $7,560 Atlantic Southeast - $1,725 / $8,025 Colgan - $1,950 / $7,950 Comair - $1,650 / $7425 Express Jet- $1,725 / $7275 Horizon - $2,175 / $9,075 Mesa✈ - $1,444 / $7,904 Mesaba✈ - $1,950 / $7,950 Pinnacle✈ $1,950 / $7,950 Republic✈* - $1,725 / $8,925 Skywest $1,650 / $7,950 Trans States $1,540 / $5,740 I assume those are monthly salaries and regional differentials are not included. The top end is good, not great, but the entry levels are insane. 20k for an ATP ticket is embarrassing.. If by "regional differences" you mean a pay differential for being based in a high cost of living area, those don't exist in the airline industry. A pilot is paid the same, if he is based in Dallas, New York, DC or Spencer, IA. |
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What does a regional carrier pay a captain these days? Anywhere from 40-80k, generally speaking. Some more, some less. ETA. First year and top out pay. American Eagle - $1,875 / $7,560 Atlantic Southeast - $1,725 / $8,025 Colgan - $1,950 / $7,950 Comair - $1,650 / $7425 Express Jet- $1,725 / $7275 Horizon - $2,175 / $9,075 Mesa✈ - $1,444 / $7,904 Mesaba✈ - $1,950 / $7,950 Pinnacle✈ $1,950 / $7,950 Republic✈* - $1,725 / $8,925 Skywest $1,650 / $7,950 Trans States $1,540 / $5,740 I assume those are monthly salaries and regional differentials are not included. The top end is good, not great, but the entry levels are insane. 20k for an ATP ticket is embarrassing.. If by "regional differences" you mean a pay differential for being based in a high cost of living area, those don't exist in the airline industry. A pilot is paid the same, if he is based in Dallas, New York, DC or Spencer, IA. Great Lakes reference! Triple word score! |
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I completed a phone interview for a HANDS ON cargo company yesterday fly twin engine turbines....Their base pay was $11,500
Pilot shortage my ass. I think you're going to see wages in he 135 world plummet because of that new 1500hr rule coming due. Why the hell does our government go out of its way to legislate liveable wages out of existence? |
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I completed a phone interview for a HANDS ON cargo company yesterday fly twin engine turbines....Their base pay was $11,500 Pilot shortage my ass. I think you're going to see wages in he 135 world plummet because of that new 1500hr rule coming due. Why the hell does our government go out of its way to legislate liveable wages out of existence? Please tell me they pay bonuses if the shipper wants the cargo to get there. |
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Please tell me they pay bonuses if the shipper wants the cargo to get there. They tried to sell me some business about being "able to make a good wage" with per diem payments. It would probably work if you never ate anything while away from home. I'm an ATP A&P who has more self esteem than I do desire to fly a turbine so I politely declined the second interview. |
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Quoted:But, yeah. I know a person that got on with Accenture in 2006-7 with a Business degree starting in the mid 50s. She's never had to make a life-or-death decision in her professional life.
I'm just floored the flying public isn't outraged, especially after those high profile incidents. How can they feel safe sitting in the back of a $50m jet trusting their life to a guy whose effective pay rate is $8/hr. Most people pay their baby sitter more than that. But, the absolute worst part is we (pilots) are responsible for all of it. There's always someone who will be willing to fly for less than you...the 'race to the bottom', so to speak. Pay, work rules, in all categories. And unfortunately, the same people who are outraged by things like the Colgan crash will be the first to squeal if ticket prices go up 10 dollars. It can be a shitty business to be in. |
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There's always someone who will be willing to fly for less than you...the 'race to the bottom', so to speak. Pay, work rules, in all categories. And unfortunately, the same people who are outraged by things like the Colgan crash will be the first to squeal if ticket prices go up 10 dollars. It can be a shitty business to be in. I almost feel guilty for turning down the job since I am out of work with a baby on the way but I would be doing my family a HUGE disservice by taking a job like that. I've got to do whats best for them and that's not caving to the first job that comes along. When more people start toeing that line wages will go up. |
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I completed a phone interview for a HANDS ON cargo company yesterday fly twin engine turbines....Their base pay was $11,500 Pilot shortage my ass. I think you're going to see wages in he 135 world plummet because of that new 1500hr rule coming due. Why the hell does our government go out of its way to legislate liveable wages out of existence? I make more than that as a counter drone in a large retail store... working part time. |
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There's always someone who will be willing to fly for less than you...the 'race to the bottom', so to speak. Pay, work rules, in all categories. And unfortunately, the same people who are outraged by things like the Colgan crash will be the first to squeal if ticket prices go up 10 dollars. It can be a shitty business to be in. I almost feel guilty for turning down the job since I am out of work with a baby on the way but I would be doing my family a HUGE disservice by taking a job like that. I've got to do whats best for them and that's not caving to the first job that comes along. When more people start toeing that line wages will go up. IMHO, you made the right choice. Good job taking care of your family and congratulations on the incoming new member! |
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There's always someone who will be willing to fly for less than you...the 'race to the bottom', so to speak. Pay, work rules, in all categories. And unfortunately, the same people who are outraged by things like the Colgan crash will be the first to squeal if ticket prices go up 10 dollars. It can be a shitty business to be in. I almost feel guilty for turning down the job since I am out of work with a baby on the way but I would be doing my family a HUGE disservice by taking a job like that. I've got to do whats best for them and that's not caving to the first job that comes along. When more people start toeing that line wages will go up. Don't feel guilty. That's an accident looking for a place to happen. |
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And not be responsible for anyone's life. Honestly, I always felt that was the least of the issue. Two high stress work evaluations per year. Two potentially career ending medical evaluations per year. No stability in schedule. No stability in employment. The Seniority system. The likely requirement to commute. The FAA. The TSA. But, yeah. I know a person that got on with Accenture in 2006-7 with a Business degree starting in the mid 50s. She's never had to make a life-or-death decision in her professional life. Don't forget $150k for school and ratings. |
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What does a regional carrier pay a captain these days? Anywhere from 40-80k, generally speaking. Some more, some less. ETA. First year and top out pay. American Eagle - $1,875 / $7,560 Atlantic Southeast - $1,725 / $8,025 Colgan - $1,950 / $7,950 Comair - $1,650 / $7425 Express Jet- $1,725 / $7275 Horizon - $2,175 / $9,075 Mesa✈ - $1,444 / $7,904 Mesaba✈ - $1,950 / $7,950 Pinnacle✈ $1,950 / $7,950 Republic✈* - $1,725 / $8,925 Skywest $1,650 / $7,950 Trans States $1,540 / $5,740 Pretty sad. My wife use to fly regionals. She quit flying regionals, went thru A&P school. She now makes more money as an A&P. |
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Pretty sad. My wife use to fly regionals. She quit flying regionals, went thru A&P school. She now makes more money as an A&P. While I appreciate the value of a good mechanic as much as anyone, that's just stupid. I know the answer: Everybody wants to wear sunglasses and go zoom, zoom, zoom. Nobody wants to wear eye protection and go ratchet, ratchet, ratchet. It's still stupid. |
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I know the answer: Everybody wants to wear sunglasses and go zoom, zoom, zoom. Nobody wants to wear eye protection and go ratchet, ratchet, ratchet. Actually I get more satisfaction out of wrenching than I do flying. For me, flying has always come naturally but being a mechanic is mentally taxing because of all the complexities of the systems. My problem is that when I apply to places as a mech they always ask if I'll be jumping ship as soon as the next flying gig comes along. In hindsight I probably should have waited on my ATP until I was getting a type rating. One of these days I'll find a place that lets me be both a pilot and a mechanic. |
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I know the answer: Everybody wants to wear sunglasses and go zoom, zoom, zoom. Nobody wants to wear eye protection and go ratchet, ratchet, ratchet. Actually I get more satisfaction out of wrenching than I do flying. For me, flying has always come naturally but being a mechanic is mentally taxing because of all the complexities of the systems. My problem is that when I apply to places as a mech they always ask if I'll be jumping ship as soon as the next flying gig comes along. In hindsight I probably should have waited on my ATP until I was getting a type rating. One of these days I'll find a place that lets me be both a pilot and a mechanic. To me, the most enjoyable part of aviation became the successful working of complex maintenance problems with maintainers I trusted. |
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I know the answer: Everybody wants to wear sunglasses and go zoom, zoom, zoom. Nobody wants to wear eye protection and go ratchet, ratchet, ratchet. Actually I get more satisfaction out of wrenching than I do flying. For me, flying has always come naturally but being a mechanic is mentally taxing because of all the complexities of the systems. My problem is that when I apply to places as a mech they always ask if I'll be jumping ship as soon as the next flying gig comes along. In hindsight I probably should have waited on my ATP until I was getting a type rating. One of these days I'll find a place that lets me be both a pilot and a mechanic. flying in alaska would probably fit the bill. how is your life insurance? |
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I know the answer: Everybody wants to wear sunglasses and go zoom, zoom, zoom. Nobody wants to wear eye protection and go ratchet, ratchet, ratchet. Actually I get more satisfaction out of wrenching than I do flying. For me, flying has always come naturally but being a mechanic is mentally taxing because of all the complexities of the systems. My problem is that when I apply to places as a mech they always ask if I'll be jumping ship as soon as the next flying gig comes along. In hindsight I probably should have waited on my ATP until I was getting a type rating. One of these days I'll find a place that lets me be both a pilot and a mechanic. flying in alaska would probably fit the bill. how is your life insurance? I flew out of Skagway (See avatar) for 7 months, thought I was a good pilot before I got there. My life insurance policy became improved stick and rudder skills. None of the outfits in Juneau would let me be "both" as much as I wanted to be. |
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I know the answer: Everybody wants to wear sunglasses and go zoom, zoom, zoom. Nobody wants to wear eye protection and go ratchet, ratchet, ratchet. Actually I get more satisfaction out of wrenching than I do flying. For me, flying has always come naturally but being a mechanic is mentally taxing because of all the complexities of the systems. My problem is that when I apply to places as a mech they always ask if I'll be jumping ship as soon as the next flying gig comes along. In hindsight I probably should have waited on my ATP until I was getting a type rating. One of these days I'll find a place that lets me be both a pilot and a mechanic. flying in alaska would probably fit the bill. how is your life insurance? I flew out of Skagway (See avatar) for 7 months, thought I was a good pilot before I got there. My life insurance policy became improved stick and rudder skills. None of the outfits in Juneau would let me be "both" as much as I wanted to be. Only in aviation is a credential like an A&P considered a black mark. When you think of the implications of that, you shouldn't get on an airplane. |
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Pretty sad. My wife use to fly regionals. She quit flying regionals, went thru A&P school. She now makes more money as an A&P. While I appreciate the value of a good mechanic as much as anyone, that's just stupid. I know the answer: Everybody wants to wear sunglasses and go zoom, zoom, zoom. Nobody wants to wear eye protection and go ratchet, ratchet, ratchet. It's still stupid. To be honest about it, I work in aviation myself. I only have an Airframe, and a repairman for welding. I have done some power plant work, but not enough to get a power plant. I mostly do sheetmetal structures work and welding exotic metals like inconel , titanium, stainless, etc. I make more than she than she does, even though her resume looks ten times better, and she has more ratings. |
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I know the answer: Everybody wants to wear sunglasses and go zoom, zoom, zoom. Nobody wants to wear eye protection and go ratchet, ratchet, ratchet. Actually I get more satisfaction out of wrenching than I do flying. For me, flying has always come naturally but being a mechanic is mentally taxing because of all the complexities of the systems. My problem is that when I apply to places as a mech they always ask if I'll be jumping ship as soon as the next flying gig comes along. In hindsight I probably should have waited on my ATP until I was getting a type rating. One of these days I'll find a place that lets me be both a pilot and a mechanic. flying in alaska would probably fit the bill. how is your life insurance? I flew out of Skagway (See avatar) for 7 months, thought I was a good pilot before I got there. My life insurance policy became improved stick and rudder skills. None of the outfits in Juneau would let me be "both" as much as I wanted to be. Only in aviation is a credential like an A&P considered a black mark. When you think of the implications of that, you shouldn't get on an airplane. A pilot that knows mx and isn't afraid to get dirty is a big plus in most small corporate operations. |
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