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Posted: 10/13/2020 9:51:34 AM EDT
This is a continuation of this thread: Woodworkers: Need Help. CNC Router?
**Might be long, I’m documenting my entire adventure here.** Skip past the recap if you followed the other thread. -RECAP- So… for those not following the other thread, I’ve gone from only owning a couple of tools (cheap drill press, screw drivers, sander, Dremel, Craftsman miter saw) for when I built my own suppressor and my son’s pinewood derby car 11-12 years ago, I’ve decided to get into woodworking. I’ve literally never so much as screwed wood together and done something with it, and I spent the weekend of Oct 9th and built a couch. No clue what got into me, but I saw a “shop couch” on YouTube and was determined to make one for my garage cigar lounge. I got ahold of a 3rd row seat from a Yukon Denali and went to Lowe’s and started buying wood. Sunday afternoon I had a couch. I made a ton of mistakes but learned an amazing amount – like cutting wood straight helps. -END OF RECAP- OK, my adventure into CNC Routing has begun - I just bought a Shapeoko 3 XXL! Just got an email it shipped. Decided to also get everything I need to be successful - the precision collets, end mill starter pack, T- track and clamps, 100 threaded inserts to make a new wasteboard, a BitZero, and a BitSetter. Total with tax was $2819. Now it’s off to making the workbench before it arrives. I’m leaving a little room because I think I want to add an enclosure for a little soundproofing. I have an old Acer touchscreen tablet I’m going to integrate into the cabinet somehow. Well, I guess I’ll need a real saw, so I bought one last night. I have very little room, so I got a compact table saw and a few other cheap tools/accessories I didn’t own (square’s, clamps, countersink bits, work light, air nailer/stapler, etc.). I still need some kind of dust collection system, if someone can offer suggestion. I’m going to need an electrician to come in and put a dedicate outlet or two in the garage at some point in the next week or so. Alright, off to get some wood to start building this table! |
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Tagged!
I don't know if you do videos, but this would be a great opportunity to share the experience and perhaps encourage others to become Lowcash too I think CNC is an awesome technology and am very interested in perhaps going down this road at some point. Be sure to share any gotchas you run into with setup, learning curve, etc! |
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I have a few pallets but they are so full of nails I'm not sure I'm going to use them for anything. Saw blades cost more than wood
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Some pallets are treated with compounds you do not want to breathe
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Quoted: Ok, so here is my Saturday recap. I started by building a base for the MDF. And I actually cut it straight! https://i.ibb.co/hfCBG96/a.jpg Added legs & flipped it over. I used wood glue and brad nails to hold it in place, then countersunk screws. I used a lot. Not sure why. https://i.ibb.co/f8vxP4t/d.jpg That deserved a smoke while the glue sets. https://i.ibb.co/6JFSvK3/c.jpg Flipped it back over and added a 1 1/4" x 6" board as the center stabilizer. The casters I ordered were HUGE, so I had to improvise and make leg supports. https://i.ibb.co/HhBN0WD/b.jpg I guess it turned out ok. The "nubs" at the casters are sticking out for a reason - I'm thinking of adding something later. I sanded everything except the MDF with 80 grit then 220. I rounded all the edges, plus the bottom & legs, in case I snag something. I measured as I went, cut as I went, and generally created it all on the fly. For only the second thing I've ever created, I'm happy with how it turned out. https://i.ibb.co/YyKpKnz/e.jpg Had to finish off the night with an Oliva - tomorrow I start building the Shapeoko! https://i.ibb.co/cTfts2r/f.jpg View Quote Triangulate your table legs or add some gusseting around corners to make it even more rigid. On some rapid moves my table shakes a bit for my mill and I need to bolt in at least two diagonals to lock it down better. But then Fusion 360 did away with rapid moves in Gcode exports for personal use free accounts. But you will be moving pretty quickly with some of your cuts if you wind up doing aluminum with 1/8 to 1/4 O-flute end mills. I would also take the casters off to put on the ends of your vertical posts and move your bottom 2x4s so they bolt through on the face of the boards. You are are not getting much actual rigidity/strength with the orientation of those bottom boards. |
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Guys - sorry for the length, the video is about 15 mins. I wanted to capture all the "gotcha's" that came with my build.
If you won't ever build a Shapeoko, you can skip this and wait for the pics/video later this week of it in operation (hopefully). Shapeoko 3 XXL Build |
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Looking forward to see how things go. Thinking about some projects myself |
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I found your narration and photos to be interesting - I need to get my smaller, older, ShapeOKO back into service 'soon' - watching your efforts is helping to motivate me...
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Ok - need some help guys!
Router not cutting material I tried to make a simple sign and the router just hovers over the material cutting the pattern in air. I've used both a manual zero and the BitZero, both having identical results. I'm thinking it's my code? Here is my Carbide Create file and Gcode file if anyone has any ideas. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3ga71eI8rqVF8q-ai6J2NCSTdI9-0_-/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YfY_J0JUlcXUj7-nq3-Cf3e6UDHeQ_Lj/view?usp=sharing Tried changing the material thickness, etc, etc. I've changed so many parameters I'm sure I've passed over the correct option at this point. |
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Check your work coordinate system for start point.
I use Fusion 360 so no idea how the carbide system goes about generating code. There is likely a setting you are missing from your clearance height and your work surface. |
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Quoted: Check your work coordinate system for start point. I use Fusion 360 so no idea how the carbide system goes about generating code. There is likely a setting you are missing from your clearance height and your work surface. View Quote That was it, thanks! I used a different piece of wood that I originally measured. They were .10" difference in thickness, and that was just enough to cause the issue. |
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Still not a fan of the work bench layout.
Lot of strength and rigidity loss in how joints and orientation of 2x4s are layed out. |
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Quoted: So you've mentioned. It's been used several times and the Shapeoko doesn't shake whatsoever. View Quote It isnt just that but as you pile on the weight, like adding the enclosure, there will be stressed fasteners and joints where it will begin to overly rely on the fastener. If you should consider redoing the table look into 4x4s for your vertical posts and then do a half lap or crosslap with the 2x4s bolted through. Weight will transfer through into the 2x4s better when rotated 90deg on axis and increases surface area with the lap joints into the 4x4s and down to the casters better. I am not trying to argue or be insulting. Just something to consider as you add weight to the table. I wont mention it again and dont mean to set the thread off track. On the note of your CNC. Have you tested it for tram yet to see how true your spindle is for 90deg? Stupid Simple Tools has a really nice dual dual indicator gauge for testing tram. I am getting ready for my next aluminum project making custom badges for my 66 Mustang. My previous project showed how far out I was from being true vertical. I finally shimmed my router head so I am out only .005 inch across 6 inches on my Y axis and nearly perfectly level on my X axis. Spoil board results were much smoother which will hopefully translate into better cuts and longer tool life. Also, get yourself a set of feeler gauges. Can be helpful when going to materials other than wood. Can set your tool to be .001 inch off the work surface. Also a dial indicator could be helpful for certain setups if you start using a vice. Fixturing is one of the biggest things I am trying to figure out for moving forward. Really want to figure out a way to use a vice that doesnt eat up a ton of my Z axis useable space. Some of my fixturing came from 3D printing custom parts for holding my carbon fiber off the Tplate. Allowed me to slide in 200x300mm plates without having to reset my zero or WCS because all my plates oriented off the same fixed point in space. I often prototype with the 3D printer then move over to the carbon fiber or aluminum piece. |
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Quoted: It isnt just that but as you pile on the weight, like adding the enclosure, there will be stressed fasteners and joints where it will begin to overly rely on the fastener. If you should consider redoing the table look into 4x4s for your vertical posts and then do a half lap or crosslap with the 2x4s bolted through. Weight will transfer through into the 2x4s better when rotated 90deg on axis and increases surface area with the lap joints into the 4x4s and down to the casters better. I am not trying to argue or be insulting. Just something to consider as you add weight to the table. I wont mention it again and dont mean to set the thread off track. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: It isnt just that but as you pile on the weight, like adding the enclosure, there will be stressed fasteners and joints where it will begin to overly rely on the fastener. If you should consider redoing the table look into 4x4s for your vertical posts and then do a half lap or crosslap with the 2x4s bolted through. Weight will transfer through into the 2x4s better when rotated 90deg on axis and increases surface area with the lap joints into the 4x4s and down to the casters better. I am not trying to argue or be insulting. Just something to consider as you add weight to the table. I wont mention it again and dont mean to set the thread off track. Fair enough, and valid points, but it's moot now since it's built. However, I wish I would have made it 6" bigger all around, and made the enclosure differently, so I will take your suggestions when the time comes to build a new system. Quoted: On the note of your CNC. Have you tested it for tram yet to see how true your spindle is for 90deg? Stupid Simple Tools has a really nice dual dual indicator gauge for testing tram. Only done the "poor mans way" that Winston Moy showed in his video, but I'm getting the "stupid mans result". But at $80, I think that indicator gauge you referenced is a steal. Thanks. |
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Quoted: Fair enough, and valid points, but it's moot now since it's built. However, I wish I would have made it 6" bigger all around, and made the enclosure differently, so I will take your suggestions when the time comes to build a new system. Only done the "poor mans way" that Winston Moy showed in his video, but I'm getting the "stupid mans result". But at $80, I think that indicator gauge you referenced is a steal. Thanks. View Quote Dont make my mistake with the tram tool. I accidently hit my return to home or gross Z axis jog while it was chucked into the router. It would have been fine had my tool been parallel to X axis. But it wasnt. It was rotated 90 degrees. So as it withdrew the router head on the Z axis it crashed my literally minutes old tool into the bottom of the Router Z axis plate. Bent the damn tool. So I had to order a new holder for the dial indicators and develop a very methodical way of not fucking up my tool again. Currently looking into some mod-vices from Saunders machine works but my Tslot plate would likely need to be replaced to return some functionality/drop my height so I have room to start using vices. As for laying out your boards and such. I will be at a similar point soon with an epoxy enlay serving tray or cutting board I want to do. I figure if I use 1/2 x 2 inch strips I am gonna set up a jig on my drill press to drill for a centered dowl on each end. Once boards are ready for glue up I will run the dowl down through and then do a blind cap on the ends so you never see the dowl. Will get glued and clamped to be let to sit for a few days. Any uneveness will see my CNC used with the spoil board surfacing bit to mill the thing flat with a surfacing bit just like I would do with my spoil board. Once that is leveled on both sides I will worry about fixturing for the design layout/cutting as well as hopefully doing a final route on the outter profile to bring it to the size I want accounting for the dowels not getting exposed. |
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Quoted: When you get to where you think you are ready to try aluminum hit me up. I can help with speeds/feeds that have been working for me with everything from .250in o-flute to 1/8in ball nose to tiny little 1/32 end mills. Fusion 360 and remaining stock maching ops are the way I got this guy finished today. https://i.imgur.com/08sLY9T.jpg View Quote |
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Quoted: What material thicknesses, alloys, and machine are you using? View Quote 6061 aluminum. Have done up to 1/2 inch aluminum for some of my drone parts. I have a 4 inch Z height with 19 inches on X/Y so that gives me some fair room to work. Router mills are nit the most rigid so usually you are using a fraction of the mill diameter as your depth of cut. But wingle flute mills let you take advantage of 16-20k rpm and crank the feed rate way up. The machine is a Millright Mega V. I got it for a song because I got in on the kickstarter for it sept of last year. Saved about 500 off what it retails for. It has some things I dont like about it but some things I do. Mainly my machine is a downsized version of their 35x35 that is meant to also have a plasma torch head for doing plasma cutting over a water table. The way my machine has everything hung from above it made it decent for submerged cutting of carbon fiber which was my primary intent for this machine. Have cut a fair amount of carbon fiber(6mm sheets) with a burr bit and thanks to it being under water it causes no dust. My table empties into an aquarium under the table where I run the water through filtration to capture the debris in an aquarium polishing pad filter. When I am done I toss the filter in a ziplock and it's all done/cleaned up. The initital offering of my mill came with some questionable fasteners. Hopefully they upgraded to grade 8 or above allen fasteners rather than the relatively shit phillips screws that came with my kit. My build is a rack and pinion arrangement which does a fair job but the lead screw and backlash stuff out there, some shapeoko models I believe, are better options I feel. |
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Quoted: When you get to where you think you are ready to try aluminum hit me up. View Quote Will do - thanks, that's awesome! I want to do a reverse logo brass carving for burning my logo into the back of projects. No idea where to get the brass, what bit to use, etc. I saw Winston did a video, but I don't recall he spoke on those details. |
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I am sitting here thinking about milling new end plates for my gantry to raise it about 6 inches.
If I do that I could then engrave some custom logos for the valve covers on my 331 stroker motor. |
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You really should start looking into Fusion 360 now so you can start playing with how to make drawings and 3D models.
I get you are working/learning one program for carving which is a lot. When you get tired of that taking a break to play in Fusion360 could be a bit of a break. It is gonna take 6-9 months before you start to orient with that software and be fairly comfortable(off axis planes, splitting models, importing drawings/svgs, making an SVG). That will help for when you get closer to wanting to do something like a working part you will have fewer things to sort out with the manufacturing portal. Even with it a bit neutered feature wise(biggest issue is rapid moves have been put behind a paywall), from what it was at 3 months ago, it is still hugely powerful. Also hugely useful if you should ever get a 3D printer. |
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Yeah, you're both right. If I'm going to spend this much time on something I should go with a much more robust design tool.
I had ruled out VCarve Desktop because those jerks limit it to 24" x 24". If you want larger I need VCarve Pro and the price goes from $349 to $699. That is ridiculous for larger sizes, regardless of other features. Fusion 360 looks free for basic features. I can't imagine I'll need any of those advanced features any time soon. |
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I'm still working on how to make "better" cuts that show less toolmarks. I know there are ways, because I've seen the end results, but not sure where/how to start figuring it out.
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Quoted: Yeah, you're both right. If I'm going to spend this much time on something I should go with a much more robust design tool. I had ruled out VCarve Desktop because those jerks limit it to 24" x 24". If you want larger I need VCarve Pro and the price goes from $349 to $699. That is ridiculous for larger sizes, regardless of other features. Fusion 360 looks free for basic features. I can't imagine I'll need any of those advanced features any time soon. View Quote One thing nice about the VCarve stuff is that you can start off with the desktop version to get your feet wet, and if you need to move up to larger size routing later, you just pay the difference in price between Desktop and Pro... they credit you for the full price of the Desktop version, in other words. But yeah, the stuff ain't cheap - but it's good. I think they do have a free trial version you can download to play with it a little if you're so inclined. Another drawback is that VCarve doesn't really include 3D *design* tools... if you plan on creating 3D models from scratch, that means moving up to Aspire, which is in a whole different price league (~$1800, if I remember correctly). Just depends on what you're gonna do with it in the long run. I've been cranking out stuff on my homebrew CNC router for 5+ years now, and have never had a need to move up to VCarve Pro or Aspire... don't do big signs or anything, and I'm not enough of an artist to do much of my own 3D modeling. I just stick mainly with downloaded .stl's and a few models purchased from Design & Make. There's still a lot you can do within those limits! |
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Quoted: I'm still working on how to make "better" cuts that show less toolmarks. I know there are ways, because I've seen the end results, but not sure where/how to start figuring it out. View Quote One way to do it is to reduce the "stepover" in the bit setup... basically how much one run overlaps the next as the bit is moving back and forth. Less stepover looks better, but increases routing time... sometimes pretty significantly. |
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Quoted: I'm still working on how to make "better" cuts that show less toolmarks. I know there are ways, because I've seen the end results, but not sure where/how to start figuring it out. View Quote Depth of cut/step over/finishing pass. V-carve may be more oriented towards V-shaped bits and doing single cuts on a line or profile. The only option may be doing multiple depths/even step diwns so it isnt all done in one deep single cut. |
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Quoted: One way to do it is to reduce the "stepover" in the bit setup... basically how much one run overlaps the next as the bit is moving back and forth. Less stepover looks better, but increases routing time... sometimes pretty significantly. View Quote Ok, that makes sense. Quoted: Depth of cut/step over/finishing pass. V-carve may be more oriented towards V-shaped bits and doing single cuts on a line or profile. The only option may be doing multiple depths/even step diwns so it isnt all done in one deep single cut. View Quote I hear about finishing passes a lot - no idea what that is or means. People on YouTube tend to toss that around like everyone know what that means. Can you explain? |
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Thanks for the detailed reply, I appreciate it.
I'm going to try some cuts and see if I can play with the stepovers and change these defaults in Carbide Create. One of the defaults I saw in there once was a 75in feed rate and a 15in plunge rate when I changed tools. I'd still be cutting. Like, WTF? If someone didn't know better, and I barely do, you'd run these defaults and have a 6 hour cut on a 12x12 sign that said "Hello". |
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