User Panel
Posted: 2/23/2007 11:32:39 AM EDT
This discussion stems from another thread:
My last comment:
Alright Tan. Put your money where your mouth is. Edit: For everyone else, is it god or biology? |
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Damn. You are going to have to wait until I get off work to read that book. Edit: I havent read it but I noticed it was philosophical. Philosophical arguments mean absolutly jack nothing when it comes to science and facts. FWIW Philosophy can never explain scientific observations. Conciousness is a scientific observation and can be observed by detecting the interaction between cells as I already stated. i dont know if your article adresses my statements or not. Just putting it out there. |
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Once you have digested that: plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/ |
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I didnt see any "physical explanation" on the "table of contents" How can you try and explain conciousness with out adressing the PHYSICAL characteristics that it has????? In fact. It seems philosophy doesnt take any stand on it what so ever. Which leads me to ask. What do you think the soul is???? |
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Yes, it adressed it, and it raises objections to the notion of pure materialism. |
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Thats the thing......this IS a physical world. There is no evidence for anything else to control conciousness other then the physical evidence we already have. |
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Consciousness, or "awareness of being" occurred in humans thousands of years ago. Such awareness is one of the primary factors that separates us from the lower animals. There's certainly nothing metaphysical about consciousness.
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"awareness of being" is not the definition we are talking about. Many animals have a conciousness. We are not seperated from them. Think about dogs dreaming and such, then you will understand. Alos, you didnt mention the fact that brain function can be measured and is a function of the conscious stae you are in. Conciousness is nothing but metaphysical. |
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Well, that is your opinion, however it is one you cannot prove.
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Just because a electroencephalogram cannot measure a soul, or consciousness, does not mean they do not exist. It only means that material machines cannot measure immaterial realities. But we can use human reason, as was done in the links provided, to challenge, on legitimate grounds, the notion that the inability to take a machine, plug it into a wall, and measure the human soul, God, or consciousness, is evidence that only material reality exists.
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Thats the thing. I am arguing that we cant take a machine and "measure" the human soul because it doesnt exist. As for consciousness, like I stated, we CAN measure it!!!! It is very much physical. I did read the part of the link above that touched on metaphysical aspects. First, the link is incorrect in its definitions because to call something a "theory" menas that you have some facts to support it. They have NO facts supporting that consciousness is anything other than physical, thus it should not be classified as a theory. All they do is state random "theories" and do not elaborate on them. They state NO facts to support them. Definition of a theory: "In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation." Some questions: Why can consciousness be controled by medication/drugs if it is not physical? When enough alcohol stops the brains cells from comunicating we lose consciousness. Why? Why, when certain areas of the brain are damaged do the victums of said trauma sometimes experience varying forms of consciousness? |
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Thats the thing. I am arguing that we cant take a machine and "measure" the human soul because it doesnt exist. But you are also basing your belief that it does not exist on the fact that it cannot be measured, which simply makes it a tautology. As for consciousness, like I stated, we CAN measure it!!!! It is very much physical. There is a reason that the idea of consciousness being material is only considered a theory. I did read the part of the link above that touched on metaphysical aspects. First, the link is incorrect in its definitions because to call something a "theory" menas that you have some facts to support it. They have NO facts supporting that consciousness is anything other than physical, thus it should not be classified as a theory. All they do is state random "theories" and do not elaborate on them. They state NO facts to support them. They present the facts of the flaws of materialism as evidence that the theory of materialism is itself a flawed theory. Definition of a theory: "In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation." Here are some more legitimate definitions: 1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. 2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. 3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory. 4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory. 5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles. 6. contemplation or speculation. 7. guess or conjecture. Some questions: Why can consciousness be controled by medication/drugs if it is not physical? When enough alcohol stops the brains cells from comunicating we lose consciousness. Why? For the same reason that if you take enough of those drugs, you will also lose the connection between the soul and the body, even though the soul itself is immaterial. Why, when certain areas of the brain are damaged do the victums of said trauma sometimes experience varying forms of consciousness? Because while consciousness is a power/characteristic of the human soul (which has 3 divisions of powers: vegetative, sensitive, and cognitive www.newadvent.org/summa/1078.htm) another characteristic is union with the body. How this union is achieved, how in fact do immaterial and material realites affect each other, is still an ongoing discussion, but an intensely interesting one.
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Personally, I don't see why it can't be both. Why would God create the universe and all it's laws unless he intended to use them to suit His purposes? People can argue all they want, but in my view, God created everything, including science and biology and the fact that we are slowly learning a little (and I do mean a _little_) about how some of it works certainly does not make me question the existence of God or of his ability to grant an afterlife to the soul. - Now, I do believe that through time there have been countless individuals and groups (the catholic church in the middle ages for instance) who have taken it on themselves to stifle anything that might put their interpretation of the Bible and the nature of things into question, but I tend to think that that phenomenon is due to the same sort of corruption that was pointed out by Martin Luther. The church was making a lot of money on things as they were, and certain of their leaders didn't want people questioning anything that might hurt their pocket books. - But that is human greed and human failings. To me, none of that makes me question whether God and/or the soul exist. It just makes me less than trusting of people who simply claim to be speaking for God and/or people who try to tell me that God and science can't and don't mix. Just my .02. |
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Total crap! What we are talking about is awareness of being. We are separated (spelled correctly, I might add) from the lower animals. |
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The ONLY way you and I are separated from the lower animals is because of our intelligence! Intelligence gives us the ability to form culture, which in turn leads to things like religon and the soul. We are intelligent enough to "make these things up" -no offense intended, just my wording. We ARE animals. We have DNA, proteins, cells, and bacteria living inside us like all other animals. |
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Science cant disprove/measure something that doesnt exist.
Consciousness itself is NOT a theory. We know it exists. It IS a (scientific) theory in that we are unsure where it comes from. However, we do know it is biological. Link
Ill give you this one, there are many deffinitions of "theory". I was speaking in the form of a scientific theory. My problem with their wording is that to discredit a scientific theory like they are doing (a soul is biological), they have to obey scientific laws. They are not, and thus they are not being scientific.
How can immaterial be connected to material. If, in fact you think there is a soul connected to the body. It MUST obey the scientific law and be made of some sort of matter. We could then test it, But, we cant and there is no evidence for a soul.
Same as above. There is no proof for a "soul". I believe it is nothing but a figment of "mans" imagination and their desire to not be alone. They "must" have something to carry on when they die. |
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Science cant disprove/measure something that doesnt exist. Nor can it prove/measure everything that does. Consciousness itself is NOT a theory. But what it is, is a theory. we do know it is biological. No we don't. That is also a theory. All that we know is that there is a relation that we do not understand between the material and the immaterial, between the body and the soul, between the brain and consciousness. But the body is not the soul, and the brain is not counsciousness. And neither you, nor science, can prove otherwise. Ill give you this one, there are many deffinitions of "theory". I was speaking in the form of a scientific theory. My problem with their wording is that to discredit a scientific theory like they are doing (a soul is biological), they have to obey scientific laws. They are not, and thus they are not being scientific. There is also more than one defintion of science. You simply choose to again use a materialistic definition. How can immaterial be connected to material. If, in fact you think there is a soul connected to the body. It MUST obey the scientific law and be made of some sort of matter. No, it mustn't. Not even matter always obeys "scientific law" (whatever that means.). Same as above. There is no proof for a "soul". Except for consciousness, but you simply do not except that. There is also the ontological proofs of immaterial reality, but you simply choose not to believe them as well. I believe it is nothing but a figment of "mans" imagination and their desire to not be alone. They "must" have something to carry on when they die. That is your scientifically unproven belief, and you're certainly welcome to it.
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No, but the idea of a soul violates specific scientific laws. No, it doesn't. And you can name one that it does and you know that. Which begs the question as to why you are posting this. Even though we cant "prove" it doesnt exist, we know it CANT exist. At least in the way you describe it (immaterial). Immaterial is the only way in can exist. Its the best model.....its more then you have Actually, it is materialism that lives in a confined box. You must reduce your philosophy to simple marxist materialistic atheism. What could be more boring than that? Again, I use materialistic because it is WHAT THE ENTIRE WORLD IS. THIS IS A PHYSICAL WORLD. Philosophy can not prove otherwise. Sure it can, you just have chosen to never study the matter. Science makes advancements everyday based on this "fact" that this is a physical world No, it simply makes advances in the physical world, which is all it can do, as you have already admitted. LOL.....matter sure does. You clearly have no scientific background. Alright, was/is there ever a time when the physical "laws of science" did/do not control material reality? Careful, if you say no it would mean your are a complete moronic idiot, and we would not want that. And since you brought it up, what exactly is your "scientific background"?
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What law doesnt it violate?
Immaterial is the only way it can exist because that is all that exists. Since immaterial is the only way it can exist why is it that we have never discovered this "soul"?
To me, this statement means you understand what I am saying and almost agree with it, but it is more "fun" to think this physical world is not the only thing.
Enlighten me. What is the proof
There is no other world, except the physical world.
As I stated before, subatomic particles are not constrained to the "physical laws", well sort of. They are constrained to their own physical laws. Im sure you could search the internet for other things. I have seen anti-evolution sites that claim evolution violates it, but when you look at the site and you look at the reason they say this they are very wrong. Why dont you go ahead and show me a scientific paper or peer reviewed paper that violates scientific law in their research......
I have my degree in Chemistry......how about you. |
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What law doesnt it violate? I'll take this as a confession that you cannot name one. Immaterial is the only way it can exist because that is all that exists. No, what exists is the material and the immaterial. Since immaterial is the only way it can exist why is it that we have never discovered this "soul"? Because it is immaterial. To me, this statement means you understand what I am saying and almost agree with it, but it is more "fun" to think this physical world is not the only thing. "Fun" has precious little to do with science. It is however infinitely more interesting. Enlighten me. What is the proof I already pointed you in the right ontological direction. There is no other world, except the physical world. Here are two things regarding this statement you keep making: 1. You can't know that, and you know it. 2. You can't prove that, and you know it. As I stated before, subatomic particles are not constrained to the "physical laws", well sort of. They are constrained to their own physical laws. You did not answer the question. Yes, or no?
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. Conservation of energy, mass....etc. No, it does not violate either of those. Try again. Prove the immaterial world exists....you cant Nor can you prove, or even state with confidence, that it does not exist. No, I want PROOF, scientific proof. Which only highlights the fact that you have no idea what it is you are even talking about. Ok, then prove me wrong. No need to prove someone wrong who has not been able to provide any evidence that they are right. OK, the scientific laws are followed. No, they are not always followed, and never have been, which rather makes your entire argument that everything must obey the "scientific laws" come completely unraveled. It also gives evidence that you really don't know that much about science to begin with if you are not aware of this 'scientific truth'.
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Tan, I don't know why you're bothering to argue with him. There's nothing you can do or say to get some atheists to consider the possibility of the unknowable or in many cases, the knowable, but currently unknown. They're too closed minded for that. I think you'd do better spending time with fence sitters who are open to various possibilities instead of arguing with a rock. But that's just me.
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So your argument for the souls existance is that it cannot be proven nonexistant? |
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guy's please keep in mind this is considered a techniccal forum and is for religious discussions.
if you have nothing to add other than crap stirring comments i highly advise you to stop posting in this forum. thanks mike |
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Quoted: . Conservation of energy, mass....etc. No, it does not violate either of those. Try again. I forgot, it doesnt exist so it is not subject to physical laws. Yet, somehow it exists. Prove the immaterial world exists....you cant Nor can you prove, or even state with confidence, that it does not exist. So your default setting is that it exists because you cant prove it doesnt? No, I want PROOF, scientific proof. Which only highlights the fact that you have no idea what it is you are even talking about. Why??? Ok, then prove me wrong. No need to prove someone wrong who has not been able to provide any evidence that they are right. and you have.....not one time have you sited any facts. OK, the scientific laws are followed. No, they are not always followed, and never have been, which rather makes your entire argument that everything must obey the "scientific laws" come completely unraveled. It also gives evidence that you really don't know that much about science to begin with if you are not aware of this 'scientific truth'. Instead of just saying that I am wrong and leaving it at that. Why dont you go ahead and give me an example. |
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I forgot, it doesnt exist so it is not subject to physical laws. Yet, somehow it exists. You have never once explained how immaterial reality need be subject to the physical laws of material reality. What you have done is demonstrate that you are completely clueless because you did not even know that the laws of physics did not, and do not, even govern all of material reality. The FACT that you don't know this scientific truth, the FACT that you were so completely wrong, says everything about how little your really know. |
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