OK, I'm going to throw something at you guys for your consideration. I don't really expect you to accept it but I would like you to consider it. I'd appreciate it if you'd comment only after reading this  . . . .

Jude 9 says:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

When did this happen? Where is it recorded in the scriptures? Isn't the closest parallel in Mat 4:1-11 when Jesus is contending with the Devil about old testament scripture (the body of Moses)? And what did Jesus do?  Did he bring a railing accusation? No, he responded with scriptures. In other words, the LORD rebuked the devil.

Mat 4: 1 ¶ Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.


Wait, there's more:

Rev12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This says the war in heaven was fought by Michael against the Devil? Who judged Lucifer? Wasn't it Jesus? ("Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;")
And doesn't it say that salvation comes from the power of his Christ? Who is the Christ but Jesus? And doesn't it say that they overcame the Devil with the blood of the Lamb? And who is the lamb but Jesus?

Wait, wait, there's more still:


Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Jesus is called "chief" in Eph 2:20 ("20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"). Also, isn't Jesus called a prince in Ac 3:15 ( And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead . . . ) and in Ac 5:31 (Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins)?


But wait, wait. I'm not done. Look what it says about Michael in Daniel 12:

1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


So, if Jesus is Michael then he should fulfill some of this stuff said of Michael. Maybe he does:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up . . . "
(Luke 4: 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.) OK, that one is kind of weak. But John did say that Jesus standeth among them (Joh 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;)

"the great prince . . . "
(Jesus was the son of a king (God) and was called the prince of peace and the prince of life and simply a prince -- see above)

"which standeth for the children of thy people  . . . "
( in Mat 1:21 it says that Jesus will "save his people from their sins." -- also Ac 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)" )

"and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:  . . . "
(sounds a lot like the description of the coming of Christ in Mat 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.)

"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, . . . "
(see  Rom 11:26 -- "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer . . . :" and also Luke 4: 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me  . . . to preach deliverance to the captives  . . . ")

" every one that shall be found written in the book. . . . "
( This comes up in Rev 3: 5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Also see Luke 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.")

2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, . . . "
(Isn't this what is being described in Mat 27:52 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,")

"some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
(Sounds a lot like  Joh 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.")

Also, Dan 12:4 tells Daniel to seal the book —  "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."[/i

Wasn't it Christ who opened the book in Revelation 5?

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 ¶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Sure seems like there's a lot of dots that connect to show that Jesus was Michael. Even Paul seems to compare Jesus to an angel: "Ga 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus."

CONTEXT

Quoted: CONTEXT

Wow! A speed reader. Thanks for your thoughtful consideration . . .

Lots of twisted conjecture. For example, receiving someone as you would receive an angel doesn't turn you into one. Jesus cannot be an angel, because angels are created beings. Jesus did the creating, and God and Jesus direct the angels as they see fit.

I see what you're trying to say, but IMHO it's completely without merit.

Bladeswitcher,

Good work.

I have never heard of this idea before. The evidence you show is compelling.

Daniel 10:21 is amazing... I always assumed Jesus was the only prince.

MOST interesting!

I believe Adventists hold this view.

Quoted: Lots of twisted conjecture. For example, receiving someone as you would receive an angel doesn't turn you into one. Jesus cannot be an angel, because angels are created beings. Jesus did the creating, and God and Jesus direct the angels as they see fit. I see what you're trying to say, but IMHO it's completely without merit.

I'm not going to attempt to counter your refusal of my Jesus = Michael proposal (but, gee, "completely" without merit?). Still, I'm interested in your comment about Jesus doing the creation. Do you base that on this:

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Perhaps there are a few others. Either way, it's interesting, if this is the source. We have probably a thousand scriptures that clearly say God is the creator and one that says all things are created by Christ and from that we know that Jesus did the creating?

Is it possible there is some other understanding that could be applied to this ONE verse? It's especially interesting because Paul, the same person who wrote the above to the Ephesians says in Acts 17:

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


It's pretty clear that he's talking about God the father doing all this creation since he finally refers to Jesus in v31.

Quoted: I believe Adventists hold this view.

I think the JW's do too (I am not a JW, btw). It is clearly not an original idea.

Quoted: Jesus cannot be an angel, because angels are created beings. Jesus did the creating, and God and Jesus direct the angels as they see fit.

Yeah, GoGop makes a good point here. It would seem that if Jesus were indeed Michael there would be a lot more text connecting the two.

Perhaps Michael is a prince. A prince to head the angels. It would seem there is just not enough text about Michael to come to a definite answer. Not to mention, this idea makes me leary of it.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Mr 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.  Angels and Son are different.

Lu 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
 Again, different.
1co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?  Saints will never judge Jesus.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;   Jesus the Creator.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;  No angel sits on a throne.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.  Saints made better than angels, but only God is better than Jesus.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Showing that this doesn't happen.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Jesus is higher than angels, not one of them.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?  Again, ministering to the saints who will eventually rule over them.

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. People brought to glory, but angels remain the same.


1pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. They couldn't be subject to an equal.

Re 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Re 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Re 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Re 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Re 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Re 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Re 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Re 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Re 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
All this given to one who is over all (except the Father). Not one of the thousands of angels.



Re 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.  
Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.  
Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:  
Re 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.  
Re 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.  
Re 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.  
Re 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.  
Re 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.  
Re 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, (The angel said don't worship me, because he's also a servant of God and Jesus) and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.  
Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.  
Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.  
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.  
Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.  
Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.  
Re 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.  
Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.  
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.  
Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:  
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.  
Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.  
Re 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


There's more, but I'm too tired to look it up tonight. I think there's enough here to make it clear though.  

Quoted: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You might want to get out your concordance and do a bit more research on that word "word." Trying substituting the word "Jesus" everytime that word is used in the scriptures. After you've done that, let's talk about these verses.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

see above

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

OK, TWO scriptures . . . the same comments in my post above apply. As I said before, we see Paul making contridictory statements in other places. God is not the author of confusion so there must be a way to understand these two scriptures that allow them to not contridict with the far, far greater number of scriptures that say God created.

I said I wasn't going to counter your argument against Jesus=Michael so all I'll add is that the belief that Jesus was an angel pre-earthly does not suggest he was an angel while on Earth. Clearly, Jesus was made of a woman as it says in Galatians. God, through the holy ghost, was able to cause a conception in Marys womb and Jesus grew up the normal way from then on. He HAS to be a man on Earth for his work to have any relevance to us.

Quoted: He HAS to be a man on Earth for his work to have any relevance to us.

I'm interested in that response.

If God chooses to come to earth as a man, a  God, or a God-filled man,  how does it change the value of the sacrifice on Cavalry?

If God chose to resurrect Jesus in the flesh, or Jesus chose to resurrect himself in a spiritual form, how does it change the miracle of the resurrection?

It seems bold to say you will only accept God's will if it occurs in a certain way that you find relevant.

Quoted: Quoted: He HAS to be a man on Earth for his work to have any relevance to us. I'm interested in that response. If God chooses to come to earth as a man, a  God, or a God-filled man,  how does it change the value of the sacrifice on Cavalry? If God chose to resurrect Jesus in the flesh, or Jesus chose to resurrect himself in a spiritual form, how does it change the miracle of the resurrection? It seems bold to say you will only accept God's will if it occurs in a certain way that you find relevant.

Jesus is supposed to be our example. He's been called the forerunner. We're supposed to follow him. Doesn't it set us up for failure to hold out the deeds of God for us to emulate? That is not the action of a just and righteous God.

Now we're not called to rise from a physical death but we are called to rise from a condition of spiritual death. Jesus did this before he went to the natural cross -- no, he never took in sin but he was in the world and under the Law. He had to overcome these and get into a deeper, annointed depth of spirit with God. That's what Christ means: annointed.

If it takes a deity to do this then what hope is there for man. By living the life that he did as a man, he gives hope to every man.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 ¶ For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Quoted: I said I wasn't going to counter your argument against Jesus=Michael so all I'll add is that the belief that Jesus was an angel pre-earthly does not suggest he was an angel while on Earth. Clearly, Jesus was made of a woman as it says in Galatians. God, through the holy ghost, was able to cause a conception in Marys womb and Jesus grew up the normal way from then on. He HAS to be a man on Earth for his work to have any relevance to us.

Hard to keep up with your subject-jumping.

Quoted: Quoted: I said I wasn't going to counter your argument against Jesus=Michael so all I'll add is that the belief that Jesus was an angel pre-earthly does not suggest he was an angel while on Earth. Clearly, Jesus was made of a woman as it says in Galatians. God, through the holy ghost, was able to cause a conception in Marys womb and Jesus grew up the normal way from then on. He HAS to be a man on Earth for his work to have any relevance to us. Hard to keep up with your subject-jumping.

Sorry. I said I wasn't going to try to counter any arguments that opposed the Jesus = Michael proposition. In other words, I'm not defending it, just offering it for consideration.

I have commented on other things that came up -- i.e. Jesus as creator of all -- which seemed tangential to the Jesus = Michael proposition.

The statement above was just meant to clarify that I am only suggesting that Jesus existed as Michael PRE-Earthly. I'm not saying that he was an angel while here on earth. The soul may have been the same soul but I don't believe he had access to his angel mind while on Earth. I believe he was equipped with the same mind any human would have but that he grew into a deeper depth of spirit (and thus obtained angel type material) while here. That fact that he did it as a human suggests that we can too.

Does that make sense or help?

Yes, that does make it come through more clearly for me.


I'll stop here though because I disagree about Jesus being an angel at any time, and you've already stated you don't want just stick on that point.

Thanks for clearing up what you were saying though.