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Posted: 9/29/2005 8:20:38 AM EDT
A friend of mine wanted to convert to Judaism and the rabbi told her "Judaism is a race not a religion". I'm confused because I thought it is possible to convert to Judaism.
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Posted: 9/29/2005 8:26:40 AM EDT
[#1]
I thought it was both?? Hmm...
Shok |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 8:40:14 AM EDT
[#2]
Me too. But I also thought anyone can convert. I've found a site that says some rabbis will turn people away 3 times to test their sincerity. So perhaps that was his way of turning her away? |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 8:42:29 AM EDT
[#3]
I don't think it's a race as in "ethnicity" but it is definately a culture. Just as you have Irish who are "culturally Catholic" but won't step inside a Church, so too you have people whose name is Rabinowitz, whose dad is a Rabbi, but who eat cheeseburgers. Maybe not an "observant" Jew, but still a cultural Jew.
Culturally - by family, the Cardinal of Parish is Jewish, but he's Catholic. Then you have the Ethiopians... african by ethnicity but Jewish by culture and faith... Bottom line, racists are nuts, as there are far more forces going on in humanity than bloodlines and DNA. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 9:18:05 AM EDT
[#4]
I thought descendents of Abraham through Isaac who lived in the Kingdom of Judeah and Kingdom of Israel were Jews? Sounds ethnic to me. Shok |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 9:21:36 AM EDT
[#5]
I guess the Jews are saving their "salvation" all for themselves?
Its a good thing Jesus doesnt want me to do that with my salvation, but instead tell everyone. Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Mark 4:20-23 21He said to them, "Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don't you put it on its stand? 22For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. 23If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear." |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 9:29:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Your friend is either lying or exagerating or no such event ever happened. Such statements as those are common rhetoric of the White power types.
It is dificult to convert to Judaism, and it is Jewish Law that a Rabbi would be a bit of a prick about it for a while in order to test someones sincearity. The idea that Judaism is a race is pure foolishness. Anyone who buys into that is not very observant. First of all, The Torah Commands us to love the convert 36 times...more than anyother commandment. So how can a group of people that allows outsiders to join our marriage group be a race? All you have to do is look around....Jews from Europe and Russia have many of the genetic traits of the local population. Jews from Northern Africa and the middle east have many of the Genetic traits of them....and so on and their children can and do freely marry each other. Go to some of the most orthodox synogogues on the planet and you will see Black converts often times with their white looking wives who were born Jews. (These things are something anyone can go see for themselves, and this alone destroys the argument that Jews are a race) Sure, DNA has shown that Jews all over the world do indeed have common genetic markers, that makes sense, at one time the gene pool was more or less homogenious, but that still doesnt change the fact that outside DNA through conversion comes into the gene pool all the time. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 9:34:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Another statement that assumes things in order to arive at a conclusion. You make this statement on the assertion that the Jews have something they dont want to share or that we even need salvation. In your faith, those concepts are true, but are alien to Judaism If you are not Jewish, you dont need to be. To us there is more than one path to the spiritual. And the Christian Concept of Salvation is alien to us. Each man will be judged according to how he lived his life. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 9:37:47 AM EDT
[#8]
Judaism is a religion, not a race or an ethnicity, or Nationality. Most Israelis are Jewish, not all Jews are Israeli.
You can be Jewish and Caucasian, Jewish and Hispanic, Jewish and whatever, fill in the blank. You are Jewish if you were born to a Jewish female. Fathers religion is not relevant. You CAN convert to Judaism from any other religion, nationality and race are not factors. Conversion involves religious instruction, and rabbinical supervision., culminating in a Mikvah, whis is essentially a ritual bath for cleansing, done with witnesses, I guess analagous to a Baptism. My wife was born to a non-Jewish woman, and raised in a Jewish household, so she was non-Jewish, even though her father is Jewish. She converted before we were married. Now, lets make it more difficult. In the US, there are three common Jewish sub-groups, Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox. The Orthodox are further subdivided, but that is beyond the scope of the question. Orthodox does not recognize non-orthodox, conservative does not recognize reform, and reform will convert anyone. One thing I am sure about is that either your friend misunderstood what the Rabbi said, or maybe he is Orthodox, in which case he meant that if you wern't born into the religion, you can't become Orthodox, which may or may not be true depending on the subgroup. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 9:38:03 AM EDT
[#9]
The above is almost exactly what I was going to say. In Israel one sees Jews from every "racial" group, and I mean every. My wife was adopted by a Jewish family amd converted at birth. It was a closed adoption but she most likely is northern European. My son is almost 14 and so blond we jokingly call him Sven since he looks like a Swede. Your friend may have just been confused. It takes almost a year to convert, especially to conservative or orthodox congregations.
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Posted: 9/29/2005 9:44:59 AM EDT
[#10]
Of course you can convert to Orthodox(That includes all brands). "Orthodox" was the only form of Judaism for most of Jewish history. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 9:46:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Actually, one year is the minimum. For true orthodox conversions, it can take many years. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 10:21:30 AM EDT
[#12]
I was allowing for the very small possibility that she might have been speaking to a some ultra-orthodox Rabbi, in which case for all practical purposes, conversion is not reasonable, or straightforward. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 10:47:14 AM EDT
[#13]
Hey! That's not fair and rude. A liar or a "White power type"?  I never mentioned what race she was - kinda a stretch to assume that she was a "white power type".  I'm guessing you make that statement from your own personal experiences, and I'm sorry if that is the case. Let's just make it clear that I'm sure she was not lying and I do not appreciate "white power types" and do not (to my knowledge) call any "white power types" "friend". Anyway, she was very heartbroken - she was going through a confusing periond of searching at the time and felt very rejected. She had worked herself up thinking that she doesn't believe in any of the Christian churches any longer, she doesn't believe in Islam, she MUST be a Jew. (Her train of thought, not mine  )After reading that it is sometimes the custom to turn people away, I think this must have just been his way of turning her away. Is it your opinion that all rabbis no longer test potential candidates by turning them away 3 times? Here's the link I found when I was trying to find the answer myself: www.convert.org/process.htm
I believe her that he said race. Maybe he could tell she was just struggling in her own religion and wasn't really a good candidate so he thought that would turn her away strong enough to make her think even harder on her problem? ETA: Anyway, common consensus and answer to my question is that anybody can convert to Judaism. My guess for this situation is that she was just being turned away and that's the way she was turned away. Unusual, but oh well. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:03:30 AM EDT
[#14]
I was not accusing you or your friend of being a white power type...I appologize if it sounded that way. I was just trying to get accross the point that such statements are "White Power" rhetoric 101 and are patently untrue. As far as the "Three Times" it is not only happening, it is Jewish Law. In other words it is a mandate that if it does not happen, the conversion would not be valid. Judaism is one of the most misunderstood religions on earth, it makes sense as many religions come from Judaism and assume or assert in hindsight what Judaism is because of what their present faith is. However very few ever check it out for themselves. Islam and Christianity are Alien faiths to Judaism. It is shocking to most people how little they have in common on most every level. The reason it is shocking is because of what I have said...people assume based on their current faith. It is real simple. Judaism is not a race...how can you be a race when anyone can convert to your religion and enter the gene pool Conversion is very hard and takes a long time We try to convince people not to convert. In the end ,some people do convert and are every much a Jew as every Jew who has ever lived. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:04:24 AM EDT
[#15]
__________________________ The rabbi she approached may have been attempting (and poorly at that) to turn her away...generally the third time you approach a rabbi is when they see you are truly interested. I converted to Judaism 12 years years ago. Over the course of the year were courses by my rabbi, independant study (acquired a great start on my Jewish texts this way!). It was a long, interesting, and ultimately very fulfilling spiritual journey. Luckilly, I had been circumcised as an infant, though was still required to undergo the ceremonial Hatafat Dam Brit , which involved a small amount of blood from a scratch. Then the ceremony of tevillah, which is immersion in a ritual bath called a mikveh. I chose my new name by which I would be known in my community, as was the first public conversion in the synogogue (we were a new synogogue way back then). The following is a site that offers a good overview of the process: http://www.convert.org/process.htm B'Shalom, Ed |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:06:58 AM EDT
[#16]
There is no such thing as "Ultra Orthodox" you are either a Torah observant Jew or you are not. Dont let clothing, custom or sect confuse you on such issues. While some sects make conversion more dificult, it is a commandment that conversion is allowed. So by the very nature of calling someone "ultra orthodox" you have guranteed they will allow conversions. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:07:05 AM EDT
[#17]
your friend went to a moron not a rabbi.
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:08:56 AM EDT
[#18]
people have SUCH a hard time understanding this. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:17:44 AM EDT
[#19]
That's cool. Sorry for jumping the gun. WP = I didn't even understand where anyone could get WP out of my post so you can see how ignorant I am of that mess.  When discussing this with her, I was shocked (and said so) that he would say race is an issue with conversion when I had heard of people converting before.  maybe the rabbi thought she was a really horrible candidate and rather than be troubled by her again and go through the whole 3 time thing he decided to say something so off the wall just to be rid of her for good.  Again, she's not a liar to my knowledge, but she most certainly can be a spaz.  (by spaz, I mean I could see her going to a rabbi in bawling emotional hysterics saying "I have to be a Jew! I can't be a Christian anymore." Decisions of that magnitude probably shouldn't be made under those circumstances anyway.) |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:25:41 AM EDT
[#20]
One thing to keep in mind, is not all Rabbis are in the conversion business. Think of Rabbis like Lawyers. just because a guy is a Lawyer doesnt mean he is the guy to defend you from a murder charge, you wouldnt want your Tax attorney doing that would you? Rabbis come in many flavors just like Lawyers. In the Orthodox world, very few Rabbis are in the conversion business. The scope of Jewish Law is so vast that very few people can have a good grasp on all of it. That is why Rabbis, who are Rabbis for a living, will often specilize in an area. Rabbis who specilize in conversions get to recieve one of the holiest things a person can receive, a blessing from a sinless person. When a Person converts, when they emerge from the ritual bath, the convert blesses the Rabbi. It has great significance. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:26:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Well, at least I know more about the process now. Very interesting!!!
  Thanks guys!! |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:26:44 AM EDT
[#22]
and Persephone, the web page you listed is ridiculous. convert.org??? do you see some of the 'rabbi's on the masthead? At the very least, even if you don't want to live like a real jew, why not get a real jewish conversion that everyone will recognize. Sounding less mean: Even if your friend doesn't plan on being an observant (That's teh correct term, as we observe the torah) jew, why not get the conversion that all branches will recognize and respect.
=Even some branches of reform and Conservative Judaism will not respect a conversion done by a rabbi 'rachel'  |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:31:16 AM EDT
[#23]
See, this is why Google isn't always the best answer. I found that site from google after I posted the original thread - figured I'd try to answer the question myself. 
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:34:27 AM EDT
[#24]
that page represents the left of the left - lets put it this way, those guys are the DU of Judaism.
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Posted: 9/29/2005 11:38:47 AM EDT
[#25]
Ok, I'm going to go shower now. I feel dirty... ...and violated.
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Posted: 9/29/2005 12:09:50 PM EDT
[#26]
hehehehe yeah. always woinder what my folks would say if I married a (female) rabbi.
'How could you?' 'But ma, she's a rabbi!'
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Posted: 9/29/2005 12:09:52 PM EDT
[#27]
______________________ I appologize for the rest of 'em, Persephone. The sensitive nature of outreach to those interested in Judaim should never, ever, be so...rude. Ed |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 12:19:23 PM EDT
[#28]
See Scuba, I understand what you are trying to do, but you did it again. Binding, unbreakable Jewish law states the opposite of what you claim. We do not "outreach" and rudness and harshness is very much a part of the Rabbi keeping Jewish law himself. You are asking a Rabbi to violate halacha in order to take on the "customs of the nations around" If the rabbi fails, he could jepordize the conversion. If you know of a Rabbi that is doing outreach to get gentiles to convert, that alone makes those conversions invalid. Jews do things the Jewish way. Part of that is making sure that a potential convert not only has a valid conversion but does so for the sake if Hashem alone. |
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Posted: 9/29/2005 12:32:03 PM EDT
[#29]
________________________ By outreach, it was more of a reaction to the poorly educated rabbi first mentioned by Persephone. Re: "...rudness and harshness..." I'm full aware that Jewish Law says a rabbi must continue to dissuade you, and may do so by various means. He may push you off a few times, he may not show up for scheduled meetings; there's no telling what he will do to test your sincerity and perseverance. I would believe that rudeness and harshness would not be extended to the potential convert as was originally described by Persephone. Ed |
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Posted: 9/30/2005 4:41:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Wrong...the Pharisees were one form, the Saduccees another, then their are the Esscenes and we can't forget the Zealots....... As for conversion, I did not read Scuba Ed yet, but i converted, The Rabbi made it to the second do you really want too? I cut him off and we got on with it. I spent like two years in going to an outreach program... And the Orthodox won't recognize me or others, that is on them, I don't reconize them. I went as an act of Conscience....I had felt I was a Jew the whole time I was growing up, as a teen I thought of being a Rabbi, that is funny for a Luthern Kid. I had a few run ins with an Orthodox roommate in college, he was a prejudiced ignorant arrogant, lets let that go for the Shabbos. As for your friend converting, email me , Scuba Ed or Silent running and we will be glad to answer questions |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 4:44:38 PM EDT
[#31]
Why don't you describe your conversion process here, and I'll just reference the code of Jewish Law and show you why. ETA: the groups you describe are not comparable to the reform and conservative movements in a myriad of ways chiefly in that they represented almost entirely new religions, whereas conservative and reform merely seek to cheapen and degrade established Judaism. |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 5:34:49 PM EDT
[#32]
________________ Hi Chapper -- Well, here's mine: I converted to Judaism 12 years years ago. Over the course of the year were courses by my rabbi, independant study (acquired a great start on my Jewish texts this way!). It was a long, interesting, and ultimately very fulfilling spiritual journey. Luckilly, I had been circumcised as an infant, though was still required to undergo the ceremonial Hatafat Dam Brit , which involved a small amount of blood from a scratch. Then the ceremony of tevillah, which is immersion in a ritual bath called a mikveh. I chose my new name by which I would be known in my community, as was the first public conversion in the synogogue (we were a new synogogue way back then). The following is a site that offers a good overview of the process: http://www.convert.org/process.htm B'Shalom, Ed |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 5:52:29 PM EDT
[#33]
________________ Re: "Wrong...the Pharisees were one form, the Saduccees another, then their are the Esscenes and we can't forget the Zealots......." ___ The Sadussees and the Pharasees where in the context of the times very similar to what we would ascribe to as differing political parties. The Sadussees represented during the time of the Second Temple the Priestly caste, which had control of the Temple and where more interested in maintaining the status-quo. Essentially, they had become corrupt. If there's anything which may describe the Esscenes and whatever movement espoused by the person of Jesus, it would have been more in line with the religious/political party of the Pharasees. Generally, the Pharasees were a movement that, if I remember correctly, where espousing ideas that were less in line with the need to speak with G-d via the discredited priestly (Sadussee) caste, and instead have a G-d relationship more directly. Re: The Zealots...any group who where against the Roman occupation of the land of Israel, and who defended it have been referred to as zealots. Among these, too, would have been the zicarri, or "dagger-men", as they would assassinate both roman and jewish folk who were alligned with the romans. ---- |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 5:55:55 PM EDT
[#34]
not the best source ed. 
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Posted: 10/1/2005 6:02:07 PM EDT
[#35]
___ It was, I had hoped, an "easy read" for non-Jewish folk. Please, chapper...what's a better site, and provide for gentiles who would find such usefull. Thanks, Ed |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 6:16:53 PM EDT
[#36]
Perse...silly question...but why the conversion? I'm guessing a man is involved..a person (after studying Judaism) who decides to convert is very different from a person who converts because of a new found love. THAT may be part of the reason they give converts a hard time...just a thought... |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 6:20:44 PM EDT
[#37]
i have no idea actually! |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 7:17:14 PM EDT
[#38]
This site makes it fairly clear.... http://www.beingjewish.com/conversion/becomingjewish.html  |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 8:40:31 PM EDT
[#39]
You prove my point. Over the course of Jewish history, Orthodoxy is the only one with an unbroken chain and the only form of Judaism through much of the course of Jewish History. Pharisitical Judaism is what is now called Orthodox Judaism.....Do you see and Saducees or Esscenes? And are you saying as someone who whants to be Jewish, or claims to be, That the very people and seed, that have kept Judaism alive since Sinai are not a group you recognize.....Haha, Ok, whatever. Where do you think the customs even you observe come from? |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 8:41:56 PM EDT
[#40]
You leave out a valid Bet Din. |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 3:19:14 AM EDT
[#41]
what are you talking about, thier was mixed seating at Mount Sinai!  There were female rabbis at The Temple And Jews have been .... ok I'm gonna stop now.
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Posted: 10/2/2005 5:03:14 AM EDT
[#42]
As you claim. |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 7:09:24 AM EDT
[#43]
huh. Saducees rejected previous Judaism, Pharisees accepted. I haven't seen anyone claim to the contrary. What do you claim?
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Posted: 10/2/2005 3:10:41 PM EDT
[#44]
Nice to know Judaism can cause arguments as easily as Christianity...
I'm just sayin!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 3:28:03 PM EDT
[#45]
Not quite. Although aguments exist Within Traditional Judaism, most things are universal. Sometimes cusoms very, but it is all the same except for some minor details. Traditional Judaism has not changed much in thousands of years and Halacha (Jewish Law) doesnt change. The problem arises when a group pops up and says "We are now Judaism" and then proceeds to say Halacha has changed. Sometimes the people in that group are Jewish, sometimes they are not. It happens, Almost always for political reasons and those groups dont last....Yet Traditional Judaism endures with its unbroken chain. |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 4:02:26 PM EDT
[#46]
hey whatever hasn't killed us only makes us stronger. |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 4:08:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Amen...Wait...Ahmein...(phonetically) Personally, I have alot of respect for Jews who practice: it isn't the easiest of faiths: I PERSONALLY think the whole fasting thing would kill me (I'm Italian...fasting means NOT having bread with my dinner!) I'm very fortunate to have been exposed to the faith over the years...fun to "dabble" without having to "do."
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Posted: 10/3/2005 2:53:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Actually Jews did seek to convert, it was after years of distrust and being controlled by other cultures, did they withdrawl into their own culture. Jews changed over the years, especially during the First Century BCE. In fact there is a Christian influence in the Orthodox. One thing that Reform Judiasm did was eliminate the superstitions of the old Eastern European Jews. Those that try to tell you that they and only they represent Judiasm are far off base, As Jews we are a diverse People. To excert this next quote is form a Jewish website: [quoteASHKENAZIM: 'People of the north'. Originally German Jewry, later came to designate Jews of northern France, Poland, Russia and Scandinavia. Yiddish was widely spoken by Ashkenazim. LEVANTINE People of the Levant. Jews of the eastern Mediterranean area that is now occupied by Lebanon and Syria and Israel. MIZRACHIM 'Eastern'. Jews of North African and Middle Eastern ancestry. ORIENTAL Jews of South and East Asian ancestry. ROMANIOTE Jews of the Eastern Roman Empire, spread throughout much of Asia Minor (mostly under Roman control) before and after the destruction of the Temple. Latin speaking. SEPHARDIM: Descendants of Jews whose ancestors lived on the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal). In Mediterranean countries the Sephardim spoke Judeo-Spanish (Ladino). OTHERS Ethiopian Jews, Anusim, Karaites, Samaritans, and Lost Tribes. ] As you can see we are many and this shows the reason that Jews survive. For myself you may say what you wnat, I am a JEW! I will never sit in service with you, because I do not like people that are filled with Hatred. I would rather look more for my Jewish roots, Roots that were ripped form me, and fill my coffers of Friends with those LIke Scuba Ed, AZ Larry, SilentRun and others, OH ETH, he is my brother and welcome at my home anytime. Youguys or you! can take your narrow mindedness and go sit in a corner... |
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