I really hope this doesn't start a flame war, but even though it is mostly old testament - God has been know to allow things to happen due to the complete wickedness of people.  The Flood, Jericho, the Egyptians, etc. etc.

it's kind of bad.
but there are places that are worse.

New Orleans isn't any worse than Ibor City or Las Vegas.

I honestly don't know.

NO is a 'pit of sin' to be sure - cultural value notwithstanding.

(someone ask God what He thinks of cultural values.....)

But I honestly wouldn't say what God's purpose was for the storm. His ways aren't ours.

I hate that I'm at work right now. I'd honestly like to be there helping with the rescue/cleanup operations.

It's true: God has been known to allow things to happen to wicked cities and civilizations. In the case of NOLA, we really don't have any way of knowing. We'll never know for sure in this lifetime. I'm not going to be the one going out on a limb and suggesting it, I can tell you that.

What about Gulfport? What about Biloxi? What about Bayou Le Batre?

Are all of these devastated areas also 'under judgement'? It's not like the storm erupted over New Orleans proper and left everything else untouched.

No.

I believe in the New Covenant, where God doesn't go around smiting people.  We all have to die sometime.  What matters is not how we die, but whether we've reconciled with God.

If NO were a new Sodom and Gomorrah, well, actually, it'd be more like the biblical flood (no pillars of fire, but a hell of a lot of water), then it'd kind of go against some of the other things God told us.

I'm thinking it's more a natural disaster, as in this is part of the suffering of fleshly existence.

Our beloved Heavenly Father will no longer visit Devastation upon us, not intentionally for misdeeds, the Old Testament days are long gone, this Storm will serve a different purpose, if not only for teaching us through trials and the like.


That all said, NO is definately akin to Sodom

not any more

"Our beloved Heavenly Father will no longer visit Devastation upon us, not intentionally for misdeeds, the Old Testament days are long gone, this Storm will serve a different purpose, if not only for teaching us through trials and the like"

Do you know of the book of revelations?

Quoted: not any more

Quoted: "Our beloved Heavenly Father will no longer visit Devastation upon us, not intentionally for misdeeds, the Old Testament days are long gone, this Storm will serve a different purpose, if not only for teaching us through trials and the like" Do you know of the book of revelations?

Yes I do, it deals mainly with prophesy regarding the coming of the new millenium (not date wise of course but the second coming of our Lord)

I do not think God will ever punish us as a society ever again, punishment is now reserved for us at judgement when we die, we have agency to chose the right over evil.  I chose right so I do not fear that Heavenly Father will wipe out my sinful city to deal with their iniquities, not that  iam concerned either way, if I am called ot him becuase of the sins of my neighbours I have done my best to live by the Teachings of Christ and repented of my mistakes

I do not necessarily advocate this view, but I can imagine someone noticing this correlation:

Sodom and Gomorrah - centers of debauchery - gone

Pompey - Roman city, center of sexual debauchery (phallic symbols on mailboxs) - gone, Volcanic Explosion

Port Royal - Caribbean city famous center of debauchery - gone (leveled by earthquake in 1692)

New Orleans - destroyed by hurricane during a festival literally called "The debauchery festival" - Mardi Gras famous for debauchery - gone

... No more than Seattle, Nashville or Tehran

Quoted: I do not necessarily advocate this view, but I can imagine someone noticing this correlation: Sodom and Gomorrah - centers of debauchery - gone Pompey - Roman city, center of sexual debauchery (phallic symbols on mailboxs) - gone, Volcanic Explosion Port Royal - Caribbean city famous center of debauchery - gone (leveled by earthquake in 1692) New Orleans - destroyed by hurricane during a festival literally called "The debauchery festival" - Mardi Gras famous for debauchery - gone

what about Gulfport, Mississippi?

I dont know what it was but it was not "The five cities of the plain" (I dont know where the idea of just "Sodom and Gemorah" comes from). In the Torah G-d destroyed the five cities of the plain (known as the sittim plain) not just Soddom and Gemorah. Those cities where destroyed based on the Hebrew concept of the Minyan. (derived from the math that Abraham uses in his negotiations with G-d) This math does not work with 2 cities, and infact the Torah says it was five cities.

Having said that, the carnage in New Orleans was not for lack of a Minyan as they have several every day. So no, It was not a modern equivelent.

If you dont understand this post, that is fine, Just understand the Torah tells us why the five cites of the plain were destroyed and New Orleans does not fit that criterea.

Quoted: Quoted: I do not necessarily advocate this view, but I can imagine someone noticing this correlation: Sodom and Gomorrah - centers of debauchery - gone Pompey - Roman city, center of sexual debauchery (phallic symbols on mailboxs) - gone, Volcanic Explosion Port Royal - Caribbean city famous center of debauchery - gone (leveled by earthquake in 1692) New Orleans - destroyed by hurricane during a festival literally called "The debauchery festival" - Mardi Gras famous for debauchery - gone what about Gulfport, Mississippi?

I did not say that I agree with that view -- I think it is a terrible tragedy, and I think it is not God's will for these things to happen.  I think "The devil came to steal, kill, and destroy", and since a hurrican does all three things, hurricanes are works of the enemy.  

As a whole I think the entire US is.
Just take a look folks

NO! That would be San Francisco. Sodom was full of rainbow warriors.

IMHO, it not a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah. Both Sodom and Gomorrah were totally full of sin, not a righteous person one there other than Abraham, Lot and his family. Plus these two/five citys were totally destroyed, nothing survived including the structures.

MTUSA is correct in that, look at the US as a whole. We are spiraling down as a nation and I feel it will only get worst. I just hope that we will be raptured up before America is judged and not after.

Please remember to keep these people, expecially our brothers and sisters in Christ in our prayers.

No

There is sin in every city.

In the eyes of God I'm sure we all deserve equal.

GM

The point could be made - but remember, we are all sinners.

Quoted: The point could be made - but remember, we are all sinners.

Absolutely.

I don't doubt, however, that the more wicked the population the higher the risk of major disaster/invasion/etc.  It isn't that the Lord directly punishes people so much as he just doesn't do as much to protect them.

Good people also suffer disasters and other tragedies.  So of course I'm talking in generalities and not specific terms for every person or city.

Edited to add:  It wouldn't hurt for San Francisco, Las Vegas, etc. to put more effort into repentence.  It might spare them some serious heartache in the future.

Quoted:"Our beloved Heavenly Father will no longer visit Devastation upon us, not intentionally for misdeeds, the Old Testament days are long gone, this Storm will serve a different purpose, if not only for teaching us through trials and the like

"Do you know of the book of revelations?




“Yes I do, it deals mainly with prophesy regarding the coming of the new millenium (not date wise of course but the second coming of our Lord)

I do not think God will ever punish us as a society ever again, punishment is now reserved for us at judgement when we die, we have agency to chose the right over evil. I chose right so I do not fear that Heavenly Father will wipe out my sinful city to deal with their iniquities, not that iam concerned either way, if I am called ot him becuase of the sins of my neighbours I have done my best to live by the Teachings of Christ and repented of my mistakes”


The Seven Trumpets
1 Land there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. 8:7 2 Sea something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. 8:8 3 Rivers &
Springs a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water-- the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter. 8:10 4 Sun a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night. 8:12 5 Abyss
(First Woe)
I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 9:1 6 Great river Euphrates  
(Second Woe)
It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." The four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
9:13

Interlude
·  The little scroll - tasted sweet, but turned bitter.
·  Measuring the temple  
·  The two witnesses  (10:8-11)
(11:1-2)
(11:3-14)
7
Air  
(Third Woe)
there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." 11:15

THE SEVEN BOWLS
First Bowl:
   16:2- The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.  
  On the Land: Like the First Trumpet. "Earth" in Rev.13:11 corresponds to the "religious world", from where comes the Second Beast, the False Prophet of Rev.13:9-18, and of the Sixth Plague...
   Here, it affects those religious people who had the mark of the beast and worshipped his image.
   Painful sores: They are mostly sores of the soul, errors, heresies... any error or heresy is a cancer in the soul, much worse than a physical cancer or AIDS, because it can ruin the joy and love and peace of our only life on earth, and send us eternally into Heaven or Hell.
   Like the sixth plague on Egypt (Ex.9:9)... as Satan afflicted Job with boils (Job 2:7). In Deu.28:35 painful boils were the chastisement on those who disobeyed God... AIDS?... cancer?... anthrax or any other germ?...
  Matthew Henry, without any evidence, he just mentions the "Romish clergy"... ridiculous!.. he is obsessed with the Pope and the Church... he forgets to mention the New Age, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses...

Second Bowl:
   16:3- The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died.
   On the see: Like in the Second Trumpet. The "see" in Rev.13:1 corresponds to the "social world", from where the First Beast comes, the political Beast of Rev.13:1-10.
   Blood: It may mean a political and social and economic collapse affecting every body in the world... this collapse, as anything in Revelation, will come into our lives before we die... it came in the lives of Kennedy and Shakespeare and Marilyn Monroe... and on every person ever born, before his death.    
   Matthew Henry, again, mentions "upon the jurisdiction and dominion of the papacy"... it is a pity that such a well known scholar of the Bible makes this ridiculous assertion... he looks obsessed with the papacy!... open your eyes, the many Henrys around!... I pray for you, please, pray for me. Thanks...
   Like the first plague on Egypt (Ex.7:17)
   Every living thing in the sea died... in the second trumpet, a third of the living creatures in the sea died (Rev.8:8-9).
   
Third Bowl:
   16:4- The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.
   5- Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged;
   6- for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."
   7- And I heard the altar respond: "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.".
   On he rivers and springs: Like in the Third Trumpet, the rivers and the fountains are the most intimate parts of ourselves, our feelings and emotions and our very strength and ideals... in the 3rd Trumpet they became bitter, here they become blood, like the first plague on Egypt (Ex.7:17-19)... The blood may mean that persons die with desperation...
   Here, Matthew Henry has the obsessive audacity to mention "the Jesuits, who, like streams, conveyed the venom and poison of their errors"... without any reason or evidence at all!...  The Jesuits number today 23,570. Only in the area of New York there are 539 Jesuit priests, who conduct 1 University, 3 Colleges, 7 High Schools, 4 Retreat Houses, 8 Parishes, the Society for the Blind, chaplaincies in several hospitals and prisons, and many publications... is this what Mr. Henry calls streams of venom and poison?... and it is not something of the past, "conveyed", but it is today!.    
   I heard the angel: In verses 5-7, the angel praises the Holy One for sending these Plagues because true and just are your judgments.
   As the 7 Trumpets came about because of the prayers of the saints (Rev.8:4), the 7 Plagues came about because of the prayers and sufferings of the victorious, the martyrs (Rev.15:2, 16:6)... the martyrs under the altar of Rev.6:9, means the "altar response" of verse 7...
   The reason for the judgment is given here, they shed the blood of the saints, one of the most heinous crimes that man can commit... but the mercy of God wants to forgive them, as He did with Paul, Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief (1Tim.1:13)...
   ... We should never forget that all these catastrophes are mainly calls to repentance, as the angel of the next two Plagues will specifically state, but they refused to repent and glorify him (Rev.16:9,11).

Fourth Bowl:
   16:8- The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire.
   9- They were scorched by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
   The sun, as always in the Bible, is Christ Himself, the light of the world... the sun that clothed the woman in Rev.12...
   The same sun of the Fourth Trumpet... but the nature of the Trumpet was darkness... here it is intense heat, Jesus is pouring all the fire of his love to the world... but instead of repentance, they cursed the name of God!... and refuse to repent and glorify him... they become obsessed, unreasonable…  obstinate,  hardened beyond repentance, like Pharaoh or Judas, unable to see the truth, the real light of Jesus in His Church...
   ... Satan blinds the heretics and unable them to feel the immense love of Jesus in the Eucharist and the glorious life of Christ within us... the real way and the truth and the life who is Jesus Christ in person in us!... in Person in us!... it is mind boggling, but it is just that: Jesus in Person in you and me!.    
   Here, again, Matthew Henry has the ridiculous audacity to call the sun "some eminent prince of the popish communion", without any evidence or reason, obsessed with the Pope and the Church... open your eyes, if you think as Mr. Henry.

Fifth Bowl:
   16:10- The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony
   11- and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.
   The Throne of the Beast is where heresy is!... Revelation points out exactly where the prostitute sits: Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages (Rev.17:15).
   It is the swarm of locusts of the Fifth Trumpet... the Mormons, and the Jehovah Witnesses, and the Moonies, and the Adventists, and the New Age, and the Christian Science Church, and the Church of Scientology, the Children of God, the Church Universal and Triumphant, the Worldwide Church of God, and the Branch Davidians of WACO, and the People's Temple in Jonestown, and the many other heretic denominations...
   ... Only this time, in the Plague, they were plunged into darkness and   men gnawed their tongues in agony... they realize they go nowhere with their heresies... they are not proclaimed as rulers of mankind, they don't become the god of the world... and they are plunged into darkness, in complete disarray... and they end up doing what verse 11 says.... simply horrible, the work of Satan!.
  Again, Mr. Henry, in his unreasonable obsession, calls "Rome itself" the seat of the beast... he forgets about the Mormons, and the Jehovah Witnesses, and the Moonies, and the New Age...

Sixth Bowl:
   16:12 - The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.
  It is the same river Euphrates of the Sixth Trumpet... in he Trumpet it was the symbol of the Abominable Desolation of Mt.25:15 .. in the Sixth Plague is also the Abominable Desolation with new insides, as it is usual of Revelation, already described in the Sixth Trumpet and in the Two Witnesses .
   16:13 - Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. -
   This is the first mention of the false prophet who is the beast out the earth, because he is the one who performed the miraculous signs on behalf of the beast in 13:13, and deceived the inhabitants of the earth in 13:14, and is destroyed in 19:20.
   Frogs, as in the second plague on Egypt (Ex. 8:3), are connected with plague.
   The unholy trinity of Satan, beast and false prophet.
- From the mouth of the dragon came the river of lies with which he tried to overwhelm the Church (12:15).
- From the mouth of the beast, political power, came blasphemous pretensions to deity (13:4,8).
- From the mouth of the false prophet came wonders and signs to make people worship the political beast (13:12-15).
       They do the same as the man of lawlessness will in 2.Thes.2:9-10, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness.
   16:14 - and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.    See Armageddon, and 16:16.
   16:15 - Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." -
   A warning to the Church: Christ is coming soon... to you and me exactly the day of our death... and we have to be ready at all times, because he comes as a thief (Mat 24:43, 1.Thes.5:1, 2Pet.3:10, Rev.3:2).
   This is the third of seven blessings in Revelation. Take a look at the 7 Blessings.
   The clothes: The whole armor of of salvation at all times (Eph.6:11-18).
- Some go around naked, they don't even think in God. The naked Laodiceans who are counseled to buy white clothes to wear to cover their shameful nakedness (3:17-18).
   - Others go shamefully: With public sins.
   16:16 - Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
   The only place in the Bible where the word Armageddon appears. See Armageddon, and 16:14
   For Matthew Henry most of this Plague is about "the Turks" and "the downfall of popery" in his obsession with the Pope... There is much more to it... and of course, the Abominable Desolation will come at the end of times, and today, in your life and mine, before we die!... it is written!.

Seventh Bowl:
   16:17 - The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" -
   Into the air: Where Satan is, the prince of power, For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms (Eph.6:12, 2:2).
   "It is done!: As Jesus said when he completed his redemptive work, It is finished... It is done will appear again in Rev.21:6, in the 7th cycle of Revelation, it is the same one with different insides, presenting the new heaven and the new earth and the new city, as it is usual in this Book.
   16:18 - Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.
   The same activities of God appear over and over in Revelation, in the different cycles, showing that the judgment of God comes from God personally:
           - The Vision of the Throne in heaven 4:5.
           - In the Vision of the Altar and Prayers 8:5.
           - After the two witnesses go to heaven in a cloud 11:13.
           - After the seventh trumpet is sounded 11:19.
           - The seventh bowl 16:18.
   This earthquake is the Great Tribulation, For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be as described by Jesus himself in Mat.24:21.
   You and I will have this earthquake in our lives... there is no way to rich Easter Sunday but passing before through Good Friday, our earthquake!... and the earthquake of the end of times.
   It is similar to the Sixth Seal in 6:12-14.
   16:19 - The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
   The Great City was introduced in Rev. 11:8, but Babylon the Great here... Revelation will dedicate to Babylon, the Great City, chapters 17 and 18... here only the results of the Great Tribulation on her are mentioned.
   - Split into three parts: Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants... and  the cities of the nations collapsed, Christianity as a whole looks death in every city and nation all over the world, Jesus has died!... this is at the end of times, but it will occur in the history of salvation of your life and mine, soon!, just before our death... be ready!.
   16:20 - Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. -
   As in the sixth seal of 6:14, in which every mountain and island was removed from its place, the heresies, cults, sects, denominations will not be found.
   16:21 - From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

If you look at revelations then you have to really know that the world is in store for much.

REVELATION S




And no.

Sowing and Reaping.





            REPENT AMERICA
 
P.O. Box 30000, Philadelphia, PA  19103
1-800-3-REPENT


For Immediate Release  8/31/05

Contact: Michael Marcavage
1-800-3-Repent, Ext. 4


ACT OF GOD DESTROYS NEW ORLEANS
DAYS BEFORE "SOUTHERN DECADENCE"


PHILADELPHIA -  Just days before "Southern Decadence", an annual homosexual celebration attracting tens of thousands of people to the French Quarters section of
New Orleans, an act of God destroys the city.

"Southern Decadence" has a history of filling the French Quarters section of the city with drunken homosexuals engaging in sex acts in the public streets and bars. Last
year, a local pastor sent video footage of sex acts being performed in front of police to
the mayor, city council, and the media. City officials simply ignored the footage and continued to welcome and praise the weeklong celebration as being an "exciting event". However, Hurricane Katrina has put an end to the annual celebration of sin.

On the official "Southern Decadence" website (www.SouthernDecadence.com), it
states that the annual event brought in "125,000 revelers" to New Orleans last year, increasing by thousands each year, and up from "over 50,000 revelers" in 1997. This year's 34th annual "Southern Decadence" was set for Wednesday, August 31, 2005 through Monday, September 5, 2005, but due to massive flooding and the damage left by the hurricane, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco has ordered everyone to evacuate the city.

The past three mayors of New Orleans, including Sidney Barthelomew, Marc H. Morial, and C. Ray Nagin, issued official proclamations welcoming visitors to "Southern Decadence". Additionally, New Orleans City Council made other proclamations recognizing the annual homosexual celebration.

"Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city," stated Repent America director Michael Marcavage. "From 'Girls Gone Wild' to 'Southern Decadence', New Orleans was a city that opened its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin.  May it never be the same," he continued.

New Orleans is also known for its Mardi Gras parties where thousands of drunken men revel in the streets to exchange plastic jewelry for drunken women to expose their breasts. This annual event sparked the creation of the "Girls Gone Wild" video series.

"Let us pray for those ravaged by this disaster. However, we must not forget that the citizens of New Orleans tolerated and welcomed the wickedness in their city for so long," Marcavage said. "May this act of God cause us all to think about what we tolerate in our city limits, and bring us trembling before the throne of Almighty God," Marcavage concluded.

"[God] sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust". (Matthew 5:45)

Link to press release: http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html



So Help Me God now on sale at the Repent America Bookstore!
"The Ten Commandments Judge" tells his story, including his pledge before his election, his refusal to obey an order by the Federal District Court, and why he believes this issue is the most crucial of all political questions.


REPENT AMERICA - CALLING A NATION IN REBELLION TOWARD GOD TO REPENTANCE
Repent America is an evangelistic organization based in the birthplace of America, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

If any city in the US deserves it, we ALL do (well... San Fran and Vegas are definitely the worst). But when I hear my wife on the phone talking to her friends and they make some sort of comment about this being "God's Judgement", I tell her [loud enough for the party on the other end to hear] that "God's Judgement" is coming to ALL of our towns soon enough.

Quoted: "Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city," stated Repent America director Michael Marcavage. "From 'Girls Gone Wild' to 'Southern Decadence', New Orleans was a city that opened its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin.  May it never be the same," he continued.

So God is making all the innocent people suffer along with the guilty I guess?

YES!

I listened to talk radio on my drive to Ohio from DC the other night, and a caller on a radio talk show (Michael Savage) asserted that NO is a modern-day Sodom and Gomorrah.

I believe that evil is abundant everywhere, NO is not worse than other places. Things like this do sober us up to take stock of our lives.

If God wanted to take out N.O. he could have used some sort of "tactical flood" and spared all those in AL and MS.

My God isn't like a gang banger, hanging out the window of an 88' oldsmobile, spraying bullets into crowds of innocents.  He's like a well trained sniper.  When he wants to smite something he doesn't have to wipe out three states to do it.

Nope.  Its not even Gaia knocking mankind down a notch to keep any sort of balance, or anything else one might come up with.  It was a hurricane, followed by a flood.  And piss-poor planning by those in the New Orleans and Louisiana  governments.


But if we didn't have modern things like, oh, writing -- I can see how people in that area would start telling of "the big storm and flood" that could, over generations, turn into a mythical flood story, with some "god" trying to wipe out everything on earth.

Quoted: I really hope this doesn't start a flame war, but even though it is mostly old testament - God has been know to allow things to happen due to the complete wickedness of people.  The Flood, Jericho, the Egyptians, etc. etc.

_____________________________________

And 9-11-2001 was due to our nations failings in what manner?  There were 10 people who died in my county this past week, their sins where what?

If you really believe the "old testament" G-d was responsible for this...and if that being were still around...why not would the "new testament" have negated these unfortunate acts?  Does your view of the G-d of the Jews loom so large that our G-d still influences events today...or are you taking events out of naturally occuring events and ascribing influence to the G-d of the Jews?

Your comment makes little sense.  

Source:  CHRISTIAN ANITSEMITISM: A History of Hate, William Nicholls, 1995

.

Quoted: I dont know what it was but it was not "The five cities of the plain" (I dont know where the idea of just "Sodom and Gemorah" comes from). In the Torah G-d destroyed the five cities of the plain (known as the sittim plain) not just Soddom and Gemorah. Those cities where destroyed based on the Hebrew concept of the Minyan. (derived from the math that Abraham uses in his negotiations with G-d) This math does not work with 2 cities, and infact the Torah says it was five cities. Having said that, the carnage in New Orleans was not for lack of a Minyan as they have several every day. So no, It was not a modern equivelent. If you dont understand this post, that is fine, Just understand the Torah tells us why the five cites of the plain were destroyed and New Orleans does not fit that criterea.

____________________________________________________

Thanks for the Hebrew Bible explanation of this neshomamench, you did a good job.

Though I still don't believe, as others in this thread have espoused, that G-d causes the problems we encounter...even those manifestated by the physical phenomena such as the storm Katrina.  I believe that the unfortunate insurance reference to "Acts of G-d" have re-enforced public and uneducated people to believe this is such.  

Quoted: Nope.  Its not even Gaia knocking mankind down a notch to keep any sort of balance, or anything else one might come up with.  It was a hurricane, followed by a flood.  And piss-poor planning by those in the New Orleans and Louisiana  governments. But if we didn't have modern things like, oh, writing -- I can see how people in that area would start telling of "the big storm and flood" that could, over generations, turn into a mythical flood story, with some "god" trying to wipe out everything on earth.

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Well said.

New Orleans has always been the Cespool of the South.  Maybe God has done us a favor.  Maybe all the other shit holes will get it and no one will be left in the Middle East!



That being said.  Questions like this will bring the crazys out for sure.  

OOPS....I guess I am one of them now!

Quoted: New Orleans has always been the Sespool of the South.

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No way!  Not even a cesspool!  Just a unique place of Americana and celebration.  May the people and the city, and it's environs soon be re-built!

Quoted: ______________________________ No way!  Not even a cesspool!  Just a unique place of Americana and celebration.  May the people and the city, and it's environs soon be re-built!

Yeah right!  And a gentlemen's club is where you will find gentlemen.  If you believe that then I have a great deal on used cars in NOLA for you.

Quoted: Quoted: ______________________________ No way!  Not even a cesspool!  Just a unique place of Americana and celebration.  May the people and the city, and it's environs soon be re-built! Yeah right!  And a gentlemen's club is where you will find gentlemen.  If you believe that then I have a great deal on used cars in NOLA for you.

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You seem a bit harsh on your brethern Americans--I live 15 miles outside of D.C., and, yes, the District has problems.  I would rather look at and celebrate the good that is there than to point a finger to the problems.  Mush as in the same way there are some seamly neighborhoods around Wrigley Field, though still enjoy going to a Cubs game.  Lighten-up.  

I also don't buy used cars...I'm on my 3rd new 'vette.

Thanks for playing.

p.s.  I didn't say that I necessarily believed it, I was jsut asking the question to solicit discussion.  FWIW

Scuba....I see you have your IM setting turned off. I wanted to ask you something.

Quoted: Scuba....I see you have your IM setting turned off. I wanted to ask you something.

Yeah, he quit accepting IMs because he was getting reamed by certain people who will remain nameless because he wasn't toeing the christian line.  I don't blame him, although it IS annoying when you want to tell him something.  

Quoted: Quoted: I dont know what it was but it was not "The five cities of the plain" (I dont know where the idea of just "Sodom and Gemorah" comes from). In the Torah G-d destroyed the five cities of the plain (known as the sittim plain) not just Soddom and Gemorah. Those cities where destroyed based on the Hebrew concept of the Minyan. (derived from the math that Abraham uses in his negotiations with G-d) This math does not work with 2 cities, and infact the Torah says it was five cities. Having said that, the carnage in New Orleans was not for lack of a Minyan as they have several every day. So no, It was not a modern equivelent. If you dont understand this post, that is fine, Just understand the Torah tells us why the five cites of the plain were destroyed and New Orleans does not fit that criterea. ____________________________________________________ Thanks for the Hebrew Bible explanation of this neshomamench, you did a good job. Though I still don't believe, as others in this thread have espoused, that G-d causes the problems we encounter...even those manifestated by the physical phenomena such as the storm Katrina.  I believe that the unfortunate insurance reference to "Acts of G-d" have re-enforced public and uneducated people to believe this is such.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, but could one of you explain what "Minyan" means?  Thanks!

I don't think God caused it, but when you make him unwelcome, He takes his protection with Him.  In the Old Testament, when Judah and Israel turned towards idolatry, they were beset by all sorts of bad things, ending up in exile, in the case of Judah, and dispersion, in the case of Israel.  The practices they participated in in the worship of their idols were characterized by sexual debauchery - temple prostitution was common.  In Isaiah, when they were about to be invaded by Sennacharib, Hezekiah prayed and God immediately went medieval on the Assyrian army.  He was just waiting for his people to pray, to help.  The fact that he destroyed the Assyrian army indicates that it was not His will that Jerusalem be sacked.  If it were His will for Jerusalem to be sacked, He would not have spared it, would He.   God is good, and does not want evil to befall man.  But man does things that limit what God can do, because God honors our free will.  If we don't want His help, He won't force us to accept it.

Quoted: I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, but could one of you explain what "Minyan" means?  Thanks!

A Minyan (Or minion, it is a transliterated word so spelling may vary)  is what you think it is in a sense.  Such as an expression "Do my bidding my minyans." In other words a minyan is a follower, however the true meaning of that word and its origin is in reference to the Jewish idea of a Minyan. In order for Jews to perform certain rituals and rites, 10 Jewish men 13 and older must be present. Thus the biblical definition of a Minyan is the gathering of 10 Jewish men in order to perform certain religious rituals.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, but could one of you explain what "Minyan" means?  Thanks! A Minyan (Or minion, it is a transliterated word so spelling may vary)  is what you think it is in a sense.  Such as an expression "Do my bidding my minyans." In other words a minyan is a follower, however the true meaning of that word and its origin is in reference to the Jewish idea of a Minyan. In order for Jews to perform certain rituals and rites, 10 Jewish men 13 and older must be present. Thus the biblical definition of a Minyan is the gathering of 10 Jewish men in order to perform certain religious rituals.

Thanks!  Thats's pretty much what I was getting, but I figured better to ask than just guess

IM configured for receipt.  

According to some of you, God should apologize to the people of the original Soddom and Gommorah, and everybody else He has brought judgment upon.

I'm not a prophet, so I can't say whether or not it was His hand saying, "Enough!"  Maybe He just removed His hand that had protected the city for so long, like He did with Job (although for different reasons).  I don't know.

However, there is a principle that is constant throughout history.

Sowing and reaping.  Actions beget consequences.

NO not only was a place of sin (Yes- the S word!), but they revelled in it and took pride in it.  From the debauchery of these festivals like Southern Decadence and Mardi Gras, to their government.  I lived in Louisiana for four years and one thing I saw was that they take PRIDE in this stuff.  Heck, government corruption is winked at.  Huey Long is a HERO to the people of Louisiana.  When I was there the governor was indicted on 52 counts of corruption, fraud, etc.  He was a hero to the people.

Sowing and Reaping.

If Yahweh were to wink at the sin, or pretend He doesn't see it, He would cease to be holy and just.  He will not cease being who He is to gratify our humanistic, "tolerant" philosophies.