User Panel
Posted: 8/1/2005 5:10:18 PM EDT
Discussion in another thread got me to thinking. We argue about our particular
belief, but do you think that's what we're supposed to do? Is it worth the endless arguments? If you are a Christian, do you think you have an obligation to convert others? How far does that go? When you are arguing with a brick wall, when do you say enough is enough? When do you just give up, pray for their souls, and move on? |
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I remember a discussion like this a few years ago. IIRC, Garandman had about the best answer I've seen for a question like this.
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when the thread gets moved into the Religion forum
"I can only show you the door Neo; you have to walk through it." |
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No, I do not beleive I am called on to convert anyone.
That's God's business, not mine. I'm called to speak the truth whenever there is an open door (i.e. the individual has not yet made it clear they don't want to hear it anymore) When they do so, I quit. Another persons Participation in the religion forum constitutes "an open door." |
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big +1 there. conversion comes through the Holy Spirit. |
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"Go ye therefore into all the world and make disciples of all men, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have taught you and behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the Earth". Christs last words to us Christians. Says it all.
Some will listen and be saved. Some will not and we are to shake the dust off our shoes and leave them per instructions. We do not do the conversions. God does and we are only His conduits. Some cultivate, some sow, and some reap but all is through God. |
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Our main command given to us by Christ was "to be fishers of men" meaning to spread the word of Christianity.
You should try and reach everyone you can but he also made mention to the fact that it is futile to "cast pearls to swine" |
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+2 God calls on us to tell others His good news -- not necessarily all of us in the same way. It's your responsibility to accept or reject the message, so that means the conversion is between you and Him exclusively. He does not make your eternal fate my responsibility. Whenever you hear otherwise, rest assured that it is simply another lie intended to mislead and confuse you. Do Christians sometimes get a little overzealous? Sure. But don't let that steer you off the path toward the truth. [Edit for clarity] |
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I am called to preach the truth. Acceptance of and obedience to that truth can only be done by the individual's cooperation with The Holy Spirit.
Nevertheless: "4 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10 We are supposed to share the Gospel message with all creatures, as The Master said: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16 If we fail to declare the whole truth of God, then we have blood on our hands: "26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. " Acts 20 I refuse to stand before God with blood on my hands. |
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I am not a religeous person. Not even sure I believe in a "god".
Having said that and being raised Christian, I understand the concepts of "god" and its various versions under the major religions. IMO, if you are a true believer in your god, you should try to convert people. If you believe in an afterlife and it is only reserved for the saved () as a believer you would believe you are doing that person a favor. But, the line should be drawn when the person doesn't wish to be converted. My attitude is someone is always free to make the first effort but if I tell them I am not interested then they are crossing the line if they continue. No means no. |
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About the same moral equivalent of telling someone they are about to step on a snake.
Tell them and if they still decide to step on the snake and get bit, then your concious is clear. There's simply no call to force someone to not go where they don't want to. Simplistic but I think you get the point. Tj |
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I am not obligated to convert those that don't want to be converted.
Sgat1r5 |
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Yup. Same moral equivelent.
Course, if there isn't really a snake THERE then what? Then the person steps down on the mirage and walks on by UNHARMED. Baffling only to the one that BELIEVED in the mirage. And SGTAR is dead on. While I feel someone that believes should wish to pass on their beliefs and would welcome the opportunity to convert someone there isn't an obligation. |
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good way to go about it and totally agree on the implied consent in coming ot this forum ;p |
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No my friend not getting bit doesn't mean there were no snakes only you didn't get bit.
The falicy of everyones opinion on whether there is or isn't is you won't know till you die. Could be a hell of time to find out snakes really exist. If they don't, then it doesn't matter. Tj |
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Tj
You are 100% correct. We won't know until we die. One of South Parks funniest episodes was when they met god. And all the ministers et al were asking who was RIGHT. Per SP the Mormons are. FWIW. |
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I was raised Catholic and I am now Methodist. Both churches taught me that Christ ordered us as Christians to spread the word as part of our faith. I found this article which is titled after a common expression, "The Great Commission". It is a good read and a lot of what it says is indicative of what I was taught.
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Not everybody Paul preached to accepted the message of the Gospel.
His part was to present the message. What is done with it then is up to the individual. |
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True conversion to Christianity is a personal experience when the Holy Ghost confirms the truth of the Gospel to a person. I can't convert another person. Only the Holy Ghost can do that.
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+1 Christians can't convert anyone, only God is able to do that. |
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2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Ezek 2:7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they [are] most rebellious. I am sorry that I fall short in these matters. |
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that cracked me up! |
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The bible tells us that we are here for "God's pleasure". We are to commune with the Lord and to haelp save others from their sin and eternal wrath through the blood of Christ Jesus. Plain and simple.
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I have an obligation to present the truth of the Gospel and the hope of salvation through Christ. That is all I can do; because I cannot make anyone "believe."
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Well said. |
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+1 to what they said. |
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Yep, it is a part of being a Christian and doesn't have to lead to "endless discussions", be offensive, get you fired from your job, or be heavy-handed.
You just have to look for opportunities to witness to others as they pop up in daily life, conversations with others, etc. It helps to let folks know that you are human, make mistakes and sin like everybody else, but God makes it better. Ain't nothing better than the promise of sins forgiven and eternal life in heaven! We were asked by Jesus to spread the gospel. That kind of wraps it up. |
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1pe 3:15 kjv
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: always liked this one.i don't try to convert anyone,but i got a answer. |
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... a big + one, agreed! ... Truth is based on fact - knowledge, based on each individual's human-nature to better understand the interactions of the universe's elements and forces over the time continuum. There is order in the chaos, and it is solid proof that a Supreme (superior to mankind, some call him God) being exists. |
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Should I, or am I supposed to convert others?
If you are so stuborn to deny your medicine, or share it with others, what can be said ? GM |
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... So very true! |
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Matthew chapter 5, versus 14-16 sum it up for me.
14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. I try to demonstrate God's grace and love through my everyday dealings with others. I will share what limited knowledge I have of scripture if it is applicable. As others have said, I can't convert anyone, I can only share Gods word and offer guidance by example. |
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I noticed that you, figuratively, had your rear handed to you on a plate by Eric the other day in the devil thread in GD. I see that, being the big man that you are, you decided to devote some time to trolling the religion forum, in retaliation. What a fine man you must be. |
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I'm actually partly in agreement with this. I've got the best message in the world. I would be wrong NOT to tell people. Just like I would be wrong NOT to save a drowning person, if it was within my power to do so. But then again, were I trying to save a drowning person, and they pull a figurative gun on me, I'm gonna let them drown. That said, I do NOT consider me telling people of my beliefs about Scripture on the internet as forcing anything on anyone. When you see my posts, you can ignore them. Reading my posts ONLY EVER happens because you choose to do so. Responding to my posts will ALWAYS be considered a solicitation of my beliefs. Plan accordingly. |
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... Oh no, I'm not trolling - I'm dead serious ... and just what kind of Christian man are you to be passing judgement on other board members and criticizing their opinions? |
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Passing judgement? Hardly. Again, you have proved that few, if any, outside the Christian faith have any clue as to what 'judgement' is. I have no clue as to the fate of your soul. That I will not judge. Yes, I know what road you're on - but I know you can change. I'm not sure if we should laugh, or cry, when you come in here all self-righteous and troll the religion forum for no better reason than because you couldn't handle losing an arguement the other day. Get over yourself, and get out of this forum until you have something useful to contribute, or a legitimate question. Anybody here would be more than glad to respond to any legitimate question you have. In the meantime, enough with the trolling. edit: As for you being dead serious...i doubt it. But if you are....you're also dead wrong. |
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... Oh, I'm sorry - I didn't realize it was yours I had to seek permission to enter ... It's pretty simple for you, read slowly - If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read or respond to them |
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You're welcomed to do the same, y'know...... |
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What Cavu said - If we live our lives each day the way God wants us to, our lights will be a witness for God. As I've mentioned before, I believe that God speaks to each of our hearts and our response is what matters. I think that sometimes that is through the Holy Spirit without human assistance and sometimes it is through humans. The light we present as our testimony may help others on their paths in life. That testimony is not just words - although words are important. If our lives do not back up our words our lights don't do much to illuminate others' paths. We will be known by the love we show others.
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_____________________________________________ "If our lives do not back up our words our lights don't do much to illuminate others' paths. We will be known by the love we show others" Quite well said overall, and particularly the quote I extracted above. This is a point I've referenced before, that being what we share in common is far greater than what dogmatic discourse would seperate our society. For instance, I'm Jewish, and I perceive you may be Christian. What I enjoyed from your post is what we both believe as practical application of our shared ethos. This forum has trended to be more divisive in context to co-religionists rather than an informed platform for discussion...Thank you. Ed |
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It is possible to participate here, discuss your beliefs and mine, and to be genuinely interested in what you believe, without any desire or 'open door' to convert. |
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Lemme put it this way - I will consider any participation in Religion, and any response to my posts in GD as a solicitation of my beliefs. Lifes too short to have to figger out how much of my opinion people want, so I go with this rule. |
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Fair questions - But again, the purpose is not to "convert" anyone. The Bible actually uses the analogy of spreading seed. Its not that the gardener is trying to force a specific single square inch of ground to grow a plant, its that he's putting out seed for whatever patch of ground has the necessary conditions for supporting plant growth.
Yes, the Bible teaches the unsaved are ALREADY on the way to hell. That's unpopular to say, but I'm not in this to BE popular. The Bible gives some VERY specific evidence to show a man thaty is his natural state of condition (which we can discuss if you like. In lieu of that, read Romans 3)
Yes, the Bible is exclusive in its teachings. Just like treating a gunshot wound to the stomach ALWAYS requires getting any enlodged bullet out of the human body. Somebody might come along and say "Aww, shucks its such a pretty shape....and its really actually very small, can't we just leave it in there?" WHile the analogy is nto perfect, still the BEST means of treating a gunshot wound is to get the bullet out. There's no room for discussion, or opinion, or feelings or tolerance of a bullett in the body. Similarly Scripture allows only one cure for the sin nature we all are born with. |
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First let me say: I will defend to the death yours and my right to have the ability to discuss, form opinion, and present/communicate these beliefs as they are part of our Inalienable rights as Americans.
Grandman, As a JEW, I have strong beliefs as well and feel equally blessed to share those beliefs with you, without the need to feel "popular" or even to look/hope for acceptance. But it is nice to honestly and openly discuss differences, as we can choose to grow from the knowledge or simply agree to dis-agree. hare In an accurate translation of the Jewish Scriptures, the word “Moshiach” is never translated as “Messiah,” but as “anointed.” Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by G-d to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah. These specific criteria are as follows: 1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17) 2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18) 3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12) 4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1) 5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3) 6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9) All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel, Chapter 37:24-28: “And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.” If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah. The Torah teaches that Jews and non-Jews are given different paths to reach G-d. A Jew is obligated to follow the Torah, One group isn’t better than the other, merely different. Therefore, certain beliefs and practices, like eating pork, are permissible for non-Jews but not for Jews. Similarly, the majority of Christian beliefs concerning G-d, salvation and the Messiah do not violate the Noahide covenant for non-Jews, but are absolutely forbidden for Jews. (Cleaner than the gut would analogy...) Yes, this reply will not be met with any popularity, certainly its not PC...but there it is. |
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OK I can go with the open door, if someone is interested in Judiasm, I will talk to them about it. But there is knowing where to draw the line, I lost friends over me not having Jesus, if a Jew I know wants to follow Jesus, it is a hard call, I would want them happy and in harmony.
But for those of us that are not going to budge..it can be annoying to be pressured. |
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I too enjoy the honest and open discussion. While I try to also keep the discussion pleasant, I realize as a human I can get heated, and I understand others may too. I try not to take the internet personally. Basically, I'n saying we can disagree strongly, and still be brothers in arms and friends.
AWESOME read on the creiteria for identifying the Messiah. Where we might find points of disagreement is in HOW those things are fulfilled, but I agree with you - the "anointed One" MUST meet those criteria.
Can you cite for me where the Torah makes this claim?
Screw popularity - its overrated. Any dead fish can float downstream. Only a live one can go against the current. |
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