And I would consider myself "religious".

I am concerned that soon any topic with a spiritual nature or a post advocating a position based on values found in mainstream "religions" will be forced into this area, effectively removed from the common marketplace of ideas.

The fact is, there is no such thing as the distinction between "religious" values and "secular" values.  Everyone is "religious", even those who consider themselves atheist.  They believe that god does not exist, which is a theological position.  And their values stem from that religiously held position just as much as the most ardent Bible thumper's values stem from his.  The atheist/Humanist believes mankind decides what is true, whereas the "religious" person believes God does.  But both are "religious" positions.

The question is not one of religious values versus secular or "neutral" values, but a question of WHOSE religious values, for all values are religious at their root.  And it's not equally dispersed among the world's different religions.  The conflict essentially boils down to those with Judeo-Christian religious beliefs, and those with Humanist religious beliefs

One of the primary tactics in the conflict over values is for the humanist folk to not deal with the merits of the arguments directly at all, but to categorically dismiss the arguments of the "religious" folk as being irrational, emotional, religious mamby-pamby, and not even worthy of consideration.  They stifle any kind of Judeo-Christian expression in the arena of public debate by saying "that's religious, go talk about that in church, but it has no place here, this is the thinking man's arena"
Thus those that have thoughtful and rational arguments from the Judeo-Christian perspective are censored and denied access to the debate even before it begins.  We are shoved over into the corner and told to keep our values to ourselves and can only come out if we limit our debate to the Humanist set of rules.  And sadly the "religious" folks have allowed this to happen.  But it's the Humanist set of rules that need to be debated, and I'm convinced that they can't stand up to scrutiny, which is why they have to resort to censorship in order to "win".

Is that what is happening here?  Is this the corner that Judeo-Christian folks will be pushed into when the Humanists can't compete with the arguments at face value in the general area?

It is essential that people with all views, Christian, Humanist, Muslim, or Whatever be allowed equal access to the arena of public debate, and the public be allowed to choose the superior philosophy.  Consider it the free market of ideas.  It must be free.  A bad argument must not be censored, but countered and proven to be bad by its premise and results.

Another problem is that folks tend to "compartmentalize" their lives.  We take the whole of our lives and separate it into neat, isolated boxes such as "religion", "ethics", "philosophy", "relationships", etc, and the values of one area have no influence on the others.  We go to church one Sunday and say we believe in God and consider ourselves good Christians, but on Monday we see no problem cheating our employer at work, or lying to our spouse.  We saw this most expertly displayed when Bill Clinton claimed that his "private life" and his poor judgment and lack of character there had no influence on his "public life" as a political candidate.  But people can't live that way.  We cannot be consistently compartmentalized.  One view or "box" will dominate all the others.  Clinton's irresponsibility, vow breaking, and selfishness seen in his personal life was exactly how he behaved in his public life.  One cannot compartmentalize "religious" values into a secure little "box" with no influence on any of the others.  People's religious values affect every other area of their lives.

We seem to be trying to "compartmentalize" religion apart from other topics.

So I see the danger of this forum becoming the quarantine for "unapproved" arguments and perpetuating the nonsense that "religious" values have no influence outside their own little "box"

Quoted: It will be okay if we keep the athiest out. But I doubt that will happen. SGat1r5

No, if we're going to have the forum, I welcome them.  

Atheisim is a flawed intellectual position, and we need them and their faulty arguments here to demonstrate that point.

Quoted:  If all you want is a forum so all teh faithful can agree with each other there are plenty of other places to go like http://www.myshoesizeishigherthanmyIQ.com. Many here have lobbied to get a forum for religious discussion and debate because the GD fans apparently could not tollerate religious thread there.  Apparently even the topics annoyed them because no one ever forced them to actually click on or read the content of those topics.

see what I mean?

Quoted: Quoted: I am concerned that soon any topic with a spiritual nature or a post advocating a position based on values found in mainstream "religions" will be forced into this area, effectively removed from the common marketplace of ideas. The common marketplace of ideas is tired of 12 page knock-down drag-out religious fights on weekly (sometimes daily) basis.  Everyone that wants to play the "my god can beat up your god" game can do it in here.  As for general threads moving to the Religion forum, I think that'll be minimal, but probably will start happening when the finer points of scripture start being debated in threads about Supreme Court nominations. I just wish we could select what forums show up in active topics, that way I could filter things out of my daily grind, like AK discussions, the EE, and this forum.

Don't pretend to speak for the common marketplace of ideas when you really mean yourself.  And even if the vast majority of those in the "common marketplace" agree having this forum, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is in their best intrests.  I don't like peas, but they are still good for me.

And your point about the finer points of scripture showing up in threads about SCUS is exactly my point.  To move such threads here is to CENSOR those that value the input of scripture and shove us over in the corner, so the "unreligious" humanists don't have to consider our arguments.  "Oh, that's not important.  That's just the religious whackos going at it again"  Do not try to marginalize those with views that conflict with yours- engage the argument with a better one.  

Will threads that happen to include the finer points of humanist philosophy also get moved here?

in my personal opinion.....

Threads in GD were getting overrun by the religion issues. Almost no thread could go more than 2 pages with pagans bashing christians, or christains wanting to preach to the sinners.

Preaching is fine.... in the proper context of a thread. A discussion of 9mmvs45 doesn't need to end up in a sunday sermon or scientology lesson. Members complain, things get done.

mike

and if they don't let staff know and they will be dealt with.

already happening

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=135&t=373241

Quoted: Quoted: It will be okay if we keep the athiest out. But I doubt that will happen. SGat1r5 Edited<va-gunnut>

<sigh>

I'm still opposed, and what I thought would happen has started happening.

Quoted: I'm still opposed, and what I thought would happen has started happening.

What do you see happening?

Quoted: Quoted: I'm still opposed, and what I thought would happen has started happening. What do you see happening?

Those with judeo-christian values being maginalized.

Atheists interject thier relativistic religious values into any discussion anywhere, but those of the judeo-christian persuasion are told to "save it for the Religion forum"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm still opposed, and what I thought would happen has started happening. What do you see happening? Those with judeo-christian values being maginalized. Atheists interject thier relativistic religious values into any discussion anywhere, but those of the judeo-christian persuasion are told to "save it for the Religion forum"

From what Goatboy has said, religous points of view are welcome in any discussion on the site. If you wish to share your view in a discussion in the GD, and it is a religous based one, that is perfectly fine. Of course those views can be attacked in GD, in a not so polite way.

The only thing this forum is providing is a place for religous views to be discussed without having to be attacked by other members.

Quoted: Other than that, I agree...most of the pure trolling comes from a couple of people who are really just in here TO troll.

Don't worry, the trolls will eventualy be removed. We have already had two troll accounts locked do to their behaviour in here.

Quoted: The religion forum is a good thing. How else are men to discuss our morals and why and how we are to fight. If you can not defend your beliefs maybe you should study more. As for trolls they will be dealt with by being ignored are argued with. I thought the purpose of a forum was to discuss sometimes with much vigor your point of view.

Did you read my original post???  Who said anything about my inability to defend my beliefs?  You completely miss my point.

The issue is censorship, making "religious" people go play in the corner so the rest of them can live their lives free from the influence of ideas they disagree with and cannot defend against. And it's mainly Christian beliefs that get segregated because Christian beliefs do not allow for compromise.
Folks that have a relativistic moral system cannot tolerate anyone telling them they are wrong, especially when the judgement is correct.


"go play in the corner so we can live our lives of lies and not have to face the conviction of truth"