Serious question - I can't find the answer, at least not in the clear form I am looking for.  

I am in a relationship with a lady who has a 7 year old daughter, out of wedlock.  The father left as soon as she broke the news that she was pregnant.  We are doing well together.  I struggle at times thinking of the issue of premarital sex as it relates to the bible, and whether my thinking is correct or not.  I have read the New Testament, and parts of the OT, but still the answer is not clear to me.

My take on the issue - By biblical standards (not by modern law), two people who have sexual relations are married.  If a person leaves the other person he/she makes her/him and adulterer/aldulteress.  This would be a violation of one of God's commandments, regardless of the modern law factor of husband and wife.  

If a person has sexual relations with someone and does not marry that person, then that person is an adulterer.  

There are several versus in the bible which refer to "sexual immorality" but not to premarital sex in the context that I think it is referred to today.

FTR - we have had relations, and I am not looking to be called an aldulterer, nor her and adulteress - I am just trying to find some honest clarification here.  

Thanks

Jesus died for our sins. Just marry her and live you life for Him!

I am certainly no expert, but I think you are a little mixed up.  Some of the things you wrote are incorrect.  The Bible talks about fornication and fornication typically refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other.  Just because two people have sexual relations does not mean they are married, according to the Bible or otherwise.

What is the real question?


anything that contradicts God's intent is sinful.

God's Intent...or our intentions

tons of good stuff

Thanks for those links.

Then, stop having relations until you are married.

Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism go is she was out of wedlock, then she is free to whomever she wants. Adultery, more so the theft of another man's wife or woman, is what the commandment is about.  It is actually more of a property rule, as at that time women were property of their husband. And to be you wife was also merely to move into your tent. It was not a big wedding thing. Often it was a sales transaction with her father. Some goats, a few sheep and she is yours.
Sex is a given, even today, if the relationship is going to be long term, then sex is permissible before marriage.

OP....Are you a Believer?  A Christian




Actually the New Testament never mentions fornication.   The word used most of the time is Pornea or something similar which some times the translators used fornication.   In the Greek pornea means sexual immorality.   Guess that needs to be defined first.

YES.  When I was 19 and struggling to survive due to a disease that I could not beat, I then became a believer.  My prayers were answered, and I was given a second chance at life, thanks to a dear friend and God.  I read the bible, and I try to live by its principals and the teachings of Jesus on a daily basis.  It is a challenge, and I am definately not perfect by any means.

On to the second part of your quote - that is what I am struggling with in finding fornication anywhere in the bible.  I see homosexuality, prostitution, and a few others, but not fornication.  Thats why I began to question what I was reading.  Have I sinned because of the decision we made together.  Has she sinned because of a choice she made 8 years ago?  I am a sinner because we are together and she has a child with no "father?"  Did us coming together make her an adulteress?  

These are just some things that go through my mind.  When things like this happen (things are always going through my mind), I turn to the bible, and can usually find an answer somewhere.  This topic is not so clear.  

Thanks.

1 Corinthians(NIV) 6:12-20



Sexual Immorality

12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord,and the Lord for the body.14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

Read next chapter also

Do you have a pastor you can speak with?  I'm not sure what Christian tradition you are from, so the answers he might give you would vary. But most Churches worth their salt will tell you what I wish someone would have told me straight several years ago:  Having relations outside of marriage is a grave sin that can put you in danger of hell.    Of course, the good news is that Jesus died so that sinners like us can be forgiven and have eternal life.  

So again, I'm not your pastor or anyone's pastor, but if I were in you position, this is what I would think:

-If she or I have never been in a valid marriage, then no adultery has been committed.

-However, sex outside of marriage is a no go, so anytime she or I have done that, a grave sin has been comitted.

-Dating someone who has an illegitimate child, as long as that person is not validly married, is just fine as long as no hanky panky is going on.  

-Make a decision.  Keep doing what I'm doing and try to justify it to myself or make myself right with the Lord (this varies depending on your tradition, for me it would mean go to confession).

Hmm. I confess to being unsure just exactly what the OP is asking, but I am pretty certain he wasn't asking about being with a prostitute.

To who's standard are you using when you read the word prostitute? The world's , or the Bible? You do know English is a evolving language.

ETA** did you read the next chapter.

Sure, I know that. Is the definition of prostitute any different today than 1000 years ago? 2000 years ago?

Nope. This thread is of only mild interest to me. I don't share the OP's concern on sex outside of marriage. I've lain with prostitutes; unmarried women who had no children; and formerly married women who did have children. Since the relations were all consentual, I don't view it as being the least bit immoral.

I have to wonder why you wouldn't just get married and end the questioning/guilt that you're having. Possibly give the child your last name and the stability that comes with that.


I understand what your question is; and I'll say; I dont know, but do know that there's a passage that rebukes the Jews for 'joining themselves to prostitutes". So, while you're saying "well, this makes us married", maybe it does in God's eyes, and that's what matters, but to the child, you're probably still the mother's 'boyfriend" and I think kid's deserve a bit more than that. That's my opinion, 2 cents, all that. It's not my business, but you put the question out there.

So you made a comment on part of a scripture I posted when I wrote read next chapter???
Sex is for the married.
And if you are not concerned about sex outside of marriage, you must not care about sin. If the OP is concerned about sin , and you are not,,, why are you posting? Conflict of interest, if we care about living for the Lord and you do not we understand your views all we have do not is turn on a t.v. or radio.

Isaiah 5:20

(NIV) Woe to those who call evil good    and good evil,who put darkness for light    and light for darkness,who put bitter for sweet    and sweet for bitter.

I have read that scripture quite a bit, and still have a hard time finding an answer there as to wether or not it is a sin.  

I was raised Protestant, primarily going to Babtist church when we did go, however not every weekend.  For the last 8 years, I have worked almost all weekends and attending church is difficult at best.  I have started to make time to go though.  I live in a small community, and the pastor at the only church (Baptist), lives approximately 50 miles away, and travels here on Sundays.  My GF lives 120 miles away and attends a Christian Church, and the two pastors definately have different ways of teaching, that is for sure.  

That is where I have difficulty, when I see one thing at one church, and another at a different church, and even differences in the versions of the bible, NIV (the one I read), vs KJV, etc.  

I think that is a part that I struggle with too.  The topic has come up between us, about marriage, adoption, etc.  We have talked extensively about what to do in the future, and I am at that turning point of being certain I want to ask her to marry me and devote my life to her and ours to Jesus.  

As far as the child, I am sure she is having a difficult time as well, and wants a dad for Christmas.

There is one hurdle before I could even consider adoption, even if we were to marry, and that should be resolved next week. The father of the child has signed parental rights termination papers, and it goes before the judge on the 26th of this month.  That is a long story of no child support, and abandonment on his part.  The mom just wants closure, and would much rather have him completely out of the picture since he has never even been around.  Last time he saw the child was when she was two, and only called on her birthday 2 years ago.  That is all.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I applaud you on even being curious as to what is the right Biblical teaching.

The first thing, as mentioned above, is that Christ died for your sins, once you accept him as Savior, your sins are forgiven.  As a child of God, he will forgive your sins if you ask.  This does not give license to sin but we should want to please God as we would our earthy father.   None of us are perfect.  In God's eyes, any sin is enough to keep us out of His presence.  

From what I have read in the Bible, God wants sex kept between a married man and woman.  I think if we followed the Biblical definition of adultery, it would be much more broad.  Consider what Jesus said in  Matthew 5:28:  
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

I'm not one to be calling others adulterers, this is between you and God, and the Lord knows I have my own problems and am not in a position to be casting judgement on others.  Just seek God and he will lead you to the right answer.   It sounds like your heart is headed in the right direction.

Good job on being a father figure to the little girl, we need more men to step up like that.

I will give you "My" Readers Digest version as "I" see things.    You seem to have witnessed something profound that happened in your life.  At the Cross there was a transfer.   He bore "ALL" of our sins while all His Righteousness was transferred to us.  He also also bore all sickness and disease in the world.  He was made "Sin" for us.   However we do not get to partake of what He offered unless "We" believe and receive it.  Try to look at the Old Testament as Christ concealed.   Look at the things that happened that were shadows of Christ.  After the Law was given on Mt Sinai sacrifices and the spilling of blood had to occur to cover the sins of the Hebrew nation.  If one understands how these sacrifices worked it will be better help you understood what Christ actually accomplished on the Cross.

Under the old covenant the sacrifices of the blood of bulls and lambs covered their sins for a time period.  By covering their sins God does not see their sins anymore...they are covered.  Under the New Covenant, Christ became the sacrificial lamb for us.  The difference between old and new is Christs shed blood is an atonement "Forever" not a set time period.  Also if a believer sins God does not see that sin, just as the Old Covenant sacrifice covered their sins.  If you are a believer God only sees His Son, Jesus has covered your sins.  That my friend is what Grace is all about.

Now as far as sinning.  I believe, when it comes down to the nitty gritty, the only real SIN is to NOT believe in Christ and His sacrifice on the Cross.  The Law of the Old Testament was fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice.  Under the New Covenant of Grace all your sins, past, present and future are completely forgiven.  Again we're talking about Believers here, not the unbelieving.  The Holy Spirit becomes your guide.  If someone points a finger at you and suggests you're gonna burn in hell or God is going to judge you for your sin/sins that is from satan and NOT God.  Under the law it was do good, get good, do bad, get bad.  Under the law our Righteousness came from what we had to do or not do.  Under Grace it's all about what Jesus did for us.  He came to serve.

Take an example in how Jesus dealt with the women who was caught in the very act of adultery.  Under the Law she should have been stoned.  However we see how Jesus handled things.  When it was all said and done He simply told her He didn't condemn her now go and sin no more.   That is where we should be getting our example about sinning.   And what is sin really...missing the mark.  You also have to understand, in the Gospels, many of Jesus teachings didn't apply to us.   As odd as it may seem to many, while Jesus lived He was under the Old Covenant of Law.  Jesus taught PURE law, which is impossible for us to follow.  That is the reason the law was given in the first place.   To bring man to the end of himself.  To understand that we cannot do it ourselves.  We needed a Savior.

So my feeling is that when it comes to some of the questions you asked first you have to try not to condemn yourself and think you are falling out of favor with God.  If God sent his Son to die for the worst of us surely you don't think He will condemn you for something as simple as sex outside of marriage!  The point here is to not beat yourself up for any mistakes you might make.  Just remember how much God Loves you, how much Jesus loves you and how much you want to love them back.

Self righteousness is looking at yourself and how YOU can do or not do things to make yourself right with God.  Grace is all about His Righteousness that was given to you as a gift.   Grace is unearned, unmerited favor.  His Righteousness was imparted to you once you accepted Him into your life.

And if you think God does not do anything for those who have sinned, look at the 12 tribes of Israel.   All the children came from Jacob right?   Do you know how many mothers birthed those same 12 children?   5.  David was God's favorite King.  Do you know the story of Bathsheba?   She ended up being in the lineage of Christ, even after her's and Davids sin.

Let the love of Christ be your guide but DO NOT let anyone condemn you, even yourself, for missing the mark.  The Law kills, but the Spirit gives LIFE!

We all remember what John 3:16 says...."For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."   However many seem to not read the very next verse  3:17....."For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

To seek clarification and understanding. You quoted scripture about the immorality of being with a prostitute, which seemed (and still seems) to me totally inapplicable to the OP's relationship to a woman with whom he appears to be in love.

About whether unmarried sex constitutes a declaration of marriage:

John 4:16  Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

Not smoking gun evidence, but Jesus would seem to imply that sex outside of marriage does not automatically create a marriage.

It continues over in the next chapter.

Verses and chapters were added to the Bible so sometimes in the middle of a though or topic the chapter changes. I just didn't post all of it, because I figured people have Bibles ,and I didn't want to take up to much room.  

1 Corinthians (ESV) 7:1-5

7 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Matthew (ESV) 19:4-6
4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Ephesians (ESV) 5:4-6
4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Hebrews (ESV) 13:4-5
4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. 5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

Hebrews (KJV) 13:4-5
4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Proverbs 6:22 on to the rest of the chapter pertains here.  This is a very dangerous position you have put yourself in.  We have become so normalized to open sex everywhere.  The previous posters have given lots of verses, if you think they dont apply you are splitting very fine hairs.  Sex before marriage had huge repercussions up until the last 60 years.  Man you let your D lead you into a trap, you better right this situation while your conscience is burdened.  And this is comming from a former porn addict.  The truth about sin is: it will always take you further than you wanted to go, keep you longer than you wanted to stay and cost more than you ever thought you would have to pay.

But people have been having sexual relations long before man invented marriage, or there would be no people.

Am I wrong?

L

The institution of marrage was not invented by man, but of God. Once the first woman was removed from man through a DNA type surgical proceedure, it was God at that point initially who proclaimed that they were man and wife. And at that time God said,'' and it is for this reason that a man or woman shall no longer cleave unto their parents but now the two ( and by the institution of Holy Matrimony sanctioned by God) shall now cleave unto each other as one flesh.

It is by this institution (marrage) which is God's standard for men and women to accomplish and be fulfilled as God would have it for us, is not to be put assunder by any other type relationship, that being a sexual relationship between a man and a woman either out of wedlock or extra-marital.

So what are the down-sides to a sexual relationship before marrage?

Well, one thing that could occurr after marrage are trust issues between a married couple for several different reasons. If a child or even several children are brought into the world due to a out of wedlock relationship between two people statistics do show that there are several different issues that can arise for them and their parents.

It is true that God certainly does bless all children no matter what circumstances brought them into this world, that being the child and their biological parents indeed. But, if we examine these relationships a little closer we find that these type of relationships are not in accordance with God's word as far as God's word goes which is everywhere.

In fact, if God is all-knowing throughout all time and in the eternal state, it is God who at least knew that you and your present mate would come into this relationship together and outside of the institution of marrage as this relationship between you both has now come down to.

Am I saying to you that this relationship is wrong?

No.

But, does the christian Bible,or the word of God which is Christ say that it is wrong?

To maybe help you understand a little bit better if you don't know already, the truth of this matter and all other matters and I mean all matters,is the matter of spiritual law and just how these unseen laws, statutes, and precepts affect us all. These laws were instituted and set in place by God according to God making a incomplete man and how to train him or her up correctly through a process of perfecting over time a limitation for some, but an advantage for others, about just what is not perfect and was not meant to be initially.

And this would be you and me and everyone else for a reason.

Most of the major religions in the world do give some sort of accounting or explaination for the reaping and sowing procees, or cause and effect process according to some eastern type religions. Spiritual law was not made and instituted by God in order to inflict punishment as some might think because there are none exempt from this process, but spiritual law was instituted to teach us about God's perfect law, and in some other more extreme cases to correct, but the end result will always be the same, which is suffering some sort of loss and in hindsight for us, is something that has occurred that need not be.

And here is the kicker to all of this sir.

Many people who call themselves christians, and some who are not but believe with the best of intentions that they are, believe that they have the Biblical knowledge and the foresight and practical wisdom to pray or petition God for most of their needs or to recieve some sort of special revelation as answers from God which will help us to deal with all of our problems and issues. It is true that God,that being for our benifit, Jesus Christ, loves us with a love that is very hard for us to fathom and understand as the Bible clearly states that God's love for us does in fact endure forever, which is eternal in its nature and scope of existance.

But many pray or petition amiss because they are at odds with spiritual law, which in fact was set in place to actually protect them and not designed to hinder, or harm, but to actually propel us ahead on all fronts to the goal, which is Christ as He said to us,''Be perfect just as I am ('I AM') perfect''!

One part of spiritual law that I have always found personally very interesting is that as it states in the Bible, the two most important uttered first by John the Baptist before God's earthly ministry down here, and then a short time latter by Jesus Christ Himself which was,''Love the LORD your God with all of your strength and all that is within you'', and just as importantly so,''Love your neighbor as yourself,'' that being God directly letting us know that one cannot be fully accomplished and realized without God becoming first in our lives as God also had Moses script in stone,''You shall have no other gods(or interests which superceed Me) besides Me.

If you love this woman more that you love God, and then call yourself a christian also, spiritual law dictates here which cannot be broken as it is impossible for God's own word to be broken, is that by not following the command of God to marry and to establish a practice of sex outside of marriage on a regular basis with her, God by His word can and will establish a legal type of situation without repentance on your part, to either dimminish your relationship with your mate at one point or possibly through several means possible to adjust.And one of these possibilities is to allow it by the continued breach of spiritual law in this area now vunerable to other degrading influences as a sustained breach of spiritual law never stays the same in most cases with, God in the end as a remedy could summarily terminate yours and her's relationship as it is now altogether by God's own direction according to His own righteousness and then through that activity. And that would be concerning this matter as to what God deems appropriate for all of the parties involved in a prolonged thus unrelenting breach of the spiritual law pertaining to the sexual mis-conduct of persons or any other, will have real and defined consequenses in the physical realm of human activity and awareness.

In this, I speak the truth as God's word and the Holy Spirit dictates to me to have a say about these things, and also through my own past experiances as well as many others that I have personally witnessed over the years that being friends, accuantances,and family alike, and in these things it is my sincere hope that you and this wonderful woman might explore some other options other than the path which the both of you with child are traveling on now, especially if God has called on that One.

May God richly bless and keep you all!

Thanks,

SAE

I'm not sure if your serious, or just making fun of me,
but if you are serious, I would be interested in how you came to know this.

I am a reasonably open minded man, but I have never considered something fact,
just because it was written in an old and revered book.

Sir, I assure you that I am neither making fun or sport of you or about this situation, because these matters here are serious and the outward stakes could be very high do you not agree?

That is, if I am right.

I'm not sure what you consider the stakes to be?

My own take on this (not that you asked); I have been married with one child for almost twenty five years, so far, so good,
but, I would not for one second, dare to have the hubris, the audacity, the arrogance, or pride, to think that the great
creator of all things big and small would focus even a fraction of his attention on mere lowly me and my marriage.

My wife and I got married all those years ago, not because we thought God would disapprove of our love life,
but because we wanted to be more than just boyfriend and girlfriend, we wanted to build a family.

Just my $0.02

.

I don't know, so, my instinct is to be humble before my creator.
I would even be a little uncomfortable thinking of myself worthy of observation (attention).

Perhaps my view of Biblical is a little "wider", to me "Biblical" is a time and place in history, from which
came deeply held beliefs. I would rather hear peoples thoughts and personal philosophies (and what led them there)
than quotes from others.  Don't be so quick to dismiss my claim "I am a reasonably open minded man"

To be humble is to acknowledge and be active in service toward my friend.

Maybe this would be a great topic for you to explore by starting a new thread about?

Thanks,

SAE

Okay, sorry, I'll be quiet now...