Anyone else besides me? I know it's a pretty rare form, but it is the sheeeeeeeeiiiiite for taking down multiple attackers quick!

Traditional Tang Soo Do uses Hapkido as the grappling portion of thier system. I studied the art thru the 80s. Combined with traditional karate, its very useful.

I studied Kyuki-do for several years.

It's primarily Tae-Kwon-Do, with Hopkido and Judo thrown in (pun intended )

Kuk Sool Won here. Frank Garza style....

So at least few takers on this. I'm pretty new to it  (Hap Ki Do purple belt) not much yet I know. My feeling on this and all martial arts is that almost any knowledge is better than none, it is very nice to feel somewhat prepared and have at least a modicum of practiced skills, and the exercise is great, a lot better than running a treadmill like a hamster.

Quoted: So at least few takers on this. I'm pretty new to it  (Hap Ki Do purple belt) not much yet I know. My feeling on this and all martial arts is that almost any knowledge is better than none, it is very nice to feel somewhat prepared and have at least a modicum of practiced skills, and the exercise is great, a lot better than running a treadmill like a hamster.

I've always thought that if you are going to take the effort to work out...learn something while you're doing it.

Practice hard...practice seriously..and focus on your training.

Quoted: Anyone else besides me? I know it's a pretty rare form, but it is the sheeeeeeeeiiiiite for taking down multiple attackers quick!

Buuuuulllll  Shiiitttttttt!!!!

There's my boy Thumper, riding some more bullshido ass...

I have a buddy that is a Hap Ki Do BB. Hate to say it but if I ever get him on the ground, and I would, I'd probably tear him a new martial arts a-hole... He probably would give me far more trouble than an untrained thug on the street, that's for sure. He would probably beat the living shit out of that same thug. He definately has a decent stand-up game and knows some sweeps, throws, joint manipulations etc. He is probably more "at-one" with the universe than I am. Any Brazilian Jiu Jitsu blue belt would "F" him up.

If you've seen a Hap Ki Do demonstration or something, they do a good job of selling the idea that it's great for multiples.

As far as multiple attackers goes, it's a bit of a myth to think you could handle, for any extensive period of time, two or more attackers, with any system.

1) Kick assailant #1's balls as hard as you can.
2) Rock assailant#2 with a Muai Thai or boxing combo.
3) Get the hell out of the area as fast as you can OR proceed to use a firearm.

My fight instructor loves to tell this story. He was at a seminar where he was learning some mixed martial arts tecniques which placed an emphasis on ground fighting, specifically Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Some Ninja Smart Ass in attendance mouthed off "that doesn't work for multiple opponents." The seminar instructor quickly figured out who made the remark and called the guy out in front of the whole class. He asked the guy what system he studied, and the guy answered with the name of some goofy nearly unpronounceable Karate/Kung Fu system.

The instructor immediatley called out three other attendees and ordered them to surround and attack the guy however they wished. They beat his ass. Of course they didn't just beat him senseless, or do any real damage. He was just trying to make a point.

Lot's of systems want you to buy into the idea that their system will impart to you the ability to fight multiple bad guys. It's crap.
A very skilled fighter may be able to take out a couple of guys, if he is very fast and decisive. In other words before there really is a fight.

Example: One of my senior instructors, Bryan Mossey, was in D.C. when two suspicious dudes walked right up to him and got in his face. Bryan immediatey sensed trouble. Being a MuayThai instructor under Master Chai (the man who brought Muay Thai to the US in 1968) he instinctivlely resorted to MT as his first defense (or offense in this case.) The first guy, to his immediate right got a drop elbow to his face, the second to his left, got a snap elbow to his face. Both assailants hit the sidewalk like the sacks of shit that they were. He knocked them both out cold...no shit.

Am I saying that Muay Thai is ideal for multiples? NO. Using your head is your best defense. Bryan, who is also a Golden Gloves boxer, could have used a couple of jab-cross-hook combos, but using his head and relying on his intuition saved his ass from getting jumped.

Study Muay Thai, Boxing and a good ground fighting system(BJJ)...my $.02.
 

I've been kicked in the nuts in a fight, it only made me mad.
Wait till you see what I have for cigolon, the Kung Fu master, tomorrow when I get back too the office.

I have to bounce on my wife tonight... later guys.

Untill then, you Hapkido pussies, start on the bottom of page 5 and read on, the action is here:
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=113&t=383852&page=5

Can't wait!

Have fun with that bouncin' thing...

it's a bit of a myth to think you could handle, for any extensive period of time, two or more attackers, with any system.

i agree completely, if you dont manage to take them out quickly, your prospects of winning drop fast. prolonged fights are not a good thing, especially with more than one person. like you said pubboy, there are tons of instances where two or more people do assault you. and time and time again peole are able to get out of it winning the fight hands down. the ability to know what you're doing is key. the fact is that most people dont have any sort of real training in a martial arts, and at most they have a few classes when they were young and thats about it, really seperates you from them. training enough to know what to do makes it a possibility, albiet it one you want to avoid. your steps to the fight sound about right to me- especially point 3. dont stand around and wait to see what happens. drop them, get the hell out of dodge.

Quoted: i agree completely, if you dont manage to take them out quickly, your prospects of winning drop fast. prolonged fights are not a good thing, especially with more than one person. like you said pubboy, there are tons of instances where two or more people do assault you. and time and time again peole are able to get out of it winning the fight hands down. the ability to know what you're doing is key. the fact is that most people dont have any sort of real training in a martial arts, and at most they have a few classes when they were young and thats about it, really seperates you from them. training enough to know what to do makes it a possibility, albiet it one you want to avoid. your steps to the fight sound about right to me- especially point 3. dont stand around and wait to see what happens. drop them, get the hell out of dodge.

Don't buy this bull-shit, see my reply to cigolon's lies here:
jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=113&t=383852&page=13

Ouch!!

I hate Kung Fu... if anyone hasn't noticed in the other forums.

i've noticed you're very ignorant about it. i get tired of correcting you about things.
"no one uses it" -> incorrect
"its based on theatre" -> incorrect
"there is no application" -> incorrect
"it has no practical strikes" -> incorrect.
and so forth. you just continue to ignore it.

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=113&t=383852&page=13

Some Ninja Smart Ass in attendance mouthed off

I'd be a lot more worried about the guy that kept his mouth shut. Loud mouths
rarely have what it takes to back it up. The guys that do have what it takes
usually don't feel the need to prove it.

Any Brazilian Jiu Jitsu blue belt would "F" him up.

Does that mean that any Brazilian Jiu Jitsu blue belt can "F" anybody
up that's not into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?  And if not, then what was your point?

As far as multiple attackers goes...

I would rather be on my feet than on the ground.

The instructor immediatley called out three other attendees and ordered them to surround and attack the guy however they wished.... Being a MuayThai instructor under Master Chai (the man who brought Muay Thai to the US in 1968) he instinctivlely resorted to MT as his first defense (or offense in this case.) The first guy, to his immediate right got a drop elbow to his face, the second to his left, got a snap elbow to his face. Both assailants hit the sidewalk like the sacks of shit that they were. He knocked them both out cold...no shit.

The only thing these two stories prove is that it is always better to defend yourself
with sudden violent action instead of everyone waiting for a signal. Which leads me
to wonder what your point was and how does that relate to Hapkido?

1) I agree about the loud mouths.


2) I didn't say categorically that ALL BJJ BLUE BELTS can "F" anybody up  that doesn't know BJJ.
    However I will say this. It usually takes a couple years to get a Blue Belt from most Gracie schools.
    My money would be on the BJJ fighter in a fight - mano e mano- than any other system, all other factors being equal.
    I'll I'm saying is a BJJ Blue Belt would more than likely spank a Black Belt of any other system, all things equal.
   
3) If you are talking about multiple attackers, as I've said before, you never want to go to the ground...it's a death wish.
   I have repeatedly stated that you have to know what you are doing both in a stand-up scenario as well as a ground suituation.

     A)    If you are talking about a fight in general I have two points. Most go to the ground, it's a fact.
     B)    If you are up against a guy who knows how to take you down, he'll do it. Statistically, if there's a high probability
            that it's going to the ground anyway, imagine fighting a dude skilled in making it happen and then trained to break your  
            arms, legs joints etc. while being in complete control...

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU "WANT" TO STAND UP AND FIGHT. IF IT GOES DOWNWARD, BE PREPARED TO DEAL WITH IT!!!

If you were paying attention, all I said was that Hapkido isn't good for multiples, as they would have you think. Study a better stand up system and be prepared for the ground scenario. Even if you are jumped by two guys, and you do get knocked down, you'll stand a better chance of surviving with BJJ skills.

One of the test items for first level stripe is to be able to get back up from the ground while defending yourself from kicks etc...

Yes sudden violent action (notice I called it "fast and decisive") is an absolute must. Against any street thug, knowing just about anything will help (as I stated in my first post, by saying my Hapkido BB buddy would destroy a lone thug.)      

Note that the Seminar Ninja was given several seconds to "think up" a defense and still got spanked. If you are jumped out of the blue, you'd better have a good game...just not sure Hapkido is the best game going...that's how it relates...

MOGWAR asked if anyone else thought it was the "sheeeiiite for multiples."  I gues my personal answer is "No, I don't"

Again, learn Muay Thai, Western Boxing and have a ground game, BJJ for example . There is nothing realistic for multiples other than being in good shape, having some realistic training and having your head in the game. "Realistic" being the oppertive term.

There are more "realistic" training systems than Hapkido...

It seems to me that MOGWAR was posting about "Multiples" just as much as he was about "Hapkido." My post is relevent in that respect...appearantly learning how to deal with them is  on his radar, so I thought I'd give him my $.02 on the subject.

What he said.... except that Hapkido is for pussies, as is Kung Fu.

Cancelling subscription to this thread, I can't go through this again... the laughter is pissing my wife off late at night and she needs more attention than I have been giving her.

...all other factors being equal.

No such thing. But I get the point you're making.

It usually takes a couple years to get a Blue Belt..

Which goes along with my philosophy that it's not the system but the practioner and level of experience. And hell, even the most skilled guy can still get knocked out from the cheapest sucker punch.

you have to know what you are doing both in a stand-up scenario as well as a ground suituation.

Roger that.

If you are up against a guy who knows how to take you down, he'll do it.

Unless the guy knows how to prevent it. Please don't tell me that there aren't ways.

Note that the Seminar Ninja was given several seconds to "think up" a defense and still got spanked

And the attackers had several seconds to "think up" an offense. So I still don't know what point that story is trying to make.

MOGWAR asked if anyone else thought it was the "sheeeiiite for multiples." I gues my personal answer is "No, I don't"

Fair enough.

... and she needs more attention than I have been giving her.

Well I guess when the air leaks out of them it's just not the same.

Quoted: Unless the guy knows how to prevent it.

How would you prevent someone trained in Judo, or more importantly, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu from taking you to the ground?

You aren't one of those guys are you... go find a BJJ gym you fuck-wad troll... take a cam-corder, I want to see what happens.

Wait a second... my subscription was canceled, but it didn't work... testing.

Gobbledog, you seem like a reasonable guy:

From everything I've seen, it easier for a good grappler/ground fighter to take the fight to his terms than it is for a good stand-up fighter to avoid the ground. Yes, there are ways to prevent it. All grappling/ground fighting systems have counters to the takedown, from Greco Roman, Judo, Silat, BJJ etc. Systems that seem to focus on stand-up techniques aren't very thorough in this respect. They tend to (falsely) believe that "quick hands and feet" will fend off the takedown of a committed grappler. It just isn't reality.  

Quoted:
Unless the guy knows how to prevent it.  

My point here is, only a grappler truly knows how to prevent it. It's what they train to do! Hapkido guys don't train it!

I noticed it just watching fights in school. Once I got to high school I was always amused to watch dudes from the wrestling team toss thugs around like dolls. Thugs that routinely punched the shit out of everybody else got schooled by them.

Your homework for the weekend: Rent every full contact fight (that alows sweeps/takedowns/throws) you can get your hands on.
Catalog how many stand-up fighters win in full contact bouts against ground fighters. It does occaisionally happen, rarely.

I would have said the same thing 10 years ago. I traind in Wado and Shotokan back in the day.

I'm not trying to dog you or whatever system you study (that's Thumper's job!!!)

Damn, Thumper! These are fellow 'Merican's your talkng to! Let's save that kind of talk for Goat-screwing, Camel-sucking, towel-head cowards!

Quoted: If you are up against a guy who knows how to take you down, he'll do it. Unless the guy knows how to prevent it. Please don't tell me that there aren't ways.

There are lots of ways to prevent it, and a lot of them have nothing to do with BJJ.  Judo has some nice take down counters if your opponent is wearing a gi or heavy clothing (like a jacket).  Probably the most effective takedown counter is the standard wrestling sprawl.

But guess what.  Practicing a wrestling sprawl requires someone trying to take you down.  If you want to get good, you have to practice against someone that's good at take downs.  And of course, there are lots of things the other guy can do after you sprawn to still get you down on the ground.  There is no learn in 5 minute defense to takedowns.

Guess where te best place to learn takedown defense is?

At a grappling school.  That's just the god's honest truth.  Generally speaking, wrestlers are going to be better takedown guys than strict BJJ guys, but you'll usually find some wrestlers at a BJJ school.  Where I trained in Dallas, we very rarely practiced takedowns during class, but there were some guys that were more than happy to throw you down to the mats before or after class.  And let me just say from personal experience, knowing technically how to stop a takedown is a long ways removed from physically stopping a takedown against someone that knows how to execute it cleanly.

In MMA, the only top guy that doesn't have a very strong grappling background is Mirko Filopic (I'm mispelling his name, but he's a kickboxer from Croatia).  Even then, he's had to learn how to defend himself.  Wanderlei Silva, who for a long time was the badass of badasses in muy thai...is a black belt in BJJ.  Fedor = sambo.  Chuck Liddel, the "reknowned striker" is or was a purple belt in BJJ (might be a brown belt by now).  Couture and Hughes...great wrestlers.  Hughes has a very good submission game as well.

Drakich, your are right. Wrestlers rule in the takedown arena. It's fun to roll with wrestlers, who don't have any real ground fighting skils, that immediately go to thier stomachs when you get them on the ground and give 'em a little pressure. Good times indeed.

And you're also right in saying that there are counters, to counters, to counters...It's a chess game. That's the best way I know to describe it.

Several of the guys I used to roll with (or should say get rolled by!) in the Rickson school here in Nashville were also excellent wrestlers in high school/college. In fact two of the guys were both wrestlers and football players at Michigan State. They were walls of meat and muscle. Impossible to do anything to, for me at least. These guys threw me around like a ragdoll. Pretty funny. They were excellent teachers, however.

So in your opinion: Hap Ki Do, good for multiples?

Also, BJJ Blue Belt: Rock most high level practitioners of most other arts in an open fight?

Or better yet, all things being equal, dude that has trained six hours a week, for three months in BJJ versus a guy that has the same amount of training time in Karate/Kung Fu/TKD, or whatever...?

Just curious to see what you think.

I don’t know how to ask the Mod's to come into the other thread, but we definitely need to get the dungeons and dragons/lord of the rings/star wars nerds out of the other thread? jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=113&t=383852&page=13

I really, really, really want to choke both of these kids ‘till they start flopping their arms and legs around, video tape it, and then post a link to the video on every thread they post in afterwards.

Quoted: Anyone else besides me? I know it's a pretty rare form, but it is the sheeeeeeeeiiiiite for taking down multiple attackers quick!

Hap Ki Do, RARE!!!! It seems to me they are everywhere.  Even on the 5 oclock news doing staged multiple attacker crap.  

Quoted: Hap Ki Do, RARE!!!! It seems to me their are everywhere.  Even on the 5 oclock news doing staged multiple attacker crap.

It's a multi-level-marketing scam... task is on these clowns to prove it has a practical use, other than fitness; which they wont be able to.

What's funny too  me, the real MMA fighters with a great record, and all the bad-asses I have known are never ones to toot their own horn, it's always these movie ninja's trying to get the bluff in.

Frank Dux/Segal... that's all I have to say about it.

Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Jet Li, Jackie Chan.....

Quoted: Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Jet Li, Jackie Chan.....

Chuck Norris is a bit different; he learned the error in his ways by going to Brazil and getting completely DOMINATED by the Vale Tudo guys. So much so, that he helped get Rijan and Carlos Machado set up here in the US. In fact, I believe that Chuck Norris is now one of Carlos Machado's brown belts.

Bruce Lee, Jet Li, and Jackie Chan were a bit different and would probably have their heads take off in UFC/Vale Tudo... because, as we all agree.. Kung Fu is completely useless for anything other than making movies.

You know something, looking at this I can’t help but notice that if you take all the Korean BULLSHIT out of this, you have what looks like low-impact, pussified, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu!
www.worldhapkido.com/videoclips.htm

Kind of makes you wonder if it is worthwhile to study at all?
Shouldn't they be spending more time rolling?

Same w/Kung Fu… you’ve got all these retarded stances, but what you really have left is a kick boxer if you remove all of that. I dont understand why they waste time teaching the tiger claw, whatever.

Hmm… call me crazy, but somehow it seems to make the most sense to study kick-boxing/ MT, and BJJ… I wonder if the guys in UFC and Vale Tudo will ever figure this out?

Yes, I think my next victim will be an alleged ‘undefeated’ Hapkido master.
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is king; you guys just don’t know it yet.

Gobble what?

Oh… for a minute there, I thought you wanted to suck me off; sorry, but I’m not into that.

Easy now Thumper!

Yep, Chuck Norris is a believer as well.

To get a Black Belt in Chuck's system, YOU HAVE TO BE A BLUE BELT UNDER THE MACHADOS!

I have lot's of respect for a guy like Norris that at least can acknowledge the value and power of BJJ.

Hey Thump, I watched the hapkido vids...sure takes that BB a while to sink those submissions...he needs to visit a Gracie school to sharpen up his ground fighting skills...

Looks like the Koreans have lots of respect for Judo and Jiu Jitsu...

I have lot's of respect for a guy like Norris that at least can acknowledge the value and power of BJ

whos not doing that?

You are... Mr. "I can say from personal experience that scissor kicks work against multiple, armed opponents!" I still want to see those knuckles!

And yeah, this is what you get for getting your homosexual gaming partner, gobbleafatroot, to thread-chase me; I'll choke both of you suckers out if given the chance!!!

Oh, and if you didn't figure this out already, any fighting art that ends in 'Do' means 'essence removed' or 'art removed'  In Asian cultures, 'Su' means 'art', in fact, when Segal got called out for being a puss... he said he didn't study Aikido, but Akijitsu.

Look it up you fat Kung Fu master, gamer, Star Wars geek!!!

either you are dumb or you can't read- i've always said BJJ is a wonderful martial arts. i've also said that it is a good one for everyone to have practice with. its wonderful for ground fighting. so,
are you stupid or can you not read?

do means "way of".

Fuck off Kung Fu man… unless, of course, you are an expert on Kapkido as well?

You have never done anything but claimed to be an expert on fighting, and paid back-handed compliments to BJJ.

I guess were never going to see those knuckles are we?
Probably because you don’t want us to see your weak, feminine, scar-less 13 year old hands with baby-fat filled gamer fingers that look like little sausages!

And, although you may well know how to get to the 14rth level of Zargon; I don’t think you have ever been in a fight, or trained with someone that knows Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.  

Nobody likes a lair; you claim to have fought multiple attackers, claiming that some faggot form of Kung-Fu is taught to ‘elite’ military and law enforcement. You are a liar, and you know it.

I think you should go practice the krane-kick some more.

so then you obviously can't read and you're an idiot.
along with wing tsun being taught to government agencies as a means to an end, JKD has been done so as well by various instructors. but god himself would not be able to convince you otherwise.

you also dont know what wing tsun is because you keep trying to insult me with forms that aren't part of it. even more amusing is the fact that you dont understand i do mixed martial arts and have studied various styles.

OK, so you are still at it, trying to talk-up Kung Fu… I’m not surprised.
I'd rater be an idiot than a fraud; and that is all Kung Fu is.

If I'm such an idiot, and god himself would not be able to convince me that Kung Fu was bullshit, then why not just try to focus on proving to all of us that you aren't a fat little gamer who sits at home, probably still living w/your parents, and have likely never been in a fight?

You likely read that that your Emin Boztep guy did a seminar with HRT and Recon marines, however since when does this mean that Kung Fu is part of anything they regularly use in combat or arrests?

Have you trained w/any military/LE H2H instructors?
If so, who, how can we verify?

I have trained personally w/a Marine H2H force recon instructor, and I can tell you he is the FIRST to tell you how much of his life he wasted with other ‘arts’.

My brother in law is a patrolman for one of the larger city PD's in Louisiana, and a former marine, he was never taught anything but common sense, striking, and some in-effective Judo takedowns. I asked him if ANYWHERE in his Marine, or LE training, at anytime, did the word 'Wing Tsun' or 'Kung Fu' ever come up… and he said; "all the time, when we were talking about movies!"
When he stopped laughing, he said that I changed his complete mindset about training when I so easily put him down, and made him submit.

He also told me that some of what he learned by rolling w/me easily submitted the guy they had come in to train his PD, as he went to the seminar. The flyer sent around the station said 'Master of combat TKD and advanced grapping tactics.’

These guys are everywhere, they tell girls in bars they were Navy Seals… and you will probably do the same when you grow up. Why do I say this, becuase you are a liar, and you know it.

Burden is still on you to prove Kung Fu is not a theatrical art... who is using it other than actors?
Why do you not show us your knuckles?

Why talk about HRT, I'm talking about you... a fraud, who watched movies and bought it hook, line, and sinker!

why does it always have to come to this?

Cant  we all just get along!

I have said it once and I'll say it again, I have been in the art's non-stop since I was 7 years old. I trained mostly in Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido, both are great styles for distance fighting and some grappling. Now I'm teaching a Mixed Martial system "Taekido" which is a mixture of the two with some ground fighting mixed in.

Just to put this thread back on topic, Hapkido or any self defense or Martial Art is better than just working out in the gym. No one system including BJJ thumper can teach you everthing you need to know on the streets, most BJJ schools teach some form of boxing to go along with the ground fighting.

Hapkido is a good system, but I would recomend throwing in some ground fighting of some sort. In todays world everyone is learning the BJJ thing, the gracies and the UFC have flooded the market and people are buying. BJJ is a very deadly Art and anyone wishing to learn self defense should have knowledge of this style and be able to fight well on the ground. If you cant find a BJJ school near you plain Ju Jitsu is close, not as effective but will do! This advise comes from a school owner who teaches Hapkido but I also throw in the ground fighting just because I know the system lacks it!  

Quoted: Easy now Thumper! Yep, Chuck Norris is a believer as well. To get a Black Belt in Chuck's system, YOU HAVE TO BE A BLUE BELT UNDER THE MACHADOS! I have lot's of respect for a guy like Norris that at least can acknowledge the value and power of BJJ.

I heard that Chuck had made brown...

Yup, looked it up:

http://www.bjj.org/a/ranks.html

Chuck Norris is officially a brown belt in BJJ.

Quoted: Easy now Thumper! Yep, Chuck Norris is a believer as well. To get a Black Belt in Chuck's system, YOU HAVE TO BE A BLUE BELT UNDER THE MACHADOS! I have lot's of respect for a guy like Norris that at least can acknowledge the value and power of BJJ. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uh....I don't know about that.

Chuck Norris originaly trained in Tang Soo Do, then went on to create his own system Chun Kuk Do.

Unless Chuck has created another system, you do NOT have to be a blue belt under the Machados to get your black belt.

My daughter trains in CKD and the Machados do seminars with the CKD community but there is currently no requirement to be ranked in the Machados system to attain higher rank with Chuck's system.

As far as what system is best, it's silly to argue that. It's the fighter that makes the fight, not the system.

But hey, I'm a Judo guy so what the fuck do I know....

I've been a lurker on this site for a very long time, and naturally a late comer to this thread. Since BJJ and MT are being spoken about I feel compelled to jump in! I am the American rep for a very well established MMA/Sub team headed up by Masters Ricardo Murgel and Flavio Behring, from whom I receive all my training directly.

For what it is worth, MMA style teaching is now being taught at least in the Army, officially. I happen to know the NCOIC at the combatives school down at the Benning School for Boys. And he has basically re-written the manual to include the more aggressive aspects of BJJ. Also incorporated is MT, and kali. The days of Wing Tsun being seen as effective have passed, and as a whole, is not being taught amongst the agencies anymore. It just doesn't work well.

As to Chuck Norris, he's certainly taken to BJJ, and if I'm told correctly, MT as well.

Yeah we all know that TeH R3Al GRA99L3 is BJJ and that Judo, Catch as Catch Can, Freestyle, Grecco Roman, Pankratenon, Shoot, and Sambo are all teH Suk.

See actually Heilo created a time machine and went back to Feudal Japan and taught Fuma Ryu Ju Jitsu to the Japanese which developed into Judo and the Ne Waza we love which was taught to Heilo by Kimura. It's all a cycle and from that we know that BJJ is teh r3al Gra99pl3.


A similar process happened in Europe which created catch, greco roman, and free style. But they did not get the full Gracie transmission and thus are teh sux.

I am bustin your balls .308, you are dead on BJJ is good and has better devloped Ne Waza. It has more theory and principle and is more avaliable to the public than Kosen Judo. Which is the Judo that has more Ne Waza.

It comes down to training with fulling resisting partners and aliveness in training. All the arts I mentioned in this post have it. I have yet to see an Hapkido school with it. JMHO.