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Link Posted: 8/1/2017 5:06:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 8/2/2017 5:44:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TonyF:


That's one way of getting around it but for some it's not always possible. There are "50 something" LEO's still on patrol who may not be able to harden themselves like their "20 something" partner can.

Then there are "60 something" civilians who may have ailments or infirmities or just plain old aches and pains.
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Understood (and I agree), but I'll counter that by saying that those two groups--and those in a few other circumstances--are not merely complaining; they have [a] legitimate reason(s) instead of "it's new and dumb," or "well, I didn't get taught that way," or "it's nothing but a marketing scam." I was mainly addressing the "20--and 30 somethings" who are too lazy to train up to a standard instead of lowering a standard for comfort's sake.

For those who can't, there are obviously other techniques that have been used, and that work well enough.
Link Posted: 8/4/2017 8:33:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 12:45:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DefenderAO] [#4]
/dupe
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:01:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
The concept is quite simple.

The further out your support hand is, the easier it is to have precise control over the weapon during target transitions.

The further back your support hand is, the more weight is out front, and the harder it is to make precise movements.

Take a broom stick and hold it with both hands at one end. Now swing it toward an object and try to stop it before it hits.

Now do it with your hands spread out a few feet. You have much more control.

Are there drawbacks? Of course. You fatigue faster for one.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/221816/Capture-264868.JPG
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I run mine similarly.  Support arm out a bit (maybe 9/10" out on my 15" rail), elbow bent a bit, most fingers on the VFG with thumb over bore near light activation switch.  I find it most comfortable for my wrist and balances fatigue vs speed the best.  I can touch the end of my 16" bbl, squared up, with my off hand.  I don't need my arm fully extended to control the weapon, however.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:05:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 3ACR_Scout:
We teach it now. However, the main principle is getting your support hand out as close to the muzzle as possible, as others stated above - not specifically the extreme elbow-above-bore-axis C-clamp that you see in some examples. Now, "as close to the muzzle as possible" is all relative when you're shooting an M4 with a short handguard and traditional front sight assembly. The main thing that I stress is to get away from the hand on the front of the magwell that some guys still seem to gravitate towards, which creates a fulcrum where the rifle is kind of teetering on your closely spaced hands, with a lot of weight out forward of your support hand. To expand on the broomstick analogy, try balancing a broomstick on your two index fingers with them spaced 6 inches apart, and then try it again with your fingers two feet apart. It's really the same principle that Soldiers have been taught for decades when shooting from the prone, unsupported position: you extend your support hand out as far forward as possible to control the wobble of the muzzle.  If you bring it back in closer to the receiver, the muzzle is going to sway around more and be harder to keep on target.

The problem with using "the Army" in any context is that you're talking about a huge organization of half a million Soldiers, but shooting is taught at the company level (usually 50-100 Soldiers at a time). A lot of what determines what is taught is based on the knowledge and experience of the individual instructors. We have advanced marksmanship classes, but those focus mostly on ballistics, developing a training program, and other overall principles of marksmanship and training. Improving individual shooting technique and performance, like physical fitness, comes down to pushing training beyond the basics and the minimum requirements. As a case in point, we recently invited our local FBI SWAT team to give our guys a block of instruction on short range marksmanship (SRM). It gave them an opportunity to practice their instruction techniques and provided our Soldiers with exposure to aspects of shooting that many of them had never seen before. For example, all of the shooting was done at distances of 10 meters or less, so they started the class by explain the concept of sight over bore axis - the separation of about 2 inches between your point of aim and point of impact when shooting at close range. That's not a concept that is normally covered in Army marksmanship because we zero at 25m and engage targets at 50-300m during qualification. They also demonstrated the concept that is the topic of this discussion - moving the support hand as far forward as possible - and encouraged our shooters to use that technique throughout the class. It was a fantastic training opportunity for both our organizations, and something that we plan to continue in the future.

As I alluded to above, equipment also impacts your grip. Sometimes the C-clamp method works well with an M4, because the thumb over the top places it on the activation switch for the PEQ-15, which we normally mount on top (although some guys prefer the tape switch for activation). At the same time, that's a big thing to wrap your hand around - the RAS plus the PEQ on top - so some of us prefer to cup the hand under the front end of the handguard. Some guys put an AFG to the front end of the handguard (that's how the FBI guys had their rifles configured) and grip that, while others like a VFG. I personally prefer a stubby VFG as a handstop. As another poster mentioned, it gets tiring to keep your support hand all the way out there for an extended period of time, so I treat it more as a grip to use when expecting to or actively engaging targets. While patrolling or searching a building for weapon caches, etc., I find it easier to carry a rifle with a VFG that I can use to direct my weapon light or just control the rifle in general. I tried an AFG on one deployment, and it didn't work for me at all for those sorts of tasks. The FBI rifles are equipped with them because, in my opinion, they are focused on short, intense missions that involve actively searching for and preparing to engage hostile targets, such as entering a house to conduct a high risk arrest of a suspect. They won't be using their rifles to patrol for hours at a time like Soldiers do. Anyway, I see the extended support arm grip as something that you transition to as you prepare to engage a target. While using a VFG as a handstop at the low ready during a patrol, I can easily transition to bring the rifle up and pushing my support hand forward a couple inches.

One last point: as someone else mentioned, a big part of shooting is physical conditioning. None of this is something you can just do comfortably for an extended period of time. I noticed that while shooting my personal rifle with a civilian friend at the range, he quickly got tired from holding the rifle out and engaging targets over the course of an hour or so. I'm not an extreme athlete by any stretch, but apparently I'm more used to / conditioned for this sort of thing, and it doesn't wear me out as quickly. If you don't maintain some level of fitness and train on these specific things, it won't be comfortable for you.

Again, all of this takes practice and training, and it won't necessarily be found in an Army manual. We focus on training these techniques at the platoon and company level and then continuing to practice them at the individual, team, and squad level. I'd recommend getting out there and trying these different techniques yourself.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 3ACR_Scout:
Originally Posted By Coax:
Its the new cool bullshit, they never taught that in the Army back when I was in.
Originally Posted By redtruck90:
And, for the record, "the Army doesn't do it" is rarely an excuse to avoid something.
We teach it now. However, the main principle is getting your support hand out as close to the muzzle as possible, as others stated above - not specifically the extreme elbow-above-bore-axis C-clamp that you see in some examples. Now, "as close to the muzzle as possible" is all relative when you're shooting an M4 with a short handguard and traditional front sight assembly. The main thing that I stress is to get away from the hand on the front of the magwell that some guys still seem to gravitate towards, which creates a fulcrum where the rifle is kind of teetering on your closely spaced hands, with a lot of weight out forward of your support hand. To expand on the broomstick analogy, try balancing a broomstick on your two index fingers with them spaced 6 inches apart, and then try it again with your fingers two feet apart. It's really the same principle that Soldiers have been taught for decades when shooting from the prone, unsupported position: you extend your support hand out as far forward as possible to control the wobble of the muzzle.  If you bring it back in closer to the receiver, the muzzle is going to sway around more and be harder to keep on target.

The problem with using "the Army" in any context is that you're talking about a huge organization of half a million Soldiers, but shooting is taught at the company level (usually 50-100 Soldiers at a time). A lot of what determines what is taught is based on the knowledge and experience of the individual instructors. We have advanced marksmanship classes, but those focus mostly on ballistics, developing a training program, and other overall principles of marksmanship and training. Improving individual shooting technique and performance, like physical fitness, comes down to pushing training beyond the basics and the minimum requirements. As a case in point, we recently invited our local FBI SWAT team to give our guys a block of instruction on short range marksmanship (SRM). It gave them an opportunity to practice their instruction techniques and provided our Soldiers with exposure to aspects of shooting that many of them had never seen before. For example, all of the shooting was done at distances of 10 meters or less, so they started the class by explain the concept of sight over bore axis - the separation of about 2 inches between your point of aim and point of impact when shooting at close range. That's not a concept that is normally covered in Army marksmanship because we zero at 25m and engage targets at 50-300m during qualification. They also demonstrated the concept that is the topic of this discussion - moving the support hand as far forward as possible - and encouraged our shooters to use that technique throughout the class. It was a fantastic training opportunity for both our organizations, and something that we plan to continue in the future.

As I alluded to above, equipment also impacts your grip. Sometimes the C-clamp method works well with an M4, because the thumb over the top places it on the activation switch for the PEQ-15, which we normally mount on top (although some guys prefer the tape switch for activation). At the same time, that's a big thing to wrap your hand around - the RAS plus the PEQ on top - so some of us prefer to cup the hand under the front end of the handguard. Some guys put an AFG to the front end of the handguard (that's how the FBI guys had their rifles configured) and grip that, while others like a VFG. I personally prefer a stubby VFG as a handstop. As another poster mentioned, it gets tiring to keep your support hand all the way out there for an extended period of time, so I treat it more as a grip to use when expecting to or actively engaging targets. While patrolling or searching a building for weapon caches, etc., I find it easier to carry a rifle with a VFG that I can use to direct my weapon light or just control the rifle in general. I tried an AFG on one deployment, and it didn't work for me at all for those sorts of tasks. The FBI rifles are equipped with them because, in my opinion, they are focused on short, intense missions that involve actively searching for and preparing to engage hostile targets, such as entering a house to conduct a high risk arrest of a suspect. They won't be using their rifles to patrol for hours at a time like Soldiers do. Anyway, I see the extended support arm grip as something that you transition to as you prepare to engage a target. While using a VFG as a handstop at the low ready during a patrol, I can easily transition to bring the rifle up and pushing my support hand forward a couple inches.

One last point: as someone else mentioned, a big part of shooting is physical conditioning. None of this is something you can just do comfortably for an extended period of time. I noticed that while shooting my personal rifle with a civilian friend at the range, he quickly got tired from holding the rifle out and engaging targets over the course of an hour or so. I'm not an extreme athlete by any stretch, but apparently I'm more used to / conditioned for this sort of thing, and it doesn't wear me out as quickly. If you don't maintain some level of fitness and train on these specific things, it won't be comfortable for you.

Again, all of this takes practice and training, and it won't necessarily be found in an Army manual. We focus on training these techniques at the platoon and company level and then continuing to practice them at the individual, team, and squad level. I'd recommend getting out there and trying these different techniques yourself.
Great post
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:09:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:27:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperSet72:
It's a new thing?

http://i.imgur.com/sNZnf3y.jpg
View Quote
The most dynamic shooters

Link Posted: 9/13/2017 8:21:42 AM EDT
[#9]
I am no expert but I think of it more as driving the rifle other than pointing the rifle.  I try to get my off hand out as far as I can on my trap shotgun for the same reason.  I drive the muzzle of the gun toward the clay instead of just pointing it.   It seems to work for me.
kwg
Link Posted: 9/28/2017 9:39:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ColtRifle] [#10]
I've tried it. Don't like it. Still use a forward pistol grip. I certainly don't care if someone else uses it though. People are different. What works for one may not work for another one.

You aren't wrong to use it and and you aren't wrong not to use it.

There are lots of right ways to do things and a handful of wrong ways to do the same things.
Link Posted: 9/28/2017 9:41:46 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
I've tried it. Don't like it. Still use a forward pistol grip. I certainly don't care if someone else uses it though. People are different. What works for one may not work for another one.

You aren't wrong to use it and and you aren't wrong not to use it.

There are lots of right ways to do things and a handful of wrong ways to do the same things.
View Quote
Link Posted: 9/28/2017 9:49:41 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wildearp:
You look cooler when you are shooting 15 Yard pistol targets with your rifle. 
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Link Posted: 9/28/2017 9:51:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: bcauz3y] [#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mike_Golf:
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Looking good is 90% of being good.
Link Posted: 10/13/2017 5:54:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Stukas87] [#14]
Link Posted: 4/21/2018 2:57:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By echo5whiskey:

For those who can't, there are obviously other techniques that have been used, and that work well enough.
View Quote
People with decades of skill, experience and practice with what is an inferior technique will usually outperform an inexperienced person following a superior one. That applies to almosf any field, wether its fisticuffs or playing a musical instrument.  Theres shooters that Ive met that were never taught what a dominant eye was, and just learned to live with it....is it reasonable to expect them to retrain when theyve been doing it a certain way for 30+ years? Not to say that they cant retrain...but its not a reasonable expectation.

"It's fatiguing"

So? Nobody fights the same way when theyre fatigued as when they are fresh, wether its with rifles or their hands. As with anything, when you apply yourself with practice and work on building your endurance it becomes easier and more natural, but if after a number of hours of clearing houses you just gotta do what you gotta do and if that means a magwell grip then so be it.  Honestly, Ive found that just half an hour of dry fire practice evey other day made a huge difference.

I dont understand whatsoever why this is even still being discussed. This has been going on for 10 years or more now. Theres plenty of videos online and dvds that explain the technique, how to perform it and why it works. This isnt a "tactics" debate, this is something anyone with a rifle and a place to shoot it can give a fair shake and try if they want to. All the arguments for and against have been made over a decade ago  and its fairly clear who actually tried it and who hasnt. If you tried it and it doesnt work for you, at least you actuslly know that for yourself and arent just going by what some guy on the internet said.
Link Posted: 4/21/2018 9:11:27 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Epiphanes:

SNIP

I dont understand whatsoever why this is even still being discussed.
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LOL I thought this was a rehash and I was getting ready to post my old pic of a skeet shooter and Jerry Miculek
Link Posted: 4/21/2018 10:36:48 AM EDT
[#17]
It works for me up close for speed. Not the exaggerated version from Magpul where your deltoids acting like an extra ear muff but similar. Long range off hand I revert to more of a hi-power stance/grip.

In the end its what works for me.
Link Posted: 4/21/2018 11:02:56 AM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 5/2/2018 12:03:47 AM EDT
[#19]
i dont like it, personal preference
Link Posted: 5/2/2018 12:20:21 AM EDT
[#20]
The Costa version? To look cool and attract customers to classes and videos.
Link Posted: 5/10/2018 12:20:15 AM EDT
[#21]
LOL

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SouthernPhantom:
The Costa version? To look cool and attract customers to classes and videos.
View Quote
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 1:48:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Stabilization, just like the guy wires on tall cell/TV/etc towers. Hold it at the back, middle, and end and it will wobble a lot less, and fast shooting is much faster and easier.
Link Posted: 11/19/2018 10:34:00 PM EDT
[#23]
LOL

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mr_h:
its what all the cool kids on the block do now when they go pew-pew'in at the gunner games.

it reminds me of my VW buddies in the 1990's always trying to squeeze the extra 2 HP out of their air cooled, stinger piped, dual carb'ed, 4 banger so they could try and keep up with my '67 Goat.
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Link Posted: 11/19/2018 10:37:59 PM EDT
[#24]
LOL, Costa thought so....

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperSet72:
It's a new thing?

http://i.imgur.com/sNZnf3y.jpg
View Quote
Link Posted: 11/19/2018 10:45:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Currahee] [#25]
How often do we do this?

Getting your hand around the gun further out controls the muzzle better, Issac Newton said so.
Link Posted: 11/23/2018 2:37:06 AM EDT
[#26]
I'm actually tier 5 so I don't do magwell or your stupid c clamp on the hand guard... get on my level and hold it by the suppressor. Even better on a cold day.
Link Posted: 12/25/2018 10:09:11 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By devldogs55:
I'm actually tier 5 so I don't do magwell or your stupid c clamp on the hand guard... get on my level and hold it by the suppressor. Even better on a cold day.
View Quote
Yeah? Well, you're not tier 0 until you do that without the suppressor.
Link Posted: 3/16/2019 8:24:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mr_h:
its what all the cool kids on the block do now when they go pew-pew'in at the gunner games.

it reminds me of my VW buddies in the 1990's always trying to squeeze the extra 2 HP out of their air cooled, stinger piped, dual carb'ed, 4 banger so they could try and keep up with my '67 Goat.
View Quote
No, it's a crock of shit born out of 'classes'.

The best shooters at the AMU don't do it.
Link Posted: 3/22/2019 3:39:53 AM EDT
[#29]
It isnt a new technique, its simply a re-introduced method of using the gun.  And while it can be fatiguing after a given period of time, I prefer to use the most effective technique for the situation I'm in versus using a less effective one because I might get tired
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