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Posted: 5/7/2017 6:45:45 PM EDT
[#1]
That video brings another one to mind that I used to show my students (which I can't seem to find anymore
 ). It shows Jerry Miculek from History's Extreme Marksmen shooting a revolver, reloading, and shooting again--while blindfolded. I used it to prove to my students that it was possible to fire three rounds, reload, and fire three more from their M9s within 10 seconds; but it's also a great way to show outstanding index shooting. If anyone else has better luck finding that vid, please let me know, and I'll edit this post to reflect.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/31/2017 3:16:36 PM EDT
[#2]
We teach point shooting as a standard skill set. All our pistol courses include it.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/12/2017 3:14:35 PM EDT
[#3]
I am just a nobody with no mil or LE experience but I have tried point shooting with my carry guns and I shoot just as accurately at close range, and it is faster. I just keep both eyes open, works well one-handed too.
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Posted: 9/17/2017 11:58:24 PM EDT
[#4]
I was Point shooting the other day for really the first time & I was amazed by how well I was doing, I have three full size AR 500 silhouette targets set up for the EL Presidente & at 20-30 foot I was drilling them as fast as I could, next time I'll time myself.
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Posted: 9/18/2017 11:09:31 AM EDT
[#5]
If you're good at sighted fire just using your natural point of aim will get you good results without sights. But practicing point shooting alone isn't going to be as beneficial.
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Posted: 9/18/2017 2:10:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HeavyMetal]
[#6]
I find when I point shoot (only at bad breath distances) I am still aiming, I am just using the outline of the slide instead of the sights.
In other words, I am seeing what I need to see in order to make the hits at the range in question. |
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Posted: 9/18/2017 5:53:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: echo5whiskey]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal:
In other words, I am seeing what I need to see in order to make the hits at the range in question. |
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Posted: 5/3/2018 7:21:53 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarkHatfield:
OP Look up the website by Roger Phillips Fight Focused Concepts. He teaches things which some people think are not even possible. Any type of serious FOF training will show you the need for this sort of skill set. Bench shooters, match guys that stick their pistols blindly through little windows at matches, etc. are always surprised when they see how easy it is to lose your "magic wand" at close ranges, weapon takeaways aren't not rocket science. As far as distance limitations re: point shooting- depends on the work you put in. I got to where I could get hits at 40 yards with the rifle hip up to about underarm area no focal input on sights when I was practicing point shooting regularly. It definitely has it's place among other skill sets as well. |
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Posted: 5/3/2018 7:52:07 AM EDT
[#9]
I practice point shooting from the hip for close distances like 5 yards to 3 yards.
Something like that |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2018 8:33:38 AM EDT
[#10]
I use to be really good at point shooting. When I was a kid I had a bb gun that I cut the stock off and made it into a pistol. One pump type, cocked the action with my thumb and one pump on the forearm. I could lay down fire on birds etc. I got so good not aiming just waist level pointing. I shot the clothes pins off my moms clothes line.
I would blast them off in fast fluid action. Finally my Dad said quit shooting your Moms clothes pins. He laughed about it. My Dad was a crack shot and I know that made him proud. I took my BB gun knowledge and switched it over to 38 revolvers. Dad always told me if you think long you will miss. Just do it. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/25/2018 9:23:30 PM EDT
[#11]
The USBP course is from 1.5 to 25 yards. Out of a possible 360 I'd average 345-350 points. From the holster and with time limits. Then I removed the sights on the HK P2000 .40 and shot a 280.
No great but some people were shooting 280s with sights! I guess I was trying to show people you could still gets hits out to 25 yards without sights. Not great shots but maybe just enough. Point shooting to 3 yards then using sights afterward even if it was just a flash front sight picture is how I was taught. Anyhoo just my 2 cents. |
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Posted: 12/9/2018 3:07:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wtturn:
Here is how I conceptualize the difference: NPA- Assume your shooting stance and close your eyes, then draw the gun . Where the gun is pointing is your NPA. Index- Focus your eyes on a specific point and draw the gun. The sights should appear in your line of sight in alignment and pointing at the spot at which your eyes are focused. The difference is in the name. NPA is what it is, it's naturally where your sights end up based on the way you're standing. Index is not natural and doesn't matter how you're standing. Index is a trained skill. |
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Posted: 12/10/2018 11:04:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Some 2 cents.
Point shooting is great. I used to have a different opinion (the sights are there for a reason). This just isn't the case at <10yd for me. I no longer use the sights on close targets for body shots. For heads or beer cans, I will. It is truly about the presentation, grip, "driving" the gun, and to a lesser extent stance. I focus on the target and give a good trigger pull. Of course one should be proficient in their trigger pull, and with using the sights first (imo). Then practice their presentation and target transition prior to live fire. I started by presenting to a comfortable height, with the sight plane about level with my chin. I'd check my results by movin my head down to see the sights. Quickly I realized that I was pointing at the target rather well. Practicing that ad nauseum gave me trust in my skills, and the holes in paper proved it. Then couple it with a firm stance and driving the gun, second, third, and subsequent bullets hit in a decent group. I do not expect tiny groups, nor do I expect them exactly centered on the X. I only expect then on the "0" or A zone of an IDPA/USPSA target. My goal is multiple hits in the kill zone as fast as possible. Of course with practice the groups get tighter and better centered as the distances increase. We don't use much paper, so all shooting is done at a minimum of 10 yards on steel. This makes it harder at first, but I think that after a few days at the range it pays off. I'm sure that I'm a better shooter than someone who's using paper at 5 yards practicing to the same time limit or group size. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2019 6:48:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: OttoLoader]
[#14]
Too many learn by rote memorization ( muscle memory)
So they shoot alot of ammo attempting to get results but never really get that good. So point shooting is too hard or unattainable. How to get better. This works for me. Try it you might like it. The individual need to study the mechanics of the particular gun they are using . Experiment with empty gun dryfire. Learn how to hold so barrel axis is perfectly and naturally parallel To pointing index finger. Trigger finger need to be placed so that even with a stock trigger at point of trigger break the muzzle is not moved off axis. Techniques that have the gun in the web of the hand not parallel to pointed index finger, such as isocoles will not work for one hand point shooting. With out that building fundamental few general shooters ever get proficient with point shooting or marksmanship in general. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 7/17/2019 7:19:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Last year we attended a 4 day handgun course at Front Sight. I asked if the range master what their thoughts were on point shooting. His response was "They don't teach that here". No comment after that.
While there, I went to point shooting on the 3 and 5 yd line drills and it helped to reduce my 'holster to rounds on target' time. Went to sights for head shots and anything past the 5yd line. Seems people have different opinions in this thread on what point shooting is. I've always had the understanding it was picking a point on the target and shooting without regards to the sights. You focus on a single point on the target and shoot. Similar to instinctive shooting in archery. In the academy some 30+ years ago, we were taught to focus on the front sight in all scenarios. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/26/2019 4:10:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Britbiker]
[#16]
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Posted: 1/4/2020 12:25:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: M0244]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister:
IPSC and IDPA realism could be enhanced by having people shooting back with live ammo. Not that it would ever happen. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister:
I don't think you can overstate the role of shooting games towards "tactical" training. Change the rules of some popular games, see new things get emphasized in real world training. Shooting from retention, drawing from a seated position, etc. get less attention because they aren't part of any popular games. But old school point shooting doesn't appear to offer benefits to current methods beyond hand to hand range. With enough high speed mid range scenarios in game environments, where the old school point shooting was supposed to excel, maybe it will prove itself. Frankly I doubt it. Some of the IDPA targets are awful close and easy to hit, and nobody seems to see an advantage to not going to full extension and getting a flash sight picture. Perhaps the muscle memory, habit element plays as much as a role as anything else. Not that it would ever happen. The reason these things aren't done most of the time is because they are hard and the majority of shooters pushing 300 lb on their 2nd knee replacement refuse to participate if the "young bucks" continue building those types of stages. |
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Posted: 1/30/2020 7:54:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: King_Mud]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By echo5whiskey:
Just my opinion, but I think this is one of the most instructional statements in this thread so far. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By echo5whiskey:
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
In other words, I am seeing what I need to see in order to make the hits at the range in question. |
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Posted: 4/27/2020 10:22:28 AM EDT
[#19]
COL Applegate settled the question on point vs. sighted shooting long, long ago:
Kill or Get Killed Point shooting is best close in, sighted further out. If you practice up to be a grandmaster, you might be able to hang with point shooters on static targets at 3-7 yards, but the grandmasters, without a red dot, would probably still be at a disadvantage because they are focusing on their sights instead of the threat downrange. I second a vote to check out what Roger Phillips has to say. Point shooting gives a person a fighting chance to succeed if forced to react to an attack at close distance. Point shooting can produce rounds on target from concealed carry in times usually reserved for professional shooters during competitions. Point shooting is a skill that should be explored and learned by any practitioner of concealed carry. It can truly increase your odds of surviving a gunfight. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2020 11:11:30 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: COL Applegate settled the question on point vs. sighted shooting long, long ago: Kill or Get Killed Point shooting is best close in, sighted further out. If you practice up to be a grandmaster, you might be able to hang with point shooters on static targets at 3-7 yards, but the grandmasters, without a red dot, would probably still be at a disadvantage because they are focusing on their sights instead of the threat downrange. I second a vote to check out what Roger Phillips has to say. I'll go head to head with any "point shooter" at any distance you like. This is nonsense and should be treated as such. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 8:58:11 AM EDT
[#21]
During My Navy qualifications we were trained to use our sights on every weapon. 12 years later when I went to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, they taught us to point shoot with the pistol, and start shooting when the pistol is at high ready and push out to the sights. Has something changed in what they are teaching now? We shot from the barricade and weak hand. From the kneeling position and standing.
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Posted: 11/23/2020 10:06:25 AM EDT
[#22]
I was a Mike Rayburn certified Instinctive Point Shooting Instructor. Mainly took it because it was continuing ed. and the dept. paid for it.
 It was a good tool to have in the toolbox, and I taught my cops some of the finer points. It's useful at close contact so you can get some rounds on target until you can get your gun up to your sight line and use the sights like God intended. It was a fun class and we were all making 95% hits on a paper plate at 25ft after a day or so. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 11/23/2020 10:09:23 AM EDT
[#23]
I'm a nobody and my comment will probably show it, but here is my experience.
I've never been a pistol shooter until this year. I bought a G-Sight laser trainer and started watching Mike Glover the TRex dude and other's on YT and discovered I knew nothing at all about how to grip and shoot a handgun. Front sight focus, grip, all wrong. I wore the G Sight out in 2 weeks. They sent another, it's nearly worn out. I practice almost daily, hundreds of shots many days, then follow up weekly with live rounds to cement what I have learned. I have found that my natural point of aim has improved drastically and was shocked at how my hand, sights and targets all align without much input from my brain. Both eyes open, then not really aiming at all, just point the gun toward the target and it's either on or very close. Just my .02. And to whoever here recommended the Safariland ALS midride with Nub mod, thank you. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 10:18:26 AM EDT
[#24]
Point shooting is still taught at very short ranges, but I think it's just proven to be something that doesn't hold up as sighted fire is so fast with training.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 11/23/2020 10:24:07 AM EDT
[#25]
every shooring youve ever done is point shooting practice. period.
when you are terrified in a close gun battle you wont likely register sight picture. but the million reps of sight aligned shooting built into your muscles and nerves will align them for you in that adrenalized point shooting state. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 5:56:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wtturn: I'll go head to head with any "point shooter" at any distance you like. This is nonsense and should be treated as such. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wtturn: Originally Posted By R_S: COL Applegate settled the question on point vs. sighted shooting long, long ago: Kill or Get Killed Point shooting is best close in, sighted further out. If you practice up to be a grandmaster, you might be able to hang with point shooters on static targets at 3-7 yards, but the grandmasters, without a red dot, would probably still be at a disadvantage because they are focusing on their sights instead of the threat downrange. I second a vote to check out what Roger Phillips has to say. I'll go head to head with any "point shooter" at any distance you like. This is nonsense and should be treated as such. Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back: The Complete Textbook of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat describing methods the OSS and US Army used all over the world during WW2 is currently selling for $84 a copy. But I guess you know more that WW2 vets who fought a global conflict behind enemy lines? Can you outshoot this point shooter? In this demonstration, Bryce flips a poker chip, draws his gun and shoots the chip before it hits the ground. How much is your book going for again? |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 6:06:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aimless: Point shooting is still taught at very short ranges, but I think it's just proven to be something that doesn't hold up as sighted fire is so fast with training. IDPA Classifier Course of Fire (may not be current) gives a decent overview of the ranges involved in many "practical" shooting competitions: 7 yards out to 20 yards. Unfortunately for these "practical" shooting competitions, likely distances for defensive shootings are more like 3-to-7 yards. While defensive shootings at 20-to-25 yards may occur a few times out of a hundred, and those sighted distances are worthy of practice, I find many wrong lessons are learned by the full time pistol gamers who only shoot cardboard on a 1-way range. Things are a lot different on the 2-way range at realistic 3-to-7 yard ranges. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 7:11:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Some trainer on instagram made a comment about front sight focus "being boomer" I never really did get a clarification of what he meant by that. Seems like a good guy, I was kind of baffled.
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Posted: 12/13/2020 10:54:13 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aimless: Some trainer on instagram made a comment about front sight focus "being boomer" I never really did get a clarification of what he meant by that. Seems like a good guy, I was kind of baffled. Yeah, pistol sights, Col Cooper, and Jack Weaver all pre-date the boomers, LOL I'm quite good at sighted pistol marksmanship, and recommend learning the fundamentals of sighted shooting before point shooting. COL Applegate was a believer in learning both ways, as many others were/are (Jim Cirillo, Gabe Suarez, Rob Pincus) |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 11:09:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Rob Pincus explains Combat Focus Shooting:
 Combat Focus Shooting |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 11:50:08 PM EDT
[#31]
Pincus?!? No thanks.
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Posted: 3/7/2021 1:28:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: R_S]
[#32]
One of the more modern studies on the effectiveness of point shooting training: In the Line of Fire: Violence Against Law Enforcement
The study was conducted over a 3-year period and addressed 40 distinct cases of serious assaults on law enforcement officers. The cases involved 52 victim officers and 42 offenders. Nine cases involved more than one victim, and three involved more than one offender. Seventy-three percent of the offenders reported that they practiced with a handgun at least once a year. Approximately one-third practiced at least once a month, and 14 percent stated they practiced once a week. Sixty nine percent of those who practiced said practice was informal and occurred at various locations. Among all offenders, 17 percent reported having received weapons training in the military. In each of the 1992 and current study cases, when the officer observed the weapon, the distance between the victim officer and the offender was 5 feet or less. Eighty percent of the offenders in the 1992 study were instinctive shooters, i.e., persons who do not consciously prepare to fire their weapon, but who, by reflex, draw, point, and discharge the weapon. Sixty-seven percent of the assaulters in this study were instinctive shooters. A total of 24 of the 42 offenders interviewed reported having been involved in shooting incidents (either firing upon someone or they themselves being fired upon) prior to the assault under study. Six offenders stated they had been involved in 5 or more previous shooting incidents. Of the 24 offenders who admitted to being involved in prior shooting incidents, 23 stated they were instinctive shooters{96%}. Instinctive shooting can best be described as the pointing and firing of a weapon without consciously aligning the sights. Most of the offenders stated that in street encounters with other armed individuals, there is simply not enough time to aim down the sights of a gun. In yet another case, the offender stated, "There's no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you're dead. You have the instinct or your don't. If you don't, you're in trouble." Seventy-one percent of the victim officers were wearing bullet resistant vests at the time they were assaulted. Essentially, going head to head against armed, armored, and "trained" LEOs: criminal point shooters, who may only practice once per year, won those and other battles on the street. That's because point shooting works the best at the most likely distances. |
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Posted: 3/7/2021 1:42:58 PM EDT
[#33]
When I got my permit all those years ago, the instructor taught point shooting. Seems logical at the distance of most self-defense situations. All it takes is practice. No one's shooting bulleyes.
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Posted: 3/7/2021 2:02:48 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JWnTN: My opinion only: Point shooting is useful for a particular distance and stance and requires a lot of practice. Make changes, such as having to lean around cover, moving, increase the distance or have the target partially behind cover, the practice is for naught. If you know how your gunfight is going to unfold, practice it beforehand and point shooting might work. If you don't have the foresight to know what's going to happen, practice with your sights at anything beyond 3 yards. To be honest, point shooting only works well when you have a LOT of time with the weapon and it goes right out the window if you are using something different. 1911 guys know what I'm alluding to here. Glock guys may not see it the same. Nick |
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Posted: 3/7/2021 2:06:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bohr_Adam]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Commando_Guy: My opinion only. Point shooting is useful for exactly the opposite of what you are putting forth. The "point" of point shooting (see what I did there?) is to get rounds on target as fast as possible when you are in a non-optimum scenario. To be honest, point shooting only works well when you have a LOT of time with the weapon and it goes right out the window if you are using something different. 1911 guys know what I'm alluding to here. Glock guys may not see it the same. Nick Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Commando_Guy: Originally Posted By JWnTN: My opinion only: Point shooting is useful for a particular distance and stance and requires a lot of practice. Make changes, such as having to lean around cover, moving, increase the distance or have the target partially behind cover, the practice is for naught. If you know how your gunfight is going to unfold, practice it beforehand and point shooting might work. If you don't have the foresight to know what's going to happen, practice with your sights at anything beyond 3 yards. To be honest, point shooting only works well when you have a LOT of time with the weapon and it goes right out the window if you are using something different. 1911 guys know what I'm alluding to here. Glock guys may not see it the same. Nick A lot of the problem here boils down to the fact that we have yet to establish a common understanding of what "point shooting" even means. Is it the same as "instinctive shooting?" Is it all unaimed shooting? Does hip shooting count? In four years, we haven't managed to work this out. Much of what has been discussed or shown here is nothing like what Sykes and Fairbairn were teaching. |
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Posted: 3/7/2021 4:01:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Bill Jordan (author of the book "No Second Place Winner") used point shooting to great effect. Jordan's demonstrations would begin with him holding a ping pong ball on the back of his hand over his holster. Jordan would drop the ping pong ball and shoot it before it hit the floor.
Then Jordan would point wooden discs, Neco candy wafers, and finally aspirin tablets. Jordan was a border guard and got into many, MANY gunfights. Jordan is but one of many who taught point shooting. I used to teach it, but it has fallen out of favor to sighted fire. It is my belief that relying on only one type of shooting is a big mistake. Learning sighted fire, unsighted fire (shooting using the top of the firearm only to "aim") and point shooting where the arm is locked in tight to the shooter's side is far better than only learning only one type of shooting. If someone is in the dark, their light is missing or not working, and they can't see their sights, it would still be nice if they knew how to hit something. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/7/2021 8:12:30 PM EDT
[#37]
Point shooting is nothing more than taking advantage of well-practiced muscle memory. Your index. Once trained, it's very easy to get good hits at short distance very quickly.
It is a very important tool in the toolbox for defensive pistol shooting, IMO. This isn't an "either, or" issue. Shooting is a spectrum. Shooting from a retention position at contact distance (again, proper index being vital). Point shooting rapidly at short range, say 7 yards or less. Aimed fire beyond that. Part of training is finding your center at each range of engagement. |
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Posted: 3/7/2021 10:48:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bohr_Adam: A lot of the problem here boils down to the fact that we have yet to establish a common understanding of what "point shooting" even means. Is it the same as "instinctive shooting?" Is is all unaimed shooting? Does hip shooting count? In four years, we haven't managed to work this out. Much of what has been discussed or shown here is nothing like what Sykes and Fairbairn were teaching. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By Commando_Guy: Originally Posted By JWnTN: My opinion only: Point shooting is useful for a particular distance and stance and requires a lot of practice. Make changes, such as having to lean around cover, moving, increase the distance or have the target partially behind cover, the practice is for naught. If you know how your gunfight is going to unfold, practice it beforehand and point shooting might work. If you don't have the foresight to know what's going to happen, practice with your sights at anything beyond 3 yards. To be honest, point shooting only works well when you have a LOT of time with the weapon and it goes right out the window if you are using something different. 1911 guys know what I'm alluding to here. Glock guys may not see it the same. Nick A lot of the problem here boils down to the fact that we have yet to establish a common understanding of what "point shooting" even means. Is it the same as "instinctive shooting?" Is is all unaimed shooting? Does hip shooting count? In four years, we haven't managed to work this out. Much of what has been discussed or shown here is nothing like what Sykes and Fairbairn were teaching. |
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Posted: 8/21/2021 7:10:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: R_S]
[#39]
Ben Stoeger published a new instructional book earlier this year: Practical Shooting Training
Practical Shooting Training is the most detailed and specific training manual for practical shooting that has ever been produced. Benjamin Thomas Stoeger is an American competition shooter and firearms instructor who started competing actively in 2005. He placed first in the 2017 IPSC Handgun World Shoot, second behind Bob Vogel in the 2011 IPSC Handgun World Shoot, and placed third in the 2014 IPSC Handgun World Shoot behind Eric Grauffel and Simon "JJ" Racaza. He is also three time IPSC US Handgun Production Champion (2012, 2013 and 2015), eight time USPSA Handgun Production Champion (2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, and 2019). Practical Shooting Training describes how the authors recommend "target focused" shooting on the move. In real life shootings, how often do people move? Unlike paper targets people are not stapled to fixed position. In real life conflict people move all the time! Isosceles killed the Weaver stance A combination of sighted and target focused shooting (i.e. point shooting) has now killed "Front sight focus only" shooting. So in 2021 the debate is finally over. COL Applegate won. Sorry COL Cooper, your techniques are now about 80 years out of date. COL Applegate was given national level resources to find the answer in WW2, which he did. God Bless you Sir! |
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Posted: 8/21/2021 8:52:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Unless I have a misunderstanding of the two systems point shooting is not the same thing as target focused shooting. The specific difference being that point shooting doesn't utilize sights and target focused shooting absolutely does.
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Posted: 8/21/2021 9:45:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Unless I have a misunderstanding of the two systems point shooting is not the same thing as target focused shooting. The specific difference being that point shooting doesn't utilize sights and target focused shooting absolutely does. You have a misunderstanding. There is sight focused shooting and target focused shooting. Sight focused shooting includes #1 the traditional sights lined up, front sight focus, #2 flash sight picture, #3 front sight only Target focused shooting includes a lot of things: #1 Type II sight picture (with traditional sights lined up, but focus is on the target), #2 Aligning down the top of the slide, #3 Metal and Meat (outline of pistol superimposed on target), #4 driving the gun to a Focal Point (what a lot of people think of as point shooting). Indexing helps build consistency. The defining attribute of these is a instinctive visual focus on the threat. Essentially this is Roger Phillips Point Shooting Progressions concept. You see what you need to see to make the shot. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/17/2021 4:19:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: echo5whiskey]
[#42]
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: A lot of the problem here boils down to the fact that we have yet to establish a common understanding of what "point shooting" even means. Is it the same as "instinctive shooting?" Is it all unaimed shooting? Does hip shooting count? In four years, we haven't managed to work this out. Much of what has been discussed or shown here is nothing like what Sykes and Fairbairn were teaching. Boom. I didn't even know this thread was still alive. (ETA: I forgot the quote) |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/17/2021 4:37:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: echo5whiskey]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back: The Complete Textbook of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat describing methods the OSS and US Army used all over the world during WW2 is currently selling for $84 a copy. But I guess you know more that WW2 vets who fought a global conflict behind enemy lines? Can you outshoot this point shooter? In this demonstration, Bryce flips a poker chip, draws his gun and shoots the chip before it hits the ground. How much is your book going for again? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back: The Complete Textbook of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat describing methods the OSS and US Army used all over the world during WW2 is currently selling for $84 a copy. But I guess you know more that WW2 vets who fought a global conflict behind enemy lines? Can you outshoot this point shooter? In this demonstration, Bryce flips a poker chip, draws his gun and shoots the chip before it hits the ground. How much is your book going for again? 1. You do know that WWII was 75 years ago, right? We've learned a lot since then. In fact, there are all kinds of tactics, techniques, and procedures that are completely outdated, even after WWII. To go further, I will guarantee you that the folks who "fight a global conflict behind enemy lines" right now, do not use the same shooting techniques they did back then. 2. "Of course, there are some who claim that Jelly Bryce would shoot the poker chip as it fell. But this is so unsafe as to be doubtful. No one wants to shoot that close to his own legs, knees and feet." -American Rifleman 3. Man, I completely forgot that you have to be a bestseller in order to be a good instructor. Thanks for reminding me. Originally Posted By R_S: One of the more modern studies on the effectiveness of point shooting training: In the Line of Fire: Violence Against Law Enforcement I wonder how many times they missed, and how many times they didn't actually neutralize the officer. Both are things we cannot afford as the "good guys". |
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Posted: 9/17/2021 5:02:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: aeroworksxp]
[#44]
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Posted: 9/20/2021 7:11:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By echo5whiskey: 1. You do know that WWII was 75 years ago, right? We've learned a lot since then. In fact, there are all kinds of tactics, techniques, and procedures that are completely outdated, even after WWII. To go further, I will guarantee you that the folks who "fight a global conflict behind enemy lines" right now, do not use the same shooting techniques they did back then. 2. "Of course, there are some who claim that Jelly Bryce would shoot the poker chip as it fell. But this is so unsafe as to be doubtful. No one wants to shoot that close to his own legs, knees and feet." -American Rifleman 3. Man, I completely forgot that you have to be a bestseller in order to be a good instructor. Thanks for reminding me. I wonder how many times they missed, and how many times they didn't actually neutralize the officer. Both are things we cannot afford as the "good guys". Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By echo5whiskey: Originally Posted By R_S: Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back: The Complete Textbook of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat describing methods the OSS and US Army used all over the world during WW2 is currently selling for $84 a copy. But I guess you know more that WW2 vets who fought a global conflict behind enemy lines? Can you outshoot this point shooter? In this demonstration, Bryce flips a poker chip, draws his gun and shoots the chip before it hits the ground. How much is your book going for again? 1. You do know that WWII was 75 years ago, right? We've learned a lot since then. In fact, there are all kinds of tactics, techniques, and procedures that are completely outdated, even after WWII. To go further, I will guarantee you that the folks who "fight a global conflict behind enemy lines" right now, do not use the same shooting techniques they did back then. 2. "Of course, there are some who claim that Jelly Bryce would shoot the poker chip as it fell. But this is so unsafe as to be doubtful. No one wants to shoot that close to his own legs, knees and feet." -American Rifleman 3. Man, I completely forgot that you have to be a bestseller in order to be a good instructor. Thanks for reminding me. Originally Posted By R_S: One of the more modern studies on the effectiveness of point shooting training: In the Line of Fire: Violence Against Law Enforcement I wonder how many times they missed, and how many times they didn't actually neutralize the officer. Both are things we cannot afford as the "good guys". You missed my post regarding Ben Stoeger, a world ranked competitive shooter who, 75 years after WW2, uses isosceles position and "target focused shooting" exclusively when moving or against moving targets (movement is exactly what happens in actual gunfights). I didn't see Ben credit COL Applegate, so he probably arrived at the same solution independently. As far as not affording a miss, what I am suggesting is that the techniques you are advocating will result in misses under realistic conditions and knowing both sighted and point shooting is the most reliable way to consistently hit a threat. Or you can go with standard training where LEO's only hit their target ~30% of the time. Law Enforcement Today did an article: From the earliest measurements in the 1970s, a wide range of findings from other professionals examining data have documented that “police departments rarely ever achieve a 50% hit rate,” the authors report. Annual hit-rate averages in large departments such as New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Las Vegas, for example, have typically ranged from 22% to 52% over the decades. “Given the amount of firearms training the police receive, it would be assumed that they hit their target more often than not,” the researchers state. But the truth is that “officers are routinely inaccurate in their use of deadly force.” COL Applegate's extensive WW2 Army & OSS testing and AARs showed that his methods substantially increased the ability of operatives & soldiers to hit threats under realistic conditions. Ben Stoeger's experience and training manual show that the fundamental concepts COL Applegate taught are still sound today. |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 9:37:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: R_S]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Ben Stoeger published a new instructional book earlier this year: Practical Shooting Training Practical Shooting Training describes how the authors recommend "target focused" shooting on the move. In real life shootings, how often do people move? Unlike paper targets people are not stapled to fixed position. In real life conflict people move all the time! Isosceles killed the Weaver stance A combination of sighted and target focused shooting (i.e. point shooting) has now killed "Front sight focus only" shooting. So in 2021 the debate is finally over. COL Applegate won. Sorry COL Cooper, your techniques are now about 80 years out of date. COL Applegate was given national level resources to find the answer in WW2, which he did. God Bless you Sir! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Ben Stoeger published a new instructional book earlier this year: Practical Shooting Training Practical Shooting Training is the most detailed and specific training manual for practical shooting that has ever been produced. Benjamin Thomas Stoeger is an American competition shooter and firearms instructor who started competing actively in 2005. He placed first in the 2017 IPSC Handgun World Shoot, second behind Bob Vogel in the 2011 IPSC Handgun World Shoot, and placed third in the 2014 IPSC Handgun World Shoot behind Eric Grauffel and Simon "JJ" Racaza. He is also three time IPSC US Handgun Production Champion (2012, 2013 and 2015), eight time USPSA Handgun Production Champion (2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, and 2019). Practical Shooting Training describes how the authors recommend "target focused" shooting on the move. In real life shootings, how often do people move? Unlike paper targets people are not stapled to fixed position. In real life conflict people move all the time! Isosceles killed the Weaver stance A combination of sighted and target focused shooting (i.e. point shooting) has now killed "Front sight focus only" shooting. So in 2021 the debate is finally over. COL Applegate won. Sorry COL Cooper, your techniques are now about 80 years out of date. COL Applegate was given national level resources to find the answer in WW2, which he did. God Bless you Sir! Stoeger writes: I have experience chasing and catching big titles. I did not get any of them by being more talented than anyone else. I did get them by outthinking conventional training wisdom and (quite literally) rewriting the book on how to train for practical shooting. ... When there is movement involved, be it you are moving or the target moving, it is necessary to shoot with your vision focused on the target. This is the most missed element of shooting on the move and it cannot be repeated often enough. If you shoot focused on your front sight or dot, you will tend to "drag" hits in the same direction that you are moving. When you are focused on the sights, it becomes exceedingly difficult to "track" the target. When there is movement involved, you do need to continually adjust your aim. This adjustment happens nearly automatically when you focus on the target. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/8/2021 1:39:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Britbiker]
[#47]
Interpretation is everything: If you do not understand or have not been trained in something, then your opinion of it is going to be based on just that "your uneducated opinion" of a subject. The Dunning Kruger Effect is full in force! (If you don't know what that is look it up).
If you ask 100 people about point shooting, you will get 100 versions of what "they think it is" (as per this thread) .....Non of them are wrong, they are all just opinions and we all have one. If your looking to LEARN and not opinionate, then study the subject matter, seek out subject matter experts in the subject and train with them ....with a open mind. Then make your own conclusions. Here is a good place to start: Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back : The Complete Textbook of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat by Rex Applegate and Michael Janich (2019, Trade Paperback) |
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USA
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Posted: 11/24/2021 12:00:26 AM EDT
[#48]
no one wants the liability of cowboy hip firing into a bystander in a self defense scenario. taran butler could not replicate his performance in a high stress life and death situation because of all the factors involved
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Posted: 11/24/2021 2:27:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: R_S]
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carbface: no one wants the liability of cowboy hip firing into a bystander in a self defense scenario. taran butler could not replicate his performance in a high stress life and death situation because of all the factors involved You might want to read up on Bill Jordan, COL Askins, Fairbairn, Sykes, Jim Cirillo, COL Applegate, etc Most of these guys were in more gunfights than you ever will be... and COL Applegate trained something like 10,000 soliders who deployed in combat worldwide during WW2...as well as the OSS who fought behind enemy lines in WW2... I don't know if you know who the SOE or Otto Skorzeny were... but you might want to read up on the fact that a man as legendary as Otto Skorzeny considered the SOE to have the finest special operations training... and they were trained by Fairbairn and Sykes. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/28/2022 2:23:25 AM EDT
[#50]
Point shooting does take a little longer to learn than sighted---- but not because it is harder--- but because it is using completely different tools in terms of human factors. But when you scrape away all the icing off the cake---- its just a few fundamentals ---- get those fundamentals correct and consistently repeatable--- and you all most cant miss. There are things possible using martial techniques---- that most "experts" say is not possible. That is because there is a vast untapped lake of skills that we never push ourselves far enough to venture into. But you never see the destination if you dont make the trip. Point shooting really does work--- and it works well ----if you take the time and effort to understand the mechanics. You can become good enough to shoot faster than you can realistically identify targets. and im not talking about bullets going everywhere. Im talking about 3-4 inch group size at 5 to 7 yards shooting 3 rounds in 3/4 of a sec. ( the tripple tap) In practice --- just to prove to ourselves it could be done---- we shot blindfolded at 5 yards. We shot one round at a time-- each from concealment--- after 10 iterations the group size was about 2 inches. So it was instructive------ that we could actually shoot better when we could not see the sights --- or the target. That was kind of a test to see if your form was consistent. and it was--- at least on that day ! i have since seen Jerry Miculeck do that same thing with a revolver. ( so im not crazy) I have also point -shot out to 20 yards with good effect- though I would say at about 25 feet I would be transitioning to what they now call a sight snapshot (or do they call that a flash picture) I think there is more road to be gone down---- but if you dont believe there is anything at the end--- you wont make the trip ! :-) Tim |
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