User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 3/17/2014 1:23:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VA-gunnut]
Self defense tactics in and around vehicles
by Bcauz3y and TheGrayMan  Introduction America has a long and storied love-affair with the automobile. Is there anything more iconic, or uniquely American, than hopping into your car, and hitting the open road? As a nation, we love to drive. We drive to the store... the mall... to school... to work... and to Grandma’s house for Thanksgiving. Our vehicles are symbols of our individuality, financial status, family situation, or profession, and unless you’re one of those poor pedestrian souls who inhabits a parking-challenged locale like New York City, you probably own at least one automobile. Unfortunately, cars also have a downside; they can make you a target. They can also place you in unfamiliar and difficult positions, should you have to use force or defensive tactics in or around a car, truck, or van. Ever since the days of highwaymen waylaying travelers on horseback, roads and transportation routes have always been magnets for crime. All the way back to Biblical times and the parable of the Good Samaritan, one can find myriad historical accounts of criminals and robbers of various sorts lurking around rest-stops, or just off-the-road, waiting to prey on weary travelers. It’s no less true in the modern age, but with preparation, knowledge, and training, a modern traveler can avoid problems as they go about their business. Situational awareness It can’t be said often enough; paying attention to your surroundings can literally save your life. Many act as if their vehicle is a "cocoon of safety,” in which they don’t have to worry about the world around them. They sit at a stoplight, staring straight ahead or fiddling with their smartphone. They don’t scan for pedestrians approaching their car. They don’t notice the sedan that’s been matching them turn-for-turn as they head home. In short, they’re in a full-on, condition-white fog. Injured/downed motorcyclists can tell you endless stories of clueless drivers. Drivers who acted like the cyclists they struck "came out of nowhere” or the "never saw them,” sometimes using those exact words. Victims of violent crimes will often say the same thing. The human brain learns patterns, and when in familiar surroundings, will "automate” certain actions to free you up to think about other things. Think about the simple, everyday act of driving home from work. When you drive the same route, you’re not thinking of every miniscule adjustment to the wheel, every acceleration or deceleration, or your speed, or your next turn, or that red light up ahead, or that big pothole that’s been there for a year. You’ve driven that route, and done those actions, hundreds of times. You may be aware of what you’re doing, but you’re not focused on the basic mechanics of driving, or the route. You’re thinking about that meeting at work, what you’re going to make for dinner, or your plans for the weekend. In the above example, it’s completely understandable that you might not notice those two men in the car behind you. They saw you at the gas station, and liked the look of your fat wallet, and late-model car. They’re going to follow you home, and see what else they can take. If you notice them, and the fact that they’ve been matching you turn-for-turn for miles, you can save yourself a lot of trouble. That’s not to say you should drive like a convoy escort in the Sunni Triangle, but anything North of condition-white is an improvement. Start by noticing the vehicles around you. An easy way of ‘marking’ a vehicle is to notice easily identifiable features of the vehicle, and occasionally checking your mirrors. Things like headlight patterns at night, distinctive bumper-stickers or custom features. If nothing else, start noticing type/color of vehicle as you drive, which can be done without taking your concentration away from the road. It will help you notice patterns... like the white van that’s been in your rear-view mirror for the last 20 minutes. There are a few simple tasks that you should make a habit of doing in conjunction with your daily driving routine. A cursory check of your mirrors when you come to a traffic signal or four-way-stop will greatly increase your situational awareness.This includes all mirrors, and a peripheral scan of your left and right. You don’t have to study every detail, because you are looking for things that stick out, such as movement, silhouettes, etc. Thugs will often stand at a bus stop or other near-road locations, watching for victims that are oblivious to their surroundings. Doing this simple scan will also allow you to identify a person exiting a vehicle behind you. If you decide to move into condition-white, then you should pull off of the roadway and secure your vehicle. Ideally you would want to select a location that gives you the greatest distance from a hiding place so that you have the most time to react to someone approaching on foot or in a vehicle. If it is at night, choose a location that is well lit, and direct road access should you need to flee. An example of this can be seen in police officers who park out in the middle of an empty parking lot while doing paperwork in their patrol car. The large open area acts as a no-mans-land or buffer-zone that a potential assailant must cross, and gives the officer more time to notice that approaching threat. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/17/2014 1:23:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bcauz3y]
[#1]
Simple choices It’s been said many times, but life is about choices. Self-defense in a vehicle is no different. Parents will tell their children "you made a bad choice,” or a medieval Knight might remark that you "chose poorly,” but smart choices are the soul of risk-avoidance. Going to the gas-station during the day, rather than at 2AM. Washing your car at the house, instead of the scummy self-service car-wash near your office. Not stopping on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere to help a stranded motorist (without carefully eyeballing the situation first). Wearing a "driving holster” instead of a small-of-the-back (or similar) rig, particularly when the latter makes rapid weapon presentation nearly impossible. Choosing to lock your car doors can literally give you the precious seconds required to rapidly exit the area before it turns into a self defense situation. Car windows are very hard to break without a pointed object, and having them rolled up can be a significant barrier. As you can imagine, once the door is opened, or they grab you through the open window, the fight is on. Make the choice not to be on autopilot. Make a thoughtful choice of vehicle type, parking spot, gas station, parking garage, posture, ccw-rig, and how you stand. These choices can all be important when it comes to lowering your risk profile. Defensive driving It begins with watching what’s going on around you, including keeping an eye on the vehicles traveling in front and behind. Hollywood gun battles, where the hero fires with pin-point accuracy out his driver-side window (while driving 60 miles-per-hour down the sidewalk) are popular movie fare, but are laughably unrealistic. Most drivers don’t have to worry about a violent assault while mobile; danger will tend to present itself when you are stopped. Always leave enough room between your vehicle and the one in front of you, such that you can escape to either side by cutting the wheel and accelerating. If you cannot see the tires of the car in front of you, you’re too close. Be especially careful in drive-through lanes and parking lots. Being close to a building or other cars can obscure your peripheral vision and reduce the amount of time you will have to react. When driving on multi-lane highways, stay in the outside lane when possible. This allows you to escape the roadway in an emergency. Unless you have a straight-line route from your home to your office, there are probably two or three different ways you could travel from point A to point B. If you’re a military attache’ in a foreign country, taking different routes to work is second-nature. For the average Joe, that isn’t necessary, though you should have alternate routes in mind should you get the feeling you’re being followed. If you’ve ever encountered a road closure due to construction or a bad accident, you probably already have a few alternate routes. Prepare to utilize them if you think you’ve acquired a tail on your way home. Should you suspect that you are being followed, there are a few ways to confirm, and some defensive measures to take. Make several unexpected turns, square the block, or double-back on your route. If there’s a police station or sheriff’s substation nearby, pull into it, taking care to pull up parallel to the curb (but not flush against it). Position your vehicle such that you cannot be blocked-in, and leave the vehicle in gear. Do NOT pull into a standard parking space, where an attacker can easily block your exit by simply stopping behind you. In lieu of a nearby cop-shop, a parking lot at a large/busy grocery story like a Walmart is a reasonable alternative. Walmart is well-known for having extensive camera coverage of their parking and loading/unloading areas. Very few attackers want to risk a carjacking or vehicle assault right in front of cameras, and dozens of witnesses. In the above circumstance, if you’re stopped and see trouble, immediately drive off, and call the police. Ensure you provide a description of your vehicle, and the suspect vehicle. If you cannot drive away, remove your seatbelt, prepare to exit the vehicle, and start thinking about your next move. It’s less-than-optimal to do this, but your vehicle might be inoperable. You could also find yourself too close to a forward obstacle, or there might be a crowd of innocents you’d be forced to driver over in order to escape. In short, you may not have the option of driving away, and while making an effort to escape is ideal, it’s not always possible. If it’s time to exit your vehicle, you want to do so quickly, whether to run, deploy a personal weapon, gain a position of tactical advantage, or use the vehicle as cover. Dismounting a vehicle quickly takes a bit of practice, but can be readily taught, and without the necessity of a range facility. You can try it a few times in your driveway or garage. You’ll discover that failing to remove your seat belt makes exiting your vehicle impossible, so make removing it a part of your practice. Accidents: Beware of "bump-n-rob” ploys, where a following vehicle rear-ends your vehicle. In those types of incidents, the "bump” is a pretext for robbery or carjacking, and the occupants jump you when you get out to survey the damage. Don’t hesitate to accelerate away if you don’t like the immediate environment. Be wary if you see a group of men exit the vehicle behind you, and immediately hit the gas if there are ANY weapons evident. Another setup is to stage a vehicle break-down on a lonely road, and carjack/rob/assault the person who stops to help. There are a few specific considerations to address when discussing defense in your vehicle. Accessibility Depending on locality and state laws, people stow weapons in all sorts of places in a vehicle. Some like the convenience of the glove-box, others prefer the center-console compartment, while still others like to simply slide it under the seat. Whatever your choice, you should have the weapon as readily-available as local laws will allow. If you’re one of those poor souls in a state that disallows CCW, you may even be required to keep your weapon unloaded/cased in the trunk. In that scenario, you’re essentially unarmed, and escape may be your only realistic option. Concealed-Carriers tend to keep weapons in standard places on the body: on or behind the strong-side hip, small-of-the-back, etc. Pocket-carry has become increasingly popular in recent years with the advent of small-frame .380s and 9mms. Unfortunately, none of these options provide a fast draw from a seated position in a vehicle. You can find yourself sitting on your gun, or it may get tangled in your clothes. Your seat belt strap/buckle can also seriously interfere with your draw-stroke. Cross-draw can be a reasonable alternative. It is often maligned as a carry method for its inferior weapons-retention, and slower speed-of-presentation. However, in a vehicle it may actually be FASTER. It allows the weapon to be discreetly and easily drawn without visibly shifting in your seat, or removing your seat belt (hazardous while moving). If you wear a suit-jacket or overcoat, a shoulder-holster is another viable option. "Appendix,” or Inside-The-Waistband carry (IWB) is also a good option that balances out of car carry with seated access to your weapon. There are safety considerations with this method of carry, and drawing should be practiced regularly. Since you would wear this at your 2 o'clock or 10 o’clock (depending on your strong hand) then when you are seated, it is accessible. Re-holstering with this method takes practice and attention to detail. Contrast those methods to pocket-carry while driving. Anybody who has ever pulled up to the Burger King drive-thru, and had to fish their wallet out of a front pants-pocket will tell you what a pain-in-the-neck it was... and how SLOW the draw from that pocket would be. A gun can also be drawn from a vehicle compartment. In the case of a center-console compartment, it can be easily accessed by simply opening the lid. It’s best to have the weapon secured in some way within that compartment, such that you don’t have to fumble for it amongst a bunch of junk. Some people perma-mount holsters to the inside of their center console compartment to facilitate this. Glove compartments can also be used, but may be less desirable. There’s no way to draw a weapon quickly or discretely from a glove compartment. Their location relative to the driver also requires you to reach all the way over to open them. In larger vehicles and full-size trucks, the driver may even need to unbuckle and slide part-way over the center console to reach the latch. Glove-boxes are also the place where most people store their license/registration, which are required during traffic stops by Law Enforcement Officers. This can lead to awkward questions in some locales, particularly if you fail to inform the officer about the gun before reaching for the required documents. Even if you’re in a state that doesn’t require LE notification about any weapons, opening your glove box to reveal a gun (or even worse, having the gun fall out onto the floor) is a recipe for disaster. If that Officer perceives you as a threat, or thinks you were going for that "hidden” gun, you could easily end up on the receiving end of the Officer’s weapon. Even if he doesn’t shoot, you may be be subjected to loud/angry verbal commands, followed by a forcible vehicle extraction at gunpoint. This is an experience that only a masochist could enjoy. There’s nothing a police officer likes less than finding a gun that you DIDN’T tell him about, so save yourself that trouble. Either disclose it before reaching for the documents, or store your weapon in a different location. Simply sliding a gun under the seat is perhaps the least-desirable method. Not only is it completely insecure (and in some areas frankly illegal), but the constant acceleration/deceleration/cornering of your vehicle virtually guarantees that your gun will slide around, and will NEVER be where you need it, when you need it. Even worse, it could slide rearward where one of your kids or another passenger could reach it. Another common mistake is leaving the weapon in a cup holder or dash pocket near the radio. This allows easy access in ideal circumstances, but leaves the weapon in plain view, and also increases the possibility that the weapon will be knocked loose on a hard stop, or become otherwise difficult to grab when you need it. This sometimes becomes a habit when your method of carry is either uncomfortable or inaccessible when sitting. Your every day carry method should work in standing, sitting, and lying positions. Gunfights don’t stop because you aren’t in a modified weaver stance. If your carry method is functional, then your draw stroke should follow suit... Make sure your draw is consistent. This is absolutely critical. Whatever method you choose, practice gaining access to it and presenting it. Do it slow at first and increase your speed as you become more comfortable. It is recommended that you practice with an unloaded weapon. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/17/2014 1:23:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bcauz3y]
[#2]
In car tactics If surprised/attacked while seated in your vehicle, it helps to understand the limitations of your situation. You may have an attacker approaching from your flank. You’re belted-in, and your mobility is severely limited. You cannot fight effectively while seated. You have a built-in blind spot behind you, as your headrest interferes with your vision, and your seated/belted position requires you to turn your head to see. Your vision may also be obscured by fog-lights/head-lights (part of the reason police officers use the "wall of light” during traffic stops). In short, you’re not in a great position to be fighting for your life, but you may be required to make the best of it. This can be done by practicing pointing your gun (use your pointer finger if you don’t want to draw odd looks in public) at various angles (including over the trunk) from the seated position. Understand your limitations of movement and ability to aim using one or more hands. You don’t want to struggle to find that front sight post at a strange angle while someone is shooting into your car. It’s also helpful to understand what sort of ballistic protection your car might provide, should rounds be exchanged. The engine area of a car provides decent cover, as do the axle areas (though you’ll need to get low to use them). Car doors can stop some rounds, but they are unreliable bullet-stoppers (you may get lucky and have an incoming round hit the power-window mechanism, or some of the heavier steel). Any decent-caliber pistol round has a good chance of penetrating your car door. Rifle rounds, depending on caliber and bullet type, may or may not penetrate your door. With the partial exception of the windshield, side and rear-window auto glass provide no protection. For an attacker approaching from the front of the vehicle, the answer is obvious: hit the gas and run them down. If you cannot, an attacker can be engaged through the windshield, provided you have a pistol of reasonable caliber. Windshields are laminated glass, and they will deflect rounds slightly from the point-of-aim. In the case of shooting from INSIDE the vehicle, your rounds will impact slightly higher than your point-of-aim, so make sure you account for that POI-shift. The reverse is true if shooting through a windshield from the OUTSIDE (rounds will impact slightly lower than the point-of-aim). That POI-shift will eventually go away after enough rounds have chewed a hole through the same area of glass, but hopefully your gunfight will not last that long. If you fire from inside your vehicle, bits of glass WILL come back at you, and it will be EXTREMELY loud. The average 9mm handgun can easily produce noise levels in excess of 150dB in an open area. That Db level is magnified in an enclosed space, and is more than sufficient to cause physical pain and permanent hearing damage. Expect your ears to ring for several days minimum. You should also consider how close your muzzle is to the window. If an attacker is hands-on at your door, and you are in fear for your life, you should shoot from the retention position. There are two reasons for this. Lets say you shoot through your side window and miss or fail to incapacitate the attacker. In this scenario you have removed the only barrier between you and the attacker, and he will have direct access to your weapon. Shooting from the retention position will give you added insurance that you can employ follow up shots. You should not press the muzzle up against the glass, as it may force your pistol out of battery, and prevent it from firing. You’re fighting for your life... the last thing you want is a weapon malfunction. If you prefer not to fire through your windshield (and you have time to open the door), you may wish to open your door to the first "stop,” stay low, and engage through the "V” created by the door-frame and the A-pillar. Those metal structures will provide some cover, and you can steady your aim by leaning into the front pillar. Don’t expose yourself unnecessarily. It might be an unthinking muscle-memory thing, but you’d hate to give your opponent an additional target by automatically putting your left foot out onto the ground as you open the door. Shooting to either flank, or out either the driver or passenger windows is possible with one or two-handed technique. Left-handed shooters are at a distinct disadvantage here, since they have to lean over quite far into the center of the vehicle in order the present the weapon to a threat at the driver-side window. This is a great reason to be well practiced with your sidearm using either hand. In lieu of shooting from the driver’s seat, it’s often better to quickly bail out of the vehicle and put it between you and your attacker, particularly if escape is not a viable option. Mobility is important in a gunfight, and you have ZERO mobility when you’re belted into the driver’s seat. Note: if you are taking fire, or are in immediate life threatening danger, you need to put rounds on the attacker immediately. Ideally you should be running or shooting, not both. If you have an opportunity to exit the vehicle, do so. Once you’re on your feet, you can much more easily maneuver, and prevent your attacker from moving to a position of advantage. By comparison, a person immobile and belted into the driver’s seat is a sitting duck. Fighting around a vehicle When maneuvering around a vehicle during an assault, it is important to understand the difference between cover and concealment. Cover is anything you can put between yourself and an attacker that will stop or deflect incoming fire. Concealment is anything that obstructs an opponent’s view of you, but offers no ballistic protection. A car can be either one, depending on what part of the vehicle you place between yourself and an attacker. For example, tinted windows might be concealment, but they are NOT cover. Areas of a vehicle that will stop or deflect rounds are the engine (along with the suspension components, firewall, etc), and the front/rear axles. Much of the rest of the vehicle cannot be counted on to reliably stop incoming rounds. An exception is vehicle tires, which can provide some protection. If taking cover behind a vehicle, it’s a good idea to stand/crouch right next to the tire. This will make it more difficult for an attacker to fire under the vehicle at your unprotected feet. Never lose the position of your attacker. The worst case scenario is if the attacker can flank your position without you being aware. Near car tactics In most cases, an encounter near your vehicle will be near a store, gas station, or other structure. There are three likely times where the encounter will take place, and some preventative steps you can take to minimize the likelihood of having to escalate. a) Parking, and exiting your vehicle. When you first arrive into a parking lot, you should perform a cursory scan of the area, and make note of any folks on foot, or sitting in an idling car. Especially if they appear out of place. A early model car with 4 occupants idling outside of a high end clothing store would be an example of this. Make sure you back into, or pull through the parking space so that you do not have to back up in order to leave the scene. Before you exit your vehicle (your doors are locked, right?) you should scan your mirrors and periphery. Try to choose a parking spot that is reasonably close to your destination and avoid dimly lit areas. Ideally, you should park under a streetlight if it is at night. Parking decks present a number of challenges, but using common sense will get you a long way. If you’re at a grocery store, consider taking a cart from the corral in the parking lot, and bringing it inside with you. In a pinch, carts can be used as a hasty barrier/distraction, and buy you time to react (see below). b) Exiting the store, on the way to your vehicle. Many criminals like to watch people in the store, to see what they buy, and how much money they have. If they like what they see, they may follow you outside, to do their own "shopping.” Watching your back is critical here, particularly as you get further out into the parking lot, and away from potential assistance. If you have a shopping cart, consider walking alongside the front corner, and pulling it along beside you with your weak hand. This enables you to quickly swing the cart into the path of an attacker, or otherwise use it as a physical barrier. Walking in-front/alongside also keeps your gun hand free, as opposed to tying up both hands pushing the cart in the normal fashion If you find yourself facing multiple attackers, you can restrict their routes of attack by stepping between two closely-parked vehicles and wedging the cart in place behind you. This can make it more difficult to flank you, and allow you to focus on the threat in front. Simply carrying your purchases may seem more convenient, but fighting for your life is difficult with both hands occupied by bags/packages. It it takes more than one hand to carry it, get a cart. c) Entering your vehicle. Particular care should be taken while loading your purchases into your vehicle. You’re especially vulnerable when leaning all the way over into the trunk of your car, or the cargo area of your SUV. Before loading the first package, take a good look around at the surrounding vehicles. Make note of any occupants just sitting in those vehicles, and anybody on foot. Minimize the "head-down-in-the-trunk” time, and periodically rescan as you’re loading up. Once you’re done, close the vehicle up, and take advantage of your taking-the-cart-back-to-the-corral trip to further scan the parking lot. If no problems present themselves, get in your car, and get mobile; do not sit there for ten minutes with your nose in your smartphone. d) Arriving/departing your home. There is a very vulnerable window of time when arriving/departing your home, sitting in your driveway, or entering/exiting your carport/garage. You’re on your home turf, your level of alertness may be lower, you may be focused on what your wife told you to get at the store, or your long day at work. It is a known tactic of some criminals to not merely burglarize a home in the homeowner’s absence, but to ambush the homeowner as he/she leaves/arrives home, and force them inside the home at gunpoint. Once inside, they have free rein to commit all manner of rape/robbery/murder. Hitting the home in this fashion allows them to bypass alarms, obtain PIN numbers, force homeowners to reveal safe combinations, take hostages, use other family members as leverage, etc. When leaving the house, think ahead: consider having a weapon handy as you do so, and get in the habit of putting the garage door up before entering/starting your vehicle. Most modern homes have the automatic garage-door opener button directly next to the exit door. Putting up the door before approaching your parked vehicle will allow you the option of retreating inside your home if trouble should appear. Should your attackers attempt to rush the garage, quickly retreat inside, deadbolt the door, grab an accessible weapon, and dial 911. Your attackers were expecting a sitting duck, belted into his vehicle. Now they are faced with breaching/assaulting a defended structure; a structure with an unknown floorplan, and an unknown number of alert/armed defenders. Even a fully-trained tac-team would balk at that scenario. When arriving home, try to get a good visual of the area around the garage before pulling into the driveway. Have a weapon readily accessible, and look for unfamiliar vehicles parked on the street. Pay particular attention if you see people you’ve never seen before. If you’ve watched your rear-view mirror on the way home, you should already know if a vehicle has followed you into the neighborhood. If it helps your ability to see, or you get a bad feeling, don’t hesitate to square the block, or drive right past your home and back out of the neighborhood. Other measures will also help. Trim back bushes around garage corners, or in places where an attacker could hide, and add motion-detector lights. Approaching your home and seeing those lights activated could provide critical warning that someone has been creeping around. Exterior security cameras can also provide advance warning of trouble. The future: As vehicles evolve, we may get to the point that vehicles drive themselves, but until that time comes, we need to take responsibility for our own safety and security on the road. Forethought, situational awareness, basic tactics, and the appropriate equipment will go a long way towards ameliorating the risks of modern vehicular travel. Stay safe. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2014 1:29:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/30/2014 4:14:18 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pro_Patria_431: Thanks for taking the time to write this up.  |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/1/2014 12:12:55 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Glad to help.
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By Pro_Patria_431:
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
Indeed. Subbed so the GF can read later. |
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 10/9/2014 7:05:26 PM EDT
[#6]
My wife had an incident that I posted in the street robberies thread...she had a shopping cart between herself and the assailant...she told him NO twice...and when June persisted, she reached in her purse for her glock 23...as she said, "his eyes got real big and he decided there was someplace else to be".
My wife is a pretty sharp cookie, but not a long before that incise had she read that thread...and I'm sure at the very least it saved us from dealing with a shooting, and at the most saved her life. Moral of the story...be aware, be resolute, and survive. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2014 7:32:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Great tips.
I would add to the defensive driving section practicing driving in reverse. Most of us only back up to exit our driveways or parking spaces at less than 2 mph. Knowing how to drive while backing at speed can come in handy when turns are impossible, the only egress is to the rear, you are already backing when confronted, or you happen into an "ambush situation." Take some time to find a large empty parking lot, private road or other unobstructed place to practice backing at speed. Make sure the roadway is clear and start off slow and work your way up to 25-35. Driving in reverse is a very different dynamic. The caster effect helps stabilize the car when going forward but de-stabilizes it going in reverse as the rear wheels are stationary and now the front wheels are trailing (Take a shopping cart and push it backwards from the front to get the general idea.) To get started: 1. Sit squarely in your seat 2. Grab the wheel with your left hand at the 12 o'clock position (Top center) 3. Use your other hand to brace your body on the back of the passenger seat/deck, etc. 4. Turn your torso at the hips so you have a clear field of vision out your back window. Don't rely on your mirrors. Steering is very unforgiving in reverse so small, smooth steering wheel inputs will get the job done. While backing to go left, turn left... to turn, right go right. The faster you are going the more sensitive the steering is and the more you will feel the caster. Start slow and increase your speed as you become comfortable. Practice braking in reverse. Do NOT practice around obstacles, other vehicles or buildings. If you get really good you can back into cover positions. Set up some cones or shopping carts to negotiate if you are confident. While this can come in handy in an emergency situation, it is still way too dangerous to do in anything but an emergency. Yes, your brakes still work in reverse and the transmission will be fine as long as you do it sparingly and not try to set a land speed record. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2014 8:08:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bcauz3y]
[#8]
Excellent update Norcal.
We were taught the same, to turn around and face backward. We did burn a few cruiser transmissions out in class though.  We were ragging them pretty hard though. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2014 8:22:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Excellent update Norcal. We were taught the same, to turn around and face backward. We did burn a few cruiser transmissions out in class though. We were ragging them pretty hard though.
You can turn that rear acceleration into a J-turn with a little practice... But I thought that was a little beyond the scope of what we were writing. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2014 8:29:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheGrayMan: You can turn that rear acceleration into a J-turn with a little practice... But I thought that was a little beyond the scope of what we were writing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheGrayMan: Originally Posted By bcauz3y: Excellent update Norcal. We were taught the same, to turn around and face backward. We did burn a few cruiser transmissions out in class though. We were ragging them pretty hard though.You can turn that rear acceleration into a J-turn with a little practice... But I thought that was a little beyond the scope of what we were writing. You know, when I retire the expedition, we should have a practice session before I trade it in. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2014 9:01:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
You know, when I retire the expedition, we should have a practice session before I trade it in. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Excellent update Norcal. We were taught the same, to turn around and face backward. We did burn a few cruiser transmissions out in class though. We were ragging them pretty hard though.
You can turn that rear acceleration into a J-turn with a little practice... But I thought that was a little beyond the scope of what we were writing. You know, when I retire the expedition, we should have a practice session before I trade it in. In! 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/11/2014 9:41:07 AM EDT
[#12]
I'm not tagging this to read later and bumping it. Nope
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/14/2014 5:10:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: rock71]
[#13]
Nice writeup. Of course, good training never hurts either.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/14/2014 5:40:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bcauz3y]
[#14]
Couldn't agree more Rock.
  |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/21/2014 3:45:01 PM EDT
[#15]
I just found this linked in the BurnedoutLEO street robberies thread. Thanks for writing it up and posting it.
Good stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/21/2014 3:51:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Taurus Judge
(I keed, I keed) |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/21/2014 5:16:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Subbed and bumped.
I've wanted to do Intel work my whole life so I've trained myself in most of this but it was a great refresher course and had some nice little tid bits I hadn't thought about. In my daily drive my location is in a unique nexus between offices/schools/shopping areas/etc meaning SOMEBODY is always "following" me. I like to play a little game with myself to figure out which vehicle that might be. Freaks me the hell out how condition white some people I know are (usually women unfortunately), as in honking the horn/flashing headlights/waving doesn't attract their attention when they are going the opposite direction at a stoplight  .
One other thing to add is grey man tactics as far as bumper stickers and visible goodies go. If I was a thief I might not follow the guy with the Glock Perfection sticker home but I sure as shit would knock his car window out first in the Kroger parking lot. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/21/2014 9:01:45 PM EDT
[#18]
A single round, through a virgin windshield.
Look closely. In addition to the windshield actually flexing from the shot/muzzle-blast, you'll see the shower of glass fragments going both directions from that shot (you can see them sprinkling down onto the dash) And talk about LOUD... you won't appreciate it until you do it. I recommend plugs + muffs. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/22/2014 12:19:01 AM EDT
[#19]
Loud? You think that's loud? Wait until the guy in the passenger see is using an RO933.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/22/2014 12:33:52 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Loud? You think that's loud? Wait until the guy in the passenger see is using an RO933. Ouch. 
OP, thank you very much for posting this and thanks for everyone offering info as well. I've been thinking about finding a good defensive driving school (not the one where you just sit in class and listen) as I really think that's something I could get use out of. You drive every day and you never know what could happen, drivers texting or people fiddling with stuff behind their seat can kill you in a heartbeat. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/22/2014 12:34:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Combat_Jack: Loud? You think that's loud? Wait until the guy in the passenger see is using an RO933. |
|
|
|
MO, USA
|
Posted: 11/24/2014 2:18:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheGrayMan:
A single round, through a virgin windshield. Look closely. In addition to the windshield actually flexing from the shot/muzzle-blast, you'll see the shower of glass fragments going both directions from that shot (you can see them sprinkling down onto the dash) And talk about LOUD... you won't appreciate it until you do it. I recommend plugs + muffs.
<a href="http://s251.photobucket.com/user/TGrayman/media/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif.html" target="_blank">http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/TGrayman/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif</a> Upping the ante: In a class at Asymmetric Solutions this summer I was occupying the drivers seat shooting out through the windshield with a 9mm pistol while a another class member was blasting away with a left handed AR15 carbine equipped with a side-vented muzzle brake. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2014 2:26:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By generalist: Upping the ante: In a class at Asymmetric Solutions this summer I was occupying the drivers seat shooting out through the windshield with a 9mm pistol while a another class member was blasting away with a left handed AR15 carbine equipped with a side-vented muzzle brake. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By generalist: Originally Posted By TheGrayMan: A single round, through a virgin windshield. Look closely. In addition to the windshield actually flexing from the shot/muzzle-blast, you'll see the shower of glass fragments going both directions from that shot (you can see them sprinkling down onto the dash) And talk about LOUD... you won't appreciate it until you do it. I recommend plugs + muffs. <a href="http://s251.photobucket.com/user/TGrayman/media/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif.html" target="_blank">http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/TGrayman/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif</a> Upping the ante: In a class at Asymmetric Solutions this summer I was occupying the drivers seat shooting out through the windshield with a 9mm pistol while a another class member was blasting away with a left handed AR15 carbine equipped with a side-vented muzzle brake. I think I would choose a new partner.
 |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2014 2:39:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By generalist:
Upping the ante: In a class at Asymmetric Solutions this summer I was occupying the drivers seat shooting out through the windshield with a 9mm pistol while a another class member was blasting away with a left handed AR15 carbine equipped with a side-vented muzzle brake. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By generalist:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
A single round, through a virgin windshield. Look closely. In addition to the windshield actually flexing from the shot/muzzle-blast, you'll see the shower of glass fragments going both directions from that shot (you can see them sprinkling down onto the dash) And talk about LOUD... you won't appreciate it until you do it. I recommend plugs + muffs.
<a href="http://s251.photobucket.com/user/TGrayman/media/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif.html" target="_blank">http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/TGrayman/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif</a> Upping the ante: In a class at Asymmetric Solutions this summer I was occupying the drivers seat shooting out through the windshield with a 9mm pistol while a another class member was blasting away with a left handed AR15 carbine equipped with a side-vented muzzle brake. WHAT? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2014 2:40:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IronKnight:
The gun Robert de Niro used in Heat?
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IronKnight:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Loud? You think that's loud? Wait until the guy in the passenger see is using an RO933.
Lol yes. You know it was fake because no one bled from their ears. |
|
|
|
MO, USA
|
Posted: 11/24/2014 3:12:27 PM EDT
[#26]
I have been more circumspect since then.
|
|
|
MT, USA
|
Posted: 1/12/2015 1:52:08 PM EDT
[#27]
I got my car boxed in by a runty guy in a parking lot who wanted to fight me. I couldn't back my car up because clueless college kids were all around in the parking lot, drifting to the local deli. The dude's presumably freshly minted ex-GF backed up his truck and I was able to drive away with no further incident. My tacticool mall ninja buddy in the passenger seat TOTALLY froze up, deer in healights....I mean he didn't do shit, lameness all around.
Thanks for the excellent write up. I'm always thinking about this stuff nowadays. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/12/2015 1:53:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ascold_asice742: I got my car boxed in by a runty guy in a parking lot who wanted to fight me. I couldn't back my car up because clueless college kids were all around in the parking lot, drifting to the local deli. The dude's presumably freshly minted ex-GF backed up his truck and I was able to drive away with no further incident. My tacticool mall ninja buddy in the passenger seat TOTALLY froze up, deer in healights....I mean he didn't do shit, lameness all around. Thanks for the excellent write up. I'm always thinking about this stuff nowadays. That's they key man. Stay vigilant.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/12/2015 1:55:56 PM EDT
[#29]
A video from some training last year.
Get a WML on that pistol guys! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2015 1:21:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheGrayMan]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
A video from some training last year. Get a WML on that pistol guys! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpC6TmYhE8M I recognize those voices
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/18/2015 10:57:41 PM EDT
[#31]
Interesting write up and good points. One question I have is if you have no choice but to exit the vehicle with your pistol, what method(s) are you teaching to safely exit without muzzling yourself or others?
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/18/2015 11:15:58 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By oversteer: Interesting write up and good points. One question I have is if you have no choice but to exit the vehicle with your pistol, what method(s) are you teaching to safely exit without muzzling yourself or others? |
|
|
|
AL, USA
|
Posted: 1/26/2015 9:34:00 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By oversteer:
Interesting write up and good points. One question I have is if you have no choice but to exit the vehicle with your pistol, what method(s) are you teaching to safely exit without muzzling yourself or others? Straight finger, muzzle indexed off of flesh (as indicated above). There are some folks that are temple indexing for muzzle management. Either technique, strictly adhered to, works. When we get sloppy, we get dangerous. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2015 11:15:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sabre07: Straight finger, muzzle indexed off of flesh (as indicated above). There are some folks that are temple indexing for muzzle management. Either technique, strictly adhered to, works. When we get sloppy, we get dangerous. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sabre07: Originally Posted By oversteer: Interesting write up and good points. One question I have is if you have no choice but to exit the vehicle with your pistol, what method(s) are you teaching to safely exit without muzzling yourself or others? Straight finger, muzzle indexed off of flesh (as indicated above). There are some folks that are temple indexing for muzzle management. Either technique, strictly adhered to, works. When we get sloppy, we get dangerous. Please add your expertise!
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2015 4:57:36 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
This guy, folks, is my instructor! Welcome sir! Please add your expertise! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By sabre07:
Originally Posted By oversteer:
Interesting write up and good points. One question I have is if you have no choice but to exit the vehicle with your pistol, what method(s) are you teaching to safely exit without muzzling yourself or others? Straight finger, muzzle indexed off of flesh (as indicated above). There are some folks that are temple indexing for muzzle management. Either technique, strictly adhered to, works. When we get sloppy, we get dangerous. Please add your expertise! Seconded. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2015 10:40:52 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sabre07:
Straight finger, muzzle indexed off of flesh (as indicated above). There are some folks that are temple indexing for muzzle management. Either technique, strictly adhered to, works. When we get sloppy, we get dangerous. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sabre07:
Originally Posted By oversteer:
Interesting write up and good points. One question I have is if you have no choice but to exit the vehicle with your pistol, what method(s) are you teaching to safely exit without muzzling yourself or others? Straight finger, muzzle indexed off of flesh (as indicated above). There are some folks that are temple indexing for muzzle management. Either technique, strictly adhered to, works. When we get sloppy, we get dangerous. I was seeing if temple index would come up, partially why I asked the question. I've seen a lot of temple index hate, mostly I think from people who misunderstand it is for this particular situation.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2015 10:45:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By oversteer: I was seeing if temple index would come up, partially why I asked the question. I've seen a lot of temple index hate, mostly I think from people who misunderstand it is for this particular situation.Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By oversteer: Originally Posted By sabre07: Originally Posted By oversteer: Interesting write up and good points. One question I have is if you have no choice but to exit the vehicle with your pistol, what method(s) are you teaching to safely exit without muzzling yourself or others? Straight finger, muzzle indexed off of flesh (as indicated above). There are some folks that are temple indexing for muzzle management. Either technique, strictly adhered to, works. When we get sloppy, we get dangerous. I was seeing if temple index would come up, partially why I asked the question. I've seen a lot of temple index hate, mostly I think from people who misunderstand it is for this particular situation.What is temple index? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2015 10:51:13 PM EDT
[#38]
For exiting a vehicle, temple index is where you bring the pistol high and "index" the slide off the side of your temple (head). You keep it there until you exit the vehicle and can get into your normal high ready, etc. The idea is the pistol is pointed in a safe direction at all times and follows your movements. Doesn't work too well if you've already done a lot a shooting.
There may be other applications to temple index, but all I've seen that makes sense to me is exiting a vehicle. It does look weird, no doubt about it.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2015 10:53:29 PM EDT
[#39]
Nice long before I had guns, 4 thugs in downtown traffic started mouthing my direction cuz I had a hot chick with me. I of course told them to FO. As they attempted to exit the car I damn near amputated their legs with the bumper of the Big OLDSMOBILE. A car is a great weapon. I wont fight 4 against 1, but I will run your motherfucking ass over. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2015 10:59:42 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By oversteer: For exiting a vehicle, temple index is where you bring the pistol high and "index" the slide off the side of your temple (head). You keep it there until you exit the vehicle and can get into your normal high ready, etc. The idea is the pistol is pointed in a safe direction at all times and follows your movements. Doesn't work too well if you've already done a lot a shooting. There may be other applications to temple index, but all I've seen that makes sense to me is exiting a vehicle. It does look weird, no doubt about it.I know Sabre07 was all over our ass about keeping the muzzle off of us and those around us while existing. It's second nature to me now, but it took some drilling.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2015 11:00:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By theelviscerator: Nice long before I had guns, 4 thugs in downtown traffic started mouthing my direction cuz I had a hot chick with me. I of course told them to FO. As they attempted to exit the car I damn near amputated their legs with the bumper of the Big OLDSMOBILE. A car is a great weapon. I wont fight 4 against 1, but I will run your motherfucking ass over. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/7/2015 11:16:48 PM EDT
[#42]
tag
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/20/2015 8:32:56 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheGrayMan:
A single round, through a virgin windshield. Look closely. In addition to the windshield actually flexing from the shot/muzzle-blast, you'll see the shower of glass fragments going both directions from that shot (you can see them sprinkling down onto the dash) And talk about LOUD... you won't appreciate it until you do it. I recommend plugs + muffs.
<a href="http://s251.photobucket.com/user/TGrayman/media/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif.html" target="_blank">http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/TGrayman/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif</a> Just one of the reasons to wear proper eyewear day and night. Even the smallest of corneal abrasions can bring tears to your eyes making it difficult if not impossible to focus. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/20/2015 11:04:29 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sandboxmedic: Just one of the reasons to wear proper eyewear day and night. Even the smallest of corneal abrasions can bring tears to your eyes making it difficult if not impossible to focus. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sandboxmedic: Originally Posted By TheGrayMan: A single round, through a virgin windshield. Look closely. In addition to the windshield actually flexing from the shot/muzzle-blast, you'll see the shower of glass fragments going both directions from that shot (you can see them sprinkling down onto the dash) And talk about LOUD... you won't appreciate it until you do it. I recommend plugs + muffs. <a href="http://s251.photobucket.com/user/TGrayman/media/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif.html" target="_blank">http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/TGrayman/windshieldshot2_zpszytsllql.gif</a> Just one of the reasons to wear proper eyewear day and night. Even the smallest of corneal abrasions can bring tears to your eyes making it difficult if not impossible to focus. Yep. Had a piece of metal crack my eye pro in one of these classes. Scared the ever loving crap out of me. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/24/2015 5:44:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LRRPF52]
[#45]
There are many windshields on the market that will off-gas or disperse particulate matter that is easy to inhale, and can cause serious problems for your lungs on the first shot or burst.
Something to keep in mind when doing shoot through window training. I wish I had some pics to post up, but they are of the type I don't put in the open. I have a lot of video too fighting in and out of vehicles, vehicles on the move, shooting through the A, B, and C pillars of sedans, 360 target engagement from all possible seated positions, mitigating muzzle placement in close confines with friendlies all around, mag changes, trunk monkeys, offensive and defensive vehicle driving, placement of supplemental mags, gear, med kit, E&E bags, signals, simple ways to up-armor vehicles, etc. There are some really good courses that taught this kind of stuff, many of which are in the private sector. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/19/2016 1:08:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mysticookiebear]
[#46]
I agree that one of the key things in general is situational awareness. Anywhere I go my head is on a pivot, I am checking for exits, I see who is walking around and assess how much of a threat everyone is based just off of looks and actions. It doesn't matter who you are, if you are in my general vicinity, I have assessed how much of a threat you are to me. It was very exhausting when I first started doing this, but now it is second nature.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/19/2016 1:13:03 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mysticookiebear:
I agree that one of the key things in general is situational awareness. Anywhere I go my head is on a pivot, I am checking for exits, I see who is walking around and asses how much of a threat everyone is based just off of looks and actions. It doesn't matter who you are, if you are in my general vicinity, I have assessed how much of a threat you are to me. It was very exhausting when I first started doing this, but now it is second nature. Agreed. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/19/2016 11:00:09 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Agreed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By mysticookiebear:
I agree that one of the key things in general is situational awareness. Anywhere I go my head is on a pivot, I am checking for exits, I see who is walking around and asses how much of a threat everyone is based just off of looks and actions. It doesn't matter who you are, if you are in my general vicinity, I have assessed how much of a threat you are to me. It was very exhausting when I first started doing this, but now it is second nature. Agreed. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/25/2016 9:59:19 PM EDT
[#49]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/26/2016 3:07:05 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IronKnight:
Thread necromancer. http://www.breachbangclear.com/vehicle-cqb-disputations/ Tag for reading! |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
